Actually I think this community understands the power of the dutch fairly well. Our own The Good and Evil has published a very nice guide to the Dutch as well.

Regardless, I read your guide and it looks nice. You should consider hanging around here more than at age community. It is a total noob fest over there, I can't take it. AOKH's Stevay (SWP) would have a field day there.

i know but those noobs need help (and love) too
but yeah ill stick around.

Stormy

Cool strategy.
Can we play online sometime together? I'm just starting to use the Dutch and I want to know more about them.

I'll add you to my eso list, and if you want you can add me: _Fallen_Angel_

sure just msg me

I play dutch preety much all the time and the fact that you only hav 3 people on coin while ageing up seems a real flaw to this strat.
I usually have 10-12 people on coin and 4-5 on food. You get 500 wood plus 700 wood shipment which is more than enough for banks and barracks and houses which is something you seemed to miss out in your strat.

My point is that when i age up and cue up say 3 villies and 10 skirms my coin is preety much gone so i would like to know how you have enough coin to field an army and villies? If you are relying on your banks to provide the gold then you will be in trouble with rushers i feel.

I usually rely on wood shipments until late colonial early fortress and i havent had many problems in fielding a decent army to raid and defend myself.

Ok jeffrey im gonna try to explain why i do it this way. First of all i dont like to use the 700 wood shipment unless nessesary. 3 (sometimes 4) will be enough to build a few villager once you hit colonial, but you should also bring the first bank up early which gives you another 4 "villies" on gold, so its a total of 7-8 villies on gold which is more then enough for building villager or building some skirms if nessesary. Also they cant prevent the bank from producing coin even when rushing(banks have alot HP) AND you dont rely on gold mines outside of your base as much because yours will last very long. Oh and with this combination i can also build pikeman to prevent a hussar rush and I'am able to play a card ( possibly the two tower card ) to beat a rush.
Why would you always build skirmishers?
( Versus an ottoman i would suggest using the 200 gold + outpost politician anyway )

To sum it up a little:
1.Banks are not raidable (are even good for walling)
2.You save a card. ( you could just play the 700 gold one if you scout a rush aswell, no need to have to much gold if you wont be rushed)
= You are more flexible and responisiv.

I hope you got my points, if not keep asking ^^

Stormy

relying on resource shipments creates the foundation for a weak economy. I usually only have 3 vils on a mine while aging too. then instead of a wood card I send 4 vils to create a solid foundation to build my economy on. build banks for faster shipments, and voila, you have a booming Dutch economy.

TGE

Dutch are actually over powered since they actually have a chance of stopping any using skirmishers. IF you put in the fact that they can build 8 banks and only use 50 villagers and the rest goes to military, lets just say if you dont press hard enough in age 2 which most people cant against a good dutch player you have already lost.

I totally disagree with not taking the wood shipments. For other civs with UP mil in Colonial and a bunch of colonial mili cards and upgrades yes, resource cards are a waste. For the Dutch, who don't benefit as much as the other civs from Furrier/Spice Trade/etc. (you could argue for the need to use ironmonger or the other gold cards, I never run out of gold and I never use these cards, so I don't find them that necessary) because you get substantially less vills, and who also don't get many hot mili card choices in colonial, wood cards will allow you to focus your econ on food and gold for substantially longer than any other civ can. I age up with the Wood Politican, get my first shipment as 700 wood, and voila...I can build 2 banks, a barracks, and enough houses to last me until Fort. I get the 4 vill card as my next card after that and boom, my econ is on at 6:00 and I can proceed to either heavily raid with skirms and continually pump vills or fast fortress, take the second TC and hit vill limit by 10:00 or 11:00.

If you can beat a rush with 2 towers it isn't a rush. He sent 2 uhlans in and they died. 8 pikes will take down 2 towers very quickly, and without the foundation on gold through the age-up because you have so few mining, you would never be able to make enough skirms to counter a real rush, and your econ will still be on hold while those villies are garrisoned= he wins. Wasting a card on 2 outposts is worse than the 700 wood card, because you just got 500 free wood except you can't spend it on anything useful. Outposts are for map control...they aren't going to prevent a rush anymore than Strelets can kill Cuirassiers.

An advantage of not taking the 4 settler card right away is that you can have 54 vills (58 vills if you are lvl 40+ and get the politician for Industrial that sends 4 settlers and ruyters) by waiting until you hit pop limit and then taking the card.

