Patch 1.03 @ 4 months - Age of Empires III Heaven Forum

Topic Subject: Patch 1.03 @ 4 months

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Garlef
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 00:04 AM EDT (US)

Happy B-Day to patch 1.03

Here is the latest in stats for TWC...

Thanks must go to ESO Tools for gathering the raw data that I use.

Note:
All data is for Supremacy 1v1 with Mirror games excluded.

GO = PR Ranks Brigadier through Marshal
FGO = PR Ranks Major through Colonel
CGO = PR Ranks 2nd Lt through Captain
Equal Rank means same PR Rank (not the same PR Level)

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CGO v CGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   18456   11207 60.72%
Ottoman    19849   10847 54.65%
Sioux      14709   7583  51.55%
Russian    11583   5857  50.57%
Spanish    15945   8050  50.49%
Dutch      22826   11477 50.28%
Aztec      16296   8060  49.46%
French     23124   10619 45.92%
German     6030    2683  44.49%
Portuguese 8350    3688  44.17%
British    15278   6152 40.27%
Total      172446  86223

CGO v CGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, Equal rank)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   8268   5041  60.97%
Ottoman    8841   5033  56.93%
Russian    5208   2703  51.90%
Dutch      10250  5171  50.45%
Sioux      6703   3428  51.14%
Aztec      7517   3829  50.94%
Spanish    7218   3532  48.93%
French     10546  4849  45.98%
German     2561   1101  42.99%
Portuguese 3656   1498  40.97%
British    6920   2659  38.42%
Total      77688  38844

CGO v CGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, Within 0-1 PR Level difference)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   8102   4942  61.00%
Ottoman    8243   4653  56.45%
Russian    4964   2607  52.52%
Sioux      6541   3388  51.80%
Aztec      7031   3618  51.46%
Dutch      9844   4972  50.51%
Spanish    6949   3390  48.78%
French     10085  4568  45.29%
German     2373   1017  42.86%
Portuguese 3510   1418  40.40%
British    6504   2500  38.44%
Total      74146  37073

CGO v CGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, Within 0-1 PR Level difference)

      Aztc  Brit  Dtch  Frch  Germ  Iroq  Otto  Port  Russ  Siou  Span  Total
Aztc        415   540   594   131   353   398   204   233   363   387   3618
Brit  297         398   437   95    237   281   174   111   225   245   2500
Dtch  481   614         857   185   503   618   332   340   466   576   4972
Frch  497   593   773         217   456   460   266   368   432   506   4568
Germ  110   111   160   154         77    101   56    74    86    88    1017
Iroq  520   513   779   744   172         580   270   350   507   507   4942
Otto  426   543   637   844   173   500         261   312   402   555   4653
Port  127   168   172   217   69    141   156         86    141   141   1418
Russ  278   317   387   462   78    230   290   130         209   226   2607
Siou  349   351   507   598   115   322   396   192   230         328   3388
Span  328   379   519   610   121   341   310   207   253   322         3390
Total 3413  4004  4872  5517  1356  3160  3590  2092  2357  3153  3559  37073

FGO v FGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   9966   5934  59.54%
Ottoman    7796   4246  54.46%
Spanish    10151  5249  51.71%
Sioux      6892   3510  50.93%
Aztec      7575   3809  50.28%
Dutch      10020  4903  48.93%
French     9709   4573  47.10%
Russian    3758   1768  47.05%
Portuguese 4383   1934  44.13%
German     3834   1644  42.88%
British    4954   1949  39.34%
Total      79038  39519

FGO v FGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   4238   2602  61.40%
Ottoman    3300   1776  53.82%
Aztec      3322   1697  51.08%
Spanish    4299   2164  50.34%
Dutch      4443   2228  50.15%
Russian    1637   814   49.73%
Sioux      2900   1414  48.76%
French     4366   2040  46.72%
German     1671   723   43.27%
Portuguese 1820   767   42.14%
British    2252   899   39.92%
Total      34248  17124

FGO v FGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, 0-1 PR Level difference)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   3967   2457  61.94%
Ottoman    3070   1697  55.28%
Aztec      3170   1622  51.17%
Russian    1510   765   50.66%
Spanish    4030   2018  50.07%
Dutch      4145   2058  49.65%
Sioux      2707   1325  48.95%
French     4133   1876  45.39%
German     1576   689   43.72%
Portuguese 1660   698   42.05%
British    2074   816   39.34%
Total      32042  16021

FGO v FGO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, 0-1 PR Level difference)

