I'll start with an easy example.
Should I use the xp dance to try and get my 3 vill shipment asap?

I'll use a hypothetical case to keep things simple.

info:
300 xp requiered for first shipment
each villager created is 10 xp
xp trickle is 2xp/sec

standard case:
4 vills created (40xp)
130 seconds (260xp)

3 vills arive at 170 sec

2 dancers case:
2 dancers (1xp/sec) start at 30 sec for 70 sec (70xp)
3 vills created (30xp)
100 seconds (200 xp)

3 vills arive at 140 seconds

Evaluate:
My 3 vills showed up 30 seconds sooner (+90vs)
I had to use 2 vills dancing for 70 sec to do it (-140vs)
I gathered 70 xp making all my future shipments arive 35 seconds sooner
I had to use my travois to make a fire pit

Not exactly the best idea, but it isn't terrible.

Now what about this,
1 dancer case:
1 dancer (.5xp/sec) start at 30 sec for 84 seconds (42xp)
3 vills created (30xp)
114 seconds (228xp)

3 vills arive at 144 seconds
26 seconds sooner (+78vs)
84 seconds dancing (-84vs)

Its not a big difference, but it's not likely that i'll be able to get that kind of precision in game.

[This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 10-05-2006 @ 06:55 PM).]

Just moving to GD so the links wont get screwed up on the news when the forums are merged

okay, that'll do for now

[This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 10-05-2006 @ 07:39 PM).]

-blake : )

AENNA are a cheap unit though, and can be upgraded at the firepit, as well as the 500 age up tomahawk...and travois builders...

My initial numbers indicate that it would take several minute to pay off. I'll finish up the calculations later.

A quick check to see what happens when you use the production dance to speed up the creation of a single villager and then send all villagers back to work gave me an interesting result. The number of villagers you have to create to after the dance to have the same number of villager seconds that you would if you hadn't used the dance, is the number of dancers +10.

n - villagers to create before breaking even
d - number of dancers
p - (dance production time)/(normal production time)

p = 1/(1+.1*d)

n = d/(1-1/(1+.1*d)) = d+10

[This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 10-06-2006 @ 02:30 PM).]

[This message has been edited by Strokey Blofeld (edited 10-06-2006 @ 08:26 PM).]

Yes. That's super boom posibility right there. 25 x 11 = 275 VS. That means plantations that only cost 275 VS. That is great. (I think that travois can make plantations.)

that way you can save travois for soemthing else, like a war hut.

use fire pit to make travois seems to be the best deal, plantation worth 800 wood, foundry worth 300, it takes much less time to creat a travois.

ModifyBase, 1 for % changes and such, 0 for units that are spawned.
ModifyMultiplier & ModifyExponent, self explainitory when you realized the actuall form of the equations is y(d)=A*d^B Simple enough, eh? It looks nearly linear as B approaches 1. Anyhow, here's the summary. There looks to be yet one more number for the unit spawning dances but the equations are now much more accurate.

Production - 0.08*d^1.02
XP - 0.2*d^1.05 (the base value is 2xp/sec)
WC hp - 0.02*d^1.01
unit dmg - 0.007*d^1.005
building hp - 0.04*d^1.025
building atk - 0.02*d^1.0125
travois ~ 586 * (0.58*d^1.03)
warriors ~ 780 * (0.065*d^1.03)
healers ~ 3230 * (0.065*d^1.03)

<action>
<name>VillagerTrainFaster</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>Training</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Unit</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.08</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.020</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>XPTrickleIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>XPTrickle</dancebonustype>
<modifymultiplier>0.2</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.05</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>GatherRateIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>Gathering</dancebonustype>
<modifymultiplier>0.05</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.0</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>BuildingHitpointIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Building</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.04</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.025</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>MaxHP</modifytype>
</action>
<action>
<name>BuildingDamageIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Building</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.02</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.0125</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>Damage</modifytype>
</action>
<action>
<name>ShipHitpointIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Ship</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.03</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.0075</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>MaxHP</modifytype>
</action>
<action>
<name>ShipDamageIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Ship</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.01</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.0075</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>Damage</modifytype>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnWarrior</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpWarrior</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.020</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.02</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnTravois</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpBuilder</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.058</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnIroquoisDude</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>MercNinja</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>IncreasePopCap</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>PopCap</dancebonustype>
<modifymultiplier>1.0</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.0</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>RegenAllUnits</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>Regeneration</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Unit</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.3</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.055</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnAztecDude</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpSkullKnight</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnSiouxDude</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpDogSoldier</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnWarChief</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>WarChiefRansom</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpIroquoisWarChief</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnLakotaWarChief</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>WarChiefRansom</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpLakotaWarChief</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnAztecWarChief</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>WarChiefRansom</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpAztecWarChief</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>HeroHitpointIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Hero</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.02</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.01</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>MaxHP</modifytype>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnMedicineMan</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpMedicineMan</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SpawnMedicineManAztec</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitSpawn</dancebonustype>
<modifyprotoid>xpMedicineManAztec</modifyprotoid>
<modifymultiplier>0.065</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>0.0</modifybase>
</action>
<action>
<name>SiegeDamageIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Unit</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.045</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.03</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>SiegeDamage</modifytype>
</action>
<action>
<name>UnitDamageIncrease</name>
<type>DanceBonus</type>
<active>1</active>
<persistent>1</persistent>
<dancebonustype>UnitModification</dancebonustype>
<modifyabstracttype>Unit</modifyabstracttype>
<modifymultiplier>0.007</modifymultiplier>
<modifyexponent>1.005</modifyexponent>
<modifybase>1.0</modifybase>
<modifytype>UnitDamage</modifytype>
</action>

