I thought AOE exsisted only around 3 years. Where did you get 20 from? j/k Anyway, wedaz, I think you should first try a strat before clamining it to be a good one. I think I read somewhere on the forum that you don't even have AOE, well, sorry, but you need the game to compose strats for that game.

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Vladislav
Zone: _Lost_Atlantis_

Hyper:
If yamato doesn't tool before like 10-12 minutes and minoan tools earlier or at the same time, minoan has good odds. It doesn't mean they're sure to win, but there's a very good chance.
 
If the yamato is smart and attacks on the sea before minoan's sea economy can get going (I estimate around 9:00), then the odds are on their side. Again it's not a sure thing, but the chances are very good.
 
What if minoan has a very good walling spot with 2gold mines beside their forest? What if yamato has the forest berries and minoan gets the 6 SF? What if the yamato player falls over from a heart attack? Well, some things you can't plan for.
 
Lotus_Esprit_V8:
I played AoE/RoR online for about 2 years. I tried most of my strats, and many others. I know some think I'm a rook just because I've been away for several months, but 3 years of reading and analyzing strats and stats, and believe it or not, 2 years of experience playing the game on the zone don't fade away so easily. I'm probably not entirely right about everything, but I'm probably right about a lot of things especially those I had much experience with.
 
I have the game, I just can't play it right now. I'll probably be a bit rusty when I can come back, but my knowledge of the game is still there.

Anyway, Yams beats the crap out of a Minos any time of the day.. not even a challenge; why? Minos are never gonna put compies on the field (I'm speaking when the opponents are 2 equal players and that each civs are played correctly...Of course, if the Yams lets the Minos boom to 300 villies, he'll win: but try to boom vs a good player...::: IT'LL SIMPLY NEVER EVER EVER WORK). I usually laugh at someone who's still doing FB while I click brz button for a sub-13 or less and he loses his FB fleet right after ;-) Yams OWNS Minos on sea. Yams OWNS Minos on land (cuz of speed factor).

Yams is the best water civ (except Hitts and Carths in iron, and maybe Persians in iron: pers and carth can't iron cuz of their sucky tree anyway). Yams beats any civs in brz for navy except a good Hitts dancing. Simply: Yams brings more wood in (same for Assy) and Yams got more HP. A good player is gonna rush with boats while more are comnig from the docks and then repair the damaged ones and re-attack. Of course, a Minos vs a Yams player who's using no strats at all is gonna win.

BTW, a Yams tool faster than a Minos (for sure) and they got cheap Scouts rush...: you think you're smart? ;-) Try to mine gold. Coinageroblem, it sync :-(

SuN_Cam_Popov:
Minoan's first advantage against yam comes with the cheap boats, namely they can make twice as many warboats wit the same wood. Even with yam's boat hps they'll need 50% more wood just to keep up.
 
Minoan's next advantage is again a result of the cheap boats. They can make about 40% more fishing boats with the same wood, which means a faster boom and a faster bronze. Yes, yam might be lucky enough to have SF nearby, but minoan has the same chances of that.
 
Where have you been? Repairing boats doesn't work online: the enemy comes and kills your precious villies repairing the boats, and your *land* villie count drops.
 
Wanna talk about bronze? Cavs die to camels even 2 to 1. If yam ever gets to compies, so does minoan and theirs are better.
 
Yam is good against a lot of civs, but minoan isn't one of them.

Well, sorry to tell ya but: vs good to experts players, I win over 90% of my games. I use the repair too (when done correctly, ennemy won't get your forwards) DON,T BE STUPID ENOUGH TO REPAIR WHILE ATTACKED... ;-)

You should try to get online (maybe an internet cafe or something), we could close that once for good.

