I only agree with the trading unit idea.

No. Those suggestions would make the game a lot less balanced that it is.

- The Tool age suggestions would make towers obsolete from the Tool Age.
- Are you aware that cavs are much more expensive than chariots? They deserve a real bonus.
- ST's will go obsolete by that too.
- Ele archers would be much too strong with that - don't forget that units are balanced in a curious way: speed, hit points and damage work together here.

Some civs were designed to be played in RM, some in DM. That allows for varied games - archer wars, infantry wars, naval wars, etc. Too much balancing can be detrimental for variation.

Yes. Make farms worth while. It's crazy that you can get away with not building farms at all in a game. Increase gathering rate, and make farms last longer.

Anyone can making a "x-pack builder" utility to satisfy everybody here plz????????? (It's a suggest)

peter:

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Towers are already obsolete from the tool age because of slingers.

I'm talking about a siegecraft bonus small enough to not matter on 2-3 villies, but enough to make 10+ villies able to stop a tower rush.

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Yes I am. Cavs can never be cost-effective infantry killers, but chariots can.

Giving cavs +2 shield makes them archer killers instead, something slingers fail to do.

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I doubt it. Their (large) siegecraft bonus would be unaffected, and even 25 area damage is serious stuff.

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Also don't forget cost, training time, and vulnerability to priests.

Most experts will tell you ele archers are useless.

You can get at least 4 legions for the price of one ele archer. That's 14x4=56 damage and 160x4=640 hps.

They need more damage.

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That's why I don't give compies to greek, or eles to yammy. It's better to build on their existing strengths, or give them a combo nobody else has.

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Yes. Make farms worth while. It's crazy that you can get away with not building farms at all in a game. Increase gathering rate, and make farms last longer.
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Longer production doesn't help until the farm runs out, which is over 6 minutes later... the game is usually decided by then anyway.

Faster production is worth the upgrade if you have enough farms, which on a land map you will.

From experience, the ONLY modificatiuons I would make to AoE/RoR would be:

1) Better farms: improved gathering rate, by some 25 to 50% - you end up tying a pop slot to that forever, so you deserve to see your investment returned.
This would also make the "land" option viable in a water map (like Medit) where today those who control the sea win the game. This would really allow for a choice sea/land in these "mixed maps" - lots of water but sizable land included. Again, this would also make for worthwile tool rushes!... (farms don't go around, they stay put, right))

2) Slightly more resistant CA, Chariots and Scythes vs. Towers. They die too quickly to Towers nowadays. I'd put a 50% better resistance to tower fire for these units (not any bonus, just a little better stats vs. towers)

3)End of the "fast Villagers" - no more speedy Gonzalez for Assy and Yammy. Less wood bonus food Phoenician, in summary, end of the "un-balancing" economic bonuses that kick in right from Stone age.
With this, all Civs are now playable.

4) Better stats (more upgrades) for Babylonian and Phoenician CA and Chariots/Scythes. The latest upgrades for cavalry are needed, so that their scythes won't suck so much.

5)Heavy cavalry and Cataphracts get a huge bonus resistance vs. Scythes: basically, they don't suffer splash damage -only the unit being attacked takes damage. This is to make Yammy worthwhile, otherwise they fall miserably to wood-only Civs.

6) Ballista/Helepolis : ALL Chariots/Chariot Archers get a huge bonus (in hits) vs. Helepolis. This is to allow Civs without Catapults, like Egyptian and Phoenician to be competitive vs. Civs with Helos.

That's all, these mods would make the game practically equally enjoyablçe with ANY Civ (I think).

They would still retain their strong points - but be more viable inb random Civ games.

Anyone remember this?

Blitz's recipe for perfection:

1) Palmy starts with 300 food.

2) All civs that have only Impies get Compies, Greek too. Makes Choson, Carth, Greek competitive in Bronze.

3) Persian gets either the wheel or artisanship.

4) All civs that don't get Scythe will get Helos and Horse Archers. Scythe is the best Iron unit in the game and gold civs need a little help against them(play me if you don't believe me).

5) Don't screw with anything else.

If we can get these mods sorted why not do them all? We'll have the Blitz mod, the Wise Max mod, the Wedsaz mod etc.

Wise_Max:
I'll just go over your suggestions quickly.

- early farming = berries useless
- CA,chariot,scythe ignore towers = towers useless
- no economic bonuses = military civs dominate
- stronger scythes = this one makes sense
- cavalry bonus vs chariots = not doable
- chariot ignore helos = helos useless

I don't like it.