      Aztc  Brit  Dtch  Frch  Germ  Iroq  Otto  Port  Russ  Siou  Span  Total
Aztc        138   233   226   106   181   157   92    91    169   229   1622
Brit  101         126   129   46    70    60    58    29    73    124   816
Dtch  240   150         321   116   249   207   157   106   205   307   2058
Frch  197   180   305         108   208   214   124   96    181   263   1876
Germ  76    67    102   99          70    61    43    23    72    76    689
Iroq  270   201   375   378   160         218   144   109   229   373   2457
Otto  150   158   210   305   85    209         90    88    131   271   1697
Port  61    51    81    117   36    69    71          46    68    98    698
Russ  79    79    121   89    27    77    76    59          56    102   765
Siou  119   106   195   217   81    159   139   81    59          169   1325
Span  255   128   339   376   122   218   170   114   98    198         2018
Total 1548  1258  2087  2257  887   1510  1373  962   745   1382  2012  16021

LtC+ v LtC+
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, 0-1 PR Level difference)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   2740   1692  61.75%
Ottoman    2004   1110  55.39%
Spanish    2914   1481  50.82%
Aztec      1843   936   50.79%
Dutch      2711   1348  49.72%
Sioux      1974   960   48.63%
Russian    821    384   46.77%
French     2855   1291  45.22%
Portuguese 1258   538   42.77%
German     874    370   42.33%
British    1124   449   39.95%
Total      21118  10559

LtC+ v LtC+
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, 0-1 PR Level difference)

      Aztc  Brit  Dtch  Frch  Germ  Iroq  Otto  Port  Russ  Siou  Span  Total
Aztc        57    121   150   51    108   95    57    52    100   145   936
Brit  33          65    71    17    46    38    29    13    50    87    449
Dtch  133   74          244   61    176   132   111   53    148   216   1348
Frch  118   104   223         61    126   147   107   60    151   194   1291
Germ  38    37    49    56          36    32    23    14    42    43    370
Iroq  156   100   263   255   94          128   139   73    187   297   1692
Otto  98    101   117   202   46    155         52    47    100   192   1110
Port  36    28    68    89    30    69    53          24    52    89    538
Russ  45    32    61    48    15    43    36    29          31    44    384
Siou  86    68    132   167   47    114   109   74    37          126   960
Span  164   74    264   282   82    175   124   99    64    153         1481
Total 907   675   1363  1564  504   1048  894   720   437   1014  1433  10559

GO v GO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/200 (Mirror excluded)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   1699   1032  60.74%
Spanish    1730   952   55.03%
Dutch      1717   925   53.87%
Sioux      867    396   45.67%
British    617    277   44.89%
Portuguese 796    353   44.35%
Ottoman    553    243   43.94%
French     1557   680   43.67%
German     312    136   43.59%
Aztec      588    251   42.69%
Russian    254    100   39.37%
Total      10690  5345

GO v GO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   784    482   61.48%
Spanish    607    324   53.38%
Dutch      641    329   51.33%
Ottoman    285    146   51.23%
Sioux      407    205   50.37%
Aztec      260    123   47.31%
Russian    145    66    45.52%
French     668    286   42.81%
British    213    89    41.78%
Portuguese 376    157   41.76%
German     146    59    40.41%
Total      4532   2266

GO v GO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, 0-1 PR Level difference)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Iroquois   754    467   61.94%
Sioux      375    197   52.53%
Spanish    587    305   51.96%
Ottoman    256    133   51.95%
Dutch      621    309   49.76%
Aztec      227    108   47.58%
Portuguese 342    148   43.27%
French     636    274   43.08%
Russian    121    52    42.98%
British    214    89    41.59%
German     109    39    35.78%
Total      4242   2121

Author

Replies:

Cheesewiz
HG Alumnus

posted 07-17-07 00:19 AM EDT (US) 1 / 157

Nice job compiling those stats into a readable format.

If you ask me, this speaks volumes.

Other than the obvious stuff, I'd like to point out some of the more ambiguous aspects.

The British for one, are my favorite civ, in fact I've never played anything but British online. Yet, I don't think the British are THAT bad. The reason seems to be that since more new players play British, they do worse at the lower levels. However, this seems to be defy logic as they continue to do terribly in the mid-levels. Yet, in expert, they are clearly not that bad.

If you ask me, this means that the British, seemingly the most simplistic of all the civilizations, are actually the HARDEST to play excellently. You must be an expert with them, to effectively use them. Odd thought isn't it?

They have potiencial, but it's potiencial that isn't being used to its greatest abilities. I just wonder if the patch will find a way to address this.

Ex-Seraph Cheesewiz - Former WICH Webmaster, AOE3H Webmaster, & RTWH Staff, HeavenGames LLC
World_in_Conflict_Heaven || Age_of_Empires_III_Heaven || Support_HeavenGames || The_Playpen || Do_The_Right_Thing

SlavE_2_FreedoM
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 02:37 AM EDT (US) 2 / 157

Im surprised to see Otto's at 55%+ for the lot col+ playing level. I didnt think Ottos were that good anymore, especially at levels where most players can fend off rushes.

