Settings always play a part in how efficient units are. But from what I saw Methos was hurting before the compies got to him both times. By falling behind any unit can look powerful. To me the archer slinger combo won it from what I read in the post game report. Hell, Bronze and Iron were just 'Courtesy Ages' in the tourney finals with how much went down in Tool. I cant comment on those games too much, but I know from mu experience in AoE/RoR that Non-Minoan Compies have never benn a factor in any of my games.

Well, since I was there, and you were not, I can only think you might be willing to listen to the mild ramblings of someone who has a little more information than you do.

The fact is, only two games were decided in tool, the second Methos/seasian game and the final Matty/seasian game. (The final match was anti-climatic since the map was HORRIBLY unfair - we knew who the winner was going to be less than one minute after starting.)

In games that are very evenly matched, cost-effective use of resources MAY become a major factor. I say may, because tactical considerations, differences in economy or map luck play a considerable role. Compies are more cost-effective than chariot archers, pound for pound, when you only look at hit points and attack damage. In some cases, (see my posts in other thread for specific, detailed examples) you can use compies just as well as chariot archers and at a lower cost.

The key here is to know when. The only reason I am posting (and the reason I maintained a site for so long) is to try and help players who desire to learn more aboutthe game. I try and learn, too; I do not know everything. (Ender does, so I am always sure to read his posts!)

Just becuase compies have not been a factor is meaningless; you probabaly either play players much better than you and lose to chariots/camels, players much worse than you who you beat with the same thing, or evenly matched players where neither one of you is flexible enough to react.

When you learn how BEST to employ units, and understand when they are appropriate and when they are NOT appropriate, then you will begin to move to the next level.

An example of this is a game I had with maimin_matty: large, continental. We were both shang and had the option to build both chariots and compies. I attacked him early and got him on the ropes, but his better micromanagement skills helped him turn the game around because he pumped out more chariot archers than I could. I was well defended though and his army had to stop to bang on my walls. Here is where the compies come to life - on defense in tight spaces.

My copmies, while never massed, kept his army back in a cost-effective manner, allowing me to spend the wood on the sea, which I won, and to iron first. Iron allowed me to make horse archers, which finally pushed his troops back and won the game.

Gee, a bit touchy here maybe? Yes, you were there, and Im sure you think that Compies may have been the turning point of the game. And of course there is nothing I can say because I did not watch the games. But selective memory can play a large part in discussions. Im not saying that you are purposely leaving out info, but I may notice something in those battles that you would not, and vice versa. This would lead to a better discussion. Instead, lets move into equal playing feilds. And lets not lean towards one anothers playing skills please. I feel I am very flexible. Since you have never played me, I dont think you could disagree (or agree.)

Now, Compies may have their place in the game, but IMO it is much too limited. Im not sure if you read the entire thread that originally discussed this, but I will bring some of my reasons up again.

Research time too long and too expensive. Most likely both civs will get the wheel. That means you have to research two additional techs solely for one military unit. I should be able to get to you sooner, faster, and chase you better with CA, Cav, Camels, or Chariots.

They become obselete faster then any other unit (except maybe swordsmen, which are obselete from the beginning of Tool .) These units get crushed so quickly in Iron its pitiful. If your playing a no Iron game, well, this is one of those rare settings where I think Compies are great.

Even in Bronze I think their time is limited. They must outnumber their opponents. Even CA because CA will not (or should not) fight Compies in a battle which they will lose. The CA can simply back away and regroup. Compies have no choice to fight or run. Their choices are fight or suffer major back pains. CA and almost all other bronze units are also much better Peon killers.
I could go on but right now Im pressed for time (at work) so I will come bck after I see some more posts. Just remember, we are not talking Minoan Compies people. Out4Blood, from what I have heard, you seem to be a great player (I could be wrong ,) so I am interested in your comments. But no need to get touchy here.

[This message has been edited by postapokalyptic (edited 12-15-98).]

"compies are the LAW"

one of my favourite sayings, mind you i go quiet when cats show up , if they show up . So lets leave cats out of it. Because compies reach critical mass over a small area of tiles, they are little balls of destruction. Non minoa compies are still law-bringers. Ok so they dont get +2 range, granted, but nether-the-less.

