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Topic Subject: Dutch Aggressive Turtle
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posted 12-01-05 11:58 AM EDT (US)   
Originally posted on http://pcgamejunky.blogspot.com/

The Dutch are a great civ in the hands of skilled players. I've seen Dutch players use a wide variety of strats to get the job done but I like to turtle with the dutch.

Dutch are the best turtle civ in the game and actually makes this strat a viable one (before in most RTSs turtling was never a very effective strat except for stopping rushes but you'd lose so much momentum that even a good rusher could surpass you in resources/military and you would lose anyway). The only civs you'll have problems with is French, Russia, and Spain, and only if certain elemnets are used in correct ways.

French Heavy Cav is too effective against Dutch and it will be an uphill fight against a good Currisuer masser... The Currisuers are simply too powerful for Ruyters to handle unless you outnumber them 4:1, Currisuers also slaughter skirmishers like they weren't even on the field. French are the hardest to play against as Dutch (or just about any other civ)

Spain's Lancers make it extremely difficult for Dutch but not nearly as bad as Currisuers, skirmishers will die fast but no in the same volume as they would to Currisuers and ruyters can handle lancers pretty well, but if the spain player goes fast fortress and whips out the lancers before you get to age 3 expect some major losses.

Russia's Heavy cav make turtling a dangerous thing. The Oprichniks are cheap extremely mobile siege and will annihilate buildings so a turtler will just set himself up for a fast defeat by leaving all his buildings near each other :P

Now that you are aware of what will beat you, you can now learn the basics of an aggressive turtle.

I start out with 3 vils on crates and the rest on gold, once all my gold crates are collected I take 2 of the 3 vils and put them on the mine (some people like to have 5 on a mine but in all honesty 6 will allow you to queue vils faster and help you get your miners collecting other resources quicker, 5 vils you will have miners mining until you age, 6 you will have 30-50 seconds of free time to have some miners collecting other resources and there is hardly any risk of idle TC time) I leave the last one to collect the wood and food crates.

With the remaining 1 vil I send him to chase hunts closer to my TC while I send newly trained vils all to my hunts (it is very important to age times that your hunts are attacked in a way that they move closer to your TC, it can shave off as much as a minute off your aging time to have hunts closer to your TC).

Once I have 17 vils payed for (I also use the 3 vils card in age 1) I take off 3 of my miners to either hunt (if I fear a rush) or gather wood, once I have 800 food to age I take all but 7 of my food gathers and put them on wood. with my first 100 wood collected I build a market and research gang saws and great coat (just in case I am a little late aging great coat should be researched before I age in case raids come).

Right as I hit Colonial I send my 4 vils card and set them to gold. I should have enough wood to build a barracks, and very shortly after I'll have enough wood for my first bank by gathering the 500 wood from aging. It is very important to start building banks early with this build because you don't want to be cut off from other mines by "smart" players that think Dutch can't continue without mines (a horrible mistake that usually costs many "smart" players the game). Once the barracks is up you need to start training skirmishers right away, I send over my "Fencing school" card when I really think I need my skirms out extra fast or if I did something stupid like got a slow age time.

I like to build houses in an array order with banks and outposts to break up my enemy's ability to keep his troops in formation, you do this because it gives your small defensive force a longer life span due to the enemy not being able to focus fire on your skirmishers with all available forces, this build style also slows down melee forces by A LOT and enables you to easily pick them off.

All vils trained from colonial (after the initial 4 vils from your HC shipment) go to food and wood to keep producing banks, more on wood than food. The more you have on wood the better, sometimes I have 9 fooders, 18 wooders, and 7 miners which combined with the 4-6 banks I build in colonial gives me such a gold boom that I can buy resources easily to help train more units or build more buildings. Don't forget to research all wood gathering tech at the market as soon as you can, the extra wood will help you greatly in your adventure.

By about 8-10 minutes you should have about 10-20 skirmishers and spend no other resources unless you need to. If you need pikes to defend a cav onslaught then by all means spend it!

