Age of Empires: The Rise or Rome RasPatch

Topic Subject: Age of Empires: The Rise or Rome RasPatch

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Rasteve
Clubman

posted 08-05-09 08:50 PM ET (US)

UPDATED 11 NOVEMEBER

v0.5 is now complete and available via the granary.

DOWNLOAD HERE

Feel free to email if you have any questions. My email address is rasteveBBBatBBBtalkBBB21BBBdotBBBcom (remove the BBB's).

v0.5
Enhancements

- Single player games now have 200 population limits as default
- Civilisation unique bonuses improved to strengthen weaknesses
- Super units have unique abilities
- Iron age market technologies have special bonuses
- Ships and buildings are prone to fire damage
- Shield upgrades apply to all units with a shield
- Gaia buildings have the Roman tileset
- Installation does not overwrite original game files

Balance Changes
- Cataphracts have double LOS (super ability)
- Legions train 6 seconds faster (super ability)
- Centurions have 1 range (super ability)
- Gold mines have +200 gold
- Stone mines have +50 stone
- Foot archers have 90% accuracy (previously 100%)
- Mounted archers have 80% accuracy (previously 100%)
- Clubmen, axemen and short swordsmen no longer affected by shield technologies
- Scythe chariot, heavy cavalry and cataphracts affected by shield technologies
- Broad, long, legion, hoplites, phalanx, centies and scythes start with 1 pierce
- Heavy horse archers speed increased to 2.6 (previously 2.5)
- Fire galley deals 12 fire damage (shield and armour cannot reduce damage)
- Fire galley deals +12 bonus vs ships and buildings (no change vs ships)
- Scouts have 12 LOS (no longer increased with each age advancement)
- Stone throwers, catapults and heavy catapults minimum range +1 (3)
- All farm technologies +150 food yield (previously +75)
- All wood technologies +25% woodcutter work rate (previously +0.2 work/sec)
- All stone technologies +40% stone miner work rate (previously +0.3 work/sec)
- All gold technologies +40% gold miner work rate (previously +0.3 work/sec +25% coinage)
- All gold technologies +2 gold carriage (previously +3)
- Coinage increases gold mine yield (amount of gold) by 40% (previously 25%)
- Craftsmanship increases arrow and missile speed by 20%
- Irrigation reduces farm cost by 50%
- Jihad +20% villager speed (previously +0.3 speed)
- Alchemy gives additional +1 bonus vs ships and buildings (including previous effects)
- Assyrian cavalry, heavy cavalry and cataphracts have +2 pierce bonus
- Babylonian stone miners +50% work rate (previously 44%)
- Carthaginian fishing and trade ships have 30% speed increase (like transports)
- Choson short, broad, long and legion have +60 hit points bonus
- Egyptian gold miners +50% work rate (previously 44%)
- Greek slingers have +1 pierce armor bonus
- Minoan improved bowmen also have +2 range and los (like compies)
- Persian hunters +70% work rate (previously 67%)
- Persian scout ship and war galley also have 50% fire rate increase (like triremes)
- Roman barracks units (club, axe, sling, sword) have 33% attack rate bonus
- Cheat units are no longer affected by technologies or civ bonuses
- Hero units are no longer affected by technologies or civ bonuses
- Text improved for technologies (popup help, status line etc)
- More help references added to Rise or Rome content (for future changes to help file)
- Buildings and units have been grouped differently

Bug Fixes
- Status box text size reduced ("200/200" no longer overlaps command buttons)
- Removed redudant technologies string references (alpha/beta strings no longer required)
- Hero12 is now named Hero Pericles
- Elephant king attack animation now shows correctly
- All trees contain the wood that is displayed in the status box
- Assyrian villager speed bonus of 20% (previously 18%, not 30% as quoted in manual)
- Assyrian archers fire rate bonus of 40% (previously 27% for bowman, 36% for mounted)
- Assyrian placed elephant archers are affected by 40% fire rate bonus (scenario builder)
- Babylonian rejuvenation bonus of 30% (previously 27%)
- Babylonian placed war elephants no longer upgrade to armored eles in post-iron settings
- Carthaginian transport speed bonus of 30% (previously 25% for light, 43% for heavy)
- Carthaginian placed rafts are affected by 30% speed bonus (scenario builder)
- Choson priest cost reduction implemented as a subtraction rather than multiplication
- Choson post-iron barracks now train legions with the hp bonus
- Egyptian nobility yields +33% bonus +15% hp for chariots (previously dropped 1hp)
- Egyptian chariots hp the same whether nobility researched or iron/post-iron start
- Greek heavy infantry speed bonus of 30% (previously 33%)
- Greek warship speed bonus of 25% (previously 17% missile ships, 22% catapult ships)
- Hittite placed triremes are affected by +4 range/LOS bonus (scenario builder)
- Hittite placed impies no longer upgraded to composite bowmen in post-iron settings
- Hittite duplicated afterlife restriction removed
- Minoan post-iron archery range now trains composite bowmen with the range bonus
- Palmyran villagers work rate bonus of 50% (previously ranged between 33% and 50%)
- Palmyran repairman and builder work rate bonus of 50% (previously 0%)
- Palmyran farmers work rate bonus of 50% (previously 0%)
- Persian elephant speed bonus of 50% (previously 56%)
- Persian trireme rate of fire bonus of 50% (previously 39%)
- Persian placed hoplites no longer upgraded to centurions in post-iron settings
- Persian farms no longer benefit from irrigation in post-iron settings
- Phoenician catapult ship rate of fire bonus of 65% (previously 72%)
- Phoenician unknown restriction removed
- Roman swordsman attack rate bonus implemented as a multiplication
- Shang duplicated villager bonus removed
- Sumerian catapult class rate of fire bonus of 50% (previously 43%)
- Yamato villager speed bonus of 20% (previously 18%, not 30% as quoted in manual)
- Yamato ship bonus of 30% (rounded up, previously dropped 1hp and fb/fs at 33%)
- Yamato placed war elephants no longer upgrade to armored eles in post-iron settings
- Phalanx upgrade now adds 1 to researched technologies score within achievements
- Centurion upgrade now affects placed phalanx units (scenario builder)
- Long swordsman upgrade now affects placed broad swordsman units (scenario builder)
- Legion upgrade now affects placed broadies and long swordsman units (scenario builder)
- Trireme upgrade now affects placed war galley units (scenario builder)
- Added fire galley prerequisite text to galley upgrade
- Aristocracy now increases academy units speed by 25% (previously 28%, 21% Greek)
- Added centurion prerequisite text to aristocracy
- Nobility now increases hit points by 15% (rounded up, previously dropped 1hp)
- Added scythe chariot prerequisite text to nobility
- Added ballista tower prerequisite text to ballistics
- Added juggernaught prerequisite text to engineering
- Alchemy now adds the correct attack type to each unit
- Alchemy text now details actual benefits
- Wheel technology increases villager speed by 60% (previously 64%, 54% Assy/Yammy)
- Artisanship now increases LOS for all archery range units (previously omitted mounted)
- Added correct technology effects text to all market technologies
- Catapult upgrade text now follows standard convention
- Heavy catapult upgrade now affects placed catapult units (scenario builder)
- Fixed more help reference for catapult (previously pointed to heavy catapult)
- Cataphract upgrade now affects placed heavy cavalry units (scenario builder)
- Armor text has been changed to make effects clearer
- Added heavy horse archer prerequisite text to chain mail for archers technology
- Added cataphract prerequisite text to metallurgy technology
- Storage pit attack technologies have been altered to remove legacy elephant affects
- Shield text has been changed to make effects clearer
- Armored elephant prerequisite text added to iron shield technology
- Changed the way astrology effect is applied
- Changed astrology research text to include affects on healing rate
- Fanaticism increases rejuvenation rate by 50% or 40% babylon (previously 43% or 34%)
- Legion prerequisite text added to fanaticism technology
- Added babylonian rejuvenation rate change text to fanaticism technology
- Changed medicine research text to declare actual benefit
- Added building exclusions to monotheism research text
- Changed jihad technology text to indicate actual affects
- Changed martyrdom technology text to include enemy priest exclusion
- Guard tower uppgrade now affects placed sentry towers (scenario builder)
- Ballista tower upgrade now affects placed sentry and guard towers (scenario builder)
- Removed duplicated archery range upgrade for iron age advance
- Removed duplicated technology effect from medicine technology
- General reinforcement of technology prerequisites

Test Packs
- DM Test Pack: Includes Choson, Persian and Egyptian DM games (2 maps for each) - 1v1 Iron Hillz (large) setting
- DM Test Pack Unstable: Same as above but the AI scripts are very prone to crashing on my machine.
- RM Test Pack: Assyrian RM game (2 maps) - 1v1 Stone Hillz (large) HARDEST (starting resources boost) setting

Dat Change Count
v0.1: 446 dat changes
v0.2: 602 dat changes
v0.3: 313 dat changes
v0.4: 2401 dat changes
v0.5: 1001 dat changes

Total Changes
4763 dat changes
298 dll changes
4 AI replacements
5 PER changes
15 other changes

v0.6 Proposal
This version will concentrate on the units, and will include such fixes as enabling units in the editor, placeable gaia units near edge of map, text updates etc.