Oh the destruction raught with yamato/shang/phoenician comps on mediterranean. Post i assume your arguement is based on 1on1's? you say that the rush will defeat the composite player. Walls? dock blocking? being crippled by a tool rush? if a composite player does none of that then its his own fault for falling to a bronze rush.

As methos mentioned in his power up guide, composites are ideal for the boomer. They are food expensive and allow the wood to be spent on a navy and stone throwers.

The composite's ball of power is its own undo-ing in the end. A single cat shot into the heart of some comps totally guts them.

[This message has been edited by AE Kosh3 (edited 12-16-98).]

I agree with you blood. None of the tournament games that ended in bronze reached the point that I call late bronze where compies are obsolete. In fact in 1v1 games it doesn't happen as much. My main point was that there is a point in bronze where you have such a strong economy that composite bowmen because a useless unit. If I reach about 50 villagers composite bowmen aren't going to be able to hurt me, since I can build 3 or 4 siege shops and keep stone throwers pumping all day.

Composite bowmen vs chariot archers when resources are tight is a winning battle for composite bowmen every time.

As for comps being useless in iron, that is only true if you have a strong economy and your iron, or you get catapults. Against civs with bad siege like egypt comps can be used all day.

(Pssst... Ender, I think we're preaching to the choir.... only half the choir would rather argue than listen...)

$.02 from the average aoe/ror world

One thing about those of us that like compies is that we've had success with them. We don't like them for no reason.

Are they the best vill killer? No, obviously. But don't underestimate their rof and ease of focusing a group of compies' fire. If you're not prepared, you can lose quite a few vills to a group of compies.

Do they die to st's? Surely. But every unit has a weakness. You have to make sure you don't get a large group of compies in the way of a bunch of st's. And they are surprisingly easy to "dance" with. I've killed many st's (even hittite) with compies by dancing the compies.

The big question in my mind about compies is "does the low cost/fast build time overcome their major weakness (slow unit)?" Honestly, if I have ca's and compies available, I build ca's. But Minoa is still my favorite civ.

A caveat: most of what I've written doesn't apply to players like posty, ender and out4blood. They are too good to let compies be a deciding factor in a game, imho. But in the games I'm ususally involved in (players maybe a step below these guys and only team games), compies can be a damn good bronze unit. And they may be the best Bronze unit in Iron where, imho, they can still be effective..particularly fully upgraded minoan compies.

MR

I've had real bad experiences lately with scyths against Minoan compies. In fact it was a waste of resourses completely. Playing Phoeny, I had to go with 10 war elephants to kill off 30 minoan compies. I only lost 2 elphants with half the others significantly damaged. Even STs with engineering didn't live long enough to do much damage. Sending in 3 WEs with 8 scyths and 2 STs was a total waste. I lost everything and only killed a few compies. That was with bronze shield and eventaully tower shield later in the game for the scyths.

The missile shields only add to the armor of infantry units. They won't help scythes at all. Scythes should really eat up compies though, just not if its 25 compies to 8 scythes. The trample damage of scythes will allow them to kill massed composites very quickly.

Phoencian are definantly at a disadvantage to minoan in late iron though. A good minoan player will switch to helopolis/cats in iron and wean off of the composites.

A phoencian catapult trireme/land army combo can be pretty effective if there is enough water on the map.

Everything I've seen indicates that massed compies pincushion SC hordes of equal value.

Throw 5 balistas behing em and it gets really ugly against a non-cat civ.

-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

yep, if you want to take out compies with scythes you need to bring in 4 or 5 stone throwers as well. Composite bowmen have to kill the ST first or they are dead, by the time they kill them your scythes are chewing them up for breakfast.

This thread started out about comps being "over-rated". we all know if comps could be researched as fast as the wheel, then comps would rule, if you disagree and since minoan comps are unfair, then play against a shang opponent with babs, he goes comps, you go chariot archers
that would kinda get rid of that pesky time problem for comps...

Ender I have to disagree with you about your 50 peon economy VS a 50 peon economy compy army. IMO, compies will always rule long fought bronze battles. The compy army will replenish itself faster and go iron long before your chariot archer and stone thrower do.