Once you have 10 skirmishers start hunting enemy vils. 10 skirms will kill a vil in one volley, you will easily kill 3-4 vills in a raid with skirmishers and if you are attacked with cav simply bump and run your ass back to your base. If you are raided don't hesitate to garrisson your vils, it's a lot worse on your economy if you lose vils than if you aren't collecting resources for a few seconds. Don't try to rescue your vils with a fighting force, don't leave them there to die either, call them to your TC or outpost (which reminds me you should ALWAYS build a new outpost anywhere you are resourcing! not doing so is stupid and noobish... there's nothing like losing 10 hunters to 5 cav raiders...)

You should start moving vils to mills as soon as hunts within a reasonable distance are gone, this ensures you aren't raided to death while hunting (though somethig I've been doing lately is setting traps where I have a vil go kill a few huntables and leave my army in that area to lure raiders into their deaths makes for fun strategy while booming 4tw.

Now you have a jumping economy, and enough resources to advance to age 3, use the faster age politician and while you're advancing you need to start a constant nonstop pumpage of skirmishers, you can literally have 100 skirmishers by 20 minutes and still hit age 4 by 25 minutes but instead shoot for having 50 skirmishers (or a mix of skrimishers and ruyters) by the time you hit age 3. This will allow you to take a major offensive because no one will have enough "decent" troops to stop your huge skirmisher force and since you only have to age for your skirmishers to upgrade to vets you have a huge battlefield advantage.

Things to remember in age 3! Build an aresenal ASAP and ship your advanced arsenal card for more skirmisher upgrades, combine this with as many skirmisher cards as possible and you have basically created an army of imperial skirmishers in fortress age.

Build your fort near your TC, a lot of people forward build their forts but unless you've already won the game a forward built fort is just a really pretty target for age 4 mortars, since you are booming to get to age 4 you will have the mortars to kill his fort fast and since your army is either attacking or at your base with your vils/fort there is usually no way that an enemy player can kill your fort in age 3 while you can get to age 4 train 5-10 mortars quickly and kill an enemy fort while you lure his army away to another part of the map by heavy raiding with either a large volume of cav or a mass of skirmishers!

Now the point to get to age 3 and have such a huge force is so you can quickly get up to age 4! You will have a good run in age 3 with your skirms but age 4 is nearly guaranteed victory if you get there soon enough! Once you hit age 4 you get a dicounted skirmisher upgrade (600wood 600gold) for gaurd skirmishers... It's pretty much GG then, you will have hugely powerful skirmishers with ruyters as support. Train 5 mortars and a couple culverins once you hit age 4, now you have the power to level armies and buildings with ease, send your factory cards asap and set one to food and one to coin so you have constant ability to train skimishers. 3 mills, 8 banks, 2 factories, and the rest of your vils on wood and you have basically an unraidable economy that is concentrated in one compact area. This allows to you focus on 2-3 places at most instead of worrying about your wooders being here, hunters being there, and miners way over there while your army is right over there... get the point

When you get old like me and lose some focus being about to focus on a few places instead of several is key to helping victory, it just so happens dutch plays perfectly into my low focus style of playing, I can spend less tie worrying about vils and more time with my army micro so I can make my better more expensive soldiers pay for themselves before the enemy can counter me.

Here are things to look for as Dutch,

Players will try to train more cav against you, if you micro well enough you won't have much problems against cav, just remember if you are being attacked by cav at your base run your skirmishers around your TC while having 10 vils garrissoned in your TC firing on the cav, it may slow you down a little but in the end you have all your skirmishers left and all your vils while they lost half or all their cav in a fruitless raid.

Crossbows are decent against skirmishers so be careful, if you are against higher number of xbows then run away to your base and start building a stable. Musketeers are fodder for skirmishers so don't worry about them, if they get in range of you then run your troops back and fire from distance, don't get into a knife fight when skirmishers have no knives

French vils will bounce your skirmisher's rounds off their thick hides so think about sending 3 hussars to raid french vils.