Iriqous SO dominant Ive never seen one aspect of a game so unbalanced.

NerVe_Viper
Age Sanctuary Admin
(id: FeaR_VipeR)

posted 07-17-07 05:14 AM EDT (US) 3 / 157

lol @ the Iroquois being 60-62% win% in every single category.

Anyway...

GO v GO
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)Civ Games Win %
Iroquois 784 482 61.48%
Spanish 607 324 53.38%
Dutch 641 329 51.33%
Ottoman 285 146 51.23%
Sioux 407 205 50.37%
Aztec 260 123 47.31%
Russian 145 66 45.52%
French 668 286 42.81%
British 213 89 41.78%
Portuguese 376 157 41.76%
German 146 59 40.41%
Total 4532 2266

That is what ES should be keeping in mind when balancing. A lot of people whine about the Ottoman and Aztec rushes at the lower skill levels, but the fact is that those rushes are counterable - most people just don't know. For any civ or strategy to be truly OP, you just need to look at the stats above to see what civs the experts are using and winning with.

Obviously the Iroquois should be #1 in ES' targets to nerf, with Spain 2nd (although we know that they're not nerfing Spain in 1.04).

Adam42
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 06:11 AM EDT (US) 4 / 157

testament to the notion that otto do not need a boost nor do they suck at the higher level. 51%+ win perc at the top level of play. France seem to be pretty bad though... and some people call them OP. o_0

armyballer
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 06:21 AM EDT (US) 5 / 157

Well, I've got about 150 online games playing ONLY German and my win % is at 62% (MSG). I guess most folks are not to good with Germans. Then again, I strickly play NR games and my guess would be that the % of NR games to rush games is lower than 50%.

John GrahamLeigh
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 06:30 AM EDT (US) 6 / 157

You don't need to guess - the stats are on ES's site. These show the following numbers of rated games played with TWC to date:

Supremacy 1,300,702
Treaty 255,749

So there are about 5 Supremacy games for every Treaty game. Balancing should accordingly concentrate on Supremacy, in which Germans are undeniably weaker than average.

somme
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 07:22 AM EDT (US) 7 / 157

These posts must take you forever... Good job.

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 07:51 AM EDT (US) 8 / 157

The British for one, are my favorite civ, in fact I've never played anything but British online. Yet, I don't think the British are THAT bad. The reason seems to be that since more new players play British, they do worse at the lower levels. However, this seems to be defy logic as they continue to do terribly in the mid-levels. Yet, in expert, they are clearly not that bad.

If you ask me, this means that the British, seemingly the most simplistic of all the civilizations, are actually the HARDEST to play excellently. You must be an expert with them, to effectively use them. Odd thought isn't it?

They have potiencial, but it's potiencial that isn't being used to its greatest abilities. I just wonder if the patch will find a way to address this.

Which stats are you looking at?

CGO and FGO have brits as the bottom civ, where GO has them as 2nd & 3rd worse under equal playing conditions. Even at the "common" Lt Col. level brits are last.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

Garlef
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 01:48 PM EDT (US) 9 / 157

Quoted from Somme:
These posts must take you forever

Yeah, this does take a while to post, mostly trying to format the post to look readable. It actually doesn't take much time to get the raw data or to process it.

Looking at the stats it does appear that the Ottos are not nearly as bad as players "feel". When even good players face off and are near equal PR level the Ottos do very well.

It is also a bit troubling that Brits get no boosts when they really suffer badly in 1v1 at all skill levels.

Lc_noob
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 02:05 PM EDT (US) 10 / 157

Suprising Dutch, it seems that the community sees them as being close to op and they only get significantly more than 50 % by in the GO category wich is a really small group.

Not suprisingly britt sucks big time, maybe wacko should so us how to use 50 op vills to kill falcs.

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 02:25 PM EDT (US) 11 / 157

Yea ... it's not like those vils will all live either, they'll be raped either during, before or after they kill (or get a chance to kill) the falcs. Then the bonus is null.

Sorry I didn't say this before, but yea Thanks Garlef, these are greatly appreciated.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

L_Clan_Socrates
VIP

posted 07-17-07 02:44 PM EDT (US) 12 / 157

I played a few British games on my 'Wacko' account to make sure I wasn't completely crazy:

http://www.elorating.com/portal/portal/default/Players/AOE3PlayerPortletWindow?se archString=wacko&action=2
So apparently I'm not TOTALLY off my rocker, maybe just a bit =\

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]

[This message has been edited by somme (edited 07-18-2007 @ 08:00 AM).]

ganggreene51
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 03:01 PM EDT (US) 13 / 157

One of the arguments I have seen against stats is that Iroquois is so OP that they throw the stats off. This is probably true. I would be interested to see the stats with them excluded.
This may explain why we see dutch as not so OP in the stats. The top players (and really at most levels) seem to predominately play IRO, Dutch and Spain(look at the games played for GO). The fact that Dutch play IRO so much may explain this.
The Dutch in general at low levels also seem to be overplayed. Possibly by people believing they will get an easy win and not playing them to their potential. Just a few thoughts.

