TAD Stats - Age of Empires III Heaven Forum

Topic Subject: TAD Stats

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Garlef
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 00:49 AM EDT (US)

Thanks must go to ESO Tools for gathering the raw data that makes the following charts possible.

Note:
All data is for Supremacy 1v1 with Mirror games excluded and Game length > 200 seconds

GO = PR Ranks Brigadier through Marshal
FGO = PR Ranks Major through Colonel
CGO = PR Ranks 2nd Lieutenant through Captain
NCO = PR Ranks Lance Corporal through Master Sergeant

(Equal Rank -> means that both players had the same PR Rank, example: Captain vs Captain, Brigadier v Brigadier)

How to read the Civ vs. Civ Table:
The Civ along the left edge is the winning civ.. the columns are the civs that lost.
Example: For Dutch vs Ports, Dutch won 23 and Ports won 16 games.

GO v GO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)

Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Russian    97     64    65.98%    5.18%
Chinese    254    158   62.20%   13.57%
Sioux      127    79    62.20%    6.78%
Aztec      94     56    59.57%    5.02%
Dutch      188    102   54.26%   10.04%
Spanish    106    57    53.77%    5.66%
Iroquois   38     19    50.00%    2.03%
Ottoman    134    66    49.25%    7.16%
German     50     24    48.00%    2.67%
Indian     263    120   45.63%   14.05%
Portuguese 69     27    39.13%    3.69%
British    79     30    37.97%    4.22%
Japanese   277    100   36.10%   14.80%
French     96     34    35.42%    5.13%
Total      1872   936

FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)

Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese    2985   1873  62.75%  16.80%
Russian    700    383   54.71%   3.94%
Aztec      872    474   54.36%   4.91%
Sioux      677    365   53.91%   3.81%
Ottoman    1626   864   53.14%   9.15%
German     783    403   51.47%   4.41%
Dutch      1580   789   49.94%   8.89%
Indian     2264   1097  48.45%  12.74%
Spanish    824    395   47.94%   4.64%
Iroquois   491    233   47.45%   2.76%
British    953    421   44.18%   5.36%
Portuguese 458    188   41.05%   2.58%
Japanese   2596   1026  39.52%  14.61%
French     955    371   38.85%   5.38%
Total      17764  8882

CGO v CGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)

Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese    6984   4441  63.59%  18.02%
Ottoman    2693   1540  57.19%   6.95%
Aztec      1540   879   57.08%   3.97%
Sioux      1622   904   55.73%   4.18%
Russian    1963   1089  55.48%   5.06%
German     1365   703   51.50%   3.52%
Dutch      3486   1713  49.14%   8.99%
Iroquois   803    387   48.19%   2.07%
Indian     4036   1906  47.22%  10.41%
Spanish    1625   731   44.98%   4.19%
British    2629   1145  43.55%   6.78%
French     2708   1139  42.06%   6.99%
Japanese   6589   2530  38.40%  17.00%
Portuguese 723    276   38.17%   1.87%
Total      38766  19383

FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded, Equal Rank)

     Az   Br   Ch   Du   Fr   Ge   In   Iro  Ja   Ot   Po   Ru   Si   Sp   Wins
Az   --   24   55   49   25   25   52   26   56   57   16   21   45   23   474
Br   21   --   60   34   29   16   64   10   84   26   19   15   16   27   421
Chi  74   103  --   231  125  68   310  58   475  170  64   65   41   89   1873
Du   50   43   90   --   58   38   109  29   145  75   23   38   39   52   789
Fr   18   20   53   42   --   25   49   5    52   37   13   22   14   21   371
Ge   13   35   54   45   34   --   56   8    61   44   13   14   11   15   403
In   48   72   225  86   77   41   --   27   281  98   27   38   40   37   1097
Ir   17   18   36   25   13   11   37   --   26   9    6    7    24   4    233
Ja   40   61   212  79   65   57   233  22   --   105  38   26   33   55   1026
Ot   43   56   126  76   69   49   108  27   157  --   25   42   26   60   864
Po   10   15   24   16   13   2    18   7    33   27   --   9    3    11   188
Ru   20   37   53   29   29   8    46   7    79   43   8    --   6    18   383
Si   34   23   65   34   21   22   39   24   38   33   6    9    --   17   365
Sp   10   25   59   45   26   18   46   8    83   38   12   11   14   --   395
Loss 398  532  1112 791  584  380  1167 258  1570 762  270  317  312  429  8882

The following tables are when both players are of the same Rank level (GO, FGO, or CGO)
GO v GO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)

Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Iroquois   148    92    62.16%   3.55%
Chinese    562    346   61.57%  13.48%
Russian    182    102   56.04%   4.36%
Sioux      248    136   54.84%   5.95%
Dutch      427    234   54.80%  10.24%
Spanish    190    101   53.16%   4.56%
Aztec      179    92    51.40%   4.29%
British    232    115   49.57%   5.56%
Portuguese 135    66    48.89%   3.24%
Ottoman    284    138   48.59%   6.81%
Indian     561    261   46.52%  13.45%
German     146    60    41.10%   3.50%
Japanese   654    256   39.14%  15.68%
French     222    86    38.74%   5.32%
Total      4170   2085

FGO v FGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)

Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese    7073   4280  60.51%  16.26%
Russian    1650   927   56.18%   3.79%
Aztec      2198   1206  54.87%   5.05%
Ottoman    4045   2217  54.81%   9.30%
Sioux      1738   928   53.39%   4.00%
German     1922   991   51.56%   4.42%
Dutch      3982   2009  50.45%   9.15%
Spanish    2096   1005  47.95%   4.82%
Indian     5435   2590  47.65%  12.49%
Iroquois   1240   571   46.05%   2.85%
Portuguese 1283   570   44.43%   2.95%
British    2188   930   42.50%   5.03%
Japanese   6300   2617  41.54%  14.48%
French     2348   908   38.67%   5.40%
Total      43498  21749

CGO v CGO 1v1 Supremacy Patch 1.00 (Mirror excluded)

Civ       Games   Wins   Win%    Usage%
Chinese    16035  9739  60.74%  17.82%
Sioux      3786   2120  56.00%   4.21%
Ottoman    6402   3518  54.95%   7.11%
Russian    4534   2429  53.57%   5.04%
Aztec      3578   1913  53.47%   3.98%
German     3099   1610  51.95%   3.44%
Dutch      8151   4065  49.87%   9.06%
Spanish    3835   1889  49.26%   4.26%
Iroquois   1884   925   49.10%   2.09%
Indian     9537   4576  47.98%  10.60%
British    5942   2666  44.87%   6.60%
French     6051   2586  42.74%   6.72%
Portuguese 1779   727   40.87%   1.98%
Japanese   15381  6234  40.53%  17.09%
Total      89994  44997

[This message has been edited by Garlef (edited 02-06-2008 @ 11:37 AM).]

Author

Replies:

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 01:34 AM EDT (US) 1 / 52

At last

Check out the russians, what the hell o.O Very low usage, very high win in FGO vs. FGO (GO vs. GO probably too small as usual).

Chinese massively on top, no surprise there, great work by ES as usual :P Looks like they really have the japanese bent over and begging for more o.O

The japanese are shockingly low, might have to rethink those ashi nerfs...

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 01:37 AM).]

ultimitsu
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 04:02 AM EDT (US) 2 / 52

so india is actually mid-ranked as oppose to rock bottom like everyone thinks...

french is almost the weakest despite common belief if it being top 4.

Russian and aztec are amongst the top civs, although everyone thinks they are of the lower tier.

Spanish is almost UP.

stats must be speaking the truth!!

Strategy by Ultimitsu
Guns and Biers
British Anti-FF explosion
For TWC only Ottoman FF on non-water non-TP maps
For Vanilla only Dutch Fast Colonial Uber Bank

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 02-06-2008 @ 04:03 AM).]

Colonel_UGMO
Veteran Musketeer (Content Contributor)

posted 02-06-08 05:27 AM EDT (US) 3 / 52

So CGO's are the biggest lamers

Dam thats me

PS I've never played China in rated

ESO NAME: UGMO
RANK: 1st Lieutenant
I AM USING: TAD
I AM PLAYING: The Aztecs, British and Russians
.oO James246: Well, you wouldn't be able to sigg any dumb things I say, because I don't say them. :P Oo.

Grottenmolch
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 07:29 AM EDT (US) 4 / 52

BIG thx to Garlef!

French and the brits are so damn low? Really weird.

The sioux usage is so low? Arent they op?

I think many players have wandered from Iro to China...

It looks like that french and brits are more up compared to India, lol!

IMO is spanish not so up as it seems (if you check the go vs go section, they seem pretty solid).

And russians and aztecs are the calm and secret winners...