I will also make the following changes to heroes:

All ranged heroes will automatically have alchemy and ballistics

All heroes will have increased attributes (as techs no longer affect them)

Villager heroes will no longer change to villagers when tasked

Further balance changes:

Archers fire 100% accurate: More units get shields now

Stone: Mines have 350 stone (+100 on original, +50 on last update)

Egypt: Gets 40% coinage-like bonus to replace current gold bonus

Palmyran: villagers have 40% work rate

Shang: ballista/helepolis missiles travel 20% faster

Persian: barracks units cost 20% less

Babylonian: priests get 30% conversion+healing bonus instead of rejuvenation rate bonus

Phoenician: 20% work rate woodies

Sumerian: academy units cost 20% less

Hittite: siege gets 50% hp bonus and not 100%, missile and siege ships have +2 range bonus (not +4 for missiles ships)

Wishlist

Siege can be repaired by villies

Trade involves more resources

Please let me know any problems, suggestions or general feedback.

Just in case you were wondering, this patch builds upon the RoR v1.0a US Language version.

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 11-30-2009 @ 10:26 PM).]

Author

Replies:

Rasteve
Clubman

posted 11-30-09 07:02 PM ET (US) 251 / 269

Review Part 1: Enhancements

I thought I would do a review for the RasPatch, to ensure it is not going into the wrong direction. I have broken down this into several sections to best retrieve any feedback. Firstly I will start with the current enhancements:

The game will contain a number of enhancements which add something a little different to AoE. The purpose of the patch is mainly to balance, but some new features will also freshen up the game. Generally, feedback should state if the new features are good or bad (and why), and whether the changes make the patch too different from the original.

- Single player games now have 200 population limits as default the idea here is to make single player games 200 pop limit as is the standard for multiplayer games.
- Civilisation unique bonuses improved to strengthen weaknesses some civs have "unplayable" weaknesses, that is to say similiar skilled players will find problems with certain strats against other players. The changes should make the weaknesses not so apparent (they will still be there, but the results of the game driven more by skill).
- Super units have unique abilities units which require the "super" upgrades tend to have special abilities, but several units (cataphract, legion and centurion) do not have such extra abilities. By giving these 3 units a little extra, they would be more deployable in battle. and furthermore integrate into certain strategy/tactics.
- Iron age market technologies have special bonuses Coinage and siegecraft have extra bonuses associated with their workrate enhancements, and therefore it would seem suitable to follow this through with irrigation and craftsmanship.
- Ships and buildings are prone to fire damage Alchemy missiles and fire galley units will now deal "fire damage" to ships and buildings, thereby making these techs/units more important. The change also adds a sense of realism.
- Shield upgrades apply to all units with a shield This change is aimed at making melee combat slightly better against ranged units. Critical mass is still a problem but the balance has slightly changed from a one-sided affair. This change also adds a sense of realism.
- Gaia buildings have the Roman tileset As the Roman tileset is the "new" architecture type, it seemed fitting to deploy this to the gaia units (which previously used the isolate asian tileset.
- Installation does not overwrite original game files The installation has been designed to work in parallel with the original game. No need for file swapping, reinstalling etc to get the original game.

Any feedback is welcome (even if you haven't played the patch). I will put together something for the balance changes shortly.

DarkBerserk
Clubman

posted 11-30-09 08:24 PM ET (US) 252 / 269

I was wondering... you said something about realism... Is it possible to make siege weapons 'repairable'? I mean, to have to repair them with villagers (like AoK) instead of healing them with priests (I think that's unrealistic :P)

Rasteve
Clubman

posted 11-30-09 10:24 PM ET (US) 253 / 269

Well, ships can be repaired so I guess I could do this. Yes, I will add this to my wishlist along with improved trade.

volume
Clubman

posted 12-02-09 08:18 AM ET (US) 254 / 269

Egypt

You don't care about DM but state they must be given a super unit AND another super unit to have all shields...

and your point is?

I have seen helepolis being tackled with ele archers + priest combo, and I am sure scythes coming in during the attack (flank) will also add to the hele misery. You only need to convert a few, eles kill a few and scythes chew a few to remove the group completely

perhaps not so. helepolis with their fast fire rate can even belt or 'flame belt' elephant archers quickly. for scythes, it would be the same as critical mass archers with faster attacks and not only that with an even stronger attack. not too sure about the priests though, since they are not such a big or 'fat target' compared to the other two, however, priests have weak hp. i could only see some helepolis killed by elephant archers since they also have weak hp and some converted by priests but to a meaningless extent. scythes might kill very few if they are lucky. it will take quite alot to remove the group.

200 pop limit, scythes can be constantly produced 40+ at a time, towers only last so long, stone only lasts so long

Stone throwers + engineering are better IF you can protect them.

unless scythes can be moved to a position to deal maximum including adjacent damage, but still that also is not likely to destroy let alone damage much. you need them to be 'shield bearers' and you need siegecraft. wood also lasts so long, towers may also guard whatever trees are left. 'stone' is likely better to sustain damage than 'wood' therefore, towers may stand longer than chariots. even 40+ scythes may as well be cut like flies if they try to assault numerous towers. you will need stone thrower + engineering, and hopefully you can sustain that.

Choson Towers are a nightmare for ANY civ.

including those with heavy cat + engineering, armored elephants or jihad + siegecraft? and then your stone throwers here wont work. lets give them some armored eles shall we?

If an egyptian player forces a "stalemate" it means no more attacks because the other has run out of gold. If they get scythes they may have "forgotten" the 900 gold upgrade to churn out more gold units (not uncommon). At a stalemate situation 9/10 the now goldless player will say "GG" and quit. This is my experience.

since that is your experience. do you think we can go by that alone? that sounds more like what a n00b would 'hope' for - the other guy to resign. and then surprise - heavy cats to crush all your scythes, elephant archers and priests!

If one civ can force a stalemate as such, then this is a unique feature (and kinda realistic too, don't you think?).

what ever happend to 'I Rasteve, do not like realism'? also 'Real life is boring anyway'? and 'Do not forget it is a game'? and with that being said, isnt the point of the 'game' is to win? what happens if we just called it a draw 'so nobodys feelings get hurt'?

Again, DM strat = bombard armored eles with towers, archery range units, priest conversions, stables blocking paths and scythes causing a nuisance...I have seen many dead dumbos this way.

Again, there you go with the DM. and while all that is happening of them attempting to distract the elephants, there are also heavy cats and/or helepolii behind the eles which will crush and kill all those 'nuisances'. many dead dumbos? i think not, but rather many rubbles, dead archers, dead priests and dead scythes.

Egypt did not win the battle of Kadesh. They could not siege so withdrew, this is a famous example of a stalemate. Both sides claimed victory, and really Hittite did better in terms of the outcome.