Don't forget to raid every game! if not you will fall behind a little, not much but any disadvantage for you is an advantage for them.

Try to make a huge cav raid in fotress age when you have enough resources to supply a cav force of about 15 Hussars, that will hurt an enemy economy badly.

Use Envoys! they don't cost pop and are cheap as crap! in age 3 their huge LOS and cheap cost will allow you to scout the enemy resource spots and allow you to plot your raid!

Just remember that you are in a shell but not invincible, if there is water near by make sure you have control of it (with your huge wood economy and your gold income you should be able to control the water with no problems at all) monitors = base killers and shell crackers! don't let them crack you!

A good turtle deck won't have many military unit shipments but the 3 hussars card is a must have in any deck! 3 hussars can raid for you or slaughter a dozen or so xbows.

Get as many skirmisher cards as possible and research any tech that will help make your skirmishers stronger, faster, cheaper, and train faster. Skirmishers are the life blood of the dutch, don't stop upgrading until your skirmishers can't be upgraded anymore, shoot for every new age asap and quickly get the barracks upgrades. This will make your already strong skirms MUCH better than your enemy's, and since you can outnumber his cav forces 3-1 in terms of cost and effectiveness you will be able to stop most cav forces (french cav just pwnz though... you need ruyters against french and you need a lot of ruyters...).

The whole point of this strat is to make your opponent think he is winning and thus make him play sloppier than normally, it's also designed to make your enemy take map control, you don't need map control as dutch, so allowing your enemy to have most of the map gives you much more room to raid him. Just don't let him wall you in!

Over all you will spend many fewer resources than your enemy will, you will be able to do more with your army because you will have any area you choose to attack while you know exactly where your enemy will be comeing from all the time. Being in one place means he can only attack one place... a lot easier to defend.

When going from age3-4 get the gold politician, and once you are in age 4 research merchantilism at the church and use your shipments on the factories. heavy cannon seems nice but having 2 factories UBER fast in age 4 without holding on to your cards in age 3 is a lot better

You don't want to camp for too long and you want to try and stay very aggressive always, keep raiding, keep sniping lone soldiers, keep his need to spend resources high while yours is low. If you have moderate micro you can have a 3:1 kill/loss ratio during most of the game, it won't be until you are stronest in age 3-4-5 that you will be able to really stick it to the man and have open battles, but until then defend your ass off and boom yourself stupid.

Dutch are a very versitile civ, but their best strategy is to stay in one place and attack with overwhelming powerful units when the time is right.


I tried to be as comprehensive as possible and it's a pretty damn long article so if you are having problems playing as dutch, even if you don't use my strategy you will find many interesting Dutch features and pros/cons in this article!

If you have questions ask, i did a lot of back and forth while writing it so I may have left something out that isn't explained enough or seems to be missing stuff if so let me know and I'll fix it add stuff and let you know the methods to my madness

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

[This message has been edited by TheGoodEvil (edited 12-01-2005 @ 02:55 PM).]

Replies:
posted 12-01-05 12:23 PM EDT (US)     1 / 93  
Very nice. You cite curiassers as a problem, but you can bump and run with ruyters and be moderately effective against them.

Of course one or two unit armies are always dangerous, the culverins you mention are a nice touch. I might consider giving this a try. I really like the dutch, but I am still searching for the best way for me to use them.


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
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posted 12-01-05 12:39 PM EDT (US)     2 / 93  
What's the general ratio of ruyterrs to skirms?

///scipio_africanus\\\
"Scipio rules. Nelson sucks." - Jax
"I have a shrine to Scipio in my closet."- Doitzel
"posting a link with no sort of comment or explanation is not something we readily condone in OD." - GillB
The Gamers' Manifesto|Welcome to HG!|The Sanatorium
Winner of the Order of Doitzel!
posted 12-01-05 01:35 PM EDT (US)     3 / 93  
depends on who I'm playing, vs french I have 2:1 ruyter/skirm ratio vs most other civs have 1:3 ruyter/skirm ratio.