BlitzkreigComin:
Blitz's recipe for perfection:

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Sadly, I don't think that's in the datafiles.

That's why I opted for 2nd best - 65f villies so they can at least make a 3rd villie on default start.

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They still wouldn't be mino, or shang, or even yammy.

Making bronze infantry competitive would be better imo.

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Artisanship gives them more wood than the wheel, and equal range to other civs in bronze. It would be a *huge* help on the seas.

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greek,mino would get horse archers
persian,yammy would get helos

assy,carth,choson and mace already get both

Somehow I don't think this would fix it.

Now, if we make scythes weaker... I don't remember anyone ever complaining about that. Even cats get more support.

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Not even cataphracts?

Phill Phree:
Yes, certainly.

We can even try variants and see if they do what we want.

I'm sure we're all wrong about one thing or another.

1) That is too bad that you can't adjust Palmy by simply giving them more food. I am afraid that making their villagers 65f would make them "too" strong possibly. They can be competitive in games now if you find your berries fast.

2) Greek/Carth/Choson wouldn't be equal with Mino/Shang/Yammy in Bronze...but they could compete in Bronze with Compies and all three are stronger in Iron. I like that balance.

My overall feeling on Infantry in Bronze Age is it will always be down on the list of units to use, and I am fine with that. Hoppies have their purpose against Cav/Camels (Mace and Carth with Bronze Shield against Archers). Infantry is cheap already and if you change the anything with their HPs/attack/they are out of balance. I would be worried if you removed the initial upgrade --- they would flood opponents too fast and ruin the game balance.

Think about this = you have multiple barracks up in Tool. You start cranking out cheap units fast the moment you Bronze. Game is over right there. They kill axers/slingers -- Cav/Camel too expensive -- Chariot Archers/Compies too late. GG

I admit that Barracks units aren't the greatest in Bronze, but they have their place in Tool and Iron...so I'm fine with it.

I think it takes a lot away from the game if you try to have all civs equal through all Ages. I just wanna tighten up a few gaps without messing with the overall gameflow.

3) I think either market upgrade helps Persia.

4) I wouldn't make Scythe any weaker. They are one of the unique units of the game. I wouldn't wanna just shelf them. I think by offering a few countering options would be better. Scythe can be countered in games now with Helos and Horse Archers.

5) I wouldn't help Cataphract. I might be open to making their upgrade less expensive, but I wouldn't change anything else about them.

Lastly, I wouldn't take any upgrade or unit away from any Civ. Removing Hittite engineering/Mino wheel/Greek Trireme isn't worth it.

The biggest caution I have about any balancing of RoR is ruining it through negating it's "perfect" imbalances.

Stone Age is perfect right now -- except Palmy getting to 7 villagers like the rest of the Civs.

Tool Age is perfect right now -- civs and units are balanced.

Bronze Age is near perfect -- don't change the landscape, just balance with all civs getting either Chariot Archers or Compies. They are the most popular units of the Age. Just let every Civ have them.

Iron Age is near perfect -- Scythe are most popular unit. Don't ruin them, just let every Civ have a great counter to them.

Ok, here's a trimmed down list of changes.

farm upgrades: +0.05f/sec each
villies carry double meat?
add land trade?

remove short sword upgrade (swordsmen and broad sword now require axe)
cav,hcav,ctf: +2 shield
ST,cat,hcat: reduce damage by half
scythes: -2 damage, -1 range

carth: -25% age cost
choson: +50% swordsmen hps
greek: +2 slinger range
palmy: 65f villies
persian: add artisanship
phoenie: +25% woodcutting

Early short swords allow for a rush in early bronze, and upgrading to broadies to keep up the pressure.

Cav shield makes cavs more effective as archer killers.

ST,cat,hcat damage reduction wouldn't affect their siegecraft bonus, but would make them less powerful as field artillery.

Scythes are much too powerful. Reducing their range to the same as war eles and cutting down their damage a bit makes them more appropriate to their cost.

-25% age cost would let carth bronze as fast as shang, maybe fast enough to rush someone.

+50% swordsmen hps lets choson apply its legion bonus to bronze as well. With short swordsmen available immediately in bronze, a sword rush might even work.

+2 slinger range gives greek a better tool rush option, and maybe anti-archer support in bronze for their hoplites.

65f instead of 75f for villies would let palmy squeeze a third villager out of their starting food.

