been using this since the beginning, 1 pop mantlets are so much fun and pwn many units/buildings
but you can't affond too many cards on them and they are still slow and gold intensive (75w 125g)

great post ulti.

I would try them out if it wasnt for the fact that I won't touch iroq with a bargepole until the patch is out!

The obvious counter for the mantlet is melee cavalry, and hopefully with the boost they will get in 1.04, mantlet spamming will have an efficient counter.

IMO, the biggest problem with cavalry is colonial LI spamming, where 5 hussars will get slaughtered by a group of xbows. I just feel really cheated when this happens. But that's besides the point.....Hopefully this is improved, and your mantlets will get wtfpwned.

I actually tried this strat in treaty once and it worked surprisingly well against a Voltigeur spamming opponent, until he started spamming Gendarmes... Gendarmes>Iroquois.

I agree though that the mantlet is definitely a strong unit.

I wonder if ES even intended for them (and rams as well) to be affected by inf and siege cards. I had them used against me once vs I think one of Glouks smurfs and they just take forever to kill. Toma + mantlet with all their upgrades is pretty scary. Throw a few 3 pop light cannons in there for ranged inf spammers and your set.

Wow, that's new.

Why would you give ideas right after a nerf to iro ...

Tbh a suprisingly bad unit in actual gameplay.

Agreed, it isnt as effective as you would think when you just watch its stats.

I recall playing a team game with Ekanta who basically monopolized the Huron TP on NE...with 120 slow-moving siege units it's impossible to micro them, or even keep them moving through a base once they reach it and start burning things down.

I wonder though, do Siege Discipline and Siege Combat affect minor native matnlets? [/too lazy to look, can't be bothered to open Iro HC to look]

Yea, I remember seeing them a lot earlier, but then Great House/Forest Prowlers/Light Cannons took the role or Iro usage, so no one gave these guys a second look =/.

The mantlets, while they look very nice, don't hold up very well in practice. Their main liability is their speed and little range, as in a couple of skirmishers decently managed can take out a fair amount of them while they trudge across the map, then at the gates of the enemy city, they are slaughtered by enemy cavalry and cannons. Once you break a hole in the wall, it takes forever to get them through, especially if the enemy keeps putting cavalry into the hole. They are very expensive, and while well worth it if used correctly, they have too many liabilities to be a lone-spammed unit. All of the weaknesses pointed out though, they can soak up a lot of damage, and when placed to the side of the enemy town, they can wreak a lot of damage while your enemy is distracted by a larger army. Also, they, coupled with battering rams, can well counter a sevastopol map-control-attempt, as the mohawk (I think) shipment, consisting of six rams and five mantlets, can take out a fort without suffering casualty. So I guess they are good when used right, but not quite so much when spammed solely.

some of you guys seem to miss the point of using mantlets, it is not really to dash out damage, but to absorb damage.

Slow moving and short range aint a problem, because your intended purpose is to push your enemy back, make him lose his grounds, forward base, map control, and eventually his base. his LI can try to HnR, but it will be extremely ineffective, a moderately upgrades elite mantlet 696 hp with WC's presents (3 combat + 20% from WC), it takes 78 shots from skirmishes to kill one.

In team games you can rely your team for supporting unit, in 1v1 you can use your very own Aenna and Tomahawk.

Huron Mantlets however, truly and royally suck. they cost only 25% less but has about half as much ranged HP, that and they dont get boost from Conservative Tactic or Siege Unit boost cards

