Really a nice civilization outline. One can see you have done alot of research. The images you use are very good: just concepts, which can say more than very detailed images. This civilization deserves to be turned into a modpack.

Thanks lets hope people can be bothered to D/L it

this sounds interesting. it might be worth pursuing...

Can some people who've downloaded it comment and give feedback? This took shed loads of time to do (so I'd like to know if it's good, bad or needs changing).

Tok / Sp3ctre,

Wow! A lot of work went into that write up, and a lot of research.

With so much information, it's difficult to be able to tell how balanced the Japanese civ would be against the present civs, it would require some testing, but all the stats are there, at least for a good start.

I was particularly impressed with the Centipede and Death Stones, the concept of "squeezing" a building to destroy it is very interesting (graphically), and the concept of the Death Stones is truly unique to AoM.

I would really like for ES to expand on AoM, I think they'd be missing a large market if they don't, and your Japanese civ is unique enough to create some very interesting game play.

Nice work!

This is on the frontpage.
(the fourth one as far as I know)
Congrats man.
BTW: I'll gona give it a review.

woohoo! Thanks Soccy, you rule! Hopefully this will boost Downloads and feedback :P

EDIT: Theris I've just read your review and I have to say thanks first! I do have a question though;

- What do you mean by 'Breaking the AoM frame'? Do you mean radical ideas like no villagers or units aren't made in buildings or something like that? Or simple things like multiple GP usage (like the Atlanteans) or 3 minor gods etc...?

Also, I believe statting is better and gives more of a good idea than just describing a unit. Of course the stats won't be perfectly balanced but I've based them all on other units in the game (Training Camp based on Egyptian Rax stats and Samurai based on Greek Heroes). I'm just wondering why people are against a lot of detail

Unlike other civs, I've not been 100% accurate with my units. I haven't called the training camp units Japanese Names, I've generally chosen units that could pass as conscripts (as the Samurai were the REAL military). I added a mounted bowman because I think a pierce damage soft archer counter hasn't been done before

Thanks to everyone who's given feedback! I've had 117 downloads so I hope some more people have opinions!

[This message has been edited by Sp3ctre (edited 10-27-2004 @ 03:33 PM).]

Uhhh, I would look at it, but I am having a problem. The problem is when i click on the link it comes up with a white page, with nothing on it. I looked at the bar on the bottom to see its progress, and it says done. Can someone help me?

Really nice!

i like how it is ballanced, no too op, and has a style of its own...

Now, a few things to help out (which you requested)

The samurai weren't the only real part of the miliatry, there was also the ashigaru (which you would be familiar with if you play shogun tw like me!)

another thing is one of the major gods is way under powered (the god bonuses go like - farms are cheaper, regular soldiers stronger...)
If you'd add that the farms collected food quicker i think it would be all squared away...

one thing i wanted to see were TENGU for myth units! those things rock!

I found the ninja a little too complicated, although i like the fact that it can enter buildings. it may be a little over powered as being a spy with an instant kill attack that can inhabit enemy buildings and cant be hit by tower fire... if it were me (which its not, so don't take offense) I would keep everything but his attack... take away his attack and call him a shinobi or sumthin

I have a few other thoughts but i dont want to give it all at once. PLUS, If there is going to be a mod made for this i'd like to help by maybe drawing up some of the units (i noticed the comment about the look of the units earlier) so if ya want, add me (Rhineville@hotmail.com) and we could talk about it.

cheers and good job again!

The problem with taking away the ninja's attack is that he isn't really a cool stealth killer anymore . Susonowa is the only Major God with decent Ninja (all the others have pitiful armour) so it may not be too much of a problem.

The reason why they're complicated is because I had to include details like 'Cannot be hit by tower fire' and 'Can be kicked out of buildings by repairing' because the unit wouldn't work otherwise. If he was hit by enemy towers, you'd NEVER be able to get decent scouting, if he couldn't be ejected then it would be OP. Most of it is a balance issue. I do see where they could be OP, however they will only do great damage if massed and microed to hell!

The problem with selecting units was that Ashigiru were kinda already taken by other Japanese Civ concepts. I didn't want to steal any ideas. Also, there just isn't room for them. In the Classic age there are 3 Soft Counters and in the Heroic Age there are 3 Hard Counters. Ashigiru have nowhere to really fit in, as everything is already accounted for. I guess I could swap them for the Swordsman

I don't like Tengu Please post your other thoughts, i'm interested in what people have to say.

You don't like TENGU!?!?!? well, you don't wanna know what I think now... lol jk

uhhhh lets see, ya that ninja thing - you're right, it would be cool to have that killer be able to slip by enemy towers n such.

what i meant was that it was a little much for one unit... but i think you said that it doesnt turn into a ninja until a certain age? if thats the case then i think it would be perfect. either that or the spy being able to upgrade into a ninja but i think you may have done that...