The problem with Yamato vs. Minoan is that Mino KNOWS that Yam has to have a good early attack, or else it dies. That's a big advantage for the Mino. On smaller maps, 1v1s, Yamato does beat Mino most of the time because their boats are better in early tool before Mino can hit critical mass with its baots. But Yamato has to beat them...early..or else. If Yamato has a bad starting position, if the distance between Yam and Mino docks is too great, if Mino can stone wall..yada yada yada...Yamato is dead. The villie speed bonus barely helps speed at all, except for bad apots, in which case you'd be dead anyway. It does help the forward builders, which is critical to the rush..

okay, ending post here. im rambling as usual

I take it that yam is better than mino early off because of their ship HP bonus? Is there any other advantage to help yam?

RomanGladius:
If minoan makes more docks, would it help them use their warboat advantage earlier? (aka critical mass)
 
Dave:
Yamato has 20% faster-walking villies, +30% boat hps, and -25% cavalry cost. In bronze they lack camels and chariots. In iron their good units are horse archers, phalanxes and hcavs.

[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 04-25-2000).]

Only on bigger maps where you can get away with it. If you make more docks you have a bigger econ but an even slower tool time, which is trouble against a Yamato tool rush.

Popov: Played correctly? there are WAY too many variables there. Yam can tool rush, which it should, but If minos decides to Tool Yam or get to tool to make SS and walls before yam can rush? OR if Yam tries to boom andMino rushes? Or if they both try to boom? "correct" is relative. If the Yam won agaisnt an equelly skilled player, he could be said to have played "correct". But If Yam lost to a skilled player, and was cosntantly on the ball, changing units to counter enemy units, but had a bad spot, he could be said to have played "correct".

Correct playing isn't winning, but being on the ball and adapting.

??? You wanna boom with Yams vs Minos? Why?

That's what I meant by correctly: Yams beats Minos by speed...Yams should tool 100% faster than Minos (all the time) so there's no contest...of course, if the attacks are done correctly

SuN_Cam_Popov:
It's not hard for a minoan to guess yam has to win quickly. Minoan can tool fast too, you know. I've done 7:00 tool picking berries with them, so bleh.
 
If minoan isn't smart enough and gets caught off-guard, obviously yam should win. Then again, that can be said of any civ vs any civ right?
 
Based on what I learned from your posts, I have a higher opinion of yam against a lot of other civs. However, I still don't think minoan is on yam's victim list. I look forward to trying yam against some over-confident hittites, however...

First Thing: If Minos tool as fast, then they'll be smaller (less villies).

Second thing: Minos otol fast...so? They never used they FB bonus (being cheaper) and they'll never brz (no compies). What do you want more?

Also, Yams everything like Minos except Scouts (land) and SS (navy) both better and also villies that can ran away from every units except Scouts (yams can run easily): Tell me Minos are gonna win ;-)

I knew I was right :=)))

1. Why would minoan have less villies than yam after tooling at the same speed? They pick berries as well as anyone. (except palmy)
 
2. They can still use their FB bonus after they wall in, not to mention their warship bonus if there's any sea fighting. If they tool fast enough to survive yam's attack, believe me you'll see their camels and compies in bronze.
 
3. Scouts can be stopped by walls and/or bowmen, and minoan can make 40% more SS.
 
Minoan takes the sea after walling in, dock booms to bronze, and then makes their camels and superior compies. Minoan lives happily ever after, and yam... looks for his resign button.

Hmmm, since you seems to forget that Yams are FASTER than Minos (man, everyone knows that), I won,t waste my time any longer speaking with ya 'bout this subject: your replies are simply stupid: Yams tool faster than Minos on the same map with same number of villies:end of story...EVERY ROOKIES KNOWS THAT

Plenty of rookies are also convinced greek is the best RM civ, but that doesn't make it so.
 
Maybe you're unable to provide an explanation of why yam can tool sooo much faster than minoan, because they can't. They can scout rush better, forward build or relocate better, but their speed boost through the ages isn't very big. Minoan can tool in 7:00, what's your best tool time with yam?
 