[This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 10-07-2006 @ 04:23 PM).]

i'd like to get some evaluation on each of the dances so i can make a decision about at what stage of the game a firepit may be worthwhile and the dances worth employing. i'll kick it off with some very subjective thoughts but if you or anyone could confirm/deny with figures and comparisons that would be most appreciated.

Gift Dance - increases the XP trickle - my gut feel is that keeping the vills on wood and building a TP would be a more efficient way of generating XP especially as time moves on as the vills can be used for other things (i've no numbers to back that up). i would see this as more of a 'default' dance option if no other dances were useful at the time and you didnt want to move your vills off.

Founder Dance (Iroquois Only) - produces additional Travois units - Assuming 25 vills producing a travois every 11 secs. If these vills were on wood they could collect unupgraded:

25 vills x 11secs x 0.5 wood = 137.5 wood

Therefore this is useful if the travios are used to build a building that costs more than 137.5 wood and hence using them to churn out houses would not be very efficient. Far more effective for farms and plantations but we're really only talking age3 onwards.

Holy Dance - spawns medicine men - can medicine men be produced through conventional means? If not then not sure how to cost compare these.

Fertility Dance - faster training - am i right in saying this effects military units as well as vills? if so i can't see any real benefit unless you've just lost a decent amount of troops and need to rebuild quickly. but i would guess simply having more military buildings would be just as effective.

Town Dance - increases building hitpoints - cant see any use in this unless your base is getting hammered in which case you're probably in deep trouble anyway.

Alarm Dance - spawns warriors for defence (lose hitpoints over time) - seems reasonable although the fact that your dancers are exposed whilst the enemy is attacking your base may be a problem. perhaps an argument to build your firepit well away or at least a reasonable distance behind your TC?

War Chief Dance - increases your WarChief's hitpoints - can see advantages whilst treasure hunting or escaping attack but limited otherwise.

War Dance - increases the damage your units do - assuming 25 vills = +18% damage (is this correct?). seems quite good if you're involved in a reasonable size battle so perhaps of greater beneift as the game goes on.

again all the above is very subjective but to me it's pointing to firepits not being beneficial until later in the game.

thoughts anyone?

Production
new production time = base production time / (1 + 0.08*d^1.02)

XP
XP rate = 0.4*d^1.05

WC hp
percentage increase = 0.02*d^1.01

unit dmg
percentage increase = 0.007*d^1.005

building hp
percentage increase = 0.04*d^1.025

building atk
percentage increase = 0.02*d^1.0125

travois
time to produce 1 travois = 586 * (0.58*d^1.03)

warriors
time to produce 1 warrior= 780 * (0.065*d^1.03)

healers
time to produce 1 healer = 3230 * (0.065*d^1.03)

Ok, what I'm also interested in (and I realise this may be quite subjective) is which dances are realistically going to be beneficial and if so at what stage in the game?

My initial thoughts are the firepit may not be that useful early in the game but does anyone have any opinions to the contrary?

1) Medicine men cannot be trained from any building. Your only source are shipments or the firepit. Or I guess allying with an appropriate minor native, or hoping someone sends tema surgeons, etc.

2) the war chief dance is also the dance which resurrects the guy, so you'll probably need to do it on occasion.

3) it seems to us that the XP dance becomes more useful when you consider that there is more 2nd age action.

4) don't forget the water dance. It's available in the same way as the town dance (i.e., a shipment).

5) the Aztecs benefit from a firepit earlier than the other natives, because they start with a warrior priest, who can dance. So putting him on the pit doesn't cost VS, only wood (to build the pit). The other civs may or may not benefit from very early dancing.

6) for all the dances except the Iroquois Earth dance, the more dancers you have, the better the dance gets.

other wise as the number of dancers increases, the longer it takes for the travois to come out.