I really like the idea of the emperor and the fact that the samurai turn into ronin if he dies... the samurai may seem a little op at first but im pretty sure everone likes the idea of samurai being superiour warriors (as im sure they were) and the fact that they also counter their unit type shows that.

hmm what else.... I don't hink that there's much else 'wrong' with it, if it is going to be a mod then im sure the kinks will be a lot more evident once someone tries to play through it...

so, in summary I REALLY WANT THIS TO BE A MOD!!!

nice. it will be very difficlut to mod so much thou. ned a big team of modders.

Quoted from Sp3ctre:

With both things you could 'break' the AoM frame, although it will be much harder with the first category, for then you can quickly design a civ that doesn't fit into AoM any more.

Quoted from Sp3ctre:

I could try to explain it, but I think Acamas did quite a good job at explaining it here

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Yeah, they turn into Ninja once you hit Heroic.Once in Heroic, the enemy should have enough villagers to make it pretty hard to cripple them with Ninja.

The Samurai were generally designed to be like the Greek Heroes. They're high in population and cost, but very effective. The point is that it makes sure that the Japanese PROTECT THE EMPEROR. There isn't a civ that's completely dependent on one special unit and to maximise your power with the Japanese you have to take risks that could cost you the game. The Samurai are OP when the emperor is alive, but once he's dead they are extremely underpowered (all armoury ups go from +15% to +10%, they can't gather favor and they can't counter MUs).

Theris, I tried a little frame breaking with the EcoMilitary, but I do agree that this civ isn't revolutionary

Makes me think of AoK's game-mode "Regicide".

Wow, 304 downloads. Thanks for the support guys! I don't think it will be made into a mod, but it would be nice. If I had modding skills I'd have already started

If any mod team DOES want to make this into a civ, feel free! I'm all for helping the AoM community

hey, i just read through ur guide. It was great, seriously. very good ideas, but about the ninja... if he slipped into a house how exactly would u be able to kick him out? would u have to delete the house? i don't think that u can garrison inside...

Garrison or repair (click the little hammer icon with a villy and then the house). Every building can be repaired, so it's not too hard to kick him out

The Ninja seems to be causing the most confusion

Sure captured the flavor of the Japanese, I think.

Now, who's gonna make a Mesoamerican civ?

I'll check out and see if I can make detailed comments later. No Tengu though? You're breaking my heart man!

Edit: Am I the only one who can't access the database? Rats.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 10-29-2004 @ 05:17 PM).]

Quoted from Alex Borhild:

*cough* How about this? *cough*

Quoted from Zappos:

The databases at HG are down at the weekend. Read the frontpage.

Or this one...

All right, I'm looking through it now, so I'll just post comments as I go for now. I should say that I don't mind you filching my ideas.(Just give me a shout out and we're fine) I can tell you've done your homework. (I'm actually taking a course on Japanese history at the moment. Cool stuff) Don't get discouraged either, I'm carping out of respect, I promise.

1. First off, the Emperor concept is nifty, but far too extreme. Temper it a bit.

2. I like the villager concept, although the divide confused me at first.(In Japan, women were an important labour force, and were almost exclusively responsible for rice-planting, among other things)

3. Is the Master Blacksmith a guy, or a building?

4. I have to nit-pick at your unit choices a bit here.

A. The Spear(Pike really) is by far the most appropriate choice for a Japanese mainline infantry unit. (Generic titles are not a good thing either, believe me, "Ashigiru" and "Bushi" get thrown around a lot for a reason.) I'm not sure what the best choice for a skirmisher is though.....I'll get back to you.

B. The Bowman..(I'll try to look up a Japanese word for archer) Japanese bows are interesting, basically longbows built off-center than can be used kneeling or mounted. Lots of power, pain in the arse to aim.(thus, having a somewhat shorter effective range than you'd expect) Because it could be used kneeling, Japanese archers would often kneel behind a large wooden plank(sheild) while firing.(Or hold it over-head during return volleys.) A more distinctive archer might have higher-pierce armor(due to sheild) and hit pretty hard, but lacking in some other area. (Speed, hack armor, maybe range)

C. Horse Archer. I love this unit, but it should, seriously, be a Samurai unit. The entire development of the Samurai hinges on the fact that learning to effectively fire a Japanese Longbow, in armor, riding a horse, is a pain-in-the-tookus so vast that you have to pay someone to practice every day so he can still do it. Maybe swap the Samurai Calvary and the Horse Archer? Or even better, replace the Samurai Archer with a Samurai Horse Archer. Yeah, that sounds like the better idea.

