Yeah, I really miss the game, even though I'm a bit rusty. Theory just isn't the same as practice.

Blitz & Wedsaz

Well...tell us all about it and don't you dare think about leaving anything out. A little play by play will be fine. Mainly, who kicked who's ass! I have a hunch that Blackheart was the "Ass Kicker." Props out to Wedsaz for showing up.

well.... i played one game ...........

(wedsaz = green) ...

there was a second game, i watched wedsaz playing...... but was too tired to stick around for the outcome.......

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 05-04-2000).]

Yeah, come on. I want details. I could not be on last night to play and I wanna know what happened.

Well, I watched wedsaz's first game and noticed sever peculiar behaviours.

1. He let this new and job-completed villies sit for ages doing nothing.

2. He neglected to get wood, and when his first food patch went out and he had just scarfed enough up for another building, he still didn't build a wood pit. (he struggled for wood the whole game)

3. He sent a villie across the map do build a dock with his ally (didn't fish from it or anything) in TOOL, and BEFORE he built one at home!

4. He didn't wall, and you know how he stands on THAT issue...

5. He waited until he had about 700 food to tool.

6. He didn't build any fb the whole game (even while tooling with 200 wood and a barracks).

7. He built ONE *cav* and sent it against a troup of CA's with enemy compies nearby!!

8. He sent one of his last two villies into the ally base when surely he realized his ally was wiped out.

9. For all the teamplay he talks about, they were too far apart, too dead, and too UNTALKATIVE to do anything together or help each other out.

As I write this (my head throbbing, still tired, and skipping school BTW) I think I will have to take anything wedsaz says with two grains of salt instead of just one.

BTW, I played him and screwed everything up. I was so tired, so careless (I tried my famous two strats at once habit which just doesn't work, used minoa which I rarely use, and toolrushed with slingers, very late I might add, when I am a horrrible rusher), and had such a bad and slow start with an econ that never was, that he should have beat me in 20 mins. Yet, with a little recon from Wild1234, I hung on to that painfful game for an hour and a half, untill out of exhaustion and boredom deleted all but one of my buildings and just watched. (by this time I was a ranting lunatic who needed nothing but sleep. Ishould have, and anyone else would have whupped him back to the stone age.

In that game, he always had control of the res and lots of them, but never made any considerable army, although worked with his navy quit a bit. WTF? I was minoa, and he fought for the sea like there was no land! I shoulda won.

HonoredMule

Now that is what I was looking for. Thanks man!

wedsaz

So...what was the view like from your side of the map? Are we getting an acurate depiction of what happened?

Blitz

I gotta here it from you too. Dirt...lovely, lovely dirt.

All I can say is, "..." *Looks down in without saying a word*

Wedsaz and Blitz got whiped out badley. I used to think that wedsaz was good, until I saw that Pic, *shakes head* You bring shame to aoe players wedsaz, too much shame to bare. *looks awaay from wedsaz* tsk tsk tsk

LOL

------------------
Vladislav
Zone: _Lost_Atlantis_

well... for anyone who wants more info ...i watched wedsaz the 2nd game .......

1) he didnt do anything for 1st 18 seconds of game.... (???) ... at 18 sec his vills started moving

2) with ALL 3 vills he made 1 house , without exploring around his tc at all...

3) he had a forest with 1 ele close to tc so he pitted that .... (if he only explored tc he had very nice berries near tc)

4) he was struggling for a long time, and doing weird stuff that i dont remember any more...... for the entire stone age he kept getting housed (production stopped due to lack of houses).... he managed to hit the tool button below 10 mins, perhaps because all he made was like 11-12 villagers, and rest boats.....

5) he made his barracks WAY after tooling, and was making ships with all his wood, didnt make tool building to bronze..... later he had about 700 wood, and STILL didnt make the tool buildings .... when he finally made 2 tool buildings , he had like 1300 food and finally went bronze....

6) bronze time ended up being 18:30 ...... doesnt look like mule put up much effort when fighting against wedsaz..... mino is capable of wrecking any civ.... especially persia.... due to their lack of range......... mule didnt run with his vills when wedsaz came in with 1 cav in like........ 20 + mins? yeah 1 cav ..... after a couple mins it turned into 3 cavs..... heh..... wedsaz won the water and later land with a few eles .....

then i resigned cuz was too tired........ o well......

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 05-04-2000).]

