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Scenario Design
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Topic Subject: RPG Guide
posted 08-31-09 11:04 PM EDT (US)   
RPG Guide
By - Damari


First I’ll start with the basics. I’m sure most of you all ready know these facts but this can be an important part of game development. I also suggest, if you don’t already know, is to familiarize yourself with triggers. You can find help here Wiki trigger help this is important since triggers will be a driving force to your scenario. This guide is geared around single player scenarios. If you wish to make a multiplayer scenario, then read this guide CSO by MosheLevi.

I personally don’t mod, so this guide is about you and the editor, nothing more. I guess I’m ‘old school’ and believe the tools given should be used accordingly. That being said; if I was given a shovel to dig a hole, I’m not about to complain I don’t have a backhoe. It may be harder to do the job, but the hole can still be dug. So when all is said and done, I’ll stand back, and admire my accomplishment! Just remember – If there’s a will, there’s a way. I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t give up if you run into trouble with the editor. Just think of it as a challenge. Are you up for a good challenge? If you are, then lets make an amazing RPG!

What you will need:
1.An 80-page notebook and a pencil.
2.Basic editor knowledge.
3.A good short story, preferably written out in your notebook.


What is a RPG (Role-Playing Game)?

A game, which character development, is the main driving force of game play. The player controls one character, usually the hero of a story. The player will have a goal to reach and this goal can be introduced at anytime within the game play. An example would be to save the heroine from the villain. This can be achieved through actions set out by the game designer. It should involve interacting with NPC’s (Non-player characters). As the story takes shape, so should the said character – Increasing inventory, combat etc. through puzzles, and problem solving.

RPG’s were developed in the mid‘70’s, derived from D&D. The traditional RPG was turn-based in a fantasy setting. However, this has since changed when video consoles were introduced. J.R.R Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings influenced D&D extending to some games such as – Warcraft, Elder Scrolls etc. Today, you can find many variations of the genre. From strategy to real-time strategy (RTS) to turn-based strategy (TBS). An example would be – Some Final Fantasy games use both RTS and TBS.

Story Development:

RPG’s are much like a story – Beginning, middle and ending. It is up to you, the designer to introduce the story, giving the tools needed for the player to grow. So while your sitting there staring at that blank map, think about a story. Either one you have read, or were told, even one of your own. Write down some descriptions and the main elements to your story.


  • Where is this place – Open world, a city, the desert, in the mountains?
  • When does the story take place? Remember, just because AOE3 is based on colonial history, doesn’t mean you need your story to follow.
  • Scenery – Landscape, eye-candy, buildings, weather.


Now that you have the basics, go back to your blank map and start by adding the setting. First, size your map. No larger than 600x600. Turn off all your graphics settings because this will help you with eye-candy later on. Your story is coming alive! At this point don’t worry about adding too much terrain, just the basic. If you have a hard time with terrain, take a walk outside. Walk around the block and perhaps to the park. What do you see? Look at the grass near buildings, at the foot of the trees. Is it any different than the grass in the park? Are there rocks and or shrubs? Keep in mind, adding too much will cause lag and slow upload times. You can find out more here - Map Size

Next is the plot. The plot is a series of events and character action that relate to the conflict. It should include challenges for the hero to over come. Examples would be - enemy’s to fight, relationships, chases, obstacles, puzzles and more. Remember there should be an element of challenge and an element of realism.

The world:

It is the your job to design the backdrop and more importantly you need to establish a goal for the player and give the needed tools to discover your goal. The player will explore your world and will react to it. Never reveal the full details of the world, as the game progresses, the details will come clearer to the player. I personally like the freedom of movement in the world. It allows the player to travel and explore freely. Mind you I still add locked doors/gates and few impassable paths. These I will open as a reward for completing certain tasks.

The hero should travel far, navigating through obstacles to get him to his destination, be it the next village, or quest area. You must think about a couple things first. How long does it take him to travel? Perhaps there is a better way of transportation, like teleport? Make sure the player isn’t bored while travelling. Always and I mean always have movement on the map. Have unexpected events accrue – IE: Enemies jumping out at the hero on paths. Perhaps have a NPC stop him and ask for help, but make sure the player is not bored while travelling. This is a great time to use the QV random effect.

The main goal could be a quest like the example above – saving the heroine.


  • How does the hero know he must save her?
  • Is it her father who asks for your help?
  • Perhaps the hero needs to save a village from the enemy. Is the village an ally or enemy?
  • Maybe the hero must negotiate with the village to learn about their enemy. How will the hero fight the enemy?
  • What will the hero earn by doing so?


But for the duration of this guide, I will use something very simple – Buying milk at the store. Sound odd? Read on!

The main quest (goal) can lead to smaller quests. These quests can help with character development, which I’ll explain below. Quests are much like puzzles. You will need to give the player hints – Where to begin, what to look for, who to talk to. The player must piece together these hints and discover the outcome him/herself, earning a reward.

Quests and objectives:

Think of quests as everyday events. Here is an example:

1)Primary – You need to run to the store and buy milk.
2)Secondary – But you can’t find your wallet, and search the house for money.
3)Secondary – You now have some money but notice you have a flat tire.
4)Secondary – You have a choice, should you walk or take the bus to the store?
5)Secondary – You chose to walk. But on your way, you run into some thugs.

You know the primary goal is to buy milk. You’re probably asking how do I give hints for that? Ok, ask yourself these questions:


  • Who wants you to get milk? Hint: Talk with the Leader.
  • Why do you need milk? Hint: The people are hungry and need food.
  • Which store sells milk? Hint: There is a small town North. The people there can help you.


Of course for your scenario you will need to elaborate on your hints. Lets jump past the secondary objectives for a second. And go straight to the ending of the primary goal. Say you have arrived at the small town; most of the people there won’t talk to you. You find one person who will talk, and this person tells you strangers have been coming to town as of late, robbing the stores. These thugs only show up at night. The people in town don’t trust anyone. This has lead us to the Hidden objective. You talk with another person and she tells you her son has disappeared. You search the lands and after a lot of turmoil you find the lost son, return him and the people of the town are so grateful.

