I dont see how this could work. The compys and stoners would be bombing the chariots/slingers before they even get in range. You see, here is one of the reasons the ST/Compy combo is effective...

They are both slow units. Now, a slinger and a chariot...well the chariot is faster, so the chariot will be at the compys trying to attack, and the compys will probably chew them up, and by the time the slingers get in range a bunch of chariots will be dead, and the player can just aim his stoners at the slingers and splat. It would be tough for the other player to micromanage his chariots to attack STs and slingers to dodge balls, so he would probably have to pick one or the other or else do a crappy job at both.

Basically, this can...sound good on paper, I guess. But I doubt its effectiveness until I see it.

Why is it that everybody seems to be such fans of slingers?
Don't get me wrong slingers are great in tool age. Bust walls, help your axers rush and beats on tool bows... Just don't see why people wanna use that tool unit in bronze and even in iron as mentionned in another post (2 weeks ago)!!!

Why not using charriots and compies? I bet that compies+charriots would do a better job then slinger+charriots. By charriot you mean charriots from stable right? Well compies+ST still rule that matchup like sting said. Compies shoot down the charriots while these attempt to get to the ST while the ST take down the 25hp units. Slingers dont even do that well against compies...

To take care of ST+compies I I think you should either CA+ST or go compies+ST yourself... Try to make more ST this should give you a edge since ST beat on archers... Well ST+compies once in big numbers is really tough to kill unless you use it yourself or you iron and Cats the place up! Going heavy on stable units as soon as you are bronze can kill someone only looking for his slow compies+ST setup coz the devlop time is long...

Local_Yokel was talking about using this as rome aginst composite bowmen/ stone throwers, scince rome lacks archers(but improved bows have uses), just thought i'd mention that

The Chariot/slinger is a defensive combo ment for rome with it's lack of archers to defend against compie/st in bronze. It is A LOT different to play than just grouping two different kinds of units and sending them in.

The slingers, which can be stockpiled from tool if desired, eat any archer up to, but not including, the Iron Age. Their threat in this combo is to destroy the archers, while the chariots go after the st. If the archers concentrate fire on the chariots, the st live but the archers die to the slingers. If they split up archers to chariots and st to slingers, the defensive player (in this case the roman) can simply move the slingers around and the STs have a harder time hitting them beacaus they do not have balistics yet. Also if this happens, the char/sling player has to do lots less micromanagement between his units. He just moves around the slingers and send the chars charging while the comp concentrates fire (usually at one guy at a time) on the any unit leaving his STs (or he could try to manage those in addition to the compies) to blindly try to shot at the slingers. Meanwhile, the roman only has to run his slingers around.

If the comp/st decides to combined attack the slingers, it works the exact opposite for the roman and the same for the comp/st (but he has even a harder time ) See what I mean? This whole post would make more sense if you guys could see it.

This is ment only for rome and is strictly defensive so you don't have to worry about differing speeds between the chars and the slingers all that much. This takes practice (i don't remember how many times i tried this and looked like a retard when i didin't do it right) but i've got it down pretty well and it appears to work about 4/5 the time.

If you want unit ratios it really all depends on what your opponent has so reconissanse is the key. I end up using different numbers every time.

-Local_Yokel

P.S. Slingers are great against compies (even minoans because of that attack/range glitch) but NOBODY should make slingers in iron.

There are only 2 civs that would build a compy/ST army.. and that is Mace or Minoa. Both these civs have great bonuses for these armies. Minoans will kill everything before it is in range. And mace can build a huge ST/compy offense, accompanied by some hoppers that will kill the chartiots in 2 secs So i don't think Rome has much against comps/ST ...

What other civs would build a comp/st combo? I mean i know a lot could, i saw Egypt players doing it, but its rare, and if they do encounter Slinger/chariots they can easily counter it...

First of all compie/ST is a devestating bronze combo. Many players, myself included use it commonly as Phoe. Even as Phoe the benefit of compie/ST is that it saves a ton of wood over CA/ST. Phoe's woodchopping bonus is not as impressive vs other civs on a percentage basis in bronze as it is in stone. Thus one can run short of wood even as Phoe when using CA/ST. None of this means that I won't use CA/ST with Phoe, however, but I find myself using comp/ST quite alot in cases where I am not simply continually raiding someone from early bronze w/mounted units. If I am building up a large mid/late bronze army as Phoe it is likely to be compie/ST now.

As Yam I have seen players do the same thing and even as Palmy. With egypt .. that chariot bonus is simply too strong and don't expect me to use comp/ST.. as with yam.. those ST don't upgrade in Iron to cats. I also do it quite often when I get bab, which being a low civ, I am not likely to be early bronze rushing anyone decent.

