Hey Ace:

I consider myself an "expert" at defending against Tool attacks.

Here are a few pointers that I use to defeat Tool attacks:

1) Be willing to commit early to Tool defenses. I mean if you see that your opponent has Tooled and/or has military high, spend some resources fast and get a military going.

2) Good rushers always get forward buildings in your land early, so walling is typically not even an option. Instead, know what the best defensive Tool units are -- Bowmen and a Watch Tower.

3) If you are still in Stone and you see Clubbers coming your way, go bone them with 5-6 villagers per clubber before the clubbers upgrade to axers with armor.

Common Tool attack units are a handful axers or a few Scouts. If you have 2-3 Archery Ranges near your woodies you will be able to defend well. Place a Watch Tower in the middle of the woodies.

This investment will take 300-450 wood for ranges, 100 food for Bowman Armor, and 50 food for the Watch Tower upgrade. Then spend the 150 stone you start with for the tower, and make 6 bowmen immediately. The Bowmen will cost 240 food and 120 wood. This TTL initial investment costs 390 food, 420-570 wood, and 150 stone. Keep making Bowmen in all ranges until you have defeated the Tool army and have your Bowmen at their military buildings killing whatever comes out.

What this defensive strategy will force your opponent to do is either stop the attack and lick his wounds, or do the stone mining upgrade and come at your Bowmen with lots of Slingers. Either way this cost should keep him in the Tool Age.

Make villagers during all of this and have them start farming. Build a strong economy and maintain a strong force of bowmen. If your opponent starts making slingers, do the stone mining upgrade, put 5 villagers on stone, and start making slingers yourself.

Have a big enough group of Bowmen/Slingers that even if he Bronzes a little faster, you can stop initial Cavalry. Once you Bronze you should have a stronger economy and be able to get an easy upper hand.

Hope this helps.

I disagree.

LOL

That is it? A simple "I disagree".

That isn't the wedsaz I know!

Hehe, ok then I'll explain in more detail.
 
First off, I would say that the best defense mechanisms depend heavily on the strat you use, as well as what you expect the opponent to be doing. If you tool in 11 mins, I agree with what BlitzkreigComin said except for stopping initial cavalry, and how to counter slingers. With the amount of resources you'd need to spend on bowmen, you'd be better off bronzing; slingers would be totally useless vs cavs, unless behind a triple-thickness wall. Slingers vs slingers doesn't sound like a good plan, he can just ignore your slingers and go for your villies while producing some axers.
 
Now, some old tricks from when people tooled in 9 mins or less:
1. the House Wall - Houses being available in the stone age, it's possible to enclose your woodcutting operation with them. This can help protect your woodies from clubber/axer, scout and cavalry attacks, but not for very long. Your could reinforce it with a real stone wall in tool, but that still wouldn't protect your woodies against bowmen and slingers. Also you can use the extra time this gives you to build an (appropriate) army a short distance away, and push the invaders back out of your town. Added bonus: you have to build houses anyway, right?
2. the Great Wall - Walling around your territory can help a great deal, even in bronze sometimes. If an enemy builder gets in somehow, killing him should be a priority - it will be difficult for the opponent to bring in another, giving you more time to clean up any mess he left. The problems here are that it requires some villie power to build, mining some more stone if the initial supply isn't sufficient, and can't be done until you tool.
3. the Dock Block - An old favorite of mine. Usually the passes can be blocked with one or two docks each early in the stone age, preventing enemy forwards from walking across. Again if one does get in, kill him and it'll be hard to bring in another. As an added bonus, you can use these docks to fish, and move the FBs over to more strategically placed docks as the fish run out.
4. the Bowmen - I agree with Blitz here, bowmen are usually the best tool defense units, especially if you plan on using archery units in bronze as well.
5. Cowardly Villies - If under attack from a large force of slingers, axers or possibly bowmen, just run. Build a new wood pit a ways further and start chopping again, and try to reach bronze quickly. A small pack of cavs should make short work of his huge waste of resources, and then proceed to go take out *his* villies.
6. Tower Country - Warning: this is an extreme strat, which may be difficult to do correctly. For towers to be truly effective, you need a lot of them spaced about 4-5 tiles apart. Best civs for this would be roman (obviously), choson (surprising how much +2 range helps here), and babs. You'd need to mine a lot of stone, which would slow down your bronze time significantly, with with cho and possibly rome it may be worth it. Massed towers will stop or slow down not only tool armies but CAs, chariots and compies as well. Against chariots, camels, cavs and hoplites, wall or house-wall your villies and watch the hordes of enemy units fall without even getting a single kill. STs should be taken out by axers (or mounted units in bronze), ignoring the rest of the army which is no threat by itself. Once you upgrade to sentry towers, scythes should be no problem either.
7. Naval Regroup - Never fight two enemy warships with ships coming out of your single dock. You'll need 3 to take out those 2, and that's assuming the opponent doesn't bring in reinforcements. You're better off massing a war fleet elsewhere, and coming back with superior numbers. Throwing in some expendable (and cheaper) fishing boats to absorb some damage is nasty, but often effective.
 