It's not easy to bump and run curiassers, they are fast and relentless and ruyters are kinda weak in terms of dragoons. You need a lot of ruyters to take on a huge curiasser force and that causes pathing problems with your ruyters.

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

posted 12-01-05 01:50 PM EDT (US)     4 / 93  
Just got pwned by a german. The uhlans didn't stop flooding in, keeping my vills pent up and destroying all the skirms I could build while his natives took down my TC.

///scipio_africanus\\\
"Scipio rules. Nelson sucks." - Jax
"I have a shrine to Scipio in my closet."- Doitzel
"posting a link with no sort of comment or explanation is not something we readily condone in OD." - GillB
The Gamers' Manifesto|Welcome to HG!|The Sanatorium
Winner of the Order of Doitzel!
posted 12-01-05 02:12 PM EDT (US)     5 / 93  
Do you have the replay?

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

posted 12-01-05 02:52 PM EDT (US)     6 / 93  
TGE, could you do me a huge favour and post up the strat in the thread topic please? It would let me put it up in the directory

Very nice write up btw


★★★★★
posted 12-01-05 03:02 PM EDT (US)     7 / 93  
You know what Scipio I forgot to add that if you need to make pikes I could have sworn I added that but yeah against germany you need at least 5 early pikes, maybe 10-15 by 7 minutes. I could have sworn I put "if needed train pikes to defend agaonst cav raids" I guess I didn't :s

It's simple as hell to train pikes as dutch with this build because you have most vils on food/wood.

I'll add that in a bit I have to go for a bit.

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

posted 12-01-05 03:40 PM EDT (US)     8 / 93  
TGE,

I tend to group my banks in the back to protect them, and line my houses up as a psuedo-wall (despite the fact that units can still walk between them). I can, however, see the benefits of staggering them around to break up enemy troop movement, but I can't get my mind around the visual. Would you drop a screenshot of a typical colony layout for us?

Thanks.

posted 12-01-05 04:22 PM EDT (US)     9 / 93  
Crazy, my dutch strat is all a bout map control and constant pressure. Not taking advantage of skirms early is a big mistake. I would suggest sending 8 pikes and 15 skirms to an enemies base who is booming.

The cavalry raid part is true tho. It is a strategy I have forgotten about The always pwn.

Only prob I have with the dutch is when someone masses xbows and hussars early. What do you do in this situation? Sometimes I tower, send the 8 pike card and build a small army of skirms. I hate it tho, with the french they will STILL outboom you

posted 12-01-05 04:28 PM EDT (US)     10 / 93  
Yeah I can't seem to beat french players that are equal skill I can barely keep up with them and once they get to age 3 those damn gay heavy cav just run my units into the dirt

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

posted 12-01-05 05:28 PM EDT (US)     11 / 93  
What times do you age up as TGE? I ask this because I've been having a huge success againstDutch using the "Dumbest Strategy Ever" strategy that was posted earlier.

The one where you build no villies and age up in under 3 mins ship in pikes and rodeleros and start taking down houses at the 4 minute mark. I've had quite a few sub minute games and even 1 or 2 subs 5 minute games against Dutch doing this. I've been called lame, but what can i say... i hate age2 skirms!

posted 12-01-05 10:09 PM EDT (US)     12 / 93  
HAHA! I did have if you need to train pikes you should! I went looking harder for it and found it!

Quote:

By about 8-10 minutes you should have about 10-20 skirmishers and spend no other resources unless you need to. If you need pikes to defend a cav onslaught then by all means spend it!

yeah Germany is usually a cav civ so expect to use more pikes against them, as well as the french.

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

posted 12-01-05 10:48 PM EDT (US)     13 / 93  

Quote:

Dutch are a very versitile civ, but their best strategy is to stay in one place and attack with overwhelming powerful units when the time is right.