You see what I just did? I branched out the primary goal even more. But this one was hidden. This is the same as the secondary goals. You can branch them out as well and each secondary goal will take you closer to your main objective, earning rewards on the way.

Lets look at 4) Secondary – You have a choice, should you walk or take the bus to the store? It is a good idea to give players choices where there will be both awards and consequences for their actions. In this case, the consequence was the thugs.

Imagine how far you can take this quest. Did you ever think going to buy milk could be so much fun? =P

Some secondary objectives don’t need to lead to the primary goal. You can add extra just to give a reward or perhaps throw the player off track. Perhaps a small quest to earn extra gold. With quests the possibilities are endless.

This is where some of you may have trouble adding objectives to your scenarios. You can find help here Adding objectives I personally don’t like to hide my objectives because I want the player to keep a log of events, but that is totally up to you and your particular scenario.

The objectives are great to give the basic information. But I suggest you have NPC’s who give out hints also. IE: Your hero stops to talk with a villager.

Villager1

“What do you want?”
“Oh, your that hero. The one that is supposed to help us?”
“Well I can’t help you. Just go away! I’m too hungry to talk.”

Villager2

“Did you ever wonder what’s in the Milky Way?”
“I heard if you travel North, you can see it better.”


With this editor it can be difficult to get your message across to the player. RPG’s are that much more difficult because the designer must stay In Character. What I mean by this is you must not use direct statements in your objectives and/or hints. An example of Direct statement would be:

Villager1

“What do you want?”
“Well, I’m too hungry to talk with you.”
“A tall glass of milk will help.”

Villager2

“There is a village north of us that sells milk.”
“There is a Lady there that is missing her son, talk to her.”


In the above statements you will notice I have told the hero where to go, who to talk with and what they need to find. This is a not a good idea since it won’t force the player to talk with the Leader (quest giver), and find out more on their own.

The player must stay IN Character even when reading hints/objectives. Out Of Character (OOC) is usually frowned upon in RPG’s. You can find examples of how other designers do this by games such as Splinter Cell, Gears of War etc. In these games you will notice they designed it so there is a training area, which keeps them In Character. They could have easily told you what to do.

By now you should have a pretty good idea what your map will look like, and should add your quest areas while they are still fresh in you mind. You don’t need to elaborate on them right now, just rough them in.

Character Development:

Characters in RPG’s generally correspond with statistics (stats).

  • Experience points (xp): XP can be given via unit kills and or quests etc. Once a certain amount is obtained, the hero will progress in level increasing skills.
  • Skill points: And again, these can be earned as above. Unlike XP, the hero can use skill points to buy upgrades rather than wait to advance in level.


You could also use gold to gain skills. The hero can buy items such as a new rifle, which will give more attack (because buying milk can be so dangerous). Perhaps a new helm to give more health points (hp).

You can also give the player a choice at the beginning on which unit they want to use. Or perhaps they can trade in their unit for a stronger one. Keep in mind you will need to add the other unit to your trigger sequences.

As your game progresses so should the hero. This is where balance comes into play. The enemy should seemingly grow more intelligent. As you are giving upgrades to your hero, add to your trigger sequence and give the enemy the same upgrades, not in every upgrade, but enough to make it look as if the enemy is getting stronger.

RPG’s are not necessarily about killing the enemy. Do not confuse Super Hero with Hero. Your hero should not be a ‘god’ sort of speak. RPG’s are about problem solving, conflict, courage and fighting for a cause.

Definitions of hero on the Web:

  • a man distinguished by exceptional courage and nobility and strength; "RAF pilots were the heroes of the Battle of Britain"
  • the principal character in a play or movie or novel or poem
  • champion: someone who fights for a cause


A Fireman, a police officer, soldiers are all heroes. They are much like you and I but what makes them different is courage. Keep this in mind while building your hero.

AI (Artificial Intelligence) Development:

I suggest Gaia for main support, such as the main city/town. I realize there can be a difference of opinion when using Gaia, so I suggest testing it and finding your niche. The reason is; the AI won’t attack unless provoked to do so. This will give your hero more movement within the city and surrounding areas. I found working with Gaia has more advantages.


  • Set your map up for 3 players:
  • Player1 being your hero.
  • Player2 set AI – aiLoaderStandard.
  • Player3 set AI - Age3AI


To utilize AI, you must first set it up in the Player Data Panel in the editor. After you set player1 &2 for the enemy, select the same civilization (civ), same colour, same team and same name for each. At this point you may wish to hide either or both AI. Once this is done, close the Player Data Panel, and your ready to begin by setting triggers to do your bidding with the Age3AI. Also don’t forget to set Gaia as ally and enemy to your AI.

Player2: aiLoaderStandard:
Make sure they have Home City shipments. Build up their town, giving them enough resources, but watch them. Time how long it takes them to build, how long to make an army. I suggest you test this by ‘save as’, exit editor and test from main menu. Make notes and learn about the AI you have created. Keep in mind, every time you edit terrain, add/remove resources, the AI will act accordingly, so test after each change. Basically you want player2 to act on their own accord. Their only purpose is to add movement on your map.

Player3: Age3AI:
This AI can be a most useful and powerful tool when used in conjunction with the aiLoaderStandard. When using this AI the player will actually be playing two different civilizations (civs) but will get the impression of playing one. This gives the designer an added ability to be in control of his/her scenario, if triggers are set properly. You can read more here - AI Forced Attack

The designer can deploy armies, then move the armies to any point and instruct it on what to do at any given time in the scenario. This is also possible with individual units.


  • You can direct them to build.
  • Cut wood.
  • Mine gold.
  • Or claim a nugget that could launch a special event or condition in your scenario.


