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Topic Subject: Help me make a Japanese Civ!
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posted 04-01-04 01:36 PM EDT (US)   
Time to get organized.

Overview

-----

How will the Japanese be different than the other 4 Civs? Here is a quick summary of this Civ's strengths and weaknesses.

Major Strengths:

1. Japan's Fishing ships are noticibly better than those of other Civs, making water control a meaningful temptation.

2. Japan's Archers are top notch.

3. Japanese infantry is very formidible.

Weaknesses:
1. Although Fishing ships are very good, the Japanese navy isn't exceptional

2. Japan had little access to stone, meaning that their buildings and walls aren't nearly as strong as those of the Greeks or Egyptians.

3. Japan has good light-Calvary, but no heavy-Calvary unit.

4. Japan's Siege is also lackluster.


Unique buildings

-----

Onsen: The Onsen is a Japanese hot spring used to slowly heal injured units. It is very useful, but expensive to build.

Monastary: Unlike the pagoda temple, which is used to train MU's, the Monastary is a unique building designed to accomadate monks.

Barraks: The Japanese Rax building is used to train the lower-class units availible in classical, Daikyu bowmen, Ashigiru, and Bushi.

Castle: The Castle is where the aristocratic warriors of Japan reside, the Samurai swordsman, Mounted Archer, and Samurai Horseman.

Engineers Camp: This fairly inexpensive building is used to produce the less the impressive siege units.

Units

-------


Monks: Monks are a unique unit with many roles. Japan's Monks are heroes, but not warriors. Instead, their first role is to pray in their monastaries for favor. Monks do not accumulate favor quickly, but the process can be accelerated with the help of Warrior heroes, as described below. Against MU's, Monks do little damage, but can use a special stun attack to aid human units and warrior heroes. Worshipers of Ida-ten in the Mythic Age have the oppourtunity to upgrade their monks, making them more versatile and useful.

Ninja: Credit goes to Spectre for his Ninja, below

The Japanese Scout is the Spy. The Spy is a slow moving unit invisible to all units except scouts and heroes. He has the LOS of a priest when stationary and moving. The Spy can garrison in ANY building except Town Centres to rapidly increase his LOS. For example, if you want information on the enemies gold mining, just put a Spy in the Stockroom and you will gain LOS of the area around the gold mine.

The Spy is not targetable by building fire (if unspotted), so he can sneak into enemy bases. Walls are also traversed by the Spy. The only way to catch a Spy is to garrison inside the building or repair it (in the case of Non-Garrison buildings). The Spy has the following stats:

---Stats---
75HP
10% Hack Armour
10% Pierce Armour
99% Crush Armour
0 Hack Attack
0 Pierce Attack
0 Crush Attack
4.0 Speed

Special Attack: Stun Attack. Oranos' Shockwave attack on 1 human unit. Recharges in 5 seconds.

Other Notes: Invisible to all units except Heroes and Scouts (Only Odin can see Spy without Hersir, Ravens). The Spy is uneffected by Armoury Improvements

---Upgrades---
-Untitled Archaic Upgrade
Ninja HP +100%

-Untitled God Specific Upgrade 1 (Heroic Age) Upgrades spy to Ninja.
Converts the Stun attack into an Instant Kill attack. When the Instant Kill is initiated, the Ninja becomes visible to all units until it exits enemy LOS. Recharge time is doubled.

-Untitled God Specific Upgrade 2 (Heroic Age)
Ninja Hack and Pierce Armour +300%

---Fully Upgraded Stats---
150HP
40% Hack Armour
40% Pierce Armour
0 Hack Attack
0 Pierce Attack
0 Crush Attack
5.5 Speed

Special Attack: Instant Kill on any human unit. Recharges in 10 seconds

Other Notes: Invisible to all units except Heroes and Scouts. Becomes visible to all once Instant Kill is performed. Uneffected by armoury improvements.

Samurai Swordmaster: The Samurai is an elite heroic age unit trained in the Castle. The samurai is powerful against infantry and Calvary(although beaten by hard counters, like axemen) but is vulnerable to archers. Additionally, Samurai who score enough skills in battle can be upgraded to heroes. As heroes, they are vital in combating MU's effectively, but can also return to monastaries to gather greater favor from the Gods.

Daikyu Bowman: The Japanese longbow man is availible in classical, and the backbone of the army in any age.

Samurai Archer: A fast but lightly armored archer, this heroic age unit is a useful harasser and supliment to the Daikyu Bowman.

Samurai Horseman: This light Calvary unit armed with a spear is useful against archers, but cannot stand up to infantry.

Ashigiru: Trained peasent militia enters battle carrying a two-handed yari(spear). Swift and strong vs Calvary, but vulnerable to archers.

Bushi: Stout Swordsman availible in Classical, the bushi can defeat most infantry units(even Samurai), but is vulnerable to archers and Calvary.

Siege Units availible soon!

Titan: Sarutahiko Ohkami.The Japanese god of crossroads, pathways, and surmounting obstacles. He stands seven fathoms tall, with a massive beard and a jeweled spear. Holy light shines from his eyes, mouth, and posterior. Sarutahiko is the chief of the earthly kami and the husband of Ama-no-Uzume no Mikoto, the goddess of mirth, dancing, wifery, and health. He guards the bridge that links the heavens and the earth.


Pantheon:

Major Gods:

1. IZANAGI:
In Japanese Shinto-mythology, the primordial sky, the god of all that is light and heavenly. Izanagi ("the male who invites") and his wife and sister Izanami ("the female who invites") were given the task of creating the world. Standing on Ama-no-ukihashi (the floating bridge of the heavens), they plunged a jewel crested spear into the ocean. When they pulled it free, the water that dripped from the spear coagulated and formed the first island of the Japanese archipelago. Here the first gods and humans were born.