In terms of the 'actual battle' of Kadesh. Egypt won as the success of timely reinforcements ensured this. In terms of Kadesh itself, the Hittites kept control of it but were pinned inside its walls. Originally, the Hittites surprised the Egyptians and were winning, but then Rameses rallied his personal guards chariots and charged repeatedly at his foes routing them out. Meanwhile, the King of Hatti still had a large reserve force left and so he ordered them to attack but then the timely arrival of more Egyptian forces combined with Rameses Amun 'then surprised' the Hittites routing them out and forcing them to flee across the river. Rameses having won however, found that it became meaningless to continue with his hold on Kadesh and decided to withdraw his siege. Basically, Hittites 'were winning' by surprising the Egyptians but then Rameses charged at them and then the Egyptians pulled 'a surprise' if not the same, on the Hittites. Seems like the Egyptians just simply outmuscled the Hittites but then later otherwise became less interested. The Egyptians later came with interest again and then again. Two and three years later, when Rameses came back to punish the Canaanites to remind them of their vassalage, he then this time, took Kadesh. His victory proved to be ephemeral however, and when he left, the Hittites regained control. He came back yet again a year after that and did the same, but nevertheless his success yet again was equally as meaningless. That's when both superpowers 'grew tired' and did a treaty.

Micro

Micro = control of individual units MILITARY AND ECONOMY

Without micro, say goodbye to the rush

Without micro, say goodbye to a fast boom

Without micro, archers cannot defeat a larger army

AoE = micro-intensive, you need skills to do things before other players, faster than other players and better than other players. The interface is even designed to control small groups of units at the most.

Hotkeys...micro

except setting it at your convenience with the economy though you will require some timing. also i disagree with you on the hotkeys being micro as thats not micro-intensive but its more so a shortcut. finally, once you get your army (of any size ready), theres really virtually no micro in terms of movement, attack.

Macromanagement
"the overall manner in which a player manages his units and the development of his bases - making them complete and operational in RTS"

Overall manner of micro i.e. macro = sum effect of micro

Total War etc are macro-intensive, where you control huge armies, deploying tactics etc.

the overall manner, PERIOD. you can set as the example i mentioned above and set your economy by convenience and timeliness, use hotkeys as shortcuts and then grab your army whole and attack. in the game its about pitching player versus player and even if with micro involved, it is all about their competitiveness in them managing both military and economy simultaneously - and that my friend, is macromanagement.

Rush

First rush will remove eco from slower player...meaning follow rush will be smaller and later (you cannot build 3 towers, attack cavalry etc AND rush at the same time now can you?)

use macromanagement to build the towers, attack cavalry etc and rush at the same time. some actually overlap each other, so you can conveniently do them simultaneously such as for example forward builds also lead to rush so you may come across them while counter-rushing and use those as well.

You don't mine stone during a rush until the very end (when you have the resources to build forwards and train your rushing units) - any delay makes the rush less of a rush...and less effective

and what delay is there to make your rush less effective? you can still mine stone in the middle of a rush unless you were negligent.

How long will you need 2 villies on stone to build 3 towers? Nearly 6 minutes before the attack (can you afford putting 2 on stone 5-6 minutes into the game?) - (0.45 work rate is 333 1/3 seconds per tower).

you can do that for example before your bronzing up once you see that you got some good amount of food or wood. its the same as if you were to cavalry rush, you need gold right? and at 80 gold per cavalry is very expensive.

As soon as someone starts rushing they are making their next move - booming and walling. You rush will be weaker, later etc - good chance of hitting a wall. At the same time you have no eco

thats why your rush doesnt have to be later and if you hit a wall then you can simply move your economy to your forward builds and prepare to surround and siege and engulf. the point of rush is to achieve the best offense for the best defense. you can ignore your economy and simply catch up later with your economy by having them at your forward builds. someone booming and walling while rushing cant expand at the same time now can they?

A villager lost or villager running is good for a rusher. They are to harass and slow the other eco.

and you can also pull the same surprise and who says you cant?

Again you forget what a rush is all about. If 2 players are rushing and 1 gets hit, player getting hit doesn't have the luxery of thinking "build 3 towers" - you don't have the eco. If you had 2 on stone a few minutes into the game why are you rushing? Shouldn't you be walling? A rush hits a wall and has only one real option - boom hard. They have to make use of the remaining map before the other player does. 16 villager eco sucks against something around 24 villies (and is growing!). Plus they are walled, so if they can peel 2 builders off they can forward your base.

i stated what a rush is all about. its not 'think' its 'do'. you may wall, fine. a rush that hits a wall can also choose to forward build and surround the walls and make a quick work instead of necessary booming hard for it. they can make use of the remaining map next. also who says you cant train some more vills? if they should also forward you then its a different game then.

A rusher hits a wall, has 16 villies, knows inside is a player growing in eco strength - why use your slow eco to build a stone thrower and try and bash your way through? By the time you make it the other player is going to have cavalry (fully upgraded) and in a large group hacking the stone thrower to pieces

.

now did i say just simply make all that trouble just to get a stone thrower? you can tower outside their walls or something to harass whoever close or block whoever attempts to leave. if you really are going to just simply get a stone thrower ready then couldnt you simply use brute force instead? and btw this wall thing is considering if its not babylon or shang, then its at different standards.

Towers do not stop ANY rush - it offers minimal protection against archers at most. Don't tell me your 2 stone miners managed 3 towers and the guard tower upgrade before 12 minutes (16 villies).

did i say towers stops rush? the way you build your towers is to simply have them just like stone archers at the scene (i.e. right next to your woodcutters). they are to provide additional attack as necessary when you engage in a melee. yes i managed to get 3 towers and the sentry upgrade and if you are talking 16 villies then you are at a different standard, if you are talking guard tower upgrade then you are somewhere else.

Woodworking is important! It is the only tech you need pre-bronze for most strats (if you boom you could go for gold mining too). Woodworking allows you to hit bronze with more wood, better chance of more buildings, forwards, fishing boats, scout ships etc as well as better ranged units. With your 2 miners on stone I can see why it is not at the top of your list

woodworking only results in +2 extra carriage and +1 extra range. for the wood part, its simply carry 2 extra wood and NOT chop wood any faster and +1 range doesnt matter much. and besides, i can simply get it while i am bronzing up ;p

The wheel is research DURING the rush to boost the eco which wants to go from 16 villies to 30+ ASAP...the wheel is for the next step - has nothing to do with the rush unless the CA is the rushing unit. If compie is your rush how slow is your rush going to be with 2 archer upgrades (impie/compie) plus units and the wheel?

the wheel is nevertheless researched first thing you hit bronze just for that purpose of speeding your economy to create troops faster for the rush, during it and after. and i dont know about your standards but its not simply make 16 villies to 30+ ASAP. if that was also the case then wouldnt macedon and persia need it then as well? the wheel is NOT the next step. you also said sometime earlier about saving the food and wood instead of researching wheel so it can be used towards more cavalry and more stables for a rush BUT you are missing the BIG picture, wheel is inexpensive (175 food, 75 wood) and its benefit can simply pay itself almost instantly and can simply result in you getting more food and wood faster for your cavalry and stables. saving the food and wood required of wheel is negligible towards you getting any more cavalry or stables.

also, if you were to compie rush for any reason including minoan (which i like compies better than CAs), then you first of all need to be fast enough to beat everyone to bronze. you may choose to wheel before you rush or during (and i would prefer before but recommend during) but then again its all about your timeliness to bronze which historically for minoans they had a flourishing early bronze age so that shouldnt be a problem should it?

Persia

Persia eles use up all food in DM. Eles and archers all cost food and gold. Cheaper archers means you can get something out during a major ele battle.

so what about the fact you now have elephant archers cheaper than the cavalry variant war elephant? that doesnt make sense does it? normally should be the vice-versa. the cheaper archers thing is acceptable but you still got to consider the above even if it seems meaningless.

However, since AoH has a particular unit Persia needs a bonus for - cheaper barracks is a more viable option. They get legions (which can be fully upgraded and are cheaper) - legions train 6 seconds faster now - meaning a DM tactic whereby eles and legions are used perhaps. 20% discount seems a fair start, and gives Peria a little hand in tool rushing...

we are talking about your RasPatch, AoH can wait. cheaper infantry also sounds good as legions are simply the persian immortals.

Persia has no bronze or iron market. Having double rush capabilities (axemen cost 40 food, slingers 32/8 for land and faster firing scouts at sea) should give them a chance to "hurt" the other player enough to semi-compete with eco. Hunting offers 70% more work rate and +3 carriage, but this is very micro intensive to get the full benefit.

again we were talking about RasPatch. the hunting bonus is good but remember once you are in the tool age, then its a different standard and beyond that hunting would become scarce.