As you can imagine, it opens up many new possibilities. Yet this is dependent on your abilities with trigger members. The more familiar you are with them, and how they work, the more possibilities will open up. Experiment and have fun!

Overview:

Use your notebook for ideas and map sketches. Write down character names, places, and civs. Describe your hero and detailed event descriptions. What rewards are you planning on giving your hero? Write them down as well. When you begin your map work, it might be best to work in sections because designing an RPG can be overwhelming.

Building a scenario of this magnitude can take weeks, if not months to complete, be patient, and try not to rush it.

Plan out every detail for you scenario. Always de-bug your scenario before release. Inspect each and every trigger, no matter how good you think you are; it’s very easy to make simple mistakes when you’re working with literally hundreds of triggers. If you run into trouble with triggers, read this article When Triggers Stop Working

There is a save bug which will remove any upgrades you give the hero via HC cards. Mister SCP worked very hard and made a few custom effects and conditions to help nullify this issue. You can read more here Save bug

At this point you should be near completion of your scenario, and your notebook should be full of notes. If your still having some trouble, I found these sites helpful as well:

HG scenario help

ES User Content

Mister SCP scenario help

Wiki FAQ

RPG Trigger template

I would like to thank Kjn for all his help and support. Also for his help writting the AI portion of this guide. If it wasn’t for his patience over at ES, I would have surely given up.

Lastly, I hope designers find this guide useful, perhaps we will see more RPG’s.

And most of all – Experiment and Have Fun!

Damari

[This message has been edited by Damari (edited 09-02-2009 @ 04:16 AM).]

Replies:
posted 09-01-09 09:25 AM EDT (US)     1 / 16  
Hey, have you considered actually putting this in the Wiki in the RPG design area? Take some screenshots of your work in the Editor to supplement the areas you think need a good pic for explanation. If you don't already have one, request a wiki password and user account from Zen.

One of the more challenging aspects of making RPG is multiplayer RPG. Any thoughts on how you might extend your principles to a multiplayer RPG game? Examples from the past include Fall of Russia, Zellda: The King's Darkness, and SCP's Broken Empire. Besides the much more prominent role of lag, what do you think of character balance and cooperative abilities? How do I make an RPG map for 4 different players so that everyone is able to contribute to a major objective, but nobody gets bored?

IIRC none of the other Wiki guides on RPG creation have much to say about multiplayer, probably because you couldn't play custom scenarios online until more recently.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
posted 09-01-09 09:38 AM EDT (US)     2 / 16  
Very good guide should realy help people who want to develop there RPG while trying to keep the plot 'in-character' as it were. I don't like the 600*600 limit though, while good for a first RPG there is no harm in being abmbitous and I would like to see a 1000*1000.

You have missed out the most important sections though IMO; gameplay and presentation. The guides pretty excellent for someone making a general RPG but isn't specific enough for AOE3 (except on the AI section and story telling), which is very hard to design an RPG for. Someone trying needs to know how to create gameplay that can be fun as RPGs can easily become tedious if done wrong. As well as needing to know what triggers and cinematics to use to make the RPG feel polished.

Its a good guide I would recommend other designers to read as an introduction to the art of RPG creation but I hope in future somebody can create other guides for specific areas of RPGs.

Also are you working on a new RPG? I am really looking foward to your next one.

Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
ESO = sandstorm....................................................................................."I won the bet on 1.04!"
posted 09-01-09 11:46 AM EDT (US)     3 / 16  
As for map size limit, this is up for debate.

Four major things limit the online playability of an RPG map.

a) Overall map size and flatness. More vertices = more kb's. More landscaping and cliffs/heights/valleys = more kb's.
b) Gaia object density. More eyecandy, especially more eyecandy revealed to players at any given time, = more lag.
c) Trigger timing. Spread out triggers lag/OOS less than bunched ones all trying to fire at the same time.
d) Area revealed at a time. When all players are together, less of the map is revealed than when each player is in a different area doing a side quest. As a rule, smaller maps have fewer side quest areas, so tend to lag less.

A good example of a large map size RPG that runs fine in multiplayer: Fall of Russia. The map size is over 600x600 but the RPG element is basically a winding canyon, with occasional wider "boss" areas sparsely furnished with a few gaia props.

Another example is Defenders of the Empire, which is a long narrow 1000 x 400 map. The entire RPG consists of a long straight canyon with wider spots containing a few military buildings you can capture.

Mèrs makes sprawling RPG maps larger than 700x700 but has several techniques to reduce lag and improve game flow. Firstly, his settings are usually medieval fantasy worlds set in the countryside and punctuated by farmsteads and natural landmarks, not by large urban areas. His cities and villages are nice to look at, but do not use a high density of Gaia objects. Secondly, once a quest or side quest is complete, he restores blackmap to areas already explored, so that lag is minimal. This is especially important in the quests by water bodies or in caves, because cliff textures and water typically cause lag. Thirdly, he judiciously uses teleports to reduce the functional size of the map once an area has been explored. This way players can have a big sprawling adventure on a big sprawling map, without having to walk all the way back to home base to upgrade in the shops. It also means some areas of the map can be physically cut off from others, to prevent sneak previews, but become accessible later on by teleport.

When I was making Peninsular Wars, I violated almost all of these principles and ran into problems. My starting map was 900x900. Then I added rivers, and inside the rivers I put trade routes. The landscape received georealistic treatment - every major mountain range, valley, plain, and seaside cliff in Spain and Portugal got transferred into my map. Lastly, the Peninsular Wars took place mostly in and around old Spanish and Portuguese cities. Cities with quaint, narrow, charming winding streets packed with houses, gardens, cathedrals, markets, banks, plazas, monuments, fortifications, and more fortifications. Some of which were on fire - big laggy smoky fires rich with animations and props.