[This message has been edited by lordvasa (edited 12-04-2005 @ 10:36 AM).]

Taking the 700 wood card might be better.

Dutch is slightly behind of most of the others in the beginning,they have to mine gold.which is slower than food.So eco wise,the ideal way is to use as fewer peons on wood as possible(none the best)during transition and the beginning of colonial,to compensate.The ideal way is to get the banks up as soon as possible without spending villager seconds on slower resources(read wood),and have some tactic flexibility.with 10+ on food and 1200 wood shipments,you can chose fast bank boom or tower or stable,etc.I used to think 4 peons was always the best 1st conlonial card to play for every civ,but for dutch that's different,700 wood =2 banks = 8 villager,no other civ can ship in 12 villagers with 2 cards(suppose you ship the 4 peon card as the 2nd),and they can add at least "8 peons" without playing any other card in colonial,that's why Dutch has such a powerful conlonial-early fortress.

The only situation i can think of not favouring shiping 700 wood is,you can't find a nearby or easily protected second patch of hunting,in that case I'll consider other build(i.e.choping much earlier and get the techs to boost woodcutting),or else I won't have enough wood to mill when hunt running out.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-04-2005 @ 12:06 PM).]

Please let me point out that that was only an EXAMPLE of a build order, it doesnt mean i play every game like this.

@thegoodevil I use 4 villies on gold at times aswell, and if there is no rush ahead ill sent the 4 villagers.

I used to take the crates aswell but as its only a short boost you should just take it if nessesary. I always try to play cards that give me more advantage over time, like the bank cards, factories, advanced arsenal, religious freedom etc.

@Flyboyzz2000k i wouldnt say op, but they are definitly not as bad as people think they are. And no, skirmishers wont stop a native rush on great plains :-P

@lordvasa ironmonger and cards alike arent really worth it.
If you calculate how many villager you would need on one resource to make this card more effectiv then the 3,4 and sometimes the 2 settlers, it will be pretty obvious. So unless you concentrate on one resource dont use them.
Well anyway i used to play it that way but i had one problem, once i went to fortress i couldnt build a attilery, arsenal, church,stable and i couldnt pump out any units as fast, that is because the wood eco is to weak, and quickly switching it wont give you much resources. Also Wood is the most secure resource, its always close by and saver to get then either gold or food.
And NO the 2 tower card are not 500 wood, you have to also calculate the time the villager need to get the wood crates, and the time they need to build the tower up, the walking... it sums up pretty good. And believe me 3towers and a tc are hard to rush.

@Plebus The dutch are not really that much behind since they start with 7 villager, and please dont calculate only the wood cost of a bank. For building 2 banks you need 2 700 crates, not only one. So your point that you get 12 villager with two cards is not right, its 8 villagers which isnt all that great . But i agree with the wood nearby thingy.

Stormy

Quote:

Mills? Plantations? Banks? How are they less safe than wondering around looking for wood?

Dutch does,as I said,"slightly" behind in the first 5 minutes,approximately 5% or so,since gold is 25% slower than pure hunting.They merely catch up on "resource gathered",by the time when first(or two) bank is up,I guess.

700 wood = 2 banks,means if you assign most of the 1st age villagers on food and don't spent on upgrades(market),they almost equal to 2 banks,as you can pay that 700 food at anytime(except you want lots of hussars immediately,which is by any means quite unneccessary,and impossible if you only have a few on food during transition).Actually,the 700 wood card and go heavy on food before colonial gives you the flexibility of chosing any stategy,to the varying situations at the 5-6 minutes mark,which is the most dangerous time for the Dutch.

Switching to wood could be difficult when you want a really fast fortress,but Dutch don't need to do so unless your opponent are doing a FF.Dutch benifit most if both side decided to stay in colonial foever

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-04-2005 @ 03:14 PM).]

My statement was in regards to the beginning of the game. Mills and plantations deliver food/gold slowly, and you need wood to build them, but you have to build a few later on which isnt that much of a deal since you have alot of wood workers.
@ Plebus, im trying to eliminate the slower gold gathering rate by building banks. And you still need 1400 resources for building two banks, if you get the food you wont be getting some other resources therefore it is 1400 even if you only need 700 wood.