That's it for now, hope it helps.

wedsaz:

I don't think that our ideas are that far apart.

There are some good "preventive maintence" tactics to use in Stone that include dock and house blocking.

Towers and Bowmen are the best defense in early Tool.

Typically in games that have shallows players try to get their forwards on "your land" before 5:00. This is done because 5:00 is typically the time players are building their first dock.

House blocking is a nice tactic. A house/dock combo blocking enemy villas far away from your camp works great. What doesn't typically work good is a house wall close to your economy where axers will make quick work of them.

The only thing I would caution players against is fleeing without a fight. It is very hard to win a game after surrendering so much land and time early and giving your opponent that much land without a fight. I don't want to be known as a player that all you have to do is send a handful of Tool units and I'll run.

The "Bronze and all costs" mentality can go both ways. I have had games where I was in trouble in Tool, hit the Bronze button, and had no economy and resources when that great Bronze Age finally came. I've had other games where my Cavalry made quick work of some Axers in my camp. Generally more me it is safer to have a good mass of bowmen/slingers protecting my economy as the Bronze Age warfare begins. With Cavalry's limited LOS they aren't the best villa killers especially with a group of bowmen/slingers constantly attacking them. It is Compies, Chariot Archers, and Stone Throwers that really make those Bowmen/Slingers obsolete.

Having Scout Ships protect a land economy walled against the sea into a forest is another good technique to save your economy from disaster in Tool Age.

BlitzkreigComin:
1. 5 min shallows race vs Dock Block - Been there, got around that. I hate to mention this, but with the fastboom strat you should generally be building your dock around 3:00...
2. Axers vs House Wall - That's why I said to reinforce it with a stone wall. Also you can repair the houses, and the time the house-wall give you can be enough for your bowmen to get there.
3. Run and Bronze - That's why I said a large force of slingers, bowmen or axers - like a pack of a dozen or more, which 3-4 bowmen would be insufficient to deal with. If they spent their "bronze food" making a huge tool army, you should have those same resources to spend on bronzing first and getting cavs out, so it's best to let them have the land for 2 mins or so and keep your villies. If your economy was spread fairly wide to start with (which is more efficient anyway when you have many villies), you may only have to run one or two groups away and let the others continue working.
4. Compies/CAs/STs vs bowmen/slingers - LOL! A large pack of bowmen/slingers should defeat a small group of bronze archers. Agreed about STs but they're slow to train, expensive, and extremely vulnerable to short-ranged units.
5. Cavs - Throw in a scout for LoS and the horsies turn into lean mean killing machines, a pack (4-5) of them is capable of killing villies by the dozens in a minute. A wall could slow them down long enough to bronze and make camels, but if your opponent already blew his resources on a (now buried) tool army...
6. Shore Defense - Quite right, forgot about that one. You need some scout ships anyway, so you could use the resources you save to bronze and get some cavs out, proceed to teach his villies how to run a marathon...

wedsaz:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel that Cavalry is a good unit once in Bronze against a group of Bowmen/ Slingers?

One thing we haven't mentioed yet is to attack at your opponent's base in Tool also. Even out the battlefield by forcing your opponent to have to protect his economy also. If you become effective in your exploration in Stone Age with your forward builders, the opportunity to Tool attack should always be an option for you.

BlitzkreigComin:
Yes, I feel that cavalry is strong against all tool units especially slingers, if you have 4-5 of them together. While bowmen are probably the most cost-effective tool unit vs cavs, they're still not very good.
 