2. SUSONOWA:
The Japanese Shinto god of the winds, the storms, and the ocean, also the god of snakes. He was born from the nose of Izanagi, and was given dominion over the seas. His sister, the sun goddess Amaterasu, is also his consort. Susanowa (Susanoto) is the personification of evil, but also a brave, if lawless and impetuous, god. His outrages are not limited to the ocean; he also ravages the land with his storms and he darkens the sky, thus angering the 'eight million deities (the kami).

3. Amaterasu:
The Japanese Shinto sun goddess, ruler of the Plain of Heaven, whose name means 'shining heaven' or 'she who shines in the heavens'. She is the central figure in the Shinto pantheon and the Japanese Imperial family claims descent from her 1. She is the eldest daughter of Izanagi. She was so bright and radiant that her parents sent her up the Celestial Ladder to heaven, where she has ruled ever since.


Classical Gods

--------------

RAIDEN:
The Japanese god of thunder (rai) and lightning (den). He prevented the Mongols from invading Japan in 1274. Sitting on a cloud he sent forth a shower of lighting arrows upon the invading fleet. Only three men escaped. Raiden is portrayed as a red demon with sharp claws, carrying a large drum.

DAI-KOKU:
The Japanese god of wealth and protector of the soil and patron of farmers. He is one of the Shichi Fukujin. Called the Great Black One, he makes wishes of mortals come true. He is portrayed as a fat and prosperous man, standing or seated on two bags of rice and with a bag of jewels on his shoulder.

FUDO:
The most popular of the Myoo ("great kings") and the god of fire and wisdom. He is the fifth of the guardians of the heavens and the patron of astrology. He is called upon at the start of difficult undertakings, as well as in times of war, epidemics and disasters. Fudo protects against calamities, great dangers and fire and theft. He resides in a temple on the summit of Mount Okiyama surrounded by fire.

Heroic Gods

-----------

RYUJIN:
Luminous Being". The Japanese dragon god of the sea. Ryujin lives in Ryugu his palace at the bottom of the sea. His daughter Otohime (Toyo-Tame) married prince Hoori. The sea-king is depicted with a large mouth. Turtles are regarded as his messengers.

BENTEN:
The Japanese goddess of love, eloquence, wisdom, the arts, music, knowledge, good fortune and water. She is the patroness of geishas, dancers, and musicians. Originally she was a sea goddess or water goddess, on whose image many local deities near lakes were based. Later she became a goddess of the rich and was added to the Shichi Fukujin.

FUJIN:
The Japanese god of the wind and one of the eldest Shinto gods. He was present at the creation of the world and when he first let the winds out of his bag, they cleared the morning mists and filled the space between heaven and earth so the sun shone. He is portrayed as a terrifying dark demon wearing a leopard skin, carrying a large bag of winds on his shoulders.

Mythic Gods

-----------

IDA-TEN:
The Japanese Buddhist god of law and monasteries. His swift speed of movement is unmatched. He is represented as a handsome young man

BISHAMON:
The Japanese god to whom many functions are attributed, but he is mostly known as a god of war, the distributor of wealth and protector of those who worship the 'Lotus of the righteous Law'.

IZANAMAI:
In Japanese Shinto-mythology, a primordial goddess and personification of the Earth and darkness. Izanami ("the female who invites") is the wife and sister of Izanagi. Together they created Onogoro, the first island of the Japanese archipelago. She died gaving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi and since then she rules over the underworld.


Myth Units

------------

Kappa: The Japanese Kappa is a roughly man-size aquatic creature, who somewhat resembles a humanoid turtle with a bowl-shaped indention in his skull. This bowl holds the water that keeps the Kappa alive, and legend says the Kappa will die if it is ever spilled. The Kappa is much stronger than it's size would indicate, and a natural wrestler.

In game terms, the Kappa is an unique land/water hybrid. The Kappa is produced at the temple, and fights on land. However, the Kappa can swim, and regens HP's only in water or garissoned in friendly docks. This makes the Kappa useful as a water-based raider.

Special attack: Drown. The Kappa seizes an unwary human unit and pulls them into the water to drown. This attack will kill the unit, but takes several seconds to pull off.(The Kappa grabs the unit and moves slowly towards water. The farther away from water, the longer it takes) This attack cannot be used on enemy heroes of MU's. The Kappa receives only a x2 bonus vs enemy MU's, and is best used to seize workers and unwary soldiers.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
Some basic work on the Tengu:
Tormenting spirits from Japanese folklore. These bogeymen, with their long noses and beaks, live in mountains and forests and are especially after children. Their leader is Sojo-bo.

Traditionally, the Tengu is depicted as lithe humanoid with the head and wings of a crow. They are agile fliers, and have a reputation for swordsmanship.

In game, the Tengu is unique, a quick flying melee unit. While the Tengu is a swift flyer, they must land in order to use their katanas. They are superb harassment and support units, but lack the stanima to survive in the front-lines.

Tengu are only availible to worshipers of Fujin, the Demon God of Winds.

Sojo-Bo training. Sojo-bo, leader of the Tengu, was credited with instructing the famous Japanese hero, Yoshitsune, in the advanced martial arts of the tengu demons. Sojo-Bo training hones the skills of your tengu, increasing their damage and hack armor.