5. The Ninja is more or less as I remembered. Complex, but nifty.

6. So only Izanagi has the guardians? That could be a little unfair. If he had the best guardians, that would seem more balanced. Otherwise, he looks ok, if a little dull.(I know, I know, the Guardians are the cool benefit) The GP sounds like a more versatile version of Great Hunt(except that cloning a Gold mine kinda makes Thor look like a sissy)

7. If someone made this civ, everyone would play Susonowa, just because. You have been warned. Whats the rationale on the food leeching? Hailstorm looks good, and Suso obviously loves his ninjas.

8. Amaterasu=favour generation, eh? Thats a cool connection.(Haven't gotten to the MU's yet though)

9. Ooh, Raiden improves archers *and* beats up ships. I like that. *waves fondly at Mosquito Net*

10. Very interesting interpretation of the Shojo.

11. Fudo is one cool geezer. Just sayin.

12. The Oni seems a little too sissy.(Yeah, yeah, there was that incident were "Peachboy" killed a bazilion of them with the help of his little dog, monkey and parrot friends, but still) I know they're dirt-cheap favour mongers, but with 125 HP's, heroes would just have a field day with these guys.

13. I think Magic Mallot needs a little more "magic". What if the Mallot could be used to provide you with a bonus resource pile of your choice? It might make Dai-Koku a bit more attractive.

14. Rooks are crows, just so you know. :P (Yes, I do keep a dictionary on my computer desk)

15. Damn Fujin is cool. And Raiju is just a fun concept.

16. Flight of Dragons!? And a powerful MU that lasts 5 minutes! And a flying Calvary eater! An all-out assault with Ryujin might be overkill, but man would it be fun.

17. Who the heck is Uzume? Healing Stream might be a bit overpowered. Mountain Women are interesting. You've got a definite trend toward weak MU's with cool powers going on so far. It might be simpler to have a generic "Zombie" monster created by Kagura's dance.

18. Hachimans Emperor protection is very interesting. Moderating the Emperor factor would weaken him tremendously, but there are ways around that.....Is it just me, or are most Mythc techs economic?

19. Me likey Centipede very muchy. Coolness has blinded me to actual stats/balance. I'll look at it later.

20. Interesting approach to Bishamon. I like the Kumo.

21. Izanamai's MU protection is *very* interesting.

Wrap up: All in all, I like it. It's not quite what *I* would do, naturally,(Sohei! Tengu! Wheee!) but it's very good on the whole, and hangs together well. I'd certainly like to play it.

Good Work!

Edit: A possible variation on the "Heroes(Samurai) pray for favour" concept. What if Samurai had to generate favour by hanging out with the emperor(As in, the imperial palace) instead of spending all their time out in the field kicking gaijin booty? Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 10-30-2004 @ 06:51 PM).]

Whoa, thanks for the lengthy reply! First things first...

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Lol, you should read the intro properly...

"Firstly I’d like to say that this is my first attempt at a civilization on my own. In the past, I’ve helped an AoMH Forumer called ‘Zappos’ with his Japanese civilization. If any features repeat themselves, I’ve tried to only use ideas I thought of. There are major differences between our civs, but factors such as the Scouting and a few GPs will be the same (because I created those ideas). I thought I’d credit him because it was fun making the civ!"

I dropped Sohei and 2 Minor Gods, and I think I've only used ideas I came up with. The Emperor for example is the biggest change.

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I needed to make it extreme because of two reasons.

1. If the Emperor didn't give a boost to Samurai, he'd be protected next to the home TC with 50 Pagodas. No-one could kill him and the Japanese player wouldn't care. If the Samurai are weak without the Emperor, they will risk his life more

2. I think we need a civ where it ALL revolves around one person. From what I know, the Japanese thought of the Emperor as a 'living god' and would serve him till the bitter end. The Japanese will be a hard civ to learn but very strong in the right hands.

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Thats why the villagers are the women and the villagers are weak. They're only really sustainable in a farming/close to home area because of their low HP

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Because I didn't like Sohei that much (Ita-Den was a BUDDIST GOD, whereas my gods are Shinto) I used a weaker Atlantean Hero system. Master Blacksmith is just a fancy name for an armoury.

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Generally I've actually discarded all the mainline infantry stuff because it wouldn't go with my economic system. Basically, the Training Camp just trains villagers with battle skills. It's a conscript army so they generally use swords or weak bows. They are NOT comparable to Bushi or Ashigiru (mainly because I didn't want to leech your ideas).

I added a Mounted Bowman as a Training Camp unit because it's the Japanese Raider. I want the Japanese to be able to raid, so if they were Samurai they couldn't raid. I also really wanted a Heavy Foot Bowman (Samurai Archer). This civ isn't meant to be 100% accurate

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Yep, only Izanagi has the Guardians. This makes him more unique and a better defense god. Izanagi is the defense god because of his larger Villy HP, stronger buildings and more protected Emperor. He also has the best defensive god path. To be honest, the Guardians are very weak and wouldn't do much damage in Heroic+.