Ok, now for some explanations.
 
Game #1 mistakes:
1. I sent all 3 villies out exploring, got housed after 4th: I wasn't used to noreveal, I'm ashamed of that but it's true. I'll improve on that, when I can play some more.
2. Yes, I got completely confused in my micromanagement: I haven't played anything resembling a computer game for over 8 months, what do you expect? When I can get back to playing regularly, I'll put up a better performance.
3. I forgot to tool. That's right, I forgot. Realizing I had tooled late, I went to build my docks near Blitz thinking I'd at least help him out with war galleys by bronzing first. I had made only 2 FB when the enemy's scout ships showed up, so I gave up on fishing and started making warboats.
4. My town was invaded with tool bowmen, I made a few slingers but switched to cavs as soon as I reached bronze. I was slow, and the enemy got CAs, I'd say by then the game was over.
I think if I hadn't forgotten to tool *cough cough* I would have had more FB, earlier warboats, and bronzed earlier.
 
Game #2 mistakes:
1. Both people were on the same team, and I didn't move for the first 18 secs because I thought it was a non-game. We could see each other's TCs at the start.
2. I thought I was minoan, and tried to fastboom as such. Wood really goes down fast when you're making 50w boats as if they were 35w!
I built the house with 3 villies because I had already located my forest. I pitted at the forest, and started chopping away, like I would do with minoan. I fought long and hard on the sea, again because I thought I was minoan. Didn't realize I was persian until late bronze, at which point I decided to iron jump which I think was a good move. I did mess up HonoredMule's economy with a few cavs, though.

Any Iron jump sux btw...You need HUGE eco.

Maybe I shouldn't feel *so* bad...

Last night I played and committed wedsaz's game #1, 3) mistake.

I was mino and was boat booming and had 20-25 villies and tons of FB (probably 20-25 boats). Everything was going great! I had an amazing econ. Only problem was ... I forgot to hit the tool button. LOL. Death seal!!! I was concentrating so hard on getting resources and had "my head down" ... When I finally realized that a lot of time had passed and that I forgotten to tool I had 1000W and 2100F in the bank! Oops. By then I was pretty much screwed. Of course I lost the sea and got into tool and bronze late and got wiped.

But anyway, I had a lot of fun. I won't make that mistake next time. At least now, thanks to all you experts who have helped with many suggestions, I know how to get lots of resources relatively quickly.

Many thanks to people like BlitzKreigComin, popov, blackheart and even wedsaz, to name a few. I still suck but I'm pretty sure I'd suck a lot worse without interaction with you all.

SuN_Cam_Popov:
I killed his slinger army with a lone cav... I'd say bronze jumping was worthwhile.
 
I also killed his camel+compie army with a handful of eles, and a whole bunch of galleys with a few triremes. Iron jumping was worth it, and either I didn't need a huge econ or persian's econ is better than you think!
 

HonoredMule:
One little thing I think I should mention. When using phalanxes vs war eles, you really should upgrade their armor.

wedsaz.... that was no "iron jump" ... you just ironed...... if you reached iron by the time you bronzed in that game (18 mins or so) ... that would be a JUMP ....

oh and no persia's economy is NOT good.... if i was that mino u would't even live to see the iron age......

[This message has been edited by Blackheart (edited 05-04-2000).]

Here is my take on last night:

First of all - props to wedsaz for showing up. Don't tell me that didn't surprise everyone.

Also Blackheart taught me alot of great stuff as he kicked my ass without breaking a sweat. Here is a detailed explanation of what makes such a HUGE gap between EXPERT and INTER. I feel it is why you must play expert games to become an expert.

From the opening of the game Blackheart and Hyper built towards their opponent. At the end of the game there was not one building of theirs behind their TC (in relationship to their opponent). This simple act alone is not done in "Inter" games I play. Blackheart had 2 explorers building docks, houses, barracks, and archery ranges. He basicaly used houses to scout all the area between us. My explorer was always in his line of sight all game.

When I saw all of these houses I thought the best thing would be to ignore (stupid, stupid, stupid)all the buildings and explorers. I had no villas close to his explorers and I would have needed 3-4 woodcutters to go kill them. I thought "I will have more wood than him, win sea, then kill all buildings after I kill his woodcutters."