Yofune-Nushi Spawn: The Great Dragon Yofune-Nushi was an enormous sea serpent who demanded human sacrifice, else he would cause storms to sink fishing ships.

The Yofune-Nushi Spawn is a powerful Heroic Water MU Availible to Ryujin. It backs up its fighting skills with a powerful lightning attack.
------------------------

Yama-Ko: The Yama-Ko(Mountain Man) is a forest dwelling demon with the appearnce of a large hairy ape, and have great strength. He is however, easily calmed by a gift of rice.

The Yama-Ko is a Classical ranged unit availible to Dai-Koku. This wild demon can throw his spears with enough force to stun his targets briefly.
----------------------------------
Oni: The terrifying Oni is a classic Japanese Monster. These large green, horned, 3 eyed, man-eating Ogres with their signature tiger-stripes and spiked clubs are the quittessential boogeyman of Japanese society. The Oni is a powerful fighter with a dangerous roar attack, which lowers the damage of all adjacent human units for a brief time, as they are stricken with fear.

The Oni is availible to the classical God Fudo, and has two upgrades. Go-Zu-Oni, and Me-Zu-Oni, both of which result in a bigger, stronger, smellier, and all around nastier Oni.
------------------------------------------

Dragon: A hatchling descended from the Dragon ridden by the Godess Benten, the Dragon is a Heroic Age, Powerful flying unit that attacks with puffs of acidic vapor, causing pierce damage. The Dragons special attack is a larger cloud of acid that inflicts splash damage.

The Dragon is availible to worshipers of Benten.

---------------------------------------------------

Raiju: This classical myth unit, has the appearance of a large cat demon composed of lightning. This cat becomes agitated during thunderstorms, leaping from tree to tree.

This crazy cat is not a tough unit, but is very fast and has a leaping attack.
Thunderclap upgrade: The sound of Thunder drives Raiju into a frenzy, increasing jump-distance, and reducing cooldown by half.

Raiju is availible to worshipers of Raiden.
------------------------------------------

Kumo: These large spiders are known to lurk inside old castles, disguising themselves as heaps of clothes.

The Kumo is a Mythic age MU. This enormous Spider doesn't inflict much damage, but is very tough, and skillfully binds units with it's web attack.

The Kumo is availible to worshipers of Bishoman.
-------------------------------------------------

Shiku-Me: The Shiku-Me is a female devil tasked with dragging the souls of the wicked down to hell. The Shiku-me looks like a suprising attractive woman, if you don't count the horns, wings, and long claws. The Shiku-Me is strong and fast, but most terrifying is it's special attack. Upon spotting an unrepentent sinner, the Shiku-Me orders Ghostly Hands to rise up and drag the poor victim directly to the fiery depths of hell.

The Shiku-Me is availible to followers of Izanamai.
-----------------------------------------------------

Kirin: The Kirin is the Japanese version of the unicorn, a one-horned stag with the mane of a lion. The Kirin is a protector of the just, but doom to the wicked.

The Kirin isn't the strongest MU on the block, but it is fast and does x4 damage to enemy MU's. Additionally, the Kirin's special attack calls on it's powerful magic to raise the armor of adjacent friendly units. The Kirin is best used for support and is availible to worshipers of Ida-ten.
--------------------------------------------------------

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-05-2004 @ 06:15 PM).]

Replies:
posted 04-01-04 07:33 PM EDT (US)     1 / 72  
I've seen a few asian films and you could have Bowmen with huge bows. Some bows are like 1.5 times the size of the archer! THey could have immense range, but low rate of attack (kind of like Gastaphretes).

My idea for making heroes is based on an honour system. ANY human unit can become a hero if they kill a pre-determined amount of enemies. This means that the strongest and worthiest units will be converted into heroes. Weak units will need less kills but Samurai Swordsmen could have a low amount (so they could be the 'typical' hero unit)

Plus, you gotta have the god Raiden somewhere in the civilisation . Supposedly, the only way you could hide from this god was under a mosquito net, so his GP could make your army temporarily invincible against Myth Units and God Powers

Just some ideas. I was thinking of doing a Japanese civ, but my only way of getting info is with the Encyclopedia Mythica.


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!
posted 04-01-04 08:12 PM EDT (US)     2 / 72  
Cool, we can always work together to make a more polished Civ. I do like your "honour" idea. I'll probably incorporate that. Since the Monks are mostly buhdist, I could probably associate all monks(including Sohei) with a buhdist faction. Maybe alongside a "Divine Emperor" and "traditional mythology" faction.(Names not set in stone obviously)

As for the archers, you're right. Japanese bows are around 6 feet tall, but with the grip closer to the bottom, making it easier to fire them from a kneeling or mounted position. Not sure how to reflect that exactly, but I think I'll suggest Japanese archers being a little stronger overall.

In terms of buildings, I've found that the Japanese had very little stone to work with, so they preferred Wooden Castles built on high-ground, and reinforced with earthbanks.

Also, my searching has turned up information on earlier Japan than I was aware of. Pretty much from 300BC-400AD, the Japanese were a hunter-gatherer culture who focused on infantry+archers.(Horses were introduced around 400AD) Warfare in this period was based almost entirely around sheild walls and rigid infantry formations(swords), backed by archers. Once horses were introduced, however, infantry was reduced to skirmishers, and was never again considered important.

Also noteworthy is that Women emperors were the norm for centuries, including around the time that the rulers claimed divine lineage from their son god.