The compy civ could make more comps than your chariot archers and make stonies as well, and still get iron as fast as you, but your army would be losing.....

Dyer

Cats and STs are by no means the only weakness of Compies. Just the unit that makes them obselete. What hurts compies is their initial power and availability. This discussion seems to just be regurgitating the last thread except for some reason people seem to think in equal numbers Compies take down SCs. I dont know why.

D_yer, replies like that one are exactly why i thought compies are overrated, people seem to think its a HUGE economic advantage, its only a small one, and you are using less versatile units so you are probably not getting as much out of each unit as a fast unit army. If people agreed with me I wouldn't think they were overrated anymore, I'd think they were rated exactly how good they are. :-)

Also I've been on both sides of the composite vs chariot archer civ battles and usually the chariot archers mobility wins the war, the composite bowmen can only win the battles.

Emowilli

Thanks for the info on the shields. I was desperate at the time and didn't remember that.

I assumed Scythes would chew up compies too. But in 2 different games I've been forced to oppose compies with scythes and lost all such battles miserable. You can't always set up real-time battles the way you would a scenario, but I have used a several more than 8 scythes against 15 to 20 compies and lost. The time I'm thinking of the compies were spread out a little and managed beautifully. Many of the scythes never even made it to the compies.

I'm certainly no expert on compies, but I sure hate seeing a horde of them at the edge of my gates.

Jehu

[This message has been edited by Jehu (edited 12-16-98).]

Jehu, maybe your Scythe Chariots were forced (by terrain or buildings) to queue up on approach... This would make the missile units' life so much easier!
Overall, back to the main topic, I also think that Composites are overrated.
My reasons:
I've lost more games to CA than I can remember - immediately!
The games I lost vs. Composites were by attrition - indeed I managed to run away and survive many.
When I'm the one to use Composites, either I am not much harassed before I can get them (well, a bit, but without compromising their production, which, in turn, turn the tide) or I simply fail to get them in time.
Or the position is not good enough to wall properly...
I have seen that you do need a combination of factors that helps you with getting them before you are ... er, crippled.
This means:
Out4blood, Ender, Methos, my cousin and all the fast-wise-guys out there can win with Compies. For slow-me they are just another nail in my (announced) coffin.
My idea is that Compies are ONLY viable for people that have not YET been crippled by an attack when they get them.
The reasons could depend on own player (he's faster, period), on the map (favourable to boom / "power-up"), or on the opponent (did not bother you enough in due time).
But, clearly, you MUST be in reasonable economic and demographic shape to get them.
Now, about getting the enemy.
In a 1x1, I think that CA are more popular not only because they are adept at killing peons, but also because they have two other fine functions, that people do enjoy, for they kind of dispense with forward building and the preliminary (and hard to manage) peon scouting:
CA are great Scouts, able to defend themselves.
CA are as fast as Cav, so, location of Archery Range not that critical.
If you are capitalising on Wood mainly and are really short of gold, Ca look also more attractive.
Anyway, the reasons to prefer CA to Composites look to me as credible enough.
The reasons to opt for Composites do require, IMO, a combination of factors that is hard to achieve for many players (some speed, opponents not that fast, favourable map, etc.).
When those conditions are met, I think that Metho's idea is perhaps the most adequate.
But he, I know my limits.
Your_Slow_Friend
(hehe)

[This message has been edited by Your_Old_Friend (edited 12-16-98).]

does anyone actually use compies alone? i dont know anyone that does. When i use them they get a full compliment of stone throwers and cav.

Ender: I think that comps are a HUGE economical unit. just think, for every 4 chariot archers you build, you could've built a Stone thrower and a farm. Now a comp army doesn't need to make that many stonies.

Let say you have 40 working peons, no fishing boats. IMO, you would have to have close to 20(maybe more) cutting wood and 10 on food and 10(maybe less) on gold to to be able to produce an army and be able to iron. IMO, over 15 on food and about 12(probably less) on gold with 13 on wood for a compy army would get you iron MUCH sooner. And IMO produce an army to kill chariot archer based armies.