With artisanship, persia can afford what every other civ takes for granted: a navy.

With no military bonuses until iron, econ is all phoenie had until the patch took it away. +25% wood rate should be enough to make phoenie a contender again, without being the powerhouse they once were (+56% wood was wicked).

BlitzkreigComin:

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I'm afraid of that too. At least they couldn't train them any faster than if they find berries right away. It would be wise to try it and find out how much effect it has.

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Compies would help in late bronze but being slow civs their chances of getting there are pretty grim.

Carth is not bad on the offensive, they do have camels and hoplites are hard to stop. -25% age cost would make them fast enough to rush anyone but they'd have to be aggressive to stop the archers from massing.

Choson can nearly hold its own as it is if they tower up and use cavs to take out STs. Getting the same +50% hps on short swords and broadies would give them a chance of reaching iron.

No civ has a slinger bonus, and I think it would look real nice on Greek. They'd have a tool rush option, and could still be of some use in bronze but they'd need hoplites to keep cavs,camels and STs away.

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Short sword only gives +2 damage and +10 hps.

Doesn't anyone wall anymore?

Tool bowmen should be able to slow them down nicely too.

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Yes.

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The wheel has about a 3% econ effect.

Artisanship is more like 20%, and also helps range.

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Helos and HAs cost a ton of gold. How many scythes die for each one you lose?

Towers are the best counter to scythes right now.

Scythes do 10 damage with all upgrades considered. Now add the trample damage, and the +1 range, and massed scythes do more like 30-40 damage each. That's a goldless helo.

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Hittite engineering would let other siege civs have a shot at top spot, but I don't like it much either.

Mino wheel is because it doesn't matter. At all.

Greek's speed bonus would be most useful on fire galleys, which they don't get. Nobody gets both those and cat triremes, so off they go.

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I want apples and oranges, not apples and bad apples.

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Even 6 would be nice.

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Scouts are a bit strong, but otherwise tool is a model to follow.

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Might as well take out the other units if they're not going to be useful.

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They're tough, hit hard, run fast, and cost next to nothing. What would you suggest as a counter?

* modification on some Iron Age units as Cataphract to be worth using.

* -1/3 less cost of Iron Age unit upgrade, Ex: Catapult to HC, Heavy cavalry to Cataphract, Phalanx to Centurion and all the rest...

* Some economic bonus to weaker civs, as fast FB or anything else, etc.

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They're tough, hit hard, run fast, and cost next to nothing. What would you suggest as a counter?

Academy units is one of the best anti-cavalry, isn't it!?

I suggest strongly that every units should be have the same time to be create from their building. Remember how much time it need to see appearing a priest, an academy unit or a siege weapon.
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***As I said, a mod utility or nevermind the name, must be interesting. Really. I think everyone has his point of view on what should be THE best mod for re-balancing the game. A utility like this will be allow to anyone to change tech tree, Units datas, civs datas and others things at his own fantasy. I think WE ALL DESERVE this.

Guys, we could argue about this forever.

I agree the most with the list on Mr. Fixitonline, so if you have to change the game then use that one.

I will probably not download the "patch" though.

As we are not able to agree on one patch, is it possible to make these 'upgrades' easilly removeable in case we wish to revert back to the old settings? How much of the game files are we actually affecting.

And as great as it is to see debates about the game being rekindled, it seems we have two camps: those editting the game and those discussing what to edit. There seems to be little communication up to now between the two groups...

It might be possible to change Palmyran initial food stockpile. It can be done the same as the Shang, I think.

Mero:

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That would be much better than changing their villie cost then.

How about the boomer's special.... a 1200 total pop limit rather than 200 x 6 players. Is that possible? I wanna see my villager highs in the 500's not the 120's.

You could skew the civ bonuses quite a bit if this is the case. Heck, you could make the bonuses quite a bit more diverse than they already are, creating specialised civilizations, a bit like in AoK (brits with archers, teuts with defenses and such), and change the feel of the whole game with just one mod. I'm not talking about balancing, but making a kind of separate set of bonuses which change the usage of players tactics and whatnot.

That'd be neato

The thing I like about this thread is that you guys are learning how hard it is for games to get balance right in the first place

Another thing is this - I read the history section of AoK again recently, and I realized that units were deliberately balanced to match history - for example cavalry are very strong in the castle age, but infantry become very strong in the imperial age. This is because mounted knights were at first very powerful, but later became too expensive to be efficient (as did castles). A unit may be overpowered or underpowered at different times to reflect their historical significance. I still agree though that some units are too useless or useful in AoE - cav are no good in DM, and only Yammy cavalry in a very early bronze are good in RM. Swordsmen are next to useless unless you are using Choson or Rome in a DM.