Anyway, in game terms, I think I could see the Japanese as relying on Infantry/archers in Classical, then upgrading mostly to Calvary, Mounted Archers, and Samurai in later ages. Since they didn't make much use of spearmen until much later, Early vulnerability to Calvary should be an exploitable weakness.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 03:48 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 00:05 AM EDT (US)     3 / 72  
4 the idea of havin infantry and archers in ages 1 and 2 and cavalry after then maybe they could be able 2 get all their soldiers in the first 2 ages but then be able 2 upgrade all these soldiers to horseback- the same soldiers but faster and more hp.
An idea for a mu is the oni- a small weak demon but if you have 10 oni you could fuse them 2gether 2 make a big powerful dragon called an oni lung.
Another is an akuma- a giant demon with wings and a sword of fire its special attack could be a flaming hack which burns the enemy 2 ashes.
And a naval mu could be the kappa- a swimming monkey demon with a turtle shell and a hollow head.

Who has signatures these days?
posted 04-02-04 01:28 AM EDT (US)     4 / 72  
Don't forget Chu-ko-nu, the crossbowman who could fire at a fast, rapid rate. If you'd like it, I could help out a bit.

For Mu's, you could use Dragons.

Don't know if you already had it, but how about Samurai?

I'll do some research on gods, and make a line-up. Not hard, I know good resources.

posted 04-02-04 09:11 AM EDT (US)     5 / 72  
I did mention Samurai. An absolute must, really.

The Cho-ku-nu was a Chinese innovation, so I don't think I'll use that. We already have the Daikyu(longbow) archer and Calvary archer, so I'd say they've got piercing covered.

I'm very interested in God/MU suggestions.

Also, anything you could find on siege equipment would be good. All I've ever come across in terms of siege was how Samurai liked to sneak in at night and start fires. Maybe a sneaky, "Arson" siege unit?

Ninja would be pretty cool as well, but I've got to re-check what time period they show up. They might arrive too late to be included.

posted 04-02-04 09:43 AM EDT (US)     6 / 72  
Well in my designing of a Japanese Civ, I started with the ninja because I think I have a cool idea. So far it's the only unit i've designed. Below is my idea

it is only a prototype and is available for any modifications if need be

-----------------------
Ninja

The Japanese Scout is the Ninja. The Ninja is a slow moving unit invisible to all units except scouts and heroes. He has the LOS of a priest when stationary and moving. The Ninja can garrison in ANY building except Town Centres to rapidly increase his LOS. For example, if you want information on the enemies gold mining, just put a Ninja in the Stockroom and you will gain LOS of the area around the gold mine.

The Ninja is not targetable by building fire (if unspotted), so he can sneak into enemy bases. Walls are also traversed by the ninja. The only way to catch a Ninja is to garrison inside the building or repair it (in the case of Non-Garrison buildings). The Ninja has the following stats:

---Stats---
75HP
10% Hack Armour
10% Pierce Armour
99% Crush Armour
0 Hack Attack
0 Pierce Attack
0 Crush Attack
4.0 Speed

Special Attack: Stun Attack. Oranos' Shockwave attack on 1 human unit. Recharges in 5 seconds.

Other Notes: Invisible to all units except Heroes and Scouts (Only Odin can see Ninja without Hersir, Ravens). The Ninja is uneffected by Armoury Improvements

---Upgrades---
-Untitled Archaic Upgrade
Ninja HP +100%

-Untitled God Specific Upgrade 1 (Heroic Age)
Converts the Stun attack into an Instant Kill attack. When the Instant Kill is initiated, the Ninja becomes visible to all units until it exits enemy LOS. Recharge time is doubled.

-Untitled God Specific Upgrade 2 (Heroic Age)
Ninja Hack and Pierce Armour +300%

-Untitled God Specific Upgrade 3 (Classic Age)
Ninja Speed +1.5

---Fully Upgraded Stats---
150HP
40% Hack Armour
40% Pierce Armour
0 Hack Attack
0 Pierce Attack
0 Crush Attack
5.5 Speed

Hero Bonus: Instant Kill Myth Units, no other upgrades

Special Attack: Instant Kill on any human unit. Recharges in 10 seconds

Other Notes: Invisible to all units except Heroes and Scouts. Becomes visible to all once Instant Kill is performed. Uneffected by armoury improvements. The Ninja becomes a hero once it has killed 3 enemies.

Description: The Ninja is the standard Japanese Scout Unit. He's best used in couple with raids as he can get instant LOS of enemy resource buildings. The Ninja is useless in combat, but has a stun attack to help him evade if caught. The god [insert god name here] can improve your Ninja significantly, turning them into the lethal assassins feared by all.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Hope you like it!

God Suggestion
My suggestion for a god (previously mentioned) would be 'Raiden'. The following decription is taken from the Encyclopedia Mythica

"The Japanese god of thunder (rai) and lightning (den). He prevented the Mongols from invading Japan in 1274. Sitting on a cloud he sent forth a shower of lighting arrows upon the invading fleet. Only three men escaped. Raiden is portrayed as a red demon with sharp claws, carrying a large drum. He is fond of eating human navels. The only protection against him is to hide under a mosquito net."

This has given me ideas for his main things...

1. Navel Warfare? - It says he is fond of eating human navels, so his Myth Unit could be a Sea Serpent of some sort that it comparable to the Kraken. He could have some sea bonuses

2. Archers? - He stopped the MOngols with Lightning Arrows, so maybe he could have a tech that boosts archer attack

3a God Power?
Lightning Arrows
Raiden sends forth a shower of Lightning Arrows, damaging the enemy and stunning them for a small amount of time. This God Power can work on Water and Land.

Similar to Lightning Storm (but less damage) and Shockwave (similar amount of Stun time).