I simply built barracks by his barracks. He beat me to Tool and had 2 scout ships at each of my docks early. I had over 1000 wood, but I never could mass a navy together. He had Tool archers in my woodcutters and I had Tool archers wandering nowhere where I thought his woodcutters would be.

About that woodcutter thing. He simply had me confused where they were. I sent Tool archers around the area I thought they would be, but found nothing. In Bronze, I sent CA's looking. I found a forest by his TC that was untouched. That confused me. I kept the CA's going and they ran in to compies and that was that.

By then I was done. Sea gone, woodcutters killed by compies and no sense running through a continuos line of buildings between him and I. He had archery ranges between my ally and me.

If you see the achievements screen, Blackheart had over 50% of world pop of 158 I think. This was before the 30 min mark.

Yes--He kicked my ass ** BUT ** I won't see that style of gameplay in INTER games so how can I "become expert" any ohter way than having guys like Blackheart, Hyper, and Popov kick my ass until I can compete.

I think the gap between INTER and EXPERT is as severe as going from playing comps to a newbie playing a seasoned rook on Zone. Basically players adapt to their enviroment. How can I become a good rookie playing comps, good inter playing newbies, and good expert playing inter. The style of play is just miles apart.

I know experts can boom econ better, advance through ages better, boom military better, and micromanage better. But I need to get beat by them to learn from them, and be able to hang with them.

Thanks Blackheart for the education.

[This message has been edited by BlitzkreigComin (edited 05-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BlitzkreigComin (edited 05-04-2000).]

AoW_DeMoN_LaG on the zone, message me and I'll play some 1 vs 1's with you

Hey laggy thanks for the whoopin!

I appreciate the time spent showing and telling me that my "INTER" style of play has to change to survive expert games.

Biggest Point Learned (for 1v1): Build a Tool army. Attack early and often. If you found enemy - put stable or range there - if not put it around home. Send scouts no less than 2, archers no less than 3-4, and slingers over 5. This will help my "much needed" Tool warfare skills.

Thanks.

Twas fun...

wedsaz, just what I noticed...

1. I think that you should of followed up your attack with the 3 calv, you had killed like half his econ and he only had 1 compie protecting his town...

2. You could have probably taken the sea a lot sooner, you were sitting around with like 2000 wood all the time. I think you should of tried making a navy and attacking...

Just my thoughts

Wild1234:
1. I don't know if you noticed, but HonoredMule had started making camels, which was a good move btw. I was working on switching to compies+camels, which is more effective after the initial bronze rush. Then I saw that *HE* was minoan and *I* was persian, when all along I thought it was the other way around... so I stopped making any military I didn't need right away and tried to iron.
2. Yep, I'm rusty - listen while I move my mouse fingers: *SQUEAK* *SQUEAK*
 
I hope I can be a regular on the zone again soon. Dang, I really should get back to work so I can get this project over with.

wedsaz

First I congradulate you on showing up, that was a feat in itself. Second, I should have beat you, AND you should have beat me ages ago. (literaly) We were like women catfiting with claws rather than the efficient assassins we should have both been. I made several mistakes myself.

I built away from the forest between us, liking its defensive value, then attacked through it. That cost me my entire army in one shot to a *single* cat. I screwed my econ all the way through, even though your little operation at my home tc was meaningless to me. (I dont put much stock in homeworld, if ya know what I mean) My econ was screwed because I did my famous two strat at once habit, (I tried a dock boom and a toolrush?!?) I also tried foreward building with one villie (none to spare, villie production never really got going, which gave me a later bronze time than you even) I struggled for res the whole game because of all this. I did put a lot of stock into my foreward operation, and attacked before I was ready (although I should have been ready ages ago, and found it odd that you didn't attack my scout sitting in the middle of your town) Come to think of it, I should have scout rushed, because by late tool, I had lots of food, and you wouldn't have expected it. Now here is the best part. I somehow FORGOT thae PERSIA has ELLES! That just finished me right there, nearly. Were it not for wild's help, Your first elle wave would have killed me. My most important mistake was the two strat one. Both always end up deing a big flop. Biiiig flop.

Blackheart

I am a rook who once considered himself an inter. once my status is back up, I would covet an educational whupping from you. zm me anytime you see me, and I'll play ya.

better yet you zm me im kind of lazy to zm people

Hey, next time we have one of these forum games, zm Sarmis_Wuzat. I'm expert by your terms, and have great military handling Not to mention econ either... I should be onhand to teach some of yas.