Ele archers + priests can beat helepolis (ele archers draw in fire then priests start chanting - causes panic with heles as they now want to get within priest range but often too late!).

or helepolii can simply ignore the priests and simply quickly belt out the elephant archers OR even lets say there were heavy cats as well to smash, pound and destroy your priests!

Ele archers + priests are a last resort for hcats because you will lose gold (martyrdom trick) - works better with egypt. Still elephants are faster

just like the above, except even worse and you are likely to lose should you pull that.

DM

I hate DM and I hate siege

really? seems to be your favorite topic since you refer back to it even when i was talking about something generally. keep in mind RM can also eventually result in a sizable army. also why you hating on siege? because you are just not tough enough, sir. ;p

Again, the reason why eles are sent in first is because you can chuck out around 80 fully upgraded armored eles before catapults are even ready (let alone heavy cats).

you can do this but does that mean you dont have cats following close behind?

One unit rushes are larger and easier to manage than smaller combos (ele+hcat etc).

true. but that so much says your skill right there.

2.0 speed, 200 pop limit, hillz - standard DM settings. 80-100 AE against what, 30 AE+30cats (pre-hcats)+ballista towers (assuming micro allowed you to get this much up

) PLUS the next wave being the hcat??? GL

only 30 AE+30cats? even so the cats will pound down some if not many of the slow marching elephants and do a great deal of damage to the 80-100 AE. ballista towers protect cats and land. and the AE you have also protect as a buffer and can settle out the melee with the now weakened former 80-100 AE. plus if your next wave is hcat, then your AE can just simply stay where they are and act as a buffer for your hcats.

Siege

300 hp vs 150 hp COMPARED WITH 225 hp vs 150 hp = hitt win both (obviously proposed new hitt hcats have less hp remaining)

that is only 1 unit vs 1 unit. what about if there was 10 vs 10 with that extra stones and stray stones flying? then hitt can also lose the same as to the regulars. and the purpose of double hp for hittite is so they can withstand that.

300 hp vs scythes (iron start) - 19 to 24 hits required to take one out (range due to metallurgy)

provided if the scythes can get close to make this significant. i say increase min range rather than degrade the bonus (of double hp)

225 hp vs scythes (iron start) - 15 to 18 hits required to take one out (again, metallurgy)

i say again see above.

150 hp vs scythes (iron start) - 10 to 12 hits req (depends on metallurgy)

see first said.

Change reduces scythes required attacks to approx 4-6 hits (to destroy hcats)

the purpose of the bonus is NOT so someone else has it easier on the one with the bonus

Generally across other units it is around 5 hits difference (300 hp or 225 hp).

see above.

Again, maths cannot conclude anything because of other variables - ignore above

except the math and variables on the siege wars first said. of course i will ignore the melee units vs hcats part ;p

America

You better call this language American

it gets very confusing otherwise

its the same english if not considering more. elevator and lift are the same. friend and amigo are the same too. ;p

I wouldn't say "expanded" but mispelled many words (color, civilization etc...)

we either truncated or made the word look prettier (;

Weakness

What about lack of wheel, no ballistics etc - these are not weaknesses? A weakness is essentially something you cannot do/do not have etc - something which can be exploited (Palmy cannot rush, Persia "cannot" boom etc). A weakness is your "flaw" - in terms of things you cannot do or things others can do against you etc. Weakness is a characteristic as opposed to strength. A strength is something you have or can do which is (generally) better than the "standard".

those arent weaknesses. those are a lack thereof. others such as missing wheel are handicaps but certainly not a weakness per se. as far as aoe/ror refers to weaknesses, it is considered as something that goes against the civilization such as the old AoE persian farming example. others including starting with aok are simply 'we will give you this, but we will take away this' thereby giving them a 'strength' and a 'weakness'. a missing tech or unit is a lack thereof or a handicap if it is significant because the civilization still has its regular means and can make do elsewhere compared to something that hinders them. to put it in easier understanding, 0 is better than -1 or worse.

All civs have strengths and weaknesses because they have different tech trees AND bonuses which make up their characteristics...

all civs have characteristics of different tech trees and bonuses, but since ror eliminated negative bonuses, all civs have strengths. there are no weaknesses.

Numbers

Again, numbers mean little. You have to play the game to identify which current numbers could/potentially need changing then make a "trial and improvement" move where you make the change and test it out.

numbers mean quite a bit. but at least you are talking sense on the testing part. i do test.

In terms of testing: play the patch and state what you did and what happened (giving a comparison of what you would expect considering the original game).

i did and i stated examples.

All the changes have been discussed and reasoned previously. You need to state which ones you don't understand in the opening thread.

theres nothing i dont understand about when it is reasonably considered. simple reactionary answers or implying such including 'Hittite is OP. Let's reduce their hcat because I am too weak.' i and perhaps many others wouldnt understand (and will definitely complain). (;

General problems:

200 pop limit is the standard....

may i ask you why is 200 pop limit the standard?

Balancing

AoM = balanced via rock paper scissors, this is a specific gaming model which I will not be using

Good! this is AoE and its about pitting your best ultimate units to the fight (i.e. juggernaut owns all!)

AoK = far easier to use unit combos (formations etc)

the extra features such as gates and cheap wooden wall and conveniences such as shortcuts idle villager etc in aok would be nice but the weak attributes i would rather do without. archers and siege are not supposed to be weak, let alone pathetic.

AoE = need to tone down OP, boost UP therefore getting a bit closer to AoK level (note it could never be the same because of the interface, and unwilling to make drastic changes to archers and siege)

What? why do you need to tone down OP and 'boost UP' making no sense to be bit closer to AoK level? this is AoE/RoR and AoK (except the extra features and conveniences) SUCKS. We need sturdy units, we dont need any weak-ass units.

Ultimate and best units??? No, RM is about resource management (micro-skills) so that you can grow and fight appropriately. DM is about "ultimate and best units" - although not exclusively.

ultimate and best units meaning the best upgrade you can get to is an 'ultimate unit' which cannot be countered that easily (eg. juggernaut as the 'ultimate' warship owns all ships. you will need juggernauts of your own or some other ultimate unit such as hcats to take them down.) For RM, if the resources and time lasts that long, it can eventually get players to upgrade to the ultimate unit to fight to the death (such as cataphracts and legions). DM is a sure fire.

Specify why?: They get everything and OP hcats (and again, I repeat myself)
Against what?: Everything

that sounds like that one taunt 'I am weak. Please don't kill me. (Repeats again).' more like 'i cant beat them so i will weaken them instead. i will make it so i start at post-iron and them in the stone age.' ;p

But they are OP too excessively, plus get best backup units (techs and super units). They are capable against all civs.

OP too excessively? *as the King of Hatti* 'Well then you can kiss my grits.'
so what if they are capable against all civs? arent all civs capable towards all civs?

And which one is far far more likely AND do-able?

wall. what you really wanted me to answer that? and watch they do an early rush to prod your wall open that hasnt been fully built yet and then sneak onto you without being noticed.

So Egypt cannot win by starving them of gold, then using stone throwers with engineering to mop up towers etc and having ele archers/scythes and priests cornering the other player?

unless that player is a n00b and doesnt put anything on reserve including gold, then YES.

So they can win?

YES. what you want me to say?

So they can win?

See above.

It is only essential to make the next move - eco boom/grow and walling.

False. Not necessarily, in fact it is essential to speed up your first move to begin with once you hit bronze!

...so eles and hcats are not common?

so what about your choson wars or hha or simple brute force?

So you don't play GameRanger or IGZ/Voobly?

yes i do. i been playing ever since IGZ.