3b God Power?
Mosquito Net
Raiden encompasses your troops with the Mosquito Net, making them temporarily uneffected by God Powers and Myth Units.

This would be good for Anti-Titan fights and blocking Ancestors when you know it's coming. It could be Universal Effect (e.g. Flaming Weapons) or it could be Area Effect (e.g. Bronze). A great GP for rushes or sudden attacks.

Final Notes
Raiden will probably be a Classic Age god, if he has the Mosquito Net GP. It will be either Heroic or Mythic if he has the Lightning Arrows GP. My idea would be for a Sea Serpent Water MU (maybe NO land MU to make him balanced?).

What do you think?


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!

[This message has been edited by Sp3ctre (edited 04-02-2004 @ 09:57 AM).]

posted 04-02-04 10:36 AM EDT (US)     7 / 72  
Personally on my own opinion, the ninja should be fast with 6.0 speed and at least 4 attack. Perfect for raids. But good idea for garrison LOS increase but making him invisible is kind of silly.

Some help with your Sea Myth Unit:
Carp (from Mythology that lived in Lake Biwa and ate people who drowned there.)
Carp:
Cost 200 gold, 17 favor
Population:4
Hack Damage:24
HP:750
Hack Armor:30%
Pierce Armor:80%
Crush Armor:80%
Speed:5.7
LOS:17

posted 04-02-04 10:39 AM EDT (US)     8 / 72  
Love Raiden, although I'm torn between the two GP's. Overall, I think that mosquito net would be more interesting gamewise, while lightning arrows would be a good archer upgrade. We just need to find a good water MU.

Speaking of which, here's my first attempt at a MU, the Kappa.

Kappa: The Japanese Kappa is a roughly man-size aquatic creature, who somewhat resembles a humanoid turtle with a bowl-shaped indention in his skull. This bowl holds the water that keeps the Kappa alive, and legend says the Kappa will die if it is ever spilled. The Kappa is much stronger than it's size would indicate, and a natural wrestler.

In game terms, the Kappa is an aquatic raider. Unlike most water-myth units, which are used to gain naval dominance, the Kappa fights only on land. However, the Kappa can survive only a short time(30 seconds or so) on land, and must then take refuge in the water to refill his bowl and regenerate Hit points. The Kapa only regens health in water, but also when garissoned in a friendly dock.

Special attack: Drown. The Kappa seizes an unwary human unit and pulls them into the water to drown. This attack will kill the unit, but takes several seconds to pull off.(The Kappa grabs the unit and moves slowly towards water. The farther away from water, the longer it takes) This attack cannot be used on enemy heroes of MU's. The Kappa receives only a x2 bonus vs enemy MU's, and is best used to seize workers and unwary soldiers.

Since the Kappas a turtle, I figure he can do hack damage, and has high armor but low hit points. Probably a heroic unit.

I love your ninja. Very flavorfull if a bit extreme. We can always tweak it a bit as we go. Now we just need to find a Ninja god......

Edit: Just noticed the Carp. Looks good, if a little bland. Every Myth Unit should have either a special attack or special quality. Say....what if we give Raiden the carp, AND the Kappa. That would make him very water based, but still able to use myth units against land.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 10:56 AM).]

posted 04-02-04 11:06 AM EDT (US)     9 / 72  
Found chart of Japanese Gods:
Gods:
Izanaki(major)
Oyamatsumi
Susanoh
Hononingi
Ohkuninushi(major
Hoori
Hoderi
Ugayahukiaezu
Jinmu

Goddess
Izanani(major)
Amateras
Kushinadahime
Iwanagahime
Konohananosakuyahime
Toyotamabime
Tamayoirbime
Kushinadahime



You come to Canada to drink our manly beer, not your sissy dry stuff. Come get drunk in Canada.
posted 04-02-04 11:31 AM EDT (US)     10 / 72  
Edit: See my pantheon choices below. No point rehashing information.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 03:36 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 12:11 PM EDT (US)     11 / 72  
I'm not really interested anymore. GL with it, use www.pantheon.orgfor resources. Really good site. Bye.
posted 04-02-04 12:15 PM EDT (US)     12 / 72  
Pretty-much drowning in mythology at the moment...Found one more God I definately want to use. Ida-ten, buhdist god of law and monks. I'll use this guy as a Mythic age god who upgrades his monks to sohei.

I'm not quite certain what to do with monks yet. Slaying monsters was the work of heroic warriors, but monks can drive of or dissuade monsters. I'm thinking of using monks as a "soft" counter to MU. Better than nothing, if none of your units have achieved hero status, but not killer. I want a secondary role for them though.

posted 04-02-04 12:47 PM EDT (US)     13 / 72  
Yeah, I'm on an edit spree. Making this thread more digestible to newcomers.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 03:50 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 12:59 PM EDT (US)     14 / 72  
^Yes^

With the Hero system, the Japanese will be even worse than Gaia at countering early MUs. They need a unit like the Jarl to counter early attacks (till the Heroes appear). Your Monk would be a good idea. You said you needed a secondary function, maybe the Monk could be a morale booster (kind of like a flag bearer). If a Monk is within 20 range or something, all units get a small boost to their HP (or armour/attack). The Monk is religious so he would be a morale boost in real life.

Just an idea

THe thing is, the Ninja needs some camoflague. If he appeared to the enemy how would he sneak into buildings (especially early game)? I don't believe he should have an attack though, at least not until Ninja God phase. People would just spam Ninjas and own the enemy in Archaic! The Ninja weren't warriors anyway, they were servents to the lord of the land and were primarily thieves.