Stormy, I said Ironmonger was useless, just that I could see how some could argue for it's usefulness.
Also, building banks fails to eliminate the slower gold gathering rate because banks gather at the rate of 4 unupgraded vills, and don't get any faster until Industrial and lvl 25+ when you get Tulip Spec. Putting 11 miners on gold with even just the first market upgrade is < 3 banks. Since it is very, very doubtful you will get 3 banks in colonial unless you stay in it for a long period and don't get attacked, putting vills on gold is still more efficient early on than trying to put a million on wood and do an early bank boom. I find it much more effective to get 4 or 5 banks at the same time, during early Fort. Like you said yourself, during late game you don't need much wood. Well, during early game you don't need that much either. It's much more effective to have your vills gathering something you can use towards mili than gathering something that takes forever and has no military usefulness.

You still have to put vills on wood, don't get me wrong...I usually will send all of my colonial vills to wood until I have quite a few on it and then switch to what I need...the 700 wood just gives you a very quick boost when you need it most (when your few vills could be better used on food or gold which you need to defend yourself effectively). I power gather enough wood to build 2 houses during the age up, and a quarter of the way through I switch 6 to food and 11 to gold. By the time I hit Colonial at 4:30, I have enough food to build a bank or two and enough food and gold to start queing skirms immediately. Everyone expects the Dutch to either turtle or try to boom, and taking out their unprotected hunting vills at circa 6:00 is priceless. The beauty of it is you can pump 15 or so skirms AND still Fortress before 8:00 if you manage your economy correctly. I usually like to hold off on hitting Fort until after my enemy does, though, especially if I have been pressuring him the whole game. This way you have the gold needed to keep building vills and produce 5 or more falconets, while your econ is still far, far superior. A German player last night tried to FF on me and do a merc rush, and to his surprise 40 skirms and 10 falconets will stop an army of landsknechts and jaegers dead in it's tracks. Get the second TC card and hit vill limit ASAP, build whatever banks you have left, and it's GG unless you totally suck.

I never have problems getting the Church Upgrade card or Amsterdam and Rotterdam, just build TPs. In fact, I usually get the shipments right when I need them. Just get the church card first, and Rotterdam and Amsterdam last. This way you get 2 banks with one shipment, and by the time you are really pressed for gold you'll have another shipment available.

[This message has been edited by lordvasa (edited 12-04-2005 @ 10:05 PM).]

Well i guess if it workes for you its fine , but i never had a problem using my strat but you might want to rethink two points you made.

1. its very dangerous to depend your card flow on trading posts because you wont be able to protect them, and oh well the cost wood...

2. I WOULD NOT get the church upgrade to early and there are two reasons for that. First you need to build a church to early which doesnt hold any other upgrades in colonial age. Second it slows your skirmishers down and therefore makes hit and run ALOT more difficult.

I can just give you that advice
Stormy

There has been some debate about Ironmonger, I got it, used it, and found it to be useless, mainly because I like to have two Banks up before 8 minutes, three or four if gold is far away, so I have very few villagers that actually take advantage of it for very long.

I haven't tried using ressource cards, I side with TGE, I prefer the 4 vils.

As for vils during transition, I usually put 6/7 on gold, 4 on food and 4 on wood. Hitting Colonial with about 7-8 villagers queued and enough wood to throw up a House, then using the 500 wood to throw up a barracks, a Market and another house. Might fiddle with that.

As for the Church card, I haven't used it in online play, but I think that it is best used after the other two, so that your economy is already set and can only get better to compensate for the lower speed (and as a result higher casualties) of the Skirms. Also, if you get the Advanced Arsenal card, that can be alleveated for Art and Inf and only your Ruyters will suffer. In addition, I don't need the Church, which means I can use that 250 wood somewhere else more useful in the early game.

I get the Church card in Fortress, and I have no problem defending TPs. Thanks. A 10% decrease in speed has no noticeable effect on my hit and run, perhaps you should work on your micro?

edit: Another point on TPs, if you don't get the ones AT LEAST near your TC the enemy will get all of them and get shipments much, much faster than you. What will you do if he spams ATPs on every post?

Also, I would rather have an enemy attack my TP, which is generally far from my base, than my base. This gives me enough time to either build counters to what he has or move my existing army to a point where his can be intercepted.

You are also seemingly oblivious to the fact that TPs are an excellent scout. You can watch the Wagon/Train as it moves up the map and often times scout enemy vills that he has left carelessly close or possibly see his forward base go up.