Side quests abounded, and I did not know how to reset blackmap over the areas already secured. Worst of all, was the water. Not content to have a built up shoreline with jetties, forts, and harbour markets, I sculpted the undersea contours to create reefs and narrows, the Strait of Gibraltar, the sparkling azure beaches of the Algarve, the lighthouse and observatory at Sagres, and the Mediterranean seaport of Valencia. Even the wide estuary of the Guadalquivir, its trade route (!) and the Marismas got special attention and were loaded with eyecandy. All of these areas would see fighting - shipfighting, land forces, even a hot air balloon you buy at a shop for reconnaissance.

Bound. To. Fail. 6 months into the project, I couldn't even open the scenario file. AOE3 would simply crash to desktop.

So, pick and choose wisely: if you want a larger map with more overall adventures, pick a storyline and setting that takes place in the open countryside, or a fantasy realm with fewer structures or civilized, built-up areas; if you want a more contemporary story set in a more real-world setting, make a smaller map and focus your eyecandy efforts in those areas that actually need them.

@Gunner: Yes, I agree special attention is needed to hammer home the point of map planning and packaging/presentation.

-how much background story goes into the intro
-intro cinematics: toggle on/off, dialogue, character building, separate area or starting area?
-revealing information: general guidelines, hidden areas, flow of information, proximity/LOS, stealth
-revealing objectives: general guidelines, NPCs, order or priority of objectives and side objectives, what's the right number of side objectives to keep players focused but give them choices; Rewards for objectives completed
-in-play cinematics: General guidelines, timing issues, multiplayer issues, dialogue, in-situ or special areas to stage these
-Traffic in your map. Busy areas, side areas, hidden areas. Are all areas of your map put to some relevant use? Should already-revealed areas between objectives receive triggers to provide new content once in a while (i.e. respawning treasures, enemy units, sentries, new NPCs to interact with)? Mode of transportation. Influencing players to go in a particular direction: conflicting instructions from NPC, signals from terrain, deliberate LOS revealers, teasers, etc.
-Structure of a story. Is your storyline going to fit in a 600x600 map, or should you consider making a sequel? A campaign? Is your story open ended, such that replaying the scenario results in a slightly different experience each time? Does having played the prequel to your story RPG give a tactical advantage to the players?
-Building replay value into your scenario. Hidden objectives. Random triggers and randomization. Multiplayer character selection, balance, and fairness. QV triggers. Difficulty settings. Choices, plot arcs, and splitting the multiplayer "party" up. Supporting units. Online RPG: Dealing with attrition due to game length. Dealing with lag-out. Dealing with cheats/post-imperial. Can one single remaining player complete the scenario by himself, or is it impossible without teamwork? (Revisiting purchaseable supporting units)
-Computer allies and opponents. Supremacy elements to an otherwise SPC map. Mercenaries and rescues. Diplomacy settings. Token economy of your RPG: food for life, wood for ?, gold for buying anything you might need, including information. XP, Export, and timers as token economic forces. Kill counts vs. objectives:complete as a way of granting bonuses otherwise unavailable to players. Fixed force vs. colosseum-style RPG.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.

[This message has been edited by As_Saffah (edited 09-01-2009 @ 12:10 PM).]

posted 09-01-09 03:09 PM EDT (US)     4 / 16  
Thanks very much for the information about reducing lag. i was not exactly sure how much of an influence each one had on lag. This will come in very sueful in future.

I allways feel slightly bad replying to your posts saffah as my posts are of such lower quality.

Scenarios I have made
Single Player-: CAMPAIGN - Christmas - Forest River RPG - Total Freedom
MultiPlayer-: Castle Blood Automatic - Mafia Hitman - Warrior Defence
ESO = sandstorm....................................................................................."I won the bet on 1.04!"
posted 09-01-09 03:29 PM EDT (US)     5 / 16  
First I want to say that this is a pretty nice article. I also hope that it dont disappear after a few months like my guide . As I see you mainly fixed on objectives and story. In my opinion it is extremly good to present the rpg scenario with good music and audio chats (since you have this option in sp more as in mp). RPG is at the one hand the genre which costs the most time but on the other hand maybe the best thing you can create in AOEIII

As it was stated out by AS_Saffah I tried a RPG before with the size of 600x600 and it is just a pain to fill this map before creating triggers (map design i gave up at 55-60%) ;P. I also havent even used an 80 page notebook xD but I thought i created a nice outstanding scenario. (I also had a system with SAVE spots ... based on a pw system . But I might finish it sometime as a sp scenario hehe.)

@gunner: as long as ino AS_Saffah his posts where everytime longer as other ones.


ESO2 Name:Sir_ConstantinESO Name:Sir_Pacman
Trigger Freak and Modder for AOE3

SCP Editor Tools---my map pack---Some incomplete stuff
My trigger Pack

[This message has been edited by Mister SCP (edited 09-01-2009 @ 03:31 PM).]

posted 09-01-09 09:22 PM EDT (US)     6 / 16  
Not higher quality, just more longwinded-er, so my usual ignorance and redundancy is diluted by a lot of run-on sentences.

SCP maybe you should continue working on the map, farm out the parts you got stuck on or just don't have any interest in, and test it when we are online.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
posted 09-02-09 00:43 AM EDT (US)     7 / 16  
Thank you all for your comments.

As_Saffah,
I would love to test the scenarios you mentioned, but sadly, I only have vanilla and recently obtained TWC. So in saying this, I cannot judge on how others were able to manage multi-player. But in a way that helps because I’m not distracted in development.

Cooperative abilities hrm…Well to start, I would imagine there would be an enormous amount of trigger work. Which means you will need to simplify the upgrade triggers and reward system. I would imagine you could have the quests activated by any of the hero’s and give the reward to each. I would think you would also need to check for resigned/dead player or the rest of the trigger won’t fire? I would add boss areas, and deploy ‘minions’ depending on how many heroes are left. If there is only one remaining hero, then deploy no minions etc. Think ‘Diablo’. I mention this particular game because it’s simple, there are plenty of others, but Diablo is a basic RPG type.