Killa4life
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 08:29 AM EDT (US) 5 / 52

Yeah, stats say it all... rofl

Please Garlef could you give us the stats of GO vs GO and FGO vs FGO but not only equal rank but vs everyone within his/her category? (e.g. brigadier not only vs other brigs but also vs lt general etc)

Because I only very seldomly play vs people who have EXACTL my rank, often vs guys 3-5 + or -

Ekanta
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 09:03 AM EDT (US) 6 / 52

Truth can a chocking if u lived in a dream world for too long.

Try my AoE3 customized User Interface

ganggreene51
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 09:44 AM EDT (US) 7 / 52

bout time. I was wondering where you went, hoping you didn't leave us. Thanks

To me it is a good judgment of balance if it weren't for dutch. To me dutch throws a wrench into solely looking at stats. But in general these are a good indicator.

These are probably the most unusual stats yet though. Japan doesn't appear UP. This may be do to the new civs getting beat. But then you have india throwing a wrench into that. I'm just shaking my head. Hmmmm.

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.

Foy Lyndstrom- "Villagers doing nothing don't do anything."

[This message has been edited by ganggreene51 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 09:48 AM).]

CunniJA
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 01:28 PM EDT (US) 8 / 52

I agree with the head shaking. I would say that Japan suffers bigtime from the noob factor, but they are low at GO too. I think the stats show that Dutch however, are suffering from the noob factor.

A_S: "Cunni's pic wins thread otherwise failing due to being 5-7 years behind the times."
"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
C_MAG: "CunniJA's post is epic win."

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 03:11 PM EDT (US) 9 / 52

The stats aren't bad, you just have to look at them more carefully than normal. Obviously, the asian civs were, and still are to some extent, being played massively more than most of the older civs.

When you look at that and then go to civ vs civ win tables, you see that japan is generally losing to both of the other asian civs. They are also losing to the ottomans, and losing profusely against the dutch, which were also played heavily. When you consider those factors, you could argue that japan is not as madly underpowered as the win % stats would suggest, since they are badly losing to the most commonly played civs (chinese and dutch are 2 for 1 against them).

As for the dutch, the chinese (most played) absolutely destroyed them, which dropped their win % noticeably lower than it should be.

Then, the russians for example, you have them stomping the japanese and the ottomans, two of the most played civs. Their win % is inflated higher than it should be.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 03:19 PM).]

Walker_5
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 03:56 PM EDT (US) 10 / 52

acctually, you have to look at civ vs civ, make the win % between two civs at a time.

(Russia has one win more then Ottomans in the table above)

AgeSanctuary Staff member.

[This message has been edited by Walker_5 (edited 02-06-2008 @ 04:18 PM).]

Dr House
Skirmisher
(id: RealityFatalityz)

posted 02-06-08 08:40 PM EDT (US) 11 / 52

all i can say is french are really weak.. i mean, even i always considered them alright/balanced, but they just don't seem to cut it at any level.. perhaps a boost will be in the future?

��`��RealityFatality��`��"So, what do you guys think? What's theverdict? OP, or do I need to stop smoking crack?""I don't have hard drives. I just keep 30 chinese teenagers in my basement and force them to memorize numbers"

[This message has been edited by Kiverly Spears (edited 18-12-2008 @ 9:21 PM).]

CunniJA
Skirmisher

posted 02-06-08 10:34 PM EDT (US) 12 / 52

The problem is, how do you go about boosting the French? You certainly can't boost Cuira. First off, what are the French really struggling against? I mean, they really are a decent civilization, so I don't see why they are doing so bad. The 2 Rax XBow/Pike spam works pretty well against most civilizations. The Fast Fortress is quite good as well. I don't know why they are doing so poorly. If we can identify that, then we can figure out possible boosts, but at the current time, I don't think we can make any suggestions in that area really yet.

A_S: "Cunni's pic wins thread otherwise failing due to being 5-7 years behind the times."
"Brilliant cunni simply brilliant"
C_MAG: "CunniJA's post is epic win."

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher

posted 02-07-08 00:43 AM EDT (US) 13 / 52

Well, a general xbow boost in some way has been mulled over by the community basically since the game came out, that'd help the french O.o Ports too, unfortunately it'd also help the germans who seem pretty close to balanced from the win % stats.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

Killa4life
Skirmisher

posted 02-07-08 05:53 AM EDT (US) 14 / 52

rofl rofl rofl

rofl rofl rofl

"unfortunately it'd also help the germans "

AHAHAHA because we all know France<<<Germany. AhahahahaAHA I cant stop laughing sorry. For basically any civ I can use Germany is easily the easiest one to bash on.