In many games I will take the enemy's nearest TP as one of the first things I do in Colonial. He will more often than not spend the time he would normally spend rushing me trying to take down my post, which gives me ample time to pump skirms and FF, unmolested.

[This message has been edited by lordvasa (edited 12-04-2005 @ 11:28 PM).]

Never mind, I'm probably replying to a post that wasn't targeted at me.

[This message has been edited by Insane Sheep (edited 12-04-2005 @ 11:44 PM).]

"As for the Church card, I haven't used it in online play, but I think that it is best used after the other two, so that your economy is already set and can only get better to compensate for the lower speed (and as a result higher casualties) of the Skirms. Also, if you get the Advanced Arsenal card, that can be alleveated for Art and Inf and only your Ruyters will suffer. In addition, I don't need the Church, which means I can use that 250 wood somewhere else more useful in the early game."

couldnt have said it any better

250wood makes a very expensiv scout and someone has to upgrade the trade route first. A good player wont really bother with the trading posts and just send a couple of units. If the trading post is nearby (Sonara, Yukon) you might build one yes, but there is no point in building a trading post at some random location you cannot protect to well. But i guess you play diffrently anyway so i wouldnt want to judge it

well 10% less movement means that the skirmishers hit and run is harder to do: Normal Inf speed 4, Skirmisher speed 5, but with 10% less its 4,5. thats still faster, but the diffrence is HALF of what it used to be. Now if you have any lag in the game its even worse because the reaction time will probably kill that speed advantage.

About the 700 wood card,you can take it as if you have 16 extra villagers choping wood for 1 minute and half(1 crate collector =16 woodiess,and 700 needs 88 seconds),that almost equal to the effect of you assign all the 1st age villagers choping wood during the transition time!Besides,by sending the wood card first,you can delay the 2nd house a bit,giving time to collect enough wood from polititian crates(suppose your starting resource is 300G/100W/100F,and no treasure wood,no wood choping before 2nd age...).

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 12-05-2005 @ 00:52 AM).]

I dont' know who gets the card besides Dutch, but they get a Age 1 card that "Makes Tradeposts Cheaper, Stronger, and they gain an Attack"

I tried the card out. It drops cost to 125 Wood. I think it about doubles the tradepost HP, and the "attack" seems to be about equivelent or less than a towncenter or outpost. If the enemy sends 5 troops or less at the tradepost, the tradepost will win. Its especially effective against calvary, who do siege slow and take ranged damage fast. Another nice feature is the pot shot that the trade posts will take at passing troops sometimes kill one in a group, but more importantly they set off the "battle" flare on the map alerting you to incomming enemies.

Its a nice card, especially if your going to heavy native. I haven't quite found a way to work it in yet though in my build order. There's always something I'd like more. But if your TP heavy, and the route goes from one base to the other, it's valuable.

That said I don't see how you can afford 10 Skirms and continued Vil production going into Colonial. 10 Skirms = 650 Gold = about 9 vils on gold during age up. How you can afford that, plus Vils, plus upgrades I don't get.

[This message has been edited by Diceclock (edited 12-05-2005 @ 12:16 PM).]

Every civ gains that card, Advanced Trading Post (ATP) with level 25 on the bottom of the native tree, it sounds great and is certainly not bad for some civs (spanish etc.) but its not so great for the dutch. You already have to play alot of cards to get the eco up, survive the rush etc. And yeah the attack is nice, but unless they are build on a native camp the enemy wont bother. remember that you could also play the 700 wood crate. I doubt any dutch player really uses that card other then on great plains, but then again id rather play the native treaties

"Also, building banks fails to eliminate the slower gold gathering rate because banks gather at the rate of 4 unupgraded vills, and don't get any faster until Industrial and lvl 25+ when you get Tulip Spec."

Except building banks + keeping your TC building villies is an econ accelerator, because you're adding village-second production above just building villies at your TC.

exactly Mr.Pain!

Having 2 forms of vil production is a powerful tool in AoE3. Now if you have to pay extra for the second vil type you probably will if you can afford it.

A crucial aspect about building early banks is you get WAY faster HC shipments which help the banks pay for themselves. without the extra shipments dutch is a moderate civ but with banks and faster shipments dutch is a powerhouse.

TGE