For balance, I would probably stick with one unit type for the hero’s. Balance can be hard to achieve, but if you gauge it correctly you should be able to judge how the hero grows. Then set the AI accordingly. Ok, what I mean is. Say you have three quests, and each quest area is closed off until conditions are met. Make a note on level of each area, IE. Quest1 =Hero level1, quest2 =Hero level5, quest3 =Hero level10 then set the AI according to level. And I don’t mean game level, I mean upgrade level. We now have that set; you now must ‘push’ the player to open the areas through hints/objectives in consecutive order. Not that it would mater, but they will die if they are level 1 and end up in level 10 area, and this would need to be noted.

Then you will need to check with each AI upgrade whether a player has resigned/died and either fire the said trigger if 4 players are still playing, or deactivate trigger and fire a new army, IE. Instead of deploying 6 units in Quest2 area, you would deploy 4 units etc. Keep in mind strengths, and vulnerabilities.

I hoped I have helped and not confused you. I know what needs to be done, but I lack in editor knowledge to fully explain myself correctly.

Btw, Great description for the lag issues I agree fully to your statements.

gunner1,
I like about 600x600 map because I like to use a lot of props and eye candy. In my opinion, if the hero is walking from one end of the map to the next, it should at least hold some of their interest. Unlike skirmish type games where terrain should not be an issue since everything is so fast paced and all the effort you put into your terrain goes unnoticed for most part.

Just a note. Cave cliffs don’t add nearly as much lag as other cliffs. I believe it’s due to the fact that other types add embellishments and a mix of terrain, where as caves don’t, and have a smooth texture. I also found the cliffs ‘seem’ different to me when I use TWC editor. I’m not sure what it is, but it’s there. I can’t seem to manipulate them as well.

I have to agree, adding a presentation can help immensely. You could have the finest cinematic but without any of the basic RPG knowledge, you wouldn’t have a good RPG.
Game-play would include story, quests, AI, and rewards. So you need to have the basic knowledge in order for your scenario to run smoothly, with or without the ‘bells and whistles’. I could have elaborated more on each section, but then, I would have written a book. I decided to stick with basic information and in my opinion the most important to fulfilling the niche.

I too hope other designers can create more specific guides. Believe it or not, I spent most of my time reading in the past 6months, than actually designing. I have a lot of patience, but I can imagine how others may give up after a short time.

Mister SCP,
Yes, I believe quests/objectives and story is the main driving force in any RPG. That said, a scenario with the added music/voice would make for a great RPG. Like I had said above, I only wanted the basics covered. Again I agree, AOE3 editor is a wonderful tool for creating RPG’s and designers should be taking advantage of that fact, rather than only B&D types.

You should continue work on your RPG, and perhaps take As_Saffah’s advice and farm parts of it out. But this time use a note book =p

I do hope designers can take the time to elaborate more on the other aspects of RPG development – Cinematics, music, and voice/audio.

Damari

Edit: I want to add a few things. This is geared around As_Saffah’s question - cooperative abilities for multi-player scenarios. You will need to find a way to ‘push’ the hero’s away from their group.

Here’s an idea. Say they need to protect 2 villages for the course of the game. Trigger it so an army will deploy sending units to the said village every 15minutes(or whatever). Have a message appear – “We are under attack, help us!” Do this for each village a few minutes apart. Don’t let the players know which village and turn on the fog of war. Hopefully, the hero’s will be busy doing something across the map, which needs to be completed. They send one or two heroes to the village (might be the wrong one). If they do not get there in time, have it so, for each house is destroyed the house next to it is converted to the enemies, which spawn another enemy unit. If all buildings are destroyed have something drastic happen, like they lose the game. This is only an idea, perhaps you can work from it.


Also remember; that you need to build your scenario in a way so there is replay value, hence giving choices. IE – “Gee, next time I play, I’m going to take the left path.” You want players to question their decisions. Also you want the scenario to take the player hours to complete. After all you spent months on designing it. As_Saffah, you spent 6 months on your own. (Btw, it sounds absolutely beautiful). So for sake of argument, you get the scenario up and running. And a player complains it took a few hours to finish. How would that make you feel? I’m sure terrible. After all, 6months work should equal a few hours of game play. Players need to realize this as well, that RPG’s are not for everyone and time can be an issue.

I have added another link, I’m sure it will help. Obviously it was made for AOM but as we know the editor functions are pretty much the same. (Other than chat contains). Of course ignore the spells or anything not obtaining to AOE3. I only added it to give you the many possibilities for character development.

[This message has been edited by Damari (edited 09-02-2009 @ 04:19 AM).]

posted 09-02-09 10:21 AM EDT (US)     8 / 16  
Mèrs does interesting things with "spells" - the enemy boss takes control of your hero, your armor is stripped away, you get turned into a sheep, etc.

@Play duration: Of course the very best scenarios online take about 3-4 hours to finish with 4 players. Most online players have a short attention span, and can't sit and play something like that for much longer. It's best to aim for no more than 4 hours straight game time, even for single player RPG. This is because every time you want to save and quit, you lose any of your HC-card upgrades and XP. This is a sad consequence of ES not preserving the functionality of the Modify Protounit trigger. Once you've leveled up or bought several upgrades, you don't want to start over in a more difficult area of the adventure, wearing only your underwear, so to speak.

@Variety of experience: RPG objectives should not all be about fending off attacks. Some should be about avoiding the fighting. Some should be about sneaking around and successfully delivering a message or lighting a fire without getting caught. Some should be about helping a village construct a fort or castle to protect themselves - all can be done with triggers. Even just building a canoe to sail to an island to meet with a spy can be an objective that gives a reward - one that's directly relevant to the next objective.