"Well, a general xbow boost in some way has been mulled over by the community basically since the game came out"

LMAO srsly you keep cracking me up. YEAH please boost xbows because they are SO WEAK ahahaAHAHa maybe you should see a nice xbow rush I think. The only thing xbows suck against is upgraded/strong HI, however that simply means they need to be CHANGED (better vs HI, weaker overall by a bit) not boosted. Big difference.

In an attempt to explain why France is doing "so badly":

=> People think France is rather strong (well france IS rather decent so no surprise) so they play vs all civs. They are not really afraid of facing op civs etc. However, the french do still get raped pretty hardcore by those civs like dutch and china. Therefore France's win% is pretty low.�
A civ like Russia tho is commonly considered weak, therefore the Russia players avoid the OP civs or try to. Therefore Russia has less harder matchups and ergo a better win%.

That just proves that ignoring any backround info and just looking at the stats without using your brain and trying to base balance suggestions on this is complete nonsense.

One reason why I dislike those stats here, they are taken way too seriously and people just look at the numbers and think "hey oh france my fav civ is soo weak BOOST BOOST" without thinking...

Walker_5
Skirmisher

posted 02-07-08 05:58 AM EDT (US) 15 / 52

French has negative stat vs ALL civs but Ports, whom they tie.

Hard to tell why their numbers are soo bad though.

AgeSanctuary Staff member.

Ekanta
Skirmisher

posted 02-07-08 11:08 AM EDT (US) 16 / 52

In the same stats from TWC, month after month, french always were below 50% (although the "wise" community "knew" the french to be top 4).

Try my AoE3 customized User Interface

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher

posted 02-07-08 03:22 PM EDT (US) 17 / 52

Killa, that was the most belligerent reply to a post I've seen in a while from anyone other than killmaim. I wonder if having kill in your name automatically makes you a jerk.

What are you smoking? The germans are ranked above the french in every single stat list here, and hover very close to 50% win in both of the FGO vs FGO lists, without excelling against any of the highly used civs. Maybe they're low on the 2nd GO vs GO list, but the iroquois are on top of that list. Less important but still notable is the fact that germany is beating france when they play each other - usually that wouldn't mean much, but the two civs are very similar in build and play style, moreso than most other civ matches. The numbers say that germany doesn't need a boost, and france and ports do. But obviously your personal opinion is much more important than the ~44k games it took to make just the FGO vs. FGO stats.

Xbows aren't weak, but then again I didn't say they were. I've not only seen xbow rushes, but performed them myself. And I play the germans, too - when I switched to the germans from the japanese, I went up 2.5 PR in a couple of days. I said people have talked about an xbow boost a lot in the past. They don't actually counter anything (with a multiplier - almost every infantry unit in the game has a multiplier against something). A jan rush is far more effective against an xbow civ than, say, the dutch. At times, it was noted that every civ that had xbows for their colonial LI was anywhere from slightly UP to very UP, so people considered an xbow boost. I observed two of those civs currently showing as UP, and brought up that old suggestion, but then rebutted it with the fact that the germans don't need a boost, so if you could read, you would've realized that I actually wasn't even suggesting an xbow boost. I guess you were already laughing to hard to realize that you were a moron.

P.S: Russia, like every other civ, played plenty of games against the chinese (almost 17% of their games) and the dutch (9% of their games). The french played against the chinese in 18.6% of their games. The chinese played against the dutch in about 10.7% of their games.

So russia played against the dutch 9% of the time, while chinese played against them 10.7% of the time. Russia played against the chinese 17% of the time, while french played against them 18.6% of the time. Not much difference in those numbers, and I'm sure that if I tested more civs, their percentages would be close to those values as well.

There's little evidence to suggest that russia in particular avoided matchups against the OP civs. Maybe you should actually look at the stats instead of spewing your opinion as gospel fact.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

[This message has been edited by exc4libulz1022 (edited 02-07-2008 @ 04:27 PM).]

Dr House
Skirmisher
(id: RealityFatalityz)

posted 02-07-08 04:50 PM EDT (US) 18 / 52

pwn3d

kilmaim
Skirmisher

posted 02-07-08 06:22 PM EDT (US) 19 / 52

Quoted from exc4libulz1022:
Killa, that was the most belligerent reply to a post I've seen in a while from anyone other than killmaim. I wonder if having kill in your name automatically makes you a jerk.

...and how about our prestigious moderators! Or do you guys only chime in when it's convenient? I'm not starting a flame here - just looking for a little reciprocation and a little consideration...

@exc4libulz1022
Is this along the lines of casting the first stone...eh?

