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Topic Subject: Market Stuff
posted 12-13-05 01:16 PM EDT (US)   
Market & Advanced Market, can it be more than a crutch?

Intro
You can buy and sell food and wood at the market. The buy price is always higher then the sell price but changes as transactions are made (Supply and Demand). Normally the market is just a way to correct your resources because your econ isn’t what it should be and entails a penalty. However given the differences in gather rates I am curious if the market can be used for an overall economic gain.

Going off of the gather rates on MFO http://www.rtscentral.com/readPosting.asp?hdr=&PostingId=1710600

First most simplified case, is it better to gather food and sell it for coin or gather directly?

75 coin takes 125 villager seconds (vs) to gather

If you could sell all the food you wanted for 75 coin per 100 food is it better to trade or gather coin?

100 food takes 128 vs to hunt

As expected there is a penalty for trading at the base rates.

What if the hunters are upgraded? Hunting Dogs (50w, 50c +10%)

100 food takes 115 vs to hunt

Of course to be fair note the gold upgrade. Placer mines (75f, 75w +10%)

75 gold takes 114 vs to gather

There could be some merit in getting multiple hunting upgrades (hunting dogs and furrier) to improve normal food gather rates and use the market to justify that by saving a bit on coin gathering. It’s clear it won’t be a lot even early on and the prices do change to make it less of an advantage after trading a lot.

Advanced Market

For this part I need some data about how the advanced market shipment changes things. Testing in single player yielded the following.

Selling Food for coin (coin per 100 food)
86
85
84
83
82
and so on going down by one for each transaction. Note, when the sell price reached 75 the buy price was 93

Buying Wood with coin (coin per 100 wood)
106
107
108
109
The same trend as selling. Note, when buy price reached 119 sell price reached 96


Now consider the same test as before.

100 food takes 128vs to hunt. In 128vs 77 coin can be gathered. (86 takes 143vs) or a small but noted improvement.

100 wood takes 200vs to gather. With 200vs you could gather 120 coin.

Okay, point made. With the advanced market shipment you can gather food instead of wood or coin and use the market to actually come out ahead. Big deal, it cost a whole freaking shipment and by no means can be useful in the early game when these little differences are so critical.

Still I ask, what would be the best case scenario for using this? I have to think it would be as a Spanish player’s 2nd discovery shipment instead of the 300 wood that most will send. Before reaching colonial buying the 300 wood for a stable, 100 wood for a house and then maybe even another 300 for a barracks. Thus forgoing gathering wood until after the 3rd shipment.

700 wood – > 763 gold – > 900 food + 25 coin

700 wood takes 1400vs
900food 1154vs + 25 coin 42vs = 1196vs

Leaving 204vs or enough to gather 160 food. Certainly not what I would choose.

What about hunting dogs?

900 food would take 120 fewer vs translating to 282 food at this improved rate. That is assuming you want food not wood. Clearly still not enough to justify use of the advanced market card just for this reason. Conclusion: Even in the best case scenario of 300 wood or advanced market it’s still better to go with the wood. With hunting dogs the two are almost the same. No surprises. But you never know untill you actually do the calculations. A more ideal hunting rate would change this slightly but then you could just save this second shipment and go for 700 wood and it wouldn't matter a bit.

Hunting Dogs
Since I’m going, why stop?

How much hunting has to be done for hunting dogs to pay off the tech price?

50w, 50c, 183vs
Hunt rate change (.09) 2038vs -- > 1772 food -- > sometime during the transition to colonial.

And the woodcutting tech (/w HD)?

100f, 115vs
Rate change (.05) -- > 2300vs -- > 1265w -- > later


A Villager

100f, 128vs -- > + returns made after 2:33

Doesn’t look like you should expect to see any kind of return on the techs or even villagers for a while.


NerVe Clan
SMF AoE3 Recorded Game Data Mod
icq: 118526591 «¦¤¦» msn: theflammifer@hotmail.com
Replies:
posted 12-13-05 01:48 PM EDT (US)     1 / 7  
very nice post, now I know that the card is more or less useless, as I thought.

But one can never know until you test it. gj


Greetings, I'm Synthax.
SirKT 2k+ clan
posted 12-13-05 02:07 PM EDT (US)     2 / 7  
however testing can be misleading some times... anyhow great post flame

i persoanlly go with cheap raqs instead of 300 wood. I loose out on 175 wood but in the long run when i have 10 raqs for the cost of 5 i think its worth it not to mention i also dont loose out on the vs via having to harvest the wood.


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  • [This message has been edited by Mokon (edited 12-13-2005 @ 02:11 PM).]

    posted 12-13-05 02:25 PM EDT (US)     3 / 7  
    Hmm, digging up old stuff. Found this little handy thing

    You can calculate the number of villager seconds in a build while constantly creating villagers using the following formula. It was a bit more useful in aok where you had 20+ vills created in the first age.

    n = the number of villagers that you have created
    an = the number of villager seconds when the n vill was created. assumes constand vill production

    an = 25(n2 + (n(5-n))/2)

    of course that was for AoK, for the 6 vills start it is


    an = 25(n2 + (n(11-n))/2)

    which tells me that a civ with an 5 min colonial (8vills created) will have had 1900 vs available upon [edit]researching[/edit] colonial. For french with 7 vills created at 29 seconds apeice it comes to 1827 of course they gather about 20% faster so that's about 2192 normal civ vs or 15.4% more. Makes about 150 more wood. Good to actually put that one out there since i hadn't seen anyone calculate it yet.


    NerVe Clan
    SMF AoE3 Recorded Game Data Mod
    icq: 118526591 «¦¤¦» msn: theflammifer@hotmail.com

    [This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 12-13-2005 @ 07:44 PM).]

    posted 12-13-05 04:39 PM EDT (US)     4 / 7  

    Quote:

    Makes about 150 more wood. Good to actually put that one out there since i hadn't seen anyone calculate it yet.


    so french get 150 more wood (or comparable other rescource in relation to villie seconds)to that point, but if you calculate the extra food cost per villie would it balance out?

    edit: i reread your post and answered my own question.

    answer incase others are to lazy to reread it: you have already taken into account less villies because of the extra cost.

    [This message has been edited by dupsky (edited 12-13-2005 @ 04:44 PM).]

    posted 12-13-05 05:14 PM EDT (US)     5 / 7  
    i wonder what ottoman would be.
    posted 12-13-05 08:17 PM EDT (US)     6 / 7  
    well at 48 seconds for each vill (number i found, not sure if it's right) at the 4 minute mark you'd have 5 more vills meaning 1200vs. About 700 less than the standard case I posted earlier. Loss of about 546 food. I seem to remember a much more detailed post at mfo or maybe sanctuary, couldn't find it in a quick glace.

    NerVe Clan
    SMF AoE3 Recorded Game Data Mod
    icq: 118526591 «¦¤¦» msn: theflammifer@hotmail.com
    posted 12-13-05 09:04 PM EDT (US)     7 / 7  
    the only time i use that card is when im the dutchies, cuz with there mad amounts of coin its worth it
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