@notebook: I found it easier to work directly on the computer. I have a laptop and just downloaded some maps of the Iberian peninsula showing where the major battles were. I made notes directly on the maps in MS Paint, drew on some arrows to show the general flow of action across the map. Where to put towns, which ones would have enemies inside, which ones would be friendly. Spacing out the resources and dividing off parts of the map as "side" areas helps ensure players keep moving forward to replenish, but also want to explore side areas.

I did eventually write some stuff down, mostly the storyline and history of the campaign. Like, what happens when you liberate Madrid? The risks, and the reward, should be bigger than that you might get for attacking a small garrison somewhere in the mountains. How to split up the party - a revolt in southern Spain needs the help of one hero, who will discover the lost Moorish capital. A regiment of Highlanders is trapped in a cave in Altamira, which draws the British player up to the coast where he discovers a shortcut to the Bay of Biscay. The portuguese player is attacked from the southwest, and discovers the ancient observatory of Henry the Navigator - and unlocks a dock and some whaling boats. Each area is off the beaten track, but gives a substantial boost to the whole team in reaching their objective. (I won't tell you what the explorers find in the ancient Roman amphitheatre - if I ever finish this scenario, it is the key to taking on Napoleon and pushing him out of Spain forever.)

The place where notebooks come in the handiest is in dialogue and intro cinematics. You're writing a story in script bullets, and putting those together with imagery.

Side adventures are there more to "pull" the heroes apart periodically, than to "Push" them apart. People don't like being pushed, but they do like to be drawn into something, and drawn out of their shells. Teasers are important, but so are events that help prepare players for being briefly separated from one another. If it's necessary that Player 3's hero proceed alone to the Iroquois village, then cinematics, rewards, and notices relevant to that player have to be unobtrusively available to all, to avoid OOS, and that player must eventually be able to leave and return to the main story arc (maybe you have to rescue him, but that's a different kind of adventure). You may have to keep other players out. Find a way to teleport the chosen player away from the main group, but unblock that area later so he may return freely by the same path, or call for help when needed.

@Combat: Teutonic Twit said something in the scenario contest thread I think needs repeating. People play RPGs for different reasons, but one major one is that they are sick of supremacy and rushing, build and destroy. Often a scenario will involve just that - you have a hero, you can buy a few other units, but you get attacked by a large force. With superior micro skills, you could probably sit right there and defend all day - and not die - but also never get to explore.

But most of us don't have superior micro skills. Most of us don't want to sit at home and defend against wave after wave of increasingly OP enemies. We want to fight, but we also want to explore and make friends and see the wonders of the world, and find fabulous treasures, and once in a while, have peace of mind. There's no point in making a 600 x 600 map and lavishing your eyecandy attention on it, only to have enemy armies spawn camp your starting locatoin and tear it all down.

This is a problem I've seen with other scenarios. You start small and then run into big trouble right away, and have to spend all your money on crappy mercenary army, and don't have any idea where to find more money. Because you can't leave town, you have to stick and defend. And then you die. You start over, try something else, that doesn't work, you die again. You've just spent your 3 hours of free time today, learning that the only way to survive is to stick in your starting location and buy mercenaries, fight, and continue fighting until you can sneak your guy out. Then your town is destroyed, but at least you survived long enough to leave town. And you're broke. And then the next town, and the next wave of enemies, etc. It gets boring. You feel left behind. It's a supremacy rush, masquerading as a RPG. I made one like this when I first started - it sucked. Balancing a fixed-force player army against a live enemy AI is HARD.

@Vanilla/TWC/TAD: There are not nearly enough scenarios made in Vanilla only. Part of this is because the players with enough experience in the Editor, to make convincing Scenarios, tend to be older and have already bought TWC and TAD. Another part is that the improved Reyk's Editor Mod is available for TAD and TWC, and is not retro compatible. That is, if I tried to open Vanilla Editor with the TAD Editor Mod installed, it would not work. I actually want to make some Vanilla scenarios for all the people around the world who still use only Vanilla. But the lack of editor features and backward compatibility is a problem I'm not ready or willing to spend too much time fixing.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.

[This message has been edited by As_Saffah (edited 09-02-2009 @ 10:47 AM).]

posted 09-02-09 01:01 PM EDT (US)     9 / 16  
I agree with a few hours to complete a scenario. But my question is, why was there never a work around with the save issue before? It sounds obvious that most designers knew about this. And it seems to me, that not much was done about it. A few years back there was a post made from someone from ES asking what are the most important changes to the game you would like to see. If I remember correctly, nothing was mentioned about the save issue. And if this is the case, more than likely ES had no reason to fix modify protounit, because designers found a way (more or less) to resolve the issue using HC cards. So from a business perspective, why waste money fixing something that doesn’t need to be fixed. I only ask because the save problem seems to be a big dark secret.

As I stated in the guide, RPG’s are not about killing. I think there is a misconception with players that all AOE3 scenarios are only about fighting. This is why I tried to express this point in the guide.

I use the notebook for story and dialog, but also for NPC development – Names, who they are, what role do they play. When and how I involve them in the story. Every town, village, NPC, army etc should have a name. The main city (if you have one) should have a purpose. Each quest should have a page written. I’ll jot down triggers and unit strengths/vulnerabilities, and compare stats. After I have laid the basic foundation for map work, I too will print that and use for a general guide for placement. But I will also make small diagrams of quest areas in my notebook. By the time I’ve done all of this, my notebook is nearly full. For most part, dialog alone takes quite a few pages.

”There's no point in making a 600 x 600 map and lavishing your eyecandy attention on it, only to have enemy armies spawn camp your starting locatoin and tear it all down.”

This is why I suggested using Gaia for main support. And I’ll use my last scenario as an example. For most part, you could probably make it through the game with only killing a handful of enemies (off the top of my head I can think of 15 enemies you need to battle). The army that enters the city is the ‘live AI’, I have no control on what they do. They won’t chase the hero. Nor will they attack buildings. You can stand just past the bridge, stick your tongue out and the AI will only stand there. So you can either avoid them or battle. I gave a speed boost to the hero as well, just in case he ran into trouble. Try it out. But I suggest you move the hero over the bridge past Letroy (the large flag pole), and stand near the fort wall. Change his stance and watch. For that matter, leave your computer and come back to it after and hour or so. You will notice not much has changed in that time. I spent nearly 80hours alone testing this AI and the AI I created.