Sorry but you lose since he claimed victory first. ;p

6 villies on wood is not uncommon if rushing (remember you need over 2000 food and around 1000 wood to double jump). If you need more wood you probably have a second group chopping else where (such as near berries or gazelle/ele..).

so youve gathered 2000 food and still havent advanced? 'Well then, arrest in your foolery.' no wonder they outrushed you. ;p

Review Part 1: Enhancements

the idea here is to make single player games 200 pop limit as is the standard for multiplayer games.
- Civilisation unique bonuses improved to strengthen weaknesses some civs have "unplayable" weaknesses, that is to say similiar skilled players will find problems with certain strats against other players. The changes should make the weaknesses not so apparent (they will still be there, but the results of the game driven more by skill).

you know the idea of civilization bonuses is to add special strength characteristics to the civilization NOT make up for weaknesses. (i.e. lets see, that civ is notable with gold but doesnt have coinage so we will make them have an extra gold bonus.) kind of like we will give this to X but take X away so that it is not available. ;p

...about realism... Is it possible to make siege weapons 'repairable'? I mean, to have to repair them with villagers (like AoK) instead of healing them with priests (I think that's unrealistic :P)

What? HELL NO! and remember Rasteve 'I Rasteve, do not like realism', 'Real life is boring anyway'? i would even recommend make boats healable! with priest, dock or both! and we HATE AoK. its perhaps the worst of the age games because the units are so weak its pathetic. i would probably say only keep buildings repairable unless you see fit that to make them both healable and repairable! Please Rasteve do not degrade AoE/RoR to AoK.

and btw can you make priests heal at range?

Duan Xuan
Clubman

posted 12-02-09 11:16 AM ET (US) 255 / 269

Hmm, am I missing out on some very lengthy debate?...

Too long for me to read, haha.

Nacht Jaeger
Clubman
(id: RCM7525)

posted 12-02-09 11:17 AM ET (US) 256 / 269

*Comes in thread to check progress*

*Sees walls of text*

*Flees*

Nacht Jaeger - Ex AoEH Angel

Rasteve
Clubman

posted 12-02-09 03:31 PM ET (US) 257 / 269

Egypt

Volume you need to understand that giving Egypt AE and Scythes with all shields will have a far greater impact on DM than it ever would on RM.

The way to take out a nasty group of Helepolis is via micro, EA attack, priests convert and scythes add support (flank etc) AT THE SAME TIME. You test the other player's micro by hitting them in different directions and different ways. Resources - Egypt can afford to lose EA, Scythes and Priests to take out the Helepolis.

Yes, Scythes will suffer huge casualties but often removing towers between you and your enemy opens up a lot of the map, hopefully a way into their gold miners and farmers. The sacrifice can be worth it (if you are successful

WA and AE both fall to ballista towers in the same way - with the AE substaining 3-4 hits more. Giving Egypt AE will do little in these terms.

Experienced players (skilled or not!) know when they are beat. If they run out of gold and have not got into the Egyptian's "base" because of mass CA, EA, scythes and priests - they will resign! DM is essentially for quick games, there is no way they want to really continue the game using bowmen etc to see how long Egypt takes to rip them apart. Granted, some players love hanging onto the very end (waiting for you to destroy every house etc) but I wouldn't say that this is the "average player" - far from it. They are more likely to give an excuse "bad start" or "I was Palmy" etc before "GG"...

The Egyptian DM strat is very resilient - even against AE and HCats (seriously, converting 10 AE and then running them into the HCats pretty much helps your cause

Again, Egypt did not win the battle of Kadesh - they withdrew and Hittite held on. It is often stated as a stalemate, and only Egyptian sources consider it an Egyptian victory

.

Essentially there is no viable reason to add AE to Egypt as they have a workable strat. Scythes would be better with the shield but also remember they have more HP and now have 1 pierce

- again they are better than other chariots (and make the backbone of Egypt's DM strat. In terms of RM I don't think Egypt need anything, they are perfectly balanced in terms of how 200 pop games are played (archer wars and/or chariot wars - they have very good chariots and can train compies).

Realism

AoE is a game, any changes must be judged on gameplay.

If new or improved features also improve gameplay AND realism then this is good.

If new or improved features are based on realism but DO NOT improve gameplay this is bad.

Adding realistic elements is good but should only be done to improve gameplay. If Egypt can force a stalemate - this is good because it is different, it makes the opponent think from the start "i need to do some damage with this gold!", it also offers the opportunity to "GG" before the game is over, knowing full well the capabilities of Egypt if they hang on from "gold-unit" attacks.

Micro

Hotkeys are micro - as micro is judged on APM (actions per minute), and hotkeys allow for you to select and command units/buildings etc.

An attack is far more micro-intensive than economy because you want to "dance" units and use critical mass (archers).

StarCraft is considered one of the most micro-intensive games (and essentially the best players are judged on micro) - would you say the game is really that different from AoE (to back up your argument that AoE players are not judged on micro skills?).

Player skill is judged on micro, how do you expect to even rush without micro skills?

Macro

You are confused here - as everything you do surrounding a villager to farm or a builder to construct a granary etc is micro. The sum effects of all micro tasks make up macro...

Consider macro as "I have an economy" consider micro as "my farms are not idle"...you see here that no micro skills (idle villagers etc) suffer against players with micro skills

.

RM is fundamentally micro-driven. DM is far more about macro as you play at top speed, with sometimes 50+ villies idle! Unit groups are hard to directly control etc. RM is all about resource management

Rush

Again, macro has nothing to do with responding to a rush by "building 3 towers, counter-rushing their eco with cavalry and running away because you have the wheel" - as already pointed out the scenario you have given is completely fabricated (where did you get stone, resources for wheel and get to the iron age, get forwards in enemy base etc before they hit you clean with a cavalry rush?).

2 guys on stone need to be done 5-6 minutes into the game (for your 3 towers

), a further 1-2 on gold, 1-2 forwards and the remaining 10-12 villies giving you the resources to perform a cavalry rush, with wheel and 3 towers? At what time do you bronze? At what time does the other guy rush?

Considering similar skills - you need to wall/boom after a rush because you have a very weak eco, and your rush should have put the other player back a little (hopefully behind yourself). The walling protects your eco and/or booming gives you eco strength.

If your rush hits a wall your eco is not going to be able to match the player on the other side. If you move your eco to building military units (with 16 villies!) by the time that wall comes down the other player is going to have a backup plan (his large eco will have spread, will have better and more units etc). Even if you boost your eco and military at the same time, it will take a long time with only 16 starting villies.

Again, 3 towers with sentry upgrade and wheel is not do-able against a cavalry rush, and to think of it, probably not against any rush

Woodworking is very important AND IT DOES MAKE WOODCUTTERS CHOP FASTER!!! - also, you are meant to get it when bronze jumping (i.e. before you land in bronze).

The wheel is researched when hitting the bronze age, and often the first thing you hit when hearing that sound. However, you will already have 2-3 stables up on the enemy's doorstep and enough resources for 2 cavalry at least, which will also happen instantly. By the time the wheel is done your cavalry units will be ready and waiting for orders. The wheel goes towards recovering your eco and getting villies walling

Compie rushing etc...not really a rush - even the slower players should have walled before these guys come in (considering you want a wheel too).

Minoan's are natural boomers - meaning their compies are usually encountered in huge numbers.

Persia

Confusion perhaps? Archers are not cheaper - this was a suggestion.

Cheaper barracks units will help in the RasPatch, and a bonus I will add to the AoH (which will build from the RasPatch).

Immortals are very different from legions

Using EA and Priests to combat helepolis: both units are dangerous to the unit so helepolis cannot really ignore either. One as huge HP and can damage the heles, the other has distance and conversion capabilities, essentially turning helepolis on themselves.

Using EA and priests against catapults: risky but if you are at the stage where gold is scarce you may make the decision that your loss (martydom etc) is far less than if a group of enemy cats suddenly disappeared

Changes to the game, particulary super units and iron/late iron techs will have a big impact on DM.

RM is capable of fielding DM-like sized forces, but not as fast, not with the same techs, and often not in waves...

Hittite

that is only 1 unit vs 1 unit. what about if there was 10 vs 10 with that extra stones and stray stones flying? then hitt can also lose the same as to the regulars. and the purpose of double hp for hittite is so they can withstand that.

splash damage from extra stones effects both sides. In fact it will hurt non-hitt more (as it currently does) as they don't have the same level of hp.

provided if the scythes can get close to make this significant. i say increase min range rather than degrade the bonus (of double hp)

Even if they get to the front line it takes over 10 hits against a non-hitt hcat. That is more than enough time for other cats in the group to fire onto the front line. Again, hcats are more likely to die from friendly fire than anything else. Consider hitt - it is more like 20 hits which means scythes are never going to be sufficient at destroying these beasts

. The changes require scythes to hit them 4-6 hits less (for kill) and catapults can put up with 1 less friendly fire hit. This is not drastic for such an OP unit.