Cheesewiz
HG Alumnus

posted 07-17-07 03:18 PM EDT (US) 14 / 157

Which stats are you looking at?

Well, the non-equal level super expert stats.

In other words, to sum up what I meant in that post...Brits are apaprantly quiet weak on every level, and extremely weak in the mid-range where there is no excuse for it (such as new players).

Lc_noob
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 04:16 PM EDT (US) 15 / 157

You did win with your brits, congrats, but either you have a way of playing nobody understand (just look at the stats) or you played ''lesser player''. I mean, I would appreciate if you could clarify what does the community does wrong with the brits. I understand you were maybe joking with unsing the mighty fighting vills and all. Maybe you could do something like the Sevastopol (wich was really nice) BO you did, I think it helps get a sense on how you use the civilisation and the patching that comes with it.

Garlef
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 04:27 PM EDT (US) 16 / 157

Here is the stats for LtCol+ range where opponents are 0-1 PR level difference and I have excluded all Iro matches.

LtC+ v LtC+
1v1 Supremacy
Patch 1.03 -> 7/15/2007 (Mirror excluded, 0-1 PR Level difference, Excluding Iro matches)

Civ        Games   Win   %
Ottoman    1721   955   55.49%
Spanish    2442   1306  53.48%
Aztec      1579   828   52.44%
Dutch      2272   1172  51.58%
Sioux      1673   846   50.57%
Russian    705    341   48.37%
French     2474   1165  47.09%
German     744    334   44.89%
Portuguese 1050   469   44.67%
British    978    403   41.21%
Iroquois   -      --
Total      15638  7819

L_Clan_Socrates
VIP

posted 07-17-07 05:43 PM EDT (US) 17 / 157

Actually Hope_ wrote up a British BO that will be posted on agecommunity sometime in the future.

And notice in those games I do lose groups of vills when I'm using them to fight =\

[img]http://www.aoe3-arena.com/sign2/WaCkO,3,0.png[/img]

Adam42
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 06:21 PM EDT (US) 18 / 157

Nice streak wacko. Got any recs? If you're using vills to fight and winning as well, i'm sure they'd make a great watch.

Sjiniet
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 06:35 PM EDT (US) 19 / 157

I think its everything we expected , they are basically the same as those from last months .

However it is notable that france is under russia , who is considerd much weaker (in 1v1) , it makes you think about nerfing thouroughbreds (wich i want nerfed)
And if you see how most frenchies rely on it , nerfing that would maybe drop them even more . There is going to be a real good counter boost needed(or just a fair change) if es is changing/nerfing TB.

[This message has been edited by Sjiniet (edited 07-17-2007 @ 06:38 PM).]

NATron
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 07:09 PM EDT (US) 20 / 157

France is under Russia because there are less Russian games there in total. Plus those who have thoroughbreds just mass cuirs and the enemy usually expects that.

★ ★ ★ ★ ★

I heard distant forests all the time - CunniJA
I found my Jabra!

Hockeystar
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 09:57 PM EDT (US) 21 / 157

With the exception of Iroquois, Dutch and Spain, the stats are inconsistent in the same division level. Sometimes Ports are the 5th best team and some times they are 10th best.

I.E the differences between GO v GO 0-1 PR Level difference, GO v GO equal rank, and GO v GO all levels.

Garlef
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 11:25 PM EDT (US) 22 / 157

Quoted from Hockeystar:
...the stats are inconsistent in the same division level

That is because the lower rated civs are not played as much and the sample size is relatively small (except for French). This means that there is a larger margin of error for those civs with smaller # of games played.

If you look at the FGO level where there is a much larger sample size you see much greater consistency in rank when player of differening skill levels face off.

The stats are just to help give a good impartial view of how the various civs really match up, as opposed to the "I just lost to X civ.. OMG they are so OP!" viewpoint that is so often seen.

wreckoning
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 11:35 PM EDT (US) 23 / 157

Thanks for the new stats Garlef, and for posting the full CGO stats.

What about team games? I know we'd rather balance for 1v1 and look at team later, but is it possible at all to see if there are any gross imbalances in team ?

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher

posted 07-17-07 11:41 PM EDT (US) 24 / 157

^ Let's work on 1v1 first O_o

Happy B-Day to patch 1.03 [4 months]

You make it sound like it's a good thing ...

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

Roark
Skirmisher

posted 07-18-07 01:23 AM EDT (US) 25 / 157

It seems as we've gotten more used to 1.03 balance, the results have changed somewhat. I would love to see what the numbers look like ONLY using the last 1-2 months as a sample.

ESO: Naevius

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