I do agree minoan doesn't tool as fast as yam... but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't. Most minoans are simply happier covering the map with fishing boats before attacking with expensive dual siege armies. Yam often cav rushes because they do that well, but it doesn't mean they can't make hoplites or compies when needed if they have a brain. Too bad the GOers switched to minoan, it was a good underdog counter to the assy CA rush 2 years ago.

Get the game and start playing: you really need some practice

Nah, on water Mino is faster.

Making a few fboats that more than negates the villie speed. Villie speed makes you like 20 seconds faster to tool than a slow civ like Mino...which the cheap fb make up.

The big advantage Yamato has over other civs on water maps early is their ship HP...they can dominate early tool.

Tell me you are able to do 16 real villies and 4 FB with Minos in 7:00 and you rox: you don't dock for a fast tool: it slows you too much.

Yams is good if they get a drop on Minos. The problem is, unless you forward build on Minos, the time it takes for your scouts to reach minos means minos, if played right, should have its own scouts, or bowmen. Remember, tool military works like this: Axers beat Scouts and slingers, Scouts beat villagers and slingers, bowmen beat scouts and axers, slingers beat bowmen.

Your 20 second speed advantage better be put to good use, or your going to lose. If minos gets walls up before your scouts cause havoc, your ****ed.

RomaGladius:
I agree yam's boat bonus is pretty, cool but minoan (if they make more docks) can be making more boats with the same wood, and you know what happens when you have 3 boats against 2, yammie or not... Now, against hittite minoan can't use a whole big mass of boats to go hunt them down in narrow rivers, and that's where I'd much rather have +30% boat hps.
 
Elijeh:
Aah, the joys of rock-paper-scissors.
 
How do early cavs fit into tool-age warfare?
 
Yep, yamato's dominant timeframe against minoan is very limited. Good minoan players usually dock-block if at all possible, that can give yammie (and various other rush civs) a headache if he was trying to forward build...
 
SuN_Cam_Popov:
Simple solution: dock *while* tooling, and switch your villies to wood.

Elijeh: I've said a Yams played CORRECTLY....this means: forward(s) builder(s).

SuN_Cam_Popov:
I don't think there's anyone correct way to play any given civ, but I agree forward building is an obvious necessity against minoan since they *must* win in tool.
 
Against hittite it would be easier, since yam has a large enough bronze speed advantage to cav rush hittite's tool age town for several minutes (!) before hittite can bring out the camels. Even if hittite walls in, yam has more than enough time to bring in STs if they were already working on it, and even if by pure chance hittite manages to bronze and put out a few camels, yam by then can mass compies. Even on the sea, yam's extra boat hps may allow them to close in on hittite's ships despite their greater range, even if they're in a river. Next time I'm against a hittite on the zone, they'll be my top pick.

[This message has been edited by wedsaz (edited 04-26-2000).]

Why using Yams if you aren't rushing? This is what I've meant by playing 'em CORRECTLY. I'm a very good rusher (tool-brz or iron in a sling): this is what I do best...and I'm good to do huge boom under 16:00 brz: those 2 are my 2 strongs sides of my game...Yams beats (I know, I've used 'em many times) almost any strats the ennemy can throw at ya: you can adjust easily...If the ennemy is boomnig like mad (over 60), simply make navy while gonig for an iron under 17:00 and ya won with the cheap HA while he's losing all his FB fleet:I've seen many trying to outboom me like that and that was fun to watch 'em calling me a cheater :=)
"17:00 iron!?!?! How you did that!?!?!...I've awnsered: I've cheated"...

My specialties are anti-rush defense and optimized (fast) booms.
 
I'm usually at my best against blitzers or fast rushers, most of them aren't used to fighting an opponent who's *ready* for them, especially the better (faster) ones.
 
I agree, yam is a rush civ. The only game I won with them (I'm not good at rushing, remember?), I iron jumped against an assy... can you say yam HA vs assy CA? Taking only half damage from their arrows, I could hardly lose!