Americanish
Nothing can be considered "more English" than the English language

Weaknesses

Numbers

i did and i stated examples.

Where?

theres nothing i dont understand about when it is reasonably considered. simple reactionary answers or implying such including 'Hittite is OP. Let's reduce their hcat because I am too weak.' i and perhaps many others wouldnt understand (and will definitely complain). (;

Problem:
Hittite is OP. They have most Iron Age super units, techs and have bonuses in archery range (RM), navy (RM) and siege (RM/mostly DM). In RM they are considered a good civ but not essentially the best because of the huge number of game variables (including the ability of other player(s) stopping the civ getting to the iron age). In DM they are considered a good civ as they are capable of producing the standard AE + HCat strat, capable of scythe and capable of HHA. HCat bonus makes them walk through many civs will minimal effort (as not all civs have the ability to tackle siege which has all upgrades and bonus hp).

Solution:
Reduce catapult class bonus from 100% to 50%.

Stone Thrower was 150 now 112

Catapult was 150 now 112

Heavy Catapult was 300 now 225

Reduce missile class bonus from +4 to +2

Scout Ships was 9 pre-techs now 7 pre-techs

War Galleys was 10 pre-techs now 8 pre-techs

may i ask you why is 200 pop limit the standard?

That is how everyone plays online (GameRanger/IGZ/Voobly) plays the game - carried over from the Zone days.

AoM
I like AoM but there is no need to force the rock-paper-scissors method onto AoE. You get counter units, but it gets a little tedious having counters to the counter, which can counter that counter etc...it makes me dizzy in AoM chasing things around in circles.

AoK
A lot of features in AoK make the game much longer. TC attack stops very quick rushes, gates allow for far better defenses, markets allow for generation of required resources etc. This game requires less micro (which is why it has a different and broader fan base - micro is a tedious skill).

AoE

What? why do you need to tone down OP and 'boost UP' making no sense to be bit closer to AoK level? this is AoE/RoR and AoK (except the extra features and conveniences) SUCKS. We need sturdy units, we dont need any weak-ass units.

A civ can have a strong unit/strength

A strength cannot be OP (in terms of balance!)

Some weaknesses make certain civs very difficult to play.

No unit will be made weak. The biggest "drops" are Choson legions down 20hp and Hittite HCat down 75hp.

ultimate and best units meaning the best upgrade you can get to is an 'ultimate unit' which cannot be countered that easily (eg. juggernaut as the 'ultimate' warship owns all ships. you will need juggernauts of your own or some other ultimate unit such as hcats to take them down.) For RM, if the resources and time lasts that long, it can eventually get players to upgrade to the ultimate unit to fight to the death (such as cataphracts and legions). DM is a sure fire.

Juggernaughts - try packs of trireme, as they will soon blow the enemy gold supplies

RM - yes, super units are achievable but for one not likely and secondly the upgrade cost can be used to produce many more of their "ancestors".

DM - this is where I would say your statement is true. RM games are more micro/strategy orientated, with little or no-super unit usage. A lot of players are happy to see the iron age

that sounds like that one taunt 'I am weak. Please don't kill me. (Repeats again).' more like 'i cant beat them so i will weaken them instead. i will make it so i start at post-iron and them in the stone age.' ;p

It is a general consensus that siege, and in particular hittite, are OP.

OP too excessively? *as the King of Hatti* 'Well then you can kiss my grits.'
so what if they are capable against all civs? arent all civs capable towards all civs?

Er, no. Greek vs Assy, Minaon vs Roman etc are all one-sided RM games. In DM Assy, Shang, and even Palmy are not that good. What about Yamato against anyone with a ballista tower + scythe combo?

wall. what you really wanted me to answer that? and watch they do an early rush to prod your wall open that hasnt been fully built yet and then sneak onto you without being noticed.

Yes, I wanted you to admit that a wall is a very good counter to a rush.

YES. what you want me to say?

It was just in earlier posts that you pointed Persia and Macedon out as inferior civs.

False. Not necessarily, in fact it is essential to speed up your first move to begin with once you hit bronze!

You don't get it. You hit bronze upgrade with everything pretty much in place for the rush (gold miners, forwards etc) so that on hitting the age you can train the units. The wheel is not essential to the rush but the aftermath (unless going for CA). The point of micro-skills is to have 0 resources (all spent!), the rush puts the other player back in eco strength and then you move above them in overall strength. A well-timed cav rush can set the end of a game. What if 2 cav turn up and kill 6 woodies? What if 1 cav is still alive (picking off villies etc), what if the cav finds your TC and the rusher plots foundations around your base?

By the time the wheel upgrade is researched your cavalry will be ready - you move them in and have your town walled and/or boom

so what about your choson wars or hha or simple brute force?

These are specific settings and/or team games. The standard 1v1 is ele then hcat.

yes i do. i been playing ever since IGZ.

I suggest you go to the multiplayer forum and let everyone know your gameranger name

so youve gathered 2000 food and still havent advanced? 'Well then, arrest in your foolery.' no wonder they outrushed you. ;p

I hope you were joking here:

500 - tool
800 - bronze
650 - 13 extra villies (total of 16!)

Additional food required for techs, units etc.

you know the idea of civilization bonuses is to add special strength characteristics to the civilization NOT make up for weaknesses. (i.e. lets see, that civ is notable with gold but doesnt have coinage so we will make them have an extra gold bonus.) kind of like we will give this to X but take X away so that it is not available. ;p

Example: Greek SUCK in RM because someone runs in with CA and they cannot fight them (hoplites too slow, slingers crap, cavalry cost etc). This is a characteristic (greek weak in bronze/vs archers). I added a slinger bonus which lets them confront archers better. However, they are still weak - the chracteristic has not changed. This will allow for more interesting games, as the Greeks have a fighting chance of hanging onto the next age. Surely you can see this as an improvement.

You suggestion of giving Persia the wheel is more towards what you are accusing me of

What? HELL NO! and remember Rasteve 'I Rasteve, do not like realism', 'Real life is boring anyway'? i would even recommend make boats healable! with priest, dock or both! and we HATE AoK. its perhaps the worst of the age games because the units are so weak its pathetic. i would probably say only keep buildings repairable unless you see fit that to make them both healable and repairable! Please Rasteve do not degrade AoE/RoR to AoK.

and btw can you make priests heal at range?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Quoted from volume:
*rant about AoK - do not make AoE = AoK*

and btw can you make priests heal at range?

Wouldn't "healing" siege help macedon (think about it?).

In terms of priest healing range - no! I will take a deeper look but no (I do know how to make priests convert towers at range

). This is simply because of the engine (it would be also nice to have auto-heal

- helps reduce need for micro skills

).

@Duan: And I was looking for someone of your calibre to help me out here

@Nacht: You are lucky

Suggestion
Wheel - original game = gave +67% (or something similar) boost to villager speed. In RasPatch this was rounded to 70%. I may reduce this to 50 or 60% to help Mace and Persia

[This message has been edited by Rasteve (edited 12-02-2009 @ 03:41 PM).]

volume
Clubman

posted 12-06-09 07:47 AM ET (US) 258 / 269

Egypt

Rasteve, I understand plenty but what I don't understand is why you say that? You are not specific, and who cares about DM?

If you have all those units versus helepolis only then you are not likely to use micro. Don't tell me you use one unit per helepolis? The helepolii however, as a fewer or one unit could simply quickly belt down the scythes and EA and they can get the priests too after they quickly eliminate 'those who traitored'. Egypt maybe can afford to lose all that to take out helepolis but is it enough?

Yes, that is, IF they are successful. And who says they are successful? They are more likely to be piecemeal and perhaps wouldn't even faze the towers. You are HOPING the sacrifice would be worth it. That's kind of like you hope the enemy would ally you so you can take out their units without being massacred.

3-4 hits more? Are you serious? So are you saying the eles don't attack? AE can at least with siegecraft eliminate some ballista towers. Giving Egypt AE will help them better resolve this problem.

Like I had said. Do experienced players (especially skilled) or 'the more competitive' really get to the point of 'run out of gold'? I think we have set lower standards here.