^^^I do that all the time. I love using my banks to mass falconets, especially against infantry heavy civs or players. 10 falconets in age 3 can wreak havok like none other on groups of ranged infantry.

One thing you don't have that I tend to use are halbreds. I find them to be very versitile, obviously agianst cavlery but also help in destroying artillery and buildings. Also, if they can get to ranged infantry without being bumped and run on, they helped in getting ranged infantry into melee mode and can whipe out groups of opposing light infantry while ur skirms fire from a distance.


Great guide with lots of juicy info.

[This message has been edited by Habin8er (edited 12-01-2005 @ 10:53 PM).]

posted 12-01-05 11:16 PM EDT (US)     14 / 93  
Ceres, I should have enough coin and food to research minutemen and garrsion some vils to finish the job.

TGE


TGE's RTS Blog, news, thoughts, and advice on RTS gaming

Able Company (my job)

"I've kicked more ass on accident than most people have on purpose"

posted 12-02-05 05:34 AM EDT (US)     15 / 93  
@TGE,

Have a "Against French" deck is nice i.e.have one or two anti-cavalry merc in the deck will help dealing with french,13 swiss pikes(or landies) will kill a not-too-massive horse army(likely around a douzen,in early-middle fortress) with ease,easier if you have some ruyters as well(or black riders).1-2k gold is very affordable for the dutch...Of course,if the game last too long when they can afford endless mass Cuirassier,then...

posted 12-02-05 07:25 AM EDT (US)     16 / 93  

Quote:

Do you have the replay?

Yeah, here.

I probably made loads of mistakes, though.


///scipio_africanus\\\
"Scipio rules. Nelson sucks." - Jax
"I have a shrine to Scipio in my closet."- Doitzel
"posting a link with no sort of comment or explanation is not something we readily condone in OD." - GillB
The Gamers' Manifesto|Welcome to HG!|The Sanatorium
Winner of the Order of Doitzel!
posted 12-02-05 08:25 AM EDT (US)     17 / 93  
I think an effectivy strat like this can be done w/ any civilization.

But I absolutely agree with this strat, I rarely rush anymore, its mostly fast t3s with merc/curriaser/skirm for me with turtling.

It is the best strategy in IMHO.

posted 12-02-05 09:57 AM EDT (US)     18 / 93  
I tried this strat last night and I didnt lose a game. I really like raiding with the skirms it works much better then i thought it would. I was getting the 3 hussar card with 5+ skirms and destroying vills even small armies. I didnt get rushed at all last night though im wondering how i will fair. My age times are a little slow as Im stillg etting accustomed to the Dutch. Great guide though TGE many thanks.

Alcohol, the cause and solution to all of lifes problems

Homer J

posted 12-02-05 12:37 PM EDT (US)     19 / 93  
@ scipio

I haven't figured out how to quote on this board yet.

Anyhow, I think you needed to make your base a wee bit bigger. For example, one of your towers should have been on the far side of that gold mine you were mining. And put more troops around it. (of course you prolly realize the troop part already)

Basically with a semi turtle strategy like you were doing you need to have your villies behind the towers. If you look at your replay, any direction your opponent came from the first thing he would run into is your villies. You need to set up your base to make it the last thing he gets to.

Towers out beyond gold mines and mills

Troops behind towers

Villies behind troops.

As the game goes on keep making towers throughout your base. You can have a max of 7 I think. I take the 500 wood politician, and take the 700 wood card in age 2 to help build these quickly

This at least makes him have to run a bit of a gaunlet to get to your villies.