Izanagi is probably a must have god. If you want to keep true to AoM you need...
1. One leader of the gods (Zeus, Ra, Oranos, Odin)
2. One Dark/MU related god (Set, Hades, Kronos, Loki)
3. One popular god (Isis, Thor, Gaia, Poseidon)

The Major gods should be like this.

That god Fudo could be the one who has the Oni MU, as he has that rope to tie Demons with. He could have some building focus as he protects from "calamities, great dangers, fire and theft"


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!
posted 04-02-04 01:07 PM EDT (US)     15 / 72  
Zap, getting into detail is what makes this interesting! I like the Kappa idea, very inventive. However, what if the map has no water? Maybe Raiden could get a Unique Building - The Fountain, which enables Kappas to regen and Instakill nearer to the battle?

Well the villagers have to be the wives of the warriors! Like in the Last Samurai!


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!
posted 04-02-04 01:35 PM EDT (US)     16 / 72  
All right, Spectre, if your with me, I'll keep on going.

I agree that Ninjas should be concealed. Thats the whole point!

The Raiden fountain idea is interesting. I was thinking of some sort of morale boosting ability for the monks.

All right then, what I'm looking for now is

1. Favor generation

2. Unique economy aspects(Like eggy empower, norse carts, ect.)

3. Buildings and siege units. One thing I've found is that the Japanese used giant bamboo sheilds to provide cover for their archers. Maybe a seperate unit that can "garrison" 2-3 archers and provide pierce armor?

4. Healing. Every civ has at least one source of healing. this is very important with the Samurai kill system.

As far as Pantheon goes, lets see......


Sarutahiko Ohkami: The Japanese god of crossroads, pathways, and surmounting obstacles. He stands seven fathoms tall, with a massive beard and a jeweled spear. Holy light shines from his eyes, mouth, and posterior. Sarutahiko is the chief of the earthly kami and the husband of Ama-no-Uzume no Mikoto, the goddess of mirth, dancing, wifery, and health. He guards the bridge that links the heavens and the earth.

When Ninigi no Mikoto, the August Grandson of Amaterasu Ohmikami, was preparing to descend to the earth and take possession of it, his scouts found that one earthly god remained rebellious and would not submit to Ninigi's rule. This was Sarutahiko, and as he guarded the Bridge of Heaven, Ninigi could not descend until the giant god swore fealty to him. You know....this guy might make a good titan

For Myth Units, I've found:

1. Oni. Obvious choice.

2. Dragons. This could be a major benefit of the Godess Benten. And Ryujin of course.

3. Kijo. Wood Ogre.

4. Raiju. Thunder animal. Kinda an electric fox who goes crazy when it hears thunder.

5. Ki-rin. Unicorn with magic powers.

6. Kumo. Giant Spider.

7. Mountain Man. 9 foot ape who likes rice.

8. Mountain Woman. Flying Demoness who scoops up and eats people. Insect wings.

9. Centipede. Poisenous monster "the size of a mountain"

10. Tengu. How could I forget Tengu? The leader is named Sojo-Bo. Sojo-Bo upgrade........

11. Yofune-Nushi. Here's our sea serpent. It demanded animal sacrifices, or it would cause storms to sink fishing boats. How perfect is that?

12. Yuki-Ona. The snow queen.

13. Uwibami. Flying Serpent. Eats people whole.

14. Shojo, naked sea-dwellers with healing wine. Could just be a healing upgrade.

15. Shiko-me. Some sort of female devil

16. Samebito. Black monster with glowing eyes and and a spiked beard. Kicked out by Ryujin. Actually friendly.

So yeah, lots to work with.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 03:45 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 03:09 PM EDT (US)     17 / 72  
Eureka! Ok, I finally got some ideas.

Healing will be taken care of by the Civs new building, the Onsen(hot spring). Units garrisoned in the traditional japanese inn(complete with hot springs and Geisha) slowly regen health. Some Minor God will have a "Shojo" upgrade, using the sea-sprites magical healing wine to enhance the speed at which units are healed.

However, I don't want people spamming Onsens all over the map, so I'll say that Onsen's are fairly expensive and can only be constructed alongside Town Centers. The building won't be overly strong, so it can't be used as a fortress.

That takes care of one problem. Now I'm looking at ways to work with the Emporer/Daiymo feudal dynamic. And favor generation, of course.

Anyhow, Pantheon. Finished. I'll use Fujin as my ninja god.

Major Gods

IZANAGI:
In Japanese Shinto-mythology, the primordial sky, the god of all that is light and heavenly. Izanagi ("the male who invites") and his wife and sister Izanami ("the female who invites") were given the task of creating the world. Standing on Ama-no-ukihashi (the floating bridge of the heavens), they plunged a jewel crested spear into the ocean. When they pulled it free, the water that dripped from the spear coagulated and formed the first island of the Japanese archipelago. Here the first gods and humans were born.


SUSONOWA:
The Japanese Shinto god of the winds, the storms, and the ocean, also the god of snakes. He was born from the nose of Izanagi, and was given dominion over the seas. His sister, the sun goddess Amaterasu, is also his consort. Susanowa (Susanoto) is the personification of evil, but also a brave, if lawless and impetuous, god. His outrages are not limited to the ocean; he also ravages the land with his storms and he darkens the sky, thus angering the 'eight million deities (the kami).