Provided you can convert 10 AE before the HCats place a stone on their heads. Even if you do, the HCats will simply quickly mow down the AEs you just converted or seriously weaken them enough for the remaining AE you had originally to mete them out easily.

Again, Egypt won the 'actual' battle in the field of Kadesh. Hittite won Kadesh 'itself' because they withstood the siege because the Egyptians left. However, not for long because later the Egyptians became interested once again and this time actually took Kadesh. They then left and the Hittites regained control. Egypt once more came for Kadesh and took it again but they eventually left again and the Hittites came back.

Egypt without AE is not even viable at all. Their 'workable' strat is piecemeal and can only result in stalemate or 'hope' to win. Scythes would be better with the shields and I would say as the best chariots supposed to be better with all that and as well as including having more HP. Having 1 pierce is not enough and makes little to no difference. In terms of RM, giving them AE and all shields will make them still balanced and even better distinguished (;

Realism

A stalemate being different if real does NOT improve gameplay because the point of the game is to win. Nobody plays the game to lose or to just call it a tie. The opponent can just simply bully Egypt until they have weakened them enough to finally be engulfed or force them to attack and be destroyed. You of course do not underestimate Egypt, but as Egypt, it is sure no fun not to win and you can't win without an assault that can pour through with your offense.

Micro

Hotkeys are shortcuts - they are not micro because they do not require you to for example use the mouse to tediously click every button to get to something.

An attack is NOT more micro-intensive than economy because you attack. You don't necessarily 'dance' units and you certainly don't need to for critical mass.

StarCraft cannot be compared to AoE. Now that game is actually micro-intensive because you have to pay attention to every detail in how you obtain a resource for resource management and how you create what unit or structure to create what units and how they fight etc. There is no silver bullet. AoE however, is much more simple. You just simply manage both military and economy simultaneously and with that said is macro.

Player skill is judged on macro. Nobody can see how you click every unit and move the mouse etcetera including the fact they are not looking at your point of view but rather the whole gaming field. All they see is how you manage both military and economy simultaneously to win. Nobody cares what specific unit you select to how ever gather what resource or what one unit you use to attack one unit.

Macro

I'm not confused a bit. Selecting a villager to farm or a builder to construct a granary etcetera is simple management leading to macromanagement. Nothing micro-intensive or complicated there.

Consider macro as 'I have an economy and I am also defeating the enemy at the same time as well' consider simple management for 'my farms are not idle'...you see here there is no micro needed (no tedious I need to custom build my villager as a farmer before I can have him farm this etcetera) and no micro skills don't necessarily suffer against players with micro skills. In fact, if they have macro, they are usually better (;

RM is fundamentally simple management. After you got the resources going steadily, you can just switch to complete macro just as though you are playing a lesser extent DM. Although it's best to keep all your villagers not idle but who cares about one or two villagers standing around taking a break while you are concentrating on the 'next building or unit to destroy from 16 tiles away'? If you are really worried about that then just use simple management to give them another assignment. RM is about resource management but that is a simple management and macro when things get going simultaneously (;

Rush

Oh yeah? What about selecting all vills at once to attack by quickly erecting the towers and then melee? What about selecting all the cavalry you trained for your rush at once to respond? What about selecting all your separate vills elsewhere to run towards the enemy base and quickly erect a satellite economy and forward builds to make surprise? (Oh what? You can't do all this because you neglected the stone? You neglected to wheel? You neglected to bronze quickly enough? You for whatever reason were negligent that now you are 'talking' about iron instead of 'doing' what you are supposed to do? You were negligent that you didn't bother considering other options such as get forwards in enemy base?)

You are supposed to bronze at 13 mins on average. The other guy usually rushes the min to two after.

Now whats up with this 16 villies thing? You will need to do better than that.

Have you ever tried it? Don't tell me your 'micromanagement' got the best of ya (;

Woodcutters with woodworking collect 2 extra wood. So what? Anyways don't worry about that because I get that anyways before I land in bronze.

Now you get it. Wheel also gets your villies pumping faster more resources so you can get more cavalry to add to and reinforce your rush or to arm them and give them armor or both. And you were the one who said wheel isn't important to the rush? And you were the one who originally said you don't research wheel right away when you hit bronze? And you were the one who failed to see the big picture and decided to be cheap for no reason and not research wheel? ;p

Well considering you were the one who brought up Compie rushing. You will have to bronze really fast and your opponent had to be really slow to let this happen.

Persia

Okay, well that's because you just dropped that.

How cheaper can barracks units get?

Well, I suppose since there are no Immortals in the game but Persia has legions so they can act as Immortals. (;

The helepolii can simply ignore the priests, damage/kill as much EA as possible and when needed quickly kill the traitors before they do something and get the priests afterwards. Plus don't forget should the helepolii come with something else even worse (;

Using EA and priests against cats? GL, you will need it (;

DM

Isn't DM all about big and high impact anyways? So what?

But as time drags on, it can accumulate that in force. Including if the player had a strat to have 'reserves' for whatever reason such as guarding his town for the meantime.

Hittite

splash damage from extra stones effects both sides. In fact it will hurt non-hitt more (as it currently does) as they don't have the same level of hp.

Are you sure you have tested this at the lower HP? If should the Hittites survive, how much HP is left with them? How much fewer hacks are required to dispatch them now?

Even if they get to the front line it takes over 10 hits against a non-hitt hcat. That is more than enough time for other cats in the group to fire onto the front line. Again, hcats are more likely to die from friendly fire than anything else. Consider hitt - it is more like 20 hits which means scythes are never going to be sufficient at destroying these beasts . The changes require scythes to hit them 4-6 hits less (for kill) and catapults can put up with 1 less friendly fire hit. This is not drastic for such an OP unit.

Or if ballistics cause otherwise and for the ones too close for the cats to attack, the cats may all stand ground not fire and use the fewer cats in front to 'attack ground' or the player may be superaggressive and just fire all cats anyways regardless of casualties from friendly fire if that could save time? Oh, and don't forget the other units helping the cats nearby. ;p

Numbers

Where?

What about the siege wars resulting numbers and the numbers regarding how much they can withstand significantly in any such attack?

Problem:
Hittite is OP. They have most Iron Age super units, techs and have bonuses in archery range (RM), navy (RM) and siege (RM/mostly DM). In RM they are considered a good civ but not essentially the best because of the huge number of game variables (including the ability of other player(s) stopping the civ getting to the iron age). In DM they are considered a good civ as they are capable of producing the standard AE + HCat strat, capable of scythe and capable of HHA. HCat bonus makes them walk through many civs will minimal effort (as not all civs have the ability to tackle siege which has all upgrades and bonus hp).

Solution:
Reduce catapult class bonus from 100% to 50%.
Stone Thrower was 150 now 112
Catapult was 150 now 112
Heavy Catapult was 300 now 225

Reduce missile class bonus from +4 to +2
Scout Ships was 9 pre-techs now 7 pre-techs
War Galleys was 10 pre-techs now 8 pre-techs

your solution to the problem is reactionary and is because 'im too weak so i will reduce cats'. have you done any testing so far in regards of your action causing a reaction? including the siege wars thing i had said about? unlike the reduction of the warships range NOT missile class bonus that is justifiable because it balances with the choson and minoan tower and compie thing respectively.

That is how everyone plays online (GameRanger/IGZ/Voobly) plays the game - carried over from the Zone days.

Really? All this time I thought it was just chosen at luxury when I played with those. Also the Zone days I remember were either 50 or 255 only sometimes was it 200.

AoM
I like AoM too, but you do see why it is not necessary after all didn't you?

AoK
Yes, but with those lots of features also comes at a price to make the game much longer especially castles and against weaker units especially archers and siege even their best infantry and cavalry are weak also.

AoE

A strength cannot be OP (in terms of balance!)
Some weaknesses make certain civs very difficult to play.
No unit will be made weak. The biggest "drops" are Choson legions down 20hp and Hittite HCat down 75hp.

Well now you say cannot be OP in terms of balance. Did anyone propose giving bigdaddy units to somebody?

Weaknesses (in RoR) are eliminated so that is not of concern.