I've long disagreed with those who say attacking is the best way to defend your town, and will continue to do so. First push out the invaders, then attack. Otherwise it turns into a race of who can kill off the other first, with your opponent having a head start. If on the other hand you kept your villies at home (working instead of exploring), built your military buildings nearby, and fight where you can quickly get reinforcements, then the advantage is yours so long as you can keep him out of your woodies. This I've found to be true time and time again, even though people seem more comfortable with the reverse.
 
Fighting fire with fire is a good way to get burned.

wedsaz:

The reason I ask about Cavalry is because I use Bowmen to protect me in early Bronze against Cavalry. It is one of those "programmed" conditions I have incorporated into my game. "If" I am have enemy Cavalry in my land, "then" I make Bowmen to defend until my archer upgrades are done and/or I have gold to produce them. It seems to always force the opponent to counter with Stone Throwers and buy me the time to get my Bronze Age army on the field.

I never think building military buildings in your opponent's land while resources are scarce and your being attacked in your land is a good idea. What I'm suggesting is getting in the habit of finding the opponent in the Stone Age so you can plan a Tool attack of your own.

If an opponent has military units in your land, you've got to kill them first. Once you have some protection though, getting a handful of Bowmen or Slingers into the middle of your opponents economy can sometimes go undiscovered with all of the sounds of battle at your land. Then you have an opportunity to kill all opponent's villies before your opponent realizes what is going on.

BlitzkreigComin:
It takes cavalry 5 hits to kill a bowman, and 50 in the other direction. Considering the group effect, that means 5 cavs = 20 bowmen. My conclusion from this is that the first wave of cavs can be stopped (at great expense), but the next wave will kill villies unhindered.
 
You'd be better off with a wall, it'll hold the cavs off longer for a much lower cost.
 
I agree, if the situation on your land is under control then a raiding party can be very effective. You should only scout in stone if you plan on attacking in tool however - attacking with cavs/camels or CAs doesn't require forward building.

wedsaz:

Fresh out the Scenerio Editor I confirmed these results:

Cav with 8+2 Attack and 150 H.P. (no Nobility but all Bronze attack and armor upgrades) vs Bowmen with +2 Armor and +1 Range (Tool Archer Armor upgrade and Tool Woodcutting upgrade).

8 Bowmen beat 2 Cav with only losing 5 of their army. If Cav chose to chase villas, 0-2 villas would be lost and no Bowmen.

12 Bowmen beat 4 Cav having 2-3 Bowmen remaining. Once out of 3 tries I was able to defeat 5 Cav with 12 Bowmen. That is a 480 Food and 240 Wood investment that can beat a 280 Food with 320 Gold investment (4 Cav), and lose no villagers in this attack.

I personally will take that trade even if I am in Bronze. 320 gold is a big loss in early Bronze.

12-16 Bowmen can hold off any early Cav/Camel rush.

BlitzkreigComin:
Interesting. I just redid the math for 2 cavs vs 8 bowmen, taking into account the 3 initial volleys: it comes out to 5 bowmen left, one of them damaged. All because of 72 hps off one cav before the battle starts.
 
Want to try cavs vs slingers and axers, see how the ratio is there? If walls and bowmen are the only things stopping cavs, throwing in a few slingers might change everything?

I built a Scenerio map that provides good training to survive a Tool attack. Play it as a Multiplayer map so you can get a bigger pop than 50. You start the game by entering the Tool Age with a handful of Axers going for your woodies. If you follow my lil strat I've mentioned... you'll be fine.

Axer Rush Map

Here is a picture to show you how to set it up:

Screen shot to show how to set up

[This message has been edited by BlitzkreigComin (edited 02-23-2001).]

BlitzkreigComin:
Looking at your screenshot...
 
Is that how you usually place your woodpits?
 
I saw 4 dead axers, 3 dead bowmen, and 3 dead villies... you don't seem to be doing so well. A simple house-wall could have prevented a lot of casualties, and a well-placed wall even better.
 
Based on that screenshot (and assuming you got archer armor), your defenses cost you 420f 610w 150s. The enemy attack cost them 575f 250w (assuming 2 barracks), and killed 3 of your villies...
 