His little pesterings, especially against his sister, proved his undoing: he looses his beard, his fingernails, and all his possessions, and is banished. He wanders the earth and has many adventures, such as the slaying of the eight-headed snake Koshi and by defeating this monster he obtained a powerful sword, called Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi ("grass cutting sword"). Some other feats were conquering Korea and wiping out the plague. Okuni-Nushi, his son, eventually tricked him out of the sword.

AMATERASU:
The Japanese Shinto sun goddess, ruler of the Plain of Heaven, whose name means 'shining heaven' or 'she who shines in the heavens'. She is the central figure in the Shinto pantheon and the Japanese Imperial family claims descent from her 1. She is the eldest daughter of Izanagi. She was so bright and radiant that her parents sent her up the Celestial Ladder to heaven, where she has ruled ever since.

When her brother, the storm-god Susanowo, ravaged the earth she retreated to a cave because he was so noisy. She closed the cave with a large boulder. Her disappearance deprived the world of light and life. Demons ruled the earth. The other gods used everything in their power to lure her out, but to no avail. Finally it was Uzume who succeeded. The laughter of the gods when they watched her comical and obscene dances aroused Amaterasu's curiosity. When she emerged from her cave a streak of light escaped (a streak nowadays people call dawn). The goddess then saw her own brilliant reflection in a mirror which Uzume had hung in a nearby tree. When she drew closer for a better look, the gods grabbed her and pulled her out of the cave. She returned to the sky, and brought light back into the world.

Later, she created rice fields, called inada, where she cultivated rice. She also invented the art of weaving with the loom and taught the people how to cultivate wheat and silkworms.

MINOR GODS

RAIDEN:
The Japanese god of thunder (rai) and lightning (den). He prevented the Mongols from invading Japan in 1274. Sitting on a cloud he sent forth a shower of lighting arrows upon the invading fleet. Only three men escaped. Raiden is portrayed as a red demon with sharp claws, carrying a large drum. He is fond of eating human navels. The only protection against him is to hide under a mosquito net.

IDA-TEN:
The Japanese Buddhist god of law and monasteries. His swift speed of movement is unmatched. He is represented as a handsome young man

FUDO:
The most popular of the Myoo ("great kings") and the god of fire and wisdom. He is the fifth of the guardians of the heavens and the patron of astrology. He is called upon at the start of difficult undertakings, as well as in times of war, epidemics and disasters. Fudo protects against calamities, great dangers and fire and theft. He resides in a temple on the summit of Mount Okiyama surrounded by fire. No one was allowed to see him seated in his sanctuary on pain of blindness. His priest Yenoki lived on, after his death, in a tree, watching over the moral conduct of the country people.

Fudo is represented as an ugly old man surrounded by flames with a sword in his right hand and a rope, to tie demons with, in his left hand.

IZANAMAI:
In Japanese Shinto-mythology, a primordial goddess and personification of the Earth and darkness. Izanami ("the female who invites") is the wife and sister of Izanagi. Together they created Onogoro, the first island of the Japanese archipelago. She died gaving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi and since then she rules over the underworld.

Her husband went there to take her back with him, but she refused. By sealing the entrance to the underworld she tried to imprison him, but Izanagi managed to escape. Furious, Izanami vowed to kill one thousand of Izanagi's subjects a day, and Izanagi vowed to create fifteen hundred new ones a day.

BENTEN:
The Japanese goddess of love, eloquence, wisdom, the arts, music, knowledge, good fortune and water. She is the patroness of geishas, dancers, and musicians. Originally she was a sea goddess or water goddess, on whose image many local deities near lakes were based. Later she became a goddess of the rich and was added to the Shichi Fukujin. The island of Enoshima rose up especially to receive her footsteps.

Benten is portrayed as a beautiful woman, riding a dragon while playing on a stringed instrument. She has eight arms and in her hands she holds a sword, a jewel, a bow, an arrow, a wheel, and a key. Her remaining two hands are joined in prayer. It is often related that when a dragon devoured many children, she descended to earth to stop his evil work.

BISHAMON:
The Japanese god to whom many functions are attributed, but he is mostly known as a god of war, the distributor of wealth and protector of those who worship the 'Lotus of the righteous Law'. He was successfully invoked by Prince Shotoku in 587 during the campaign against the anti-Buddhist clans of Japan. He protects against demons and diseases, and a guardian of one of the four cardinal points (the North).

Bishamon is one of the Shichi Fukujin . He appears in iconography as a powerful monarch, in full armor, standing on demons and holding a spear in his hand, but sometimes wearing a wheel of fire like a halo.

DAI-KOKU:
The Japanese god of wealth and protector of the soil and patron of farmers. He is one of the Shichi Fukujin. Called the Great Black One, he makes wishes of mortals come true. He is portrayed as a fat and prosperous man, standing or seated on two bags of rice and with a bag of jewels on his shoulder. On his chest he has a golden sun disk and in his hand he holds a magic mallet (with male and female symbols) which fulfils all wishes. His familiar is the rat, and he is a friend of children.

RYUJIN:"Luminous Being". The Japanese dragon god of the sea. Ryujin lives in Ryugu his palace at the bottom of the sea. His daughter Otohime (Toyo-Tame) married prince Hoori. The sea-king is depicted with a large mouth. Turtles are regarded as his messengers.

Ryujin controls the tidal flows with the magical Tide Jewels. Many centuries ago the Empress Jingo planned an invasion of Korea. She prayed to Ryujin and sent the beach-god Isora to his temple. There he was given the Tide Jewels for the empress. The Japanese fleet then set sail towards Korea and the Korean fleet sailed out to confront them. When she saw the approaching fleet, Jingo quickly threw the Low Tide Jewel into the sea so that the tide receded at once and the Korean fleet was beached. The Koreans all jumped out onto the mudflats but at that moment the empress threw the High Tide Jewel and a tidal wave drowned the men. The tidal wave carried the Japanese fleet on to the coast, into the harbor and to victory. Later Ryujin personally presented the Tide Jewels, on a beautiful pink shell, to Prince Ojin, Empress Jingo's son.