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Right, the idea for the food leeching is from Pantheon.org....

"Gaki - The Japanese expression for the "hungry ghosts". In Zen monasteries it is customary to make a small food offering to the gaki before beginning to eat a meal. "

Susonowa is the evil god, so I thought that this would be a nice little Econ bonus for him. Because it DOESN'T STEAL the food, it's not overpowered (this is all explained in the document IIRC). And yes, people will probably love the Ninjas for the first month or two

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Because of that poisoned saki thing I thought she should heal and kill. She's pretty easy to annihilate so her InstaKill will be quite hard to finish off.

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They're supposed to be an early favour gathering massable MU. I suppose they could have 200 HP or something, but they are just Japanese Automatons to be honest

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Late game this GP will be a blessing. If you have 4 large goldmines on 1 HP, it could practically give you 24000 gold for FREE. Coupled with the farming techs and decent MU, he's a good Economic god. Remember, he's got to be comparable to someone like Bast for he IS a Classic Age god.

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Whats wrong with the Flight of Dragons?! I always wanted a Tidal Wave GP but how would it be animated?!?! If there was no water on the map it would be unusable! To be honest, O Goncho is VERY expensive and Uwibame is only good Vs Cavalry. Izanagi is the only god who can get Dai-Koku and Ryujin, so a dragon spam is very unlikely.

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Uzume is my replacement for Benten because I felt she was a sucky god! Uzume is the god who convinced Amaratsu to leave her cave and bring light to the world. Her GP isn't very OP because it's fixed and to maximise it's potential you have to build the thing yourself! Like healing spring, if you lose the area it's cast, you lose the GP.

I think AoM needs more MU armies, at the moment there's only Anubites and Automatons. I was thinking of a generic Zombie but how would a dead War Elephant be converted into a humanoid? I think walking dead elephants would be crazy cool!

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It's you. Hachiman is a Mythic Econ god (like Thoth) and Bishamon has one economic myth tech. All the rest reduce military cost or boost units.

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I thought I'd counter Hachiman's Divine Protection with an evil version . I just wanted to get powerful Zombies with one Major God! Amaratsu can get powerful Training Camp units that can spawn zombie Elephants with better armour Vs Heroes!

I think that's all your questions covered. If you have more just ask! Thanks again for the long reply.

Some of my comments were a little off, because I was actually posting as I read. Anyway, I understand dropping the Buddist Ida-ten for Hachiman perfectly. I do miss my Sohei, but thats just cause they're uber sweet. I picked Benten at the time for the interesting description, but she didn't really seem responsible for anything...

Quick history lesson of the Japanese Emperor:

The Imperial line of Japanese Emperors has technically reigned unceasingly from very early times (4-500 AD-ish) to the current day, but very rarely has had any political authority whatsoever. The importance of the Emperor is tied to the early rise of the Yamato(think original AOE) clan in Japan. The Yamato was the first clan that managed to dominate the others, and they blended the (Shinto) mythology of all the clans with their traditions, asserting that the Yamato were direct descendents of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, and thus ruled through divine providence.

The Yamato only ruled for around 200 years, but the next clan who took over, for whatever reason(didn't want to rock the boat I guess) didn't challenge the divine right of the Yamato, instead insisting that their clan was needed to guide and assist the Emperor. Once this precedent was set, it never really changed, with a variety of clans and types of governments seizing real power, always keeping the Yamato Imperial family intact and using them as a symbolic call of authority.

Basically, the Emperor was generally a really useful symbolic figurehead, which is why I approve of the concept behind your design.

As for units, I still think the Samurai Archer should be a Samurai Horse Archer, because, well, it's TRADITION for heaven sakes. I'm not saying ditch the normal horse archer, just make room for an elite version.

Your base villager units look passable, although a spear still seems more appropriate than a sword. How about a Naginata? Traditional defense weapon,(women especially, oddly enough) good against Calvary. A Naginata is essentially a curved sword mounted on a long pole, or a slashing spear, depending on how you look at it. Either way, it would give the unit some flair(always a good thing when trying to differentiate Civs) It was *not* a Samurai weapon though, so it still fits your concept. The unit will probably need a small modifier against Calvary(like the Spearman) in order to be useful.

I like the Mounted Horseman a lot. I guess he's your soft counter vs Archers? Could be a balance issue though.(Think Turmas. Crap Stats, but fast ranged units are ideal for RTS games)

Ryujin isn't so bad at second look, though I don't think you explained healing spring too well in your document.

I do really like it overall, despite your continued blindness to the obvious, overwhelming coolness of Sohei. (Hint: it's partially a visual thing. Stereotypical Sohei are crazy, fearless guys with light armor, hoods covering their faces except for an eye slit, and weilding Naginatas)

The no favour/heroes thing in classical worries me a bit.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 10-31-2004 @ 09:37 AM).]