If we can tinker this much with the game stats why don't we out and out create a new civ with a totally new tech tree and totally new bonuses.

By the way, can you change the technologies, you make them cheaper and tinker with the stats. (First off, boost Bronze Shield, Iron Shield etc to give more pierce armor.)

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Blitz, you're as nutty as ever. I can imagine your 500 Jihad villies wiping every single opponent off the map.

An even nuttier idea: give fishing boats/merchant ships an attack.

Well I never played multiplayer but for me i can say that there are civs i like and those I don't like. This is not because they're too weak or whatever. E.g. I don't like Persians for their slow villies. Simple point. I got used to their nice eles (although i didn't like them either) and theri priests but I will never like this civ.
on the other hand I like Minoans which are considered rather weak except maybe in sea battles.

There are only two things I agree:

- Greek is too weak
- Hittis are too strong

But that's just the game. You can either leave them out or use tactics to balance them.

Richard Ames:

I think the thread heading being 8.0 means that wedsaz and I have debated for six years from 1.0-8.0. Thus the comment about "you guys are learning how hard it is for games to get balance right" was realized long ago.

I don't wanna change the total landscape of the game, but these are changes that would be better for Random Map games on the Zone.

P.S. I post these ideas realizing that it is fantasy only. I will never play any mod sets on the Zone... because I know it is fantasy.

IMO, every civ needs one of three things to compete in RM.
- tool rush bonus (babs,roman,yammy)
- fast economy (assy,mino,shang,roman,yammy)
- overwhelming bronze military (egypt,hittite,mace)

civs lacking these are:
- carth
- choson
- greek
- palmy (with 300f start they'd have a fast bronze)
- persian (fast but needs artisanship for bronze econ)
- phoenie (+56% wood rate was fast, +6% is not)
- sumie (cat bonus is nice, but not overwhelming)

I don't know DM so well, but I'd guess cats or legions or eles, with towers all around?

One big question I got for DMers, any idea how best to tone down siege so it doesn't dominate the battlefield?

CenturionZ_1:

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You can, but shield upgrades don't help until researched.

The problem with DM is that every game is virtually ele rush followed by siege.

If we want to balance the game we need to firstly tone down siege. Therefore I suggest area damage reduced for heavy catapults as well and hit points. (Hittite should only get +50% IMHO). Long Swordsmen need more HP, Academies need to work faster to make them an alternative to elephants. Cataphracts, if given more attack, made much cheaper would be another option.

The problem is the reason elephants are already used as the first rush unit is they only require one upgrade, unlike say hoplites which need two upgrades to reach centurion.

If siege is toned down I feel HA will be used more. I think HAs/CAs should have reduced range and speed to stop them becoming too powerful hit and run units.

My suggestions:

Heavy Catapults have same area damage as Catapults.

Heavy Catapults have 100 HP, Hittite ones have 150. All Catapults have -1 range too.

Long Swordsmen have 120 HP, Choson bonus changed to +40 HP

Cataphract upgrade costs half price. Cataphracts have +6 attack.

All cavalry cost 70F, 40G and have bonus vs. siege.

Academies work faster.

Horse Archers have -1 attack, have speed the same as other cavalry.

A general suggestion: make archers weaker: less range perhaps, less attack and lower rate of fire to make them less dominating.

CenturionZ_1:
Unless we make a separate modpack for DM, some of your changes would hurt RM balance. Cost is a big deal in RM, it's one of the main balance factors there along with when a unit is available.

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I think they already do... but less area damage is good.

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Less hps doesn't matter much if nothing can get close, and less range would make it harder to do their real job - busting towers.

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I was thinking +50% hps on all swordsmen, which would give them something in bronze to go with the towers while legions would still get the same +80 of course. That would be +60 on 120hp long swordmen.

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Yes.

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The cost thing would affect RM in a bad way IMO, cavs would be cheaper than camels and about the same price as academy units.

I think this would be a better role for scythes if we tone them down, or maybe a 'light cavalry' upgrade for scouts available in iron.

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I can go for that.

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Ele archers kill horse archers (by outlasting them) but if they did more damage they might be worth making.