FUJIN:
The Japanese god of the wind and one of the eldest Shinto gods. He was present at the creation of the world and when he first let the winds out of his bag, they cleared the morning mists and filled the space between heaven and earth so the sun shone. He is portrayed as a terrifying dark demon wearing a leopard skin, carrying a large bag of winds on his shoulders.

So thats my 12....what do you think?

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 03:54 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 03:13 PM EDT (US)     18 / 72  
I think the Samurai could be a heroic age elite unit made from their fotresses. Maybe could be good against archers and cavalry.

The best clan ever is TOAO Clan!
posted 04-02-04 03:31 PM EDT (US)     19 / 72  
man, you got a LOT of work to do

Uwibami is a cool creature. I can imagine a sort of LOTR-esque flying serpent thing (can't remember the name).

Susanowa is a good choice for an evil god. Do you know that Ryujin (the Dragon god of the sea) had messengers who were turtles? Your Kappa could be gained through the worship of Ryujin.

Well if you need any help or suggestions, just post here and i'll be happy to help


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!
posted 04-02-04 03:42 PM EDT (US)     20 / 72  
I have my pantheon now, take a look! and yes, I'm making Kappa a Ryujin unit. Raiden isn't really a sea god anyway.

As far as help goes, take you pick:

1. Siege.

2. Stuff I could do with a divine Emporer.(Don't want to copy the pharoah)

3. Economic/worker quirks.

4. Favor.

5. Anything else. I'm swamped.

Tell you what, I'll take votes over which MU to do next. Saves me the trouble of deciding.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 03:55 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 05:45 PM EDT (US)     21 / 72  
Some basic work on the Tengu:

Tormenting spirits from Japanese folklore. These bogeymen, with their long noses and beaks, live in mountains and forests and are especially after children. Their leader is Sojo-bo.

Traditionally, the Tengu is depicted as lithe humanoid with the head and wings of a crow. They are agile fliers, and have a reputation for swordsmanship.

In game, the Tengu is unique, a quick flying melee unit. While the Tengu is a swift flyer, they must land in order to use their katanas. They are superb harassment and support units, but lack the stanima to survive in the front-lines.

Tengu are only availible to worshipers of Fujin, the Demon God of Winds.

Sojo-Bo training. Sojo-bo, leader of the Tengu, was credited with instructing the famous Japanese hero, Yoshitsune, in the advanced martial arts of the tengu demons. Sojo-Bo training hones the skills of your tengu, increasing their damage and hack armor.

So what do you think, Spectre? I figure Fujin will also have your ninja upgrades, so this is probably a heroic age unit. I imagine Tengu will be very good at frustrating opponents, all the more so alongside advanced ninja. Such evil.......I guess Fujin is going to have to have a pretty mediocre gp.


[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 06:29 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 06:53 PM EDT (US)     22 / 72  
Just more musing on my part. I dug up the bonuses ES gave the Japanese in Aok for more ideas, and to see how close I was.

1. Excellent archers. check.

2. Poor Siege.(basic rams and catapults) check.

3. Weak buildings. Check.

4. Very poor mining. Something I was thinking of. check.

5. Excellent naval fishing and scouting, but not combat. This does make sense.

6. Exceptional Monks(Priests) check

6. Normal Calvary and awesome(as in the best) infantry. this is where I got thrown off a bit, but rethinking things, I think I understand. While Japan did have the stirrup, they relied mostly on the lightly-armored mounted archer, and never really developed heavy-Calvary or the lance.

Also, while Archers and mounted archers dominated the battlefield, their infantry did consist mostly of samurai and trained militia(the ashigiru). Japan also had an existing tradition of strong infantry even in early ages. Sheesh, Japanese infantry is also uber in RON. I'm going to have to overhaul my military structure. Obviously, Japanese infantry should be very powerful. Since that is the case, this is my question:

Since all Japanese Infantry is very powerful, what should be the samurai's role? I'm going to have to ponder this one for awhile.


[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 07:17 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 07:30 PM EDT (US)     23 / 72  
Hey, Sandyman! You're on a posting spree lately, how about giving me a hand? I'm just doing this for fun, but I'm curious as to what YOU would do with a AOM style Japanese civ..........ahhh..... come on!

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 07:32 PM).]

posted 04-02-04 07:58 PM EDT (US)     24 / 72  
I swear that it's every time I try to walk away and do something else, that I get an idea. Ok, this is my idea for a hero-system:

1. Samurai are like Jarls. Elite fighters, bonus damage vs myth units, but not heroes. Alternatively, all units can become heroes by killing units, and samurai can just pull it off faster.

2. Monks are heroes, but not powerful fighters. Instead, they use their charms and spells to use a special stun attack that only works against myth units.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 04-02-2004 @ 08:52 PM).]

posted 04-03-04 01:50 AM EDT (US)     25 / 72  
Well, Zappos, really good work. Although I am actually the one to blame you had to do all this work, I don't know anything about the Japanese that has NOT been said before.
One more thing: you should ask a moderator to change the title of your topic.

Theris264
former Age of Mythology Heaven and Age of Empires III Heaven forumer||former member of Ambition Designs
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" -Gandhi
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