I think I'll stick with the coward's way out against large armies: run away. Just the production of the 3 villies over 3 mins would pay for the lost production of a nice long vacation, and what you didn't spend on those archeries and bowmen would more than make up the cost of a new pit. By running 50 tiles, you lose at most 420w (new pit + lost production - add 120w for every extra pit) while he wasted 575f and 250w (not counting forwards not chopping). Once you bronze you can pick your favorite bronze unit to wipe them out, and then move onto their villagers; they can't run from cavs and CAs.

wedsaz:

I'm not sure if you saw (or understood) everything in the screenshot. I lost 3 vills, hardly no time away from woodpile, killed all enemy war units (8 axers and a Scout), and destroyed all enemy buildings on my land (3 rax and a stable).

You'd consider an enemy killing 3 villagers by spending 575f and 250w, which was actually 675f and 400w (forgot stable/scout) a circumstance that he is doing good and me not so good? I had 20 villagers chopping wood during this. I've lost 3 villagers by Tool Age to lions and gators before -- LOL

If you run away, all that will happen is they will chase you. Why run if you can defeat the army and keep all villagers productive? You can never run in Tool and defeat a good player.

So download my lil map here, sneak to a Windows operated computer and give 'er a try.

I'm beginning to think that there is a fundamental glitch in your thinking that running = finding safety to build up while enemy can't find you. A good rusher that spends his resources on a Tool army isn't gonna sit in your town and shoot/axe at dead wood while your villagers escape unharmed. Walling behind you is impossible with axers and scouts on your tail. You will lose a lot more than 3 villagers choosing to run away. By the time you set up shop again and get villagers working, they will find and kill you. What then? Run again?

I'll make a note that all I have to do to beat wedsaz is send in a couple axers and he'll run. That'll be an easy win. Especially if he doesn't believe in having a forward base to counter attack my economy until he has them built up in his base and sends them across the map. I can't wait. I'm willing to bet that I'll have 80+ villagers before wedsaz decides to start fighting. Hmmm...I don't think even wedsaz can survive that blitzkrieg.

For awhile there I thought wedsaz was making some interesting points...then...I got lost. I honestly do not remember the last "good" opponent I played that ran away in Tool.

It wasn't all that long ago that I followed the "run away and live to fight another day" philosophy. I never had any success with it, not counting SP games. If your enemy has a scout or two anywhere near your econ you're toast if you run. He can follow behind without you even knowing. This I learned from repeatedly getting my ass wooped by Blitz about a year ago. It didn't matter how far I ran...he was there before I had time to get any econ going.

Near the top of this post Blitz says something tha I think is the key to this Tool rush / Tool defense discussion. It was something like, if your opponent Tools early of has the military high, you had better get your dancing shoes on. If I don't feel that I am in danger of being rushed I don't drop the food on Toolies. However I always have a range or two near my woodies. That is just smart play.

The other point that wedsaz lost me on was the attitude that forward building is not important nor scouting in Stone. Forward building is just common sense isn't it. How much longer does it take blind cav to find your enemy's woodies? Isn't knowing where the are before you send your troops off beneficial? A forward finds enemy's town...throws down a couple ranges or stables and wala no wandering in the desert for 40 years.

Maybe I just never fled correctly or maybe I didn't feed my cav their carrots. Wedsaz I ask you now to help me understand just how running away and not attempting to advance upon your enemy's land wins games.

BlitzkreigComin:
Ah! An axer/scout rush isn't the same as an axer rush. All the tool rushes I've seen were uni-dimensional, except for a few slinger-augmented rushes. All I had to go on was your screenshot, and I hadn't seen any scouts on it.
 
Of course you can't run from scout (or scout-augmented) rushes. Axers, bowmen and slinger are slow but scouts can follow you. I guess tool rushers smartened up a bit from the yammy rush vs bowman rush days. I agree, bowmen are a better anti-tool solution if scouts are involved.
 
I think a house-wall might have helped save at least one of those 3 dead villies I saw in the screenshot. A stone wall might have been a better use of stone than that lone tower, too. Slingers can take down towers, and so can massed axers, plus they don't do more damage than a single bowman.
 
"You can never run in tool and defeat a good player." - http://www.gamersx.com/aoe/evolution2.asp
 
Sumerian_Leper:
Forward building is only very important if you rush with slow foot units, be it axers or slingers or bowmen. Scouts, cavs and CAs don't need to be built 5 steps from the enemy villies, so your villies would be better used gathering at home, which can give you an economic edge especially this early in the game.
 