Damari
posted 09-02-09 01:42 PM EDT (US)     10 / 16  
Oh I wasn't referring to your scenario in particular. There were some early ones (just after TWC came out) that were basically Stop the British on steroids. For the enemy, not for you - and teammates were often widely separated so they couldn't run to help you. I remember playing one through on cheats-allowed mode so you could make a huge army of jaegers and swiss pikes, and muscle your way out of town to see the rest of what amounted to a big empty map with scattered military buildings.

My first go at Save New Orleans was a disaster. You had to rescue all your wood from treasures. Just your explorer, no help. Then you had to use half of it to build a caravel, cross a river with towers shooting at you, then rescue some more wood, to build a TC. The minute the TC went up, you got attacked by a live AI which started out in Expert mode with a standard TC + vills + crates start. By the time you had found all your wood, the damn AI was in Fortress. People whined incessantly. I couldn't reliably survive. So it got fixed. Not dumbed down, just fixed so the pace of attacks matched the pace of your development.

I really don't know what happened to the Save game issue. I like the suggestion SCP made about a QV check or some other intermediate step, to guarantee you got the same bonuses back that you worked for before saving. One thing the game does well is remember unit placement. If for each level-up you also get Unit Create 1 house somewhere on the map, and then save, then when you resume the game, it only need count houses you control and grant you that many QV worth of HCXPIroquoisInfantryCombat or whatever.

Saving objectives completed would be a different story - IIRC the game doesn't track this very well either. I'd like more info on exactly what stats get saved in a Savegame, and what is forgotten.

Crunkatog on ESO
Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
Crunkatog on Steam.
posted 09-02-09 01:51 PM EDT (US)     11 / 16  
I agree with a few hours to complete a scenario. But my question is, why was there never a work around with the save issue before? It sounds obvious that most designers knew about this. And it seems to me, that not much was done about it. A few years back there was a post made from someone from ES asking what are the most important changes to the game you would like to see. If I remember correctly, nothing was mentioned about the save issue. And if this is the case, more than likely ES had no reason to fix modify protounit, because designers found a way (more or less) to resolve the issue using HC cards. So from a business perspective, why waste money fixing something that doesn’t need to be fixed. I only ask because the save problem seems to be a big dark secret.
I had never this problem just because i dont play sp that much. For MP I have done a work around with a pw system it saved the amoutn of gold, the lives and the position of the saving spot. so I solved this prblem for myself in multiplayer (you can find it in my TBE scenario which you cannot play since you have no TAD.)
As I stated in the guide, RPG’s are not about killing. I think there is a misconception with players that all AOE3 scenarios are only about fighting. This is why I tried to express this point in the guide.
I think in TAD it became better at least with sp scenarios. MP scenarios exist aswell but people which play scenarios play often only COLLOSEUM (best of it is still SC-P one ^^)
I use the notebook for story and dialog, but also for NPC development – Names, who they are, what role do they play. When and how I involve them in the story. Every town, village, NPC, army etc should have a name. The main city (if you have one) should have a purpose. Each quest should have a page written. I’ll jot down triggers and unit strengths/vulnerabilities, and compare stats. After I have laid the basic foundation for map work, I too will print that and use for a general guide for placement. But I will also make small diagrams of quest areas in my notebook. By the time I’ve done all of this, my notebook is nearly full. For most part, dialog alone takes quite a few pages.
I have an issue in the creative way. If I have a good idea it is as long in my head as I need it to implent for the scenarios. There are just a few things impossible for me since I know much better about triggers as the general designer so i can Triggering a map in a short time. Most time I need for get good ideas (the creative part) since my scenarios are unique, they don't go with the main strom. So i do it the opposite way of you.

Until I have a plan how to make the rest of the map AND the time I will work on my minigame Map with also triggers noone have used before


ESO2 Name:Sir_ConstantinESO Name:Sir_Pacman
Trigger Freak and Modder for AOE3

SCP Editor Tools---my map pack---Some incomplete stuff
My trigger Pack
posted 09-03-09 00:09 AM EDT (US)     12 / 16  
Yep, triggers are a big part of objectives. So are map items and areas

The way I usually set up an objective is like so:

MAIN OBJECTIVE 1
  • Side objective 1a
  • Side objective 1b
  • Side objective 1c
    MAIN OBJECTIVE 2
  • Side objective 2a
  • Side objective 2b
  • Side objective 2c
    ...


    Sometimes objectives or quests are "nested".

    MAIN OBJECTIVE 1
  • Side objective 1a
  • Side objective 1b
  • Side objective 1c
    MAIN OBJECTIVE 2
    ...

    You're on a quest to find a golden key, and along the way, an orphan asks you to help him find his long lost brother. You rescue the brother from pirates, bring him back to the village, and they join your quest to find the golden key.


    Sometimes objectives interlock.

    MAIN OBJECTIVE 1
  • Side objective 1a>
    MAIN OBJECTIVE 2
  • Side objective 2a
    >
  • Side objective 1b
    ...

    Example: Your party is fleeing burning Troy and your ship lands in Carthage. The NPC sovereign of Carthage demands a golden wedding ring. In return she will make you head of a very large army and navy. You set off in search of a dowry. You sail to Italy and found a colony but it is attacked by pirates. The leader of your colony says the pirates will sail away if their captain is killed. You fight the pirate captain, who has a golden earring. You chop off his ear, but he escapes. You hurry back to Carthage, give the wedding ring to the queen, become lord of the Carthage army and navy, and use it to destroy the pirates, saving the Roman colony.