TOPIC
The funny thing is that now the proof is in the pudding! The Brits certainly need a BOOST! STILL! It would seem that all my ranting over how UP the Brits are is finally proven to have legitimacy now that the stats are finally here!

Now, don't we think it's time to do something about it. And I'm not talking about an Auto-vet Politician! And I'm not talking about an "INDIRECT" boost - I'm talking about a substantive DIRECT BOOST!

[This message has been edited by kilmaim (edited 02-07-2008 @ 06:30 PM).]

chisquared
Skirmisher

posted 02-08-08 04:26 AM EDT (US) 20 / 52

well i always thought the french were balanced too, but as mentioned previously it is hard to ignore a large amount of data that says otherwise. Perhaps the idea that the french are balanced is partly an illusion/mental-thing. I know whenever i play against them i always have thoughts like: 'can't let them get those OP cuirr tanks, can't raid their cdbs, better watch out for their x-bow rush, etc etc' when in reality all of these things can be handled ok (in supremacy). also seeing good experts beating dutch/chinese players adds to the illusion if you forget that a lot of the time it is the other way around.

Not too sure exactly why they are struggling so much though, someone should start another thread on it because it is quite interesting. i always felt they were supposed to be a booming civ, but they can be outboomed by british/dutch/firepit-natives and they struggle against a strong military force (ottomans/chinese). maybe their unique bonuses don't deliver the punch when it is needed. eg. cuirrs are great lategame but struggle with pathing in Age3 like all cavalry, cdbs are good but if you plan to fight with them you are losing valuable resource gathering time...

Not sure about boosting though, it will be tricky. 6cdbs start would be too much, you could try 5cdbs+1 villager... anyway, just a few crazy thoughts...

good work on the stats Garlef, certainly raises some interesting points.

Zongo
Skirmisher

posted 02-08-08 04:27 AM EDT (US) 21 / 52

nice stats, too bad they don't say anything about balance at all
(oh, except that china is OP lol)

Old Indian: Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake."

[This message has been edited by Zongo (edited 02-08-2008 @ 04:27 AM).]

Grottenmolch
Skirmisher

posted 02-08-08 05:52 AM EDT (US) 22 / 52

Exc4libulz1022 and Zongo are right. This is only a hint of balacing because these stats just show how the civs fought each other in certain ranks, not how balanced they are!

It is very surprising, but realistic if you think of russia and aztecs matching against the most used civs.

Due to these stats you can also have the great idea of boosting the CGO players because there are so many of them compared to the FGO and GO! The CGO players can start with two vils+, and the FGO with only one vil+!

lol

[This message has been edited by Grottenmolch (edited 02-08-2008 @ 05:52 AM).]

Brtnboarder495
Skirmisher

posted 02-08-08 03:35 PM EDT (US) 23 / 52

Russian 97 64 65.98% 5.18%
Chinese 254 158 62.20% 13.57%
Sioux 127 79 62.20% 6.78%
Aztec 94 56 59.57% 5.02%
Dutch 188 102 54.26% 10.04%
Spanish 106 57 53.77% 5.66%
Iroquois 38 19 50.00% 2.03%
Ottoman 134 66 49.25% 7.16%
German 50 24 48.00% 2.67%
Indian 263 120 45.63% 14.05%
Portuguese 69 27 39.13% 3.69%
British 79 30 37.97% 4.22%
Japanese 277 100 36.10% 14.80%
French 96 34 35.42% 5.13%

I'd say this makes complete sense, with exceptions to Russia, Japan and France. Japan I feel is stronger than that, and France should definitely be mid tier. I would predict Russia would be mid ranged or lower too.

Oh well, can't argue the facts.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_

exc4libulz1022
Skirmisher

posted 02-08-08 10:20 PM EDT (US) 24 / 52

^ Remember though that the population of GO vs GO games is always far smaller (and therefore, possibly less accurate) than the other game categories. This time, the other categories are all 10-20 times larger in size than their GO counterparts. It'd be foolish to take the CGO vs. CGO stats too seriously, it'd be best if there were a lot more GOs out there to play each other. Unfortunately, there is not, so we are left with FGO vs FGO being probably the best indicator of balance.

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

ganggreene51
Skirmisher

posted 02-08-08 10:58 PM EDT (US) 25 / 52

As far as stats are concerned for balance, they are not the end all. Certainly neither is expert opinion. Stats- opinion -and common sense. Although it will never exist that is the best way to get to near balance.

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.

Foy Lyndstrom- "Villagers doing nothing don't do anything."

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