Scouting is good but I find that scouts do a better job of it, and that it's not worth sending villies just for that when they could be at home working. Cavs are far from blind when you add a scout, which I always do when cav rushing.
 
Building defensive military buildings I agree with completely, as well as researching the required techs and having some spare resources available to use those buildings. An army should never be idle however, so I don't train one until the enemy is at my walls (I try to build several, fairly early). if I still have most of my troops after the enemy was flushed out, I moved them on to his town which was (in the old days at least) usually defenseless since he spent everything attacking me while I had my "forwards" chopping.
 
So for a cav rush I'd go something like this: keep everyone at home, build wall ASAP in tool, build defensive barracks+archery near woodies, build 2 stables and research toolworking+cav armor while bronzing, train scout and have him find the enemy woodies (but keep him out of trouble), train 4 cavs (2 from each stable) in bronze and have them join the scout, then swoop down with the power of 4 cavs and the LoS of a scout. After you build your govt center, now is the time to send a few forwards building TCs near every resource along the way and pumping villies like mad.
 

Ahhhh I can see some of the error in your thinking. Outdated strats such as Envelopment were used 3-4 years ago when strategies were originatlly being developed. That article also overstates the power of Cavalry in early Bronze. I understand now where you get some of your ideas.

In this "modern era" of gameplay, players have played this game through all of the strategy cycles. Sure there were times when spreading out could beat an inexperienced Tool rusher. Those Tool rushers couldn't find what they were looking for and it took them out of their gameplan. People that play the "expert" games today on the Zone have lived through those times. Every expert on the Zone has the ability to Tool rush, Bronze rush, boom, etc. They have adapted playing styles that give them very high winning percentages. Players go into games with thousands of games of experience and they don't run and hide.

Trust me, you can't run in Tool and win against a good player.

BlitzkreigComin:
As I said, I didn't know people had *finally* discovered a scout could help fix their axers' blindness.
 
I still think running from axers/bowmen/slingers would be a good idea- *while* your troops are taking them out. The moment your town is reasonably cleared, bring them villies right back. Saving a few villies can make up for many seconds of group productivity lost. Oh the other hand, a few walls can probably achieve the same effect if built early enough.
 
What do you think of my explanation for not forward building in tool? (waiting for multiple TCs so forwards don't have to go idle)

If you run, make a "controlled chaos" scene in your town. Break villagers up into a few groups and waypoint them in a circle back to the woodcamp/protection. Have villagers running, chopping, building, and ultiamtely confuse the opponent. Try to get axers to chop on houses/tc/granary/ anything but villagers until Bowmen get going. Make your opponent micromanage each individual axer. By then you should have forces up to kill the axers. Just don't "concede" your town without a fight. If you can keep your woodies going you can feed the army and win.

As for forward builders, they can be quite busy with housing responsiblities and building barracks/stables/archery ranges/docks/towers/walls. Once you find enemy camp, build miliary buildings and kill their villagers. Doesn't matter what Age you are in.

The problem with having no forward builders is you give your opponent too much time. Their economy and miliary will be huge. They will be doing multiple TC's as well, but they will have their military closer to your economy. You will have to fight in your town, not his.

More importantly, you will have to run through his forward base to kill any of his economy.

Some of his TC's will be built by his forward builders, and he will have a bigger villager force close to your economy as each economy matures. These villagers will build lots of military buildings, towers, and economy buildings. You will find that you have to defeat him in your land and in his to gain any real advantage.

It is just too easy for an opponent to win if you don't have a forward camp and he does (unless you are a great boomer and can out-econ by large proportions).

BlitzkreigComin:
> If you run, make a "controlled chaos" scene in your town.
I agree.
 
> As for forward builders, they can be quite busy with housing
> responsiblities and building barracks/stables/archery
> ranges/docks/towers/walls.
No matter what they do out there, I don't see it helping the econ back home until forwards can help expand by building multiple TCs. Sending them out at all takes away from your home economy, and therefore your defensive power.
 
> unless you are a great boomer and can out-econ by large proportions
I used to be, and the productivity gains from not having a forward base until bronze helped tons.
 
> Their economy and military will be huge.
Mine should be even bigger, because I didn't send my 5th and 6th (or whatever) villagers halfway across the map to sit around or spend resources making duplicate military buildings.
 