I think if both civs are walled in well comps even have a bigger advantage becasue then it become pure military, the compys just eat away at the chariot archers until it has destroyed the majority ranges and can then tear the wall down and clean house.

One thing for sure though, chariot archers are not a pityful unit, they are damn good by all means, the best bronze age villager killer, undisputed. So if you are already engaged in a heavy chariot archer army. I'd say it would be becasue of the very different resource management, it would be foolish to try to change to compy based army.

It's not that comps are ALOT better than chariot archers, it's just that the resource management is alot different and that plus the time of the upgrade just to makes comps. oddly enough this 2 factors combined, makes comps inefficent if you already have Chariot archers

Dyer

[This message has been edited by D_yerMak_er (edited 12-16-98).]

yes Dyer I agree with you there, but my statment was that late in bronze, when I'm usually at 50-70 villagers comps become obsolete. At this point in the game I have 30-40 wood cutters with both wood upgrades. Also remember that gold is finite and its gathered slower than wood. According to testing assuming a 2 tile walking distance and taking cutting of trees into account wood is gathered at the same rate as gold, add in my extra .2 units/second from the second upgrade. That means each 10 guys I have on wood brings in 2 more wood a second than your 10 gold miners. After 1 minute this is 120 wood per 10 guys, after 5 minutes its 600 wood per 10 guys. So if I have 30 thats 1800 extra wood in 5 minutes. True you won't have 30 guys on gold, but this sort of illustrated how the economic advantage isn't as big as it seems.

Add in the fact that you won't be killing as many villagers, you need a forward base to attack with unless you are right next to the opponent, and you need to build units at home as well and composites aren't looking nearly as effecient as they used to.

As for usefullness of course composite bowmen are less useful than chariot archers, they are more powerful in groups though, I'll give you that one. I think composite bowmen are an even unit with chariot archers, if you can build a forward base and get them early enough they can be powerful, but they certainly have thier weaknesses. Most people think composite bomwne are the best unit in the game in bronze, thats what I disagree with and thats why I say they are overrated. Okay I'll do some work now

Wow, well... i use both, i cant survive not using Chariots or not using Compies, i build all units that i can. ( in diffirent game, with diffirent civs )

But on this topic, i have to go for Compies, They rule over Chariots, I played 2 games with really good players yesterday (out4blood) and both times my city or my amry suffered terrible loses vs Compies.

And why hasn't Macedonian came up here yet? They have compies, REALLY cheap ST's and nice hoplites, Just mix Compies and ST's and you made yourself a deadly combo, who is gonna go vs Compies now? Other ST's? but they cost twice as much, so Mace can have 2 ST in place of 1 ST. And i just have to brag again here I am yet to get slaughtered in a game where i made a Compy/ST combo, i have gotten killed but never Slaughtered, I even used this Combo in early iron (since my army is undefeatible i almost have this one army all the way through midle Iron) Compies are very good to use, and i like to use them, they only drawback ofcourse is that it takes time to research them.

And about minoan compy's Nineveh is right, if you already have yourself Scythe and Ele's you think Minoa will still be building Comp's? NO! by the time you get Scythe, Minoan player may be able to get Hele's, and back up his Compies, Scyther and Ele's will die to that, I know you have seen how deadly 10 hele's can be, not to mention if they are mixed in with Compies. (old compies, maybe from the first army)

FanatiC KaBaN

[This message has been edited by FanatiC KaBaN (edited 12-17-98).]

Compies are Awasome...Just tellin ya now. Sure they take the tiem to research, but hell so do swordsemn(who i find incredible useful) If ya don't wanna waste res on St's that get boned, clubbed, or axed to death than research Swordsmen. BS's can rip up building sin short orde, freeing your comie sor Cavs to do what they do best, Hunt! I once said my best Choson army was HA's and "phracts(or HCavs). the fast mobile guys find enemy buildings and Villies and anilate the vills. then i send 2 or so Vills to buidl a couple Raxxes near enemy buildings. BAM! i throw out tons of Legiosn who chop that base to fine meal. i recolonize if its by a Resource rich spot. Otherwise i pack up and mov eoff.