    Each objective and side objective has 6 attributes.
  • Name
    this is so that you can write an Objective in the Objectives menu. This is also so that you can use triggers to grant resources, create effects, and mark objectives Completed in the Triggers menu.
  • Precedent
    How do the player heroes come to learn of the new quest? Informants, signs and symbols, teasers, even Objective:Reveal triggers may reveal the new objective. Once the objective is ready to be revealed, you can stick a brief cinematic here to introduce the background story or precedent for the objective. Examples: NPC encounters, finding new buildings or objects, coming in LOS of a town, nightfall.
  • Tasks
    Basically, what do players need to do to complete the objective. The ultimate goal. Examples: Escort White Buffalo back to Tintitonwan; build 5 towers before the French arrive; destroy all 4 pirate camps; the Ashikaga Maru must not sink.
  • Obstacles
    The nitty gritty details of what an Objective usually entails. Example. Objective 4 says "Build 5 towers before the French arrive." The obstacles could be low wood; French arrive early and you must fend them off as you continue building; or while building the last tower, your builders are within firing range of an enemy Fort. Other obstacles to be described: is the objective guarded? Are there patrols or garrisons in the way? Will the straightforward approach be too slow?
  • Difficulty
    How hard is it for the players at that particular time point. Easy objectives build confidence, but may not be very rewarding. Hard objectives may be skipped altogether at the beginning. If the objective is absolutely critical to continuing the scenario, then consider making it hard, but then offering substantial "assistance from a distance" at a crucial moment, such as reinforcements, a natural disaster that destroys part of the enemy, or a boost of resources.
  • Pay dirt
    What players get for completing the objective. Not just what happens (towers completed, spirit master safely delivered to city, pirates cleared) but any additional things that happen, either good or bad, and any actual resources or units they gain.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    An example:
    Objective 5: Liberate Madrid from the usurper Joseph Bonaparte.
    Precedent: Steady stream of attacks from French-controlled capital forbid your progress.
    What to do: Kill the garrison, destroy the stables and barracks, and cause Bonaparte to retreat.
    Difficulty: Hard as hell.
    Bounty:
  • During the fighting, when your troop numbers are low, each player gets a squad of Lancers and some Swiss Pikes. These appear close to the fighting and can be pressed into service to counter skirms and cuirs.
  • After you finish the objective, the (indestructible) factory, fort, church, arsenal, and 15 houses in Madrid change to player 1's ownership.
  • Each of the 3 human players gets 1000 XP and a level up for their hero.
  • The Objective is marked Complete.
  • Objective 6b (optional) is revealed.
  • A path blocker across the road to Zaragoza is removed, so your army can continue marching north.
  • French garrisons withdraw from Toledo, Talavera de la Reina, Alcalá de Henares, and León (making control of these areas much easier).

    Crunkatog on ESO
    Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
    Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
    schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
    Crunkatog on Steam.
  • posted 09-05-09 00:10 AM EDT (US)     13 / 16  
    First, thank you Damari for this thread, it helps bring focus on RPG games...

    Next, thank you As_Saffah for mentioning my earlier comments. I'd like to expand on that point a little bit. Yes, I think people who like to play RPGs don't care for (maybe tired of) immediately in your face game play. I used the comparison of chess to checkers playing to describe RPGs, but that may be a little too abstruse for some to understand. The comparison was meant to demonstrate the level of complexity in game play, but unfortunately both games are static in the sense them occur in a predetermined, similar play field, established centuries earlier, no variation allowed.

    I think a better illustration, of the way I see RPG play, would be to compare them to Sudoku or Word Puzzle Games. You aren't being timed or resource challenged. The author presents a challenge to the player with unknowns to be resolved. It's up to the challenger, maybe with a glass of wine and time, , to resolve.

    Don't need more "in your face", want some more slow down and "enjoy".

    PS As_Saffah "Save New Orleans" was not a disaster. It was a fun little scenario you had to work through the issues to win. Had you provided a "villager" treasure to rescue early on, wood could have been collected earlier, making it a little easier to complete.

    It's not about killing, as Damari said, it's game playing and having fun.

    [This message has been edited by Teutonic Twit (edited 09-05-2009 @ 03:58 AM).]

    posted 09-05-09 12:53 PM EDT (US)     14 / 16  
    I guess the most recent version of NO is better then. In the past I just had a large mass of barbary corsiars march into your town at some pre-determined time, and hack your guys to bits unless you had a sizable army.

    As for Gaia, I used Gaia as the neutral NPC for towns and such when I first made Pen Wars, but later when I tested it online, I noticed that Gaia had an unchangeable diplomacy stance as Enemy towards players. This is a peculiarity of online multiplayer scenarios that you don't see when you play SPC mode, or test the scenario in the Editor. So for stuff like multiplayer RPG I always use a neutral player slot. They are set to team 1 when you start the game online. Then blackmap is restored, so you can't skip ahead to see what lurks in the towns ahead. By then, diplomacy triggers have set that player to Neutral, so you don't have LOS anymore.

    I wish Mers would come back and share some of his techniques. The maturity level in this area has gone up over the last several months, and it would be a better place than it was when he last left us.

    Crunkatog on ESO
    Bart331 balance suggestion: aztec: remove civ
    Voltiguer: Ender, Sioux in 1.04 will be a top civ, no matter how many layers of Sioux goggles you put on
    schildpad on Elephants: ...their mansabdar unit sucks so hard it looks like a black hole
    Crunkatog on Steam.
    posted 09-19-09 11:34 AM EDT (US)     15 / 16  
    Cool nice guide I think I might try to make a RPG now !

    "It may be improbable but nothing is impossible"
    posted 10-12-09 05:53 PM EDT (US)     16 / 16  
    Damari.

    Shoot me an e-mail at mobiusdicknoris@gmail.com.

    Got a proposition for you regarding AoE3 design.

    (.|.)
    ).(
    ( v )
    \|/
    "Wait, why do genitals require marksmen?" Eternal War0
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