Comp/ST dies horribly to cats' area damage as we all have seen.

Back to the initial question about using slinger/chariots as Rome vs comp/ST.. I ran a bunch of tests in the SB and found it quite effective.. to have 20 slingers and 10 chariots vs 15 comps and 5 ST's.. The slings/char often won the battle even though the comps were Mino in some cases and always the slingers started just outside the comps range and took many arrows approaching. It's really imprtant to kill most of the comps quickly because then the ST are in big trouble.A key is not to rush the chariots in without slingers as they gey hurt before the slingers start hitting the comps.

Everything in my tests had only the tool age upgrades so the slings had +1 atk and range but not the expensive bronze shield.

Slingers die horribly to cav and don't like chariots or camels either. I added 3 cav per side and that came reasonably close to balancing out the battles as the comps shoot up the cav while the other sides cav hurt slingers and/or whack chariots that get on the ST's.

So, yes ,the combo is effective if you clearly out number the comps/ST. However, it isn't overwhelming as sometimes I lost. I also varied which side the computer played as well as how much management I did.

However, should you do it in a real game ?? It takes alot of food to make and those slingers are dead meat to anything other than archers and there're worth about 2 cents on the dollar in iron. It may get you thru bronze.. but there likely may be better ways that make more sence as far as the entire game is concerned.

Also a smart Minoan makes several camels vs Rome. Camels don't like good archers and Rome can make only imps. Rome's cav or char don't like fighting camels. If the Minoan has a few camels you'll find this less effective.

I have found recently that the more ST I make in bronze, the better I do as long as I have them reasonably guarded. One ST shot kills one comp and two rocks kill a CA. As Sebsoft said, I believe,a good defence is simply to have a couple more ST than he has. The roman can also have a few chariots around just out of range of comp fire to deal with any charging camels or cav. Roman swordies are great at that too. The key point is not to go charging willy-nilly into 15 minocomps w/just a few swordies or chariots. Kill some comps w/your ST's and then you can charge at the enemy ST's.

While your idea certainly has merit.. I personally,would probably make something other than slingers with all that food if my only use for them was mid/late bronze defence.

...neilkaz...

[This message has been edited by neilkaz (edited 08-28-99).]

Of course camels or hoppers can screw this over. It is simply against a pure comp/st. We can sit here forever and
get on everybodys case about what beats what. When offense units change, so will the units to defend against them. Simply an alternative to Rome's crappy bronze. The best bet to get around this, however, is simply to boom right to Iron. Compie/st does shat to 15-tile thick walls

Of course a Roman will usually lose to a comperable Minoan
in bronze if both players can adapt and counter the crup out of eachother. All the differances in this game, and hopefully the "improved" ones in AoK, is what makes it so fun.

-Local_Yokel

Thanks all for the feedback. Especially Local_Yokel for coming in there and explaining the strat a little.

In a general response, I wasn't trying to claim this as a wonder strategy, but simply an alternative to a highly used combo. I would say that if a gaming night for me doesn't go by without me getting hit by a compie/ST army, so I like to think of ways to defend against it.

I also think a big bonus to this for a civ like Rome is that it will probably be unexpected to most players. They will come up and say "Slingers??, is this a joke? Since everyone tries to combat compie/ST armies with more compies & ST. It is also a big benefit as a DEFENSIVE strategy because you can build up a small slinger gathering slowly and not have to commit a large amount of food at once.

Is it a wonder strategy? No. Is it something worth considering? Considering the number of times you will have to face compie/ST armies, I would say this is a nice weapon to keep in your arsenal. It is gold free and if you are planning on going Iron and pumping heavy seige you will be glad you kept that gold around.

So thank Local_Yokel for tipping me off to it, now I just gotta practice with it so I can make it effective.

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well...
compies and sts are a great combo.
tha st weekness is the Cav, or any stable unit.
and tha compies weekness is aslo Cavs( to a lesser extent) and STs but slingers dont have much chance v masses of compies.

and being tha fact that this is in bronze age, i would sugest a combo of sts and cavs (pre. hittite or yamato )
and have the cavs behind the st.
this causes tha st to start attackin tha archers an buyin u time to move your cavs in an attack tha sts

because tha enemy automatically starts to make his archers run an have his sts move in an try to take out ur sts( most of tha time unless a real expert) and by waitin fo tha archers to flee or attack the sts enable you to get your cavs to the enemy sts with least amount of casualties.

well dat be my 2 centz from some part of dis brain

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