If DM gets its own modpack, how about for civs that have unit cost bonuses apply them to unit training speed instead? Like phoenie eles would need -25% training time, shang villies would need -20% training time, etc. Would that make such RM bonuses more useful in DM?

Shang -20% training time for villies is OK. But Phoenicia's -25% training time for eles is too much. You could outrush anyone with eles by a good minute or so. Too powerful.

-10% is probably better.

wedsaz: The problem is if you tone scythes down, you lose a cheap catapult killer. I think maybe we give cataphracts a siege bonus? And how about just making then 60G? That won't disrupt RM too much will it?

Catapult HP matters a lot. If you have 100 HP, 2 catapult stons will flatten it. I also think ballistas should have 65 HP. That way catapults need two shots. Snipping 1 range of catapults is fine. If you outrange towers its too much of overkill. Even if towers can reach catapults, catapults still tearn them down v. quickly. What about siegecraft villies too?

But in DM, I think EVERY civ should get ballistics. That civ is too important not to have. Denying ballistics renders siege and towers useless. I also believe something shuold be done about naval warfare.

Juggernaughts are the be all and end all of ships. Surely there should be more variety.

The Persians need the wheel.

Maybe this topic should be stickied, or not? But in my opinion the main post has to include all the other players' ideas.

CenturionZ_1:

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If they get ballistics and ballista towers with that they might even be useable.

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They lack chainmail, their eles still have to cross the map, and they don't have much else. But, it makes no difference to RM so it's your call.

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So lower their damage, but give them faster attack. Units with good armour will resist them better, but cats will still die quickly - maybe quicker.

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Doesn't it seems kinda weird?

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At 60f 60g they'd still be cheaper than camels.

How about making siege weapons more expensive?

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I guess cat hps would matter more if something besides other cats could get close enough to damage them. We should reduce hittite's bonus too, double hps is a lot no matter what unit it's on.

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If cats didn't kill helos, what would?

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Removing just the 1 range bonus heavy cats get shouldn't affect RM much, since so few buy that upgrade.

The only superunits I've seen much in RM are scythes, helos, ballista towers, and legions.

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What civs don't get it? Shang, and who else?

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Cat triremes are so fragile, and the juggernaut upgrade so long and expensive, that you hardly ever see them.

How about merging them into a single siege ship, with 160 hp and a single cheaper upgrade?

Blunt Axe:

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Why? They don't get chariots, and it doesn't help their economy. What they need is artisanship so they can afford warboats and buildings.

Mace doesn't have the wheel, but they have artisanship. Every civ has artisanship except persian.

Mero:

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Since we don't all agree, it would have to be separate lists. Those who want their ideas listed, say so and post a short summary of your changes so I can add them.

wedsaz: Juggernaughts in sea DMs will overwhelm any other ship by about 6 minutes. They appear at the same time as Heavy Catapults.

Also Fire Galleys. I say we increase their attack and HP. Perhaps even their speed. Carthage is supposed to be a naval civ, so we ought to give their fire galleys a little boost. Also this allows no Juggernaught/Trieme civs to prosper.

Aoe has some weak points:

- the population limit in single player games: the strange and annoying thing is that you cannot start an reasonable attack but leave simultaneously some troops, e.g. archers, to guard your city. Even in AoK you can hardly use the garrison function.
- the second thing is the domination of archers and siege weapons. Some scenarios of good old school campaigns like "Trojan war" or "rise and fall of the roman empire" can be won by use of groups of let`s say 10 heles. That`s unrealistic and not very historical (of course the use of siege weapons was revolutionary).
- Finally some civs are unbalanced. There`s no doubt hittite are the strongest.

If you have a look at AoK you see that ES noticed that and fixed these "bugs", for example lessened range for most ranged units.
I must admit that I`m just an occasional player, but I wonder if all the changes you suggest really would balance the game. For my friends and me (we play regularly every half year) is that a chance: experienced players take greece while the others play with phoenicians or something like that.

I think only the pop limit should be changed to 200 units and maybe fire rate for ranged units be lowered. That`s enough. The game won`t still be balanced but: life's not fair.

Bye

Cato Maior:

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No matter the pop limit, half your troops is still half your troops.

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You could also have the experts take a good civ but delete their 3 starting villies. I know that's not as much of a handicap as playing greek, but it's something...

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Do you know of a hex editor for it? I've been looking for years but still haven't found one.

a hex editor for it:

Don`t worry about AoE, get out of your cellar. There`s a world beyond AoE.