Just my 2 cents. Happy playing

posted 12-02-05 01:45 PM EDT (US)     20 / 93  
Thanks. I realised that myself when he killed a lot of my goldies, although I don't actually remember putting up that tower there - I'm sure I did actually plan to put it vaguely near the gold

///scipio_africanus\\\
"Scipio rules. Nelson sucks." - Jax
"I have a shrine to Scipio in my closet."- Doitzel
"posting a link with no sort of comment or explanation is not something we readily condone in OD." - GillB
The Gamers' Manifesto|Welcome to HG!|The Sanatorium
Winner of the Order of Doitzel!
posted 12-02-05 06:47 PM EDT (US)     21 / 93  
*bookmarked* - when I try Dutch

I really hate the Dutch hit and runners. I really do...
These level 2 no card skirmershers are what give people so many fits and I think the major reason that ES thought that Dutch might be too overpowered pre-release.

  • I think you really need to scout well to do well with this and vice versa. If I pull the common tactic of gathering some Hussars and I position them between you and your base, I think you will lose massive momentum. And this is really a strat that depends on "mass"...

  • Excellent advice for all civs.

  • I really like the idea of Dutch fielding a massive army with pop saving banks and factories to boot...

  • Do you ever have a problem (ever lost) with getting cracked like that? I'm always paranoid of that but it has never happened.

  • You strat is very vulnerable to artillery, I'm suprised you mention just 2 culverins, with you not making heavy cannons to boot. You must really mass early a/o micro your ruyters - with your preference to army micro (I share the same penchant)

  • related to above, I do see big[biggest] probelms using this strat against Russians as you mentioned. The other thing is that the large majority of expert+ players such as yourself seem to using French and Spain more and more now adays... Since I think French will be nerfed, I think this needs some sub-strat on dealing with Spain as I don't see them changing. tbh, I "think" if one were just a little more aggressive[raiding] with this "turtle" one could handle French alright with this. If you found away to incorporate an anti-spain bit I would probably switch over to Dutch ASAP!

  • side note - Why don't Dutch(talk about) do more TC spamming?

    Overall, I like it a lot. I like the little things like your building array & raider luring hehe. Killing raiders early can really hurt your opponent. Although this adds new micro to be done well I would think. I need to check out how useful these envoys really are.


    Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.
  • posted 12-02-05 11:56 PM EDT (US)     22 / 93  
    By the time he can mass cuiras you will probably be in Industrial, where you can upgrade the Ruyters, and you can also get the arsenal upgrades which improve them significantly.

    If he masses cuiras and you have a good number of halbs as a meat shield it becomes cake. But Dutch vs. French will most likely go to the French player if of equal skill. I won't even play Frenchies with my Dutch city, I just use my French city and rush them to death.

    If you get the second TC in Fort you can hit the pop cap and still get to Industrial by 20 minutes. I played a game just a minute ago against another Dutch and I had a pop of 238 (with several merc cards) by 22 minutes (after heavy fighting and losing many units).

    Edit: Here is a game vs. Ottos. Although I didn't hit pop cap (game only lasted 25 minutes) this gives you an idea of how quickly you can produce a huge army as dutch, and shows some of the turtling strats I stole from Ceres. I will try and record one where I actually hit pop cap in under 25.


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    [This message has been edited by lordvasa (edited 12-03-2005 @ 01:23 AM).]

    posted 12-03-05 11:54 AM EDT (US)     23 / 93  
    lordvasaa, you're missing a link to the rec game

    Great strat, it's inspired me to try out dutch. What deck do you use btw?

    posted 12-03-05 03:10 PM EDT (US)     24 / 93  
    The best thing you can do vs a dutch is a fast fortress.

    Usually Ifind them defensive early game, going for more banks and better economy.

    And when you hit fortress, those curr/lancers/veteran skrims (with shipments of them) will cause havoc on those skirms.

    posted 12-04-05 09:53 AM EDT (US)     25 / 93  
    Once you get away from the idea that 'skirmishers are the lifeblood of the dutch', you'll have a much easier time when your opponent throws heavy cav at you. I dont think you even mentioned halbs once, which i would choose over a skirmisher anyday. Skirms are amazing in colonial, but there are much more versatile options in fortress and beyond. Also, 'fencing school' is a waste of a card, there are much better choices.
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