Whoops, I forgot to add that you can spam about two or three decently-sized armies of cavalry in the time it would take them to get to your base. I'm guessing that could defeat a couple of mantlets. Also, I did a little research on mantlets vs. falconets, your stereotypical cannon. Falconets have 26 range, area attack, 100 damage, and they cost 500 resources. Mantlets have 10 range, 25 damage, and cost 200 resources. So, for every five mantlets you have, there will be two falconets, under the assumption that the economies in question are roughly equivalent. A falconet, one-on-one vs a mantlet, can fire off about 3 rounds; the third will most likely come about the same time as the attack by the mantlet. Please note that I am using a likely estimate. A mantlet has a 50% resistance against ranged attacks, a falconet has 75% ranged resistance. So for every hit the falconet dishes out, the mantlet takes 50 damage. So the mantlet has recieved 150 damage from the falconet by the time it even attacks. Now the mantlet's attacks, with 25 attack to begin with, does 75% less damage against a falconet, so every attack on the falconet will do about... a whopping 6 damage! Eventually, in this case, two falconets well overwhelm five mantlets, especially since two falconets together can take a mantlet down to 100 HP by the time the mantlets start attacking. Couple that with splash effect, and the falconets beat the mantlets for sure. And on an even bigger scale, with more units involved in the fray, splash effect becomes even more potent if managed correctly. And if that's what a falconet can do, imagine a culverin, with its bonus against artillery/siege coupled in, though admittedly culverins have no splash effect. The above stats are used when no upgrades of any sort have been applied to either unit. So mantlets, as you can see, are easily beat. Which isn't to say that they are a bad support unit, when protecting light cannons they are incredibly valuable. So yes, ulti, you were right that they make good support units, but by themselves they aren't really that great.

[This message has been edited by DrumsMaster26 (edited 08-26-2007 @ 10:14 PM).]

mantlets are infantry so obviously are countered by falconets. so what is your point? if youw ant to suggest that massing falcs own mantlets then you have to think again, on how badly LC and 1.04 kanyas own falcs.

Mantlets are not "own all" type of units like Elmiti and imp cuirs, but they are the most powerful answer to LI spamming, at the same time do well against their counters.

it really isnt something I wish to argue any further, if you dont think mantlets are that good, dont use them, its not like I'd lose something.

Alright then. Peace, ultimitsu?

Edit: Adam42 nailed exactly what I was trying to say.

[This message has been edited by DrumsMaster26 (edited 08-27-2007 @ 06:51 PM).]

mantlets seem good when looking at stats and what cards affect the,, in actual gameplay they are not cause they're slow and owned by RI hit and run (who cares if you kill them slowly, he can't do sh1t to you), and by melee cav and cannon. they are good as a support unit and lategame for raiding but they are far, far from op.

mantlets suck. FP and LC are the way to go.

iros already very op in 1.04, and 1.04 isn't even released yet.

nice -_-

you are perfectly right ultimitsu. I always considered mantlets powerful units. However, mantlets are countered by too many commonly-used units, such as other high-hp meatshields like janissaries. Artillery, including abus guns, completely slaughters mantlets. Mantlets also don't do enough damage even with upgrades, so they can't go in and kill the artillery by force. Also the lategame iro economy can't spam mantlets forever. Mantlets also fail to kill cavalry fast enough to defend light cannons.

But even with all of these weaknesses, I conclude that mantlets are powerful.

you are perfectly right ultimitsu. I always considered mantlets powerful units. However, mantlets are countered by too many commonly-used units, such as other high-hp meatshields like janissaries. Artillery, including abus guns, completely slaughters mantlets. Mantlets also don't do enough damage even with upgrades, so they can't go in and kill the artillery by force. Also the lategame iro economy can't spam mantlets forever. Mantlets also fail to kill cavalry fast enough to defend light cannons.

What !? Infantry losing to artillery and cavalry !?

This is an outrage !

-_-

in actual gameplay they are not cause they're slow and owned by RI hit and run (who cares if you kill them slowly, he can't do sh1t to you), and by melee cav and cannon. they are good as a support unit and lategame for raiding but they are far, far from op.

in actual game play they absolutely own LI and you just need to actually use it to find out, instead of theorising how HnR would own them.

the only time HnR mantlet would remotely be feasible is in early fortres when you have 20 skirms and he is pushing with 4~5 mantlets + 10~ish FP, what we are talking about here is late game where there are 10~40 mantlets (in team games), HnR is a joke when these things have way more ranged HP than falconets (they start off the same, but has 85% more after upgrades)

However, mantlets are countered by too many commonly-used units, such as other high-hp meatshields like janissaries. Artillery, including abus guns, completely slaughters mantlets. Mantlets also don't do enough damage even with upgrades, so they can't go in and kill the artillery by force. Also the lategame iro economy can't spam mantlets forever. Mantlets also fail to kill cavalry fast enough to defend light cannons.