Darn right no unit will be made weak because weaknesses are eliminated. But ask you why did you reduce Choson legions? WTH you do that? For the Hittite HCat, you better do better than that than simply reduce them 'just because you are too weak.'

Juggernaughts - try packs of trireme, as they will soon blow the enemy gold supplies
RM - yes, super units are achievable but for one not likely and secondly the upgrade cost can be used to produce many more of their "ancestors".

Triremes - likewise packs of juggernauts will blow the enemy wood supplies (;

RM - true to what you said except some ultimate units are cheaper and/or achieve better in a conclusion on the long run i.e. legions and scythes etc.

It is a general consensus that siege, and in particular hittite, are OP.

Well that is because they are either n00bs and/or weak and/or couldnt handle it.

Er, no. Greek vs Assy, Minaon vs Roman etc are all one-sided RM games. In DM Assy, Shang, and even Palmy are not that good. What about Yamato against anyone with a ballista tower + scythe combo?

couldnt the above use cats and ballistae? Yamato can use hha or centurion + tower combo and engineer stone throwers to eliminate ballista tower.

It was just in earlier posts that you pointed Persia and Macedon out as inferior civs.

now where did i pointed them out as they were inferior civs?

*with a Nelson Muntz* haha!

You don't get it. You hit bronze upgrade with everything pretty much in place for the rush (gold miners, forwards etc) so that on hitting the age you can train the units. The wheel is not essential to the rush but the aftermath (unless going for CA). The point of micro-skills is to have 0 resources (all spent!), the rush puts the other player back in eco strength and then you move above them in overall strength. A well-timed cav rush can set the end of a game. What if 2 cav turn up and kill 6 woodies? What if 1 cav is still alive (picking off villies etc), what if the cav finds your TC and the rusher plots foundations around your base?

i get it plenty. i do get everything needed in place for the rush and then some. the wheel is essential to back up your rush besides for CA. i think you are confused with a different and perhaps off topic here - micro to have 0 resources all spent is what you do with starcraft. so is that your strat? you simply spend it all at once without necessity that it leaves your economy totally defenseless? i know the idea of the rush is to put the other player back in eco strength and then you move above them in overall strength but unless you are 'hoping' for that alone will wipe them out, you will need to not spend all your resources down to 0. im not saying dont use your resources but you will need to do better than that. it seems as though your cav rush is either piecemeal or weak based on what you said above that i could easily pull a counter-rush if desired. as a matter of fact, i have experienced that sometimes where i got cav outrushed but instead i chose to ignore his cav and go ahead and rush his 'all spent' eco instead and continue forward building on it. by what intuitive luck, i slaughtered his economy and then before he could do anything about it i then took out his remaining '2 cavalry'. so what if 2 cavalry showed up to kill my 6 woodies? what about my 3-4 cavalry killing his whole economy? if that 1 cav is still alive and even tries to pick off my villies then i would simply 'bone' it to death and/or have it get shot. that cav finding my town center then wouldnt even be an issue. if the rusher should plot foundations around my base, i would know about it and i would simply destroy his foundations before he could build them (as well as pick off a couple villes) (;

These are specific settings and/or team games. The standard 1v1 is ele then hcat.

so a 1vs1 ele and hcat cannot be a specific setting and/or team game? also yes it is a standard but you did not ask for standards you asked for 'common'. ;p

I hope you were joking here:

500 - tool
800 - bronze
650 - 13 extra villies (total of 16!)

Additional food required for techs, units etc.

yes i know the math, but are you saying you took all that trouble just to gather 2000 food and you did nothing else?

Example: Greek SUCK in RM because someone runs in with CA and they cannot fight them (hoplites too slow, slingers crap, cavalry cost etc). This is a characteristic (greek weak in bronze/vs archers). I added a slinger bonus which lets them confront archers better. However, they are still weak - the chracteristic has not changed. This will allow for more interesting games, as the Greeks have a fighting chance of hanging onto the next age. Surely you can see this as an improvement.

You suggestion of giving Persia the wheel is more towards what you are accusing me of

how about Example: Greeks are just being a wuss in RM because they couldnt have tool or cav rushed them first to prevent 'someone runs in with CA' or they couldnt have walled and/or towered to stop someone from running in with CA or they failed to use slingers properly to beat the CA. This is a chracteristic of (greek PLAYED weak in bronze/vs archers). It is not because Greek are actually weak. The slinger bonus you added is piecemeal and perhaps negligible providing the same player didnt play them right in the first place. slingers may be generally weak as an individual unit, i will give you that but they will be nothing but weak if not used properly. what about a mass of them? then their characteristic would not be weak. Improvement? Surely you jest?

My suggestion of giving Mace and Persia the wheel is to actually improve and raise them to higher standards NOT piecemeal them.

Quoted from volume:
and btw can you make priests heal at range?

that was a different topic from the aok. i only asked you if you were capable of doing such. i didnt ask you should.

Quoted from Rasteve:
Wouldn't "healing" siege help macedon (think about it?).

In terms of priest healing range - no! I will take a deeper look but no (I do know how to make priests convert towers at range ). This is simply because of the engine (it would be also nice to have auto-heal - helps reduce need for micro skills ).

that is why I asked to make them both healable AND repairable. allies can heal macedon anyways. and healing also eliminates the nonsense of using excessive resources just to repair like in AoK.

You do not need to make priests convert towers at range. also auto-heal was a reason why i suggested 'heal at range'. that may even make an overall improvement to the game.

Suggestion
Wheel - original game = gave +67% (or something similar) boost to villager speed. In RasPatch this was rounded to 70%. I may reduce this to 50 or 60% to help Mace and Persia

so now you are going to worsen and reduce to lower standards instead of trying to improve?

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph

posted 12-17-09 03:07 PM ET (US) 259 / 269

Well i haven't posted in a while and i see this discusion still went strong. I must get some time to read this. But in any case i think it's very little what i can add.

DeSirE
Clubman

posted 01-04-10 02:47 AM ET (US) 260 / 269

Rasteve, good luck with the RasPatch. I am looking forward to this as I am looking forward to your AoH patch. Recently I installed half of the RasPatch (version 0.5, lol) on 3 networked computers and loaded up a network game.. Unfortunately no computers could connect to the game "Could not join game" and we had to play with chocolate vanilla RoR (1.0a). If theres any way to play the patch in a LAN setting, could you please let me know? Much appreciated.

I would especially like to witness the extra fire damage and "superunit" bonuses in MP.

Aran
Clubman

posted 01-15-10 12:16 PM ET (US) 261 / 269

Suggestion:

AI

1)Computer without team is enemy for everybody
2)Ally computer will not be enemy after attack eles, catapults etc.

Basse
Clubman

posted 01-15-10 01:26 PM ET (US) 262 / 269

@DeSirE: Try to play via Gameranger, I have played aoh there. I have also played 0.5 Raspatch LAN but I didn't have any problems

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph

posted 01-16-10 12:42 PM ET (US) 263 / 269

Indeed Aran those suggestions are most welcome. I hate the low tolerance of the AI allies regarding the damage area of some units.

DeSirE
Clubman

posted 01-16-10 10:26 PM ET (US) 264 / 269

Thanks for the suggestion Basse, if the computers had internet I would definetely try Gameranger

.. as it stands though, I might do a complete reinstall and then patch ..

Do you know what version of RoR you have?

Basse
Clubman

posted 01-17-10 04:51 AM ET (US) 265 / 269

I have 1.0a but I have played both the raspatch and aoh at gameranger

Thompsoncs
Clubman

posted 01-17-10 06:24 AM ET (US) 266 / 269

Is there a way to give units advantages and weaknesses like in Rise of nations. For example artillery even stronger vs buildings but a lot more inaccurate and deadly vs units?

conborua
Clubman

posted 05-24-10 07:20 AM ET (US) 267 / 269

is your email is rasteveattalk21dotcom, right? rasteve . i wanna to ask u somethings

[This message has been edited by conborua (edited 05-24-2010 @ 07:29 AM).]

Basse
Clubman

posted 05-24-10 10:12 AM ET (US) 268 / 269

Rasteve hasn't been here for quite some time...

Suppiluliuma
AoEH Seraph

posted 05-30-10 10:25 AM ET (US) 269 / 269

Well write him a mail and see id he replies back.

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