> More importantly, you will have to run through
> his forward base to kill any of his economy.
Prevent initial forwads invasion. Kill forwards to prevent construction. Destroy invading army and forward base. You have to destroy his forward base whether you have one or not, else you get mutual destruction (at which point the one with the more helpful ally wins), and the snowball economic effect of keeping your forwards at home an extra 10 mins gives you the edge to win at home where you can prepare defenses (walls, towers, etc), have more builders available and closer to allied support, all of which will help you win that battle faster and easier. Then you've got a huge econ, defenses already built, possibly a ready-trained army, and he's got a bunch of dead forwards and buildings, maybe a housing problem if he built them near you as well. All you have to do is make sure he doesn't get to hit your woodies, which you can do with walls and a bit of military (which you'd build anyway if you were attacking).
 
If he keeps pumping out axers to fight your bowmen, all the better - you get to kill his econ without leaving the comfort of your town.

wedsaz:

Doesn't an Axer and Slinger walk at about the same rate as a peep in Tool? So you comit to flee...you split your woodies into a couple groups to force your attacker to make a choice...he follows group number one...you end up losing 50% of your wood econ...thus you are unable to keep up in a naval battle on water maps. We know from past posts that you do not build a navy early. So how do you do it? I am reading what you are typing I just can't process it...you know. You lose the sea which means your food production is hindered greatly...you have half of the woodies you had 2 minutes ago...yet you are training a Scout and building stables as if all is well.

Did you win all of your games only after you were on the verge of being totally wiped out. Believe me, I am not even an average Tool rusher, however I have played against some good ones. In todays play I do not think running is the answer.

Blitz:

Good point about having to run Calvary through enemy's forward building and military. Or stopping and fighting there. Which we know has to happen. I don't see how a guy pulls off a win here.

wedsaz:

My forward builders are typically vills 10 & 11. They build the first dock at 5:00, and proceed to build docks along coast towards opponent and are responsible for housing. I don't think it would benefit me to have them return to my camp around 9:00 to build defensive buildings. I would rather have them explore and find enemy's economy. I would much rather have my barracks by my opponent's woodies than my woodies.

It sounds like you prefer a strong economy over a smaller "rush" economy. You prefer to wait to overpower opponents in Bronze and Iron due to superior economy. That is what my basic gameplan shell started out as.

What you will find when you re-enter Zone play is players are willing to sacrifice early Bronze archers to kill your economy. If you plan on defending rather than being offensive from a forward base, plan on losing several villagers each opponent wave. They will run past your defense and get in the middle of your woodies. Meanwhile your opponent's economy will go unharmed giving him the stronger economy.

When you grow your economy it will more than likely be all on "your" part of the map and that isn't usually the smartest gameplay. If your not careful your opponent will take 75% of the map leaving you not good odds of winning. Then in Bronze you will be noticing what the map is like if it is Bronze archers that are the first units to explore land not considered yours.

I'd counsel anyone starting play on the Zone to always have forward builders in Stone Age on all map types and all map settings. It is smart fundamental play. Playing defensive against "expert" players is a guaranteed defeat if they have a stronger economy, and experts will usually produce stonger economies than you -- that is what makes them experts. They have the luxury of sitting back and letting the game come to them. Having said that, they never will because they will find you in the Stone Age and won't let any pressure off of you until the game is over.

Sumerian_Leper:
> Doesn't an Axer and Slinger walk at about the same rate
> as a peep in tool?
Yes, and I'm not quite sure how the "flee+spread" experts (http://www.gamersx.com/aoe/evolution2.asp) did it exactly. My best guess would be to keep splitting the group being followed into 3-4 until the enemy army is following a single villie. By then the rest of your villies should be hard at work again, and whatever plan you had for actually killing those enemy units may be in place (be it a navy "trap" near a shore, a pack of bowmen, cavs, or whatever).
 
> you do not build a navy early
That depends on the strat. I usually try to do one strat at a time, preferably one that counters my opponent's, and do it as optimally as possible which means not doing things that aren't essential. If most of the people on the zone use the same strat (or small variations thereof), it's fairly easy to find a counter-strat that works in almost every game.
 