Mantlets are only countered by very few units. again, you need to use them properly to understand.

jannisaries certainly dont counter mantlets, nor do most HI HI apart from halbs, yet you can beat halbs easy with Aenna support.

abus and artillery do beat mantlets, because they are the right counter after all.
what you will find is that mantlets stand up to them a lot better than most LI.

Mantlets to protect LC!? FYI mantlets are siege unit/ranged infantry, they are by no means used to protect LC. you have tomas for that.

also Mantlets takes basically replaced LC in sieging and killing LI, in theory you will only need a handful of LC for killing enemey artillery, or kanya for this job in 1.04.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 08-28-2007 @ 03:00 AM).]

85% hit points is really not correct since the Iro WC adds 20% after all other hit points cards have been included (the 20% WC effects actual, not the base). Therefore, after that amazing number of shipments has been sent (usually only possible in FFA or large team games), the unit stats are as follows (+85%, +75%):

Hit Points: 740 (1480 effective versus ranged damage)
Range Damage: 42
Siege Damage (Buildings): 85

With the WC aura, the will have 888 hit points (1776 effective hit points).

Obviously you will not get all of those shipments in your typical game but I agree they are very powerful but would not place them in the OP category yet since they can be countered. French Cuirassiers on the other hand (in late game) cannot be countered cost effectively after all their upgrades have been sent.

I think Janissaries (or any HI) in melee (with upgrades) would do well but cant be sure since I gave up on Iros after winning all my games with them and determining that I should not have.

By the way, my unit comparison spreadsheet (in signature) will allow easy calculation of these values by typing in the yellow input cells the % increase and selecting "Yes" to WC aura.

Before I start:

Gendarmes... Gendarmes>Iroquois

Uhh...yeah. Gendarmes>everything. You wanna see something really bad, watch russian units try to kill gendarmes. 15 gendarmes can kill 70+ russian musks - sad. In this case, though, there is absolutely no reason that you, as iroquois, shouldn't have destroyed the french LONG before he could gendarme spam (~8:30 ish)

Actually, I have been badly owned late game by mantlets. Luckily, the same things counter mantlets and forest prowlers, so if the enemy starts spamming them, you don't have to make a big change in your own army. I actually won that game, he went overboard on the mantlets (because they were destroying me) but I realized that mantlets are slow, that they were almost to my main base, and that I had an entire army of cossacks and opris. I just built 2 forts with a couple musks and went and worked over his economy and he couldn't get back in time - meanwhile I re-lamed seva and took back my part of the map. I guess that's one way to beat it.

Problem is, if I wasnt russia, I doubt I could've done that...

No surprise though. It is iro, after all - the most ludicrously overpowered civilization any age game has ever seen.

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 08-28-2007 @ 04:39 PM).]

obviously everyone's definition if OP is a bit different.

I consider units that beat their intended targets too well, and dont get beaten by their counter well enough to be OP

good examples are aoe3 1.00~1.03 jan + abus, pre 1.08 WW, twc 1.00 rods, etc.

====

FP is not a good unit to combine with Mantlets, in fact FP is not a very good late game unit. their start to break even to non-spanish skirmishers in Guard level with AA and upgrades shipped. after that iro loses due to their eco being so much weaker.

the best support unit for Mantlets are Aennas and tomas, depending on whther enemy is going heavy on infantry or cavalry.

Uhh...yeah. Gendarmes>everything... ...In this case, though, there is absolutely no reason that you, as iroquois, shouldn't have destroyed the french LONG before he could gendarme spam (~8:30 ish)

I love how you skipped through my post and missed part of it.

I actually tried this strat in treaty once and it worked surprisingly well against a Voltigeur spamming opponent, until he started spamming Gendarmes... Gendarmes>Iroquois.

And I tried this shortly after TWC came out, before everyone knew how OP Iros really were.

You should read more carefully.