> Did you win all of your games only after you were
> on the verge of being totally wiped out?
Depends who you ask I guess. I won a lot of my games at the very moment where opponents thought I was on the verge of being totally wiped out because they were near my town with CAs, but won because those CAs were fighting compies and dying by the dozen. By the time my opponent realized he was running low on resources while most of my original batch of compies were still standing, I was the one calmly marching into his town while he had nothing left to defend with, and didn't know how to defend since he was so used to rushing. The same can be done against any strat so long as the one using it is sufficiently convinced that he's invincible (aka complacent).
 
> In todays play I do not think running is the answer.
If it were only an axer/bowman/slinger rush I would disagree, however if scouts are commonly involved then I agree wholeheartedly. I can see a few interesting alternatives to fighting fire with fire, but I can't guarantee anything until I try them myself, and I haven't a clue when that will be. I'm pretty sure tooling about 3 mins earlier would be part of the solution though.

> My forward builders are typically vills 10 & 11.
> They build the first dock at 5:00, and proceed
> to build docks along coast towards opponent and
> are responsible for housing. I don't think it would
> benefit me to have them return to my camp around
> 9:00 to build defensive buildings. I would rather
> have them explore and find enemy's economy. I would
> much rather have my barracks by my opponent's
> woodies than my woodies.

You'd rather have your opponent's barracks
by your woodies than your own?

That's the tradeoff I see.

> It sounds like you prefer a strong economy over
> a smaller "rush" economy. You prefer to wait
> to overpower opponents in Bronze and Iron due
> to superior economy. That is what my basic
> gameplan shell started out as.

I prefer not fighting fire with fire;
tooling in 8 instead of in 11 and bronzing
in 12 instead of 16; having a pit start
and 2/3rds FBs econ when my opponents
think berries are everything, and a totally
land econ when they can't imagine not fishing.

I prefer doing whatever my opponent
can't imagine I would do, because that's
what he's not ready for.

That served me well in the past, I expect
it will continue to do so if I stay a step
ahead of my opponents conceptually by
analyzing their strats to find their flaws
while they remain confident in their
invincibility.

> What you will find when you re-enter Zone play
> is players are willing to sacrifice early
> Bronze archers to kill your economy. If you
> plan on defending rather than being offensive
> from a forward base, plan on losing several
> villagers each opponent wave. They will run
> past your defense and get in the middle of your
> woodies. Meanwhile your opponent's economy
> will go unharmed giving him the stronger economy.

That sounds familiar... oh yes, CA rush.
Been there, beat that. He wastes his economy
without losing villagers, and without me
having to walk across the map to do it;
by the time I attack his town, I already won.

> When you grow your economy it will more than likely
> be all on "your" part of the map and that isn't
> usually the smartest gameplay. If your not careful
> your opponent will take 75% of the map leaving you
> not good odds of winning. Then in Bronze you will
> be noticing what the map is like if it is Bronze
> archers that are the first units to explore land
> not considered yours.

Won attrition wars with less.

If he's gathering over 75% of the map while
I conserve 25%, not only does he have to defend
3x as much land, but he's also more likely
to throw resources out the window doing so
since he thinks he can afford it.

I've discovered that the better the rusher is,
the more vulnerable he is to attrition warfare;
the smaller territory you can beat him with,
so long as you don't fight fire with fire.

> I'd counsel anyone starting play on the Zone
> to always have forward builders in Stone Age
> on all map types and all map settings. It is
> smart fundamental play. Playing defensive
> against "expert" players is a guaranteed defeat
> if they have a stronger economy, and experts
> will usually produce stonger economies than
> you -- that is what makes them experts. They
> have the luxury of sitting back and letting
> the game come to them. Having said that, they
> never will because they will find you in
> the Stone Age and won't let any pressure off
> of you until the game is over.

... and I'd tell them to avoid fighting
experts in their zones of expertise except
as a learning excercise, instead concentrating
on finding new strategies where no-one has
any experience and where their lack of bias
will advantage them, and adapting old "obsolete"
strategies where again their lack of bias
will help them try solutions that "experts"
wouldn't believe possible.

Fighting unit for unit against an expert
with a stronger economy is a sure way
to lose consistantly. Learning to build
an even stronger economy to beat them
at their own tricks means hundreds if not
thousands of defeats before victory starts
to show itself, because that's how many games
many of those experts spent perfecting
their standard strategy. Beat the strategy,
and most of their experience goes down
the drain; even, it might hinder their search
for a new strategy to beat yours, since
they're still thinking in terms of their
old strat.