i didnt read it yet but uber graphics

I must say that this site has excellent strategies, this site has helped me so much for improving my game. This strat is looks like fun to try. I would be happy to be in fortress age with any civilization but what I like about Ottomans best is that the peasants come out automatically. If I can do this in time, I think I can beat much more people othen otherwise. Having the peasants coming out for free out of many towncenters will allow my to focus on the funner and HARDER battles I have not read this whole yet but I will as I remember when I tried hippo's last Ottoman strat the times were quite accurate so I have faith in this.

I think my problem will be knowing which opponents are going to rush me and which aren't. I have pretty muchnoticed that the British and Portugese almost always leave me alone, but how do you guys know when the other guy is going to not rush you??? Thanks. gj

http://agesanctuary.com/index.php?portal=AOE3&fview=2&showtopic=44366?entry465380

The ottoman fast castled and merc rushed the german. Very effectively done.

Good one, I knew it was possible, I have just never sat down and tried it - its just so easy to rush with them. I think a lot of normal Ottoman players won't know how to handle themselves hehe. Defense? they will be so confused. Defintely not for the normal lamers. But for Otto haters like me, it looks good to try and will look for it from my opponents more. I personally would try to get the falconets with abus and natives or some other meatshield. Also this looks good for Spahi. BTW what is your record like right now for Ottomans?

@ Jeffrey - just looked at the game. It seems totally different, but then agsin it sync errors out after 6 or 7 mins, but Mozart doesn't seem to be going for a fast fotress or at least the 2 ro 3 TC approach at all. Perhaps he did later in the game? But in no way a sub 7 min FF and if Mozart popped out TC's later in the game and when... well it errors out so who knows :/ Probably th new patch :/ Those two players are incredible players. Starsky used to spank me (really everyone) in AoM, its nice to see him not kick everyone's ass in this game (yet anyway) Regardless, I'm sure its possible that someone has done <something like this> before. This just provides a clear guide on the how and the why to do it

@ Sammy - I thought you knew me? I know you I have about a 85% percent win percentage, I've played all except French, the far majority has been Ottoman. Send me your message address and we should play, I'll let you pick the map too. Don't expect to see this strat if you pick Ottoman etc, expect me in your base :P

Very few civs have a worthwhile FF. Ottoman isn't one of them. They don't really gain anything special by rushing to age 3. Your economy will be in complete shambles.

Even worse is that if the enemy Fast fortress against you, he will have better economy than you, and a much better army.

A strong age 2 crippling the opponent followed by a push to age 3 and then onto 4 is probably by far the most effective way of playing Ottos. In a pure boom-fest they will lose to almost all civs.

in fact the post in that MFO by pilsbury sums up everything I thought about the otto FF

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[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 12-07-2005 @ 11:58 PM).]

Disagree ^^^

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???? They gain the ability to triple their villager output - not including upgrades. What other civ can do this? Thats the whole point silly! :P

Ottos villi's are free, with free villi's they can FF as fast as everyone else. But like mentioned what hurts them will be their villi count. Thats a issue for them no matter what. This allows you to build TC's so that you not only make villager s faster (anwywere from 2-6 times faster) AFTER arrival, then hem-hawing with natives - fort or mercs until your free villagers spawn rate surpasses your opponents makes for a better economy, not worse.
So yes, I agree your econ is significantly behind, your military is not neceasrily any worse then a opponent who has boomed/turtles themselves and has no army themselves... But yes this is an advanced strat that will take skill to use until your villi spawn/free resource restores and suprasses your opponents. Man, its frustrating that people cannot get around the fact that they must rush with Jann's. Its not all about the highest winning percentage!
You can still acheive great success not doing the most "optimum strat".
Example: When people see the fast age up time, they will assume as usual that the Otto's are going to rush and most civs will have slowed down their own booms to a turtle as they know they will get owned if they try to 100 percent boom. MEanwhile your can boom straight ahead, their boom is slowed, they will have wasted resrouces, a lame card or two as they know they will get owned by most Ottomans if they don't. Not everyone (like ports) can go on and do their own thing regardless of what the opponent is doing. IT is the reverse irony of this strat that makes it doable I.M..H...O...

After seeing your included quote, I don't think it addresses the huge economic benefit of double and quadrupled free villagers.
Without that aspect(this strat), it is acutally plain silly to FF with Ottoman military wise for obvious reasons - so I don't think were on the same page here.

Interesting concept here. Also interesting read so far. I think it is way too early to know how beneficial or (not) the villager spawn advantage is.

So far I agree with hippocrack on this one. I can defintely see it working, you won't win mid games, but with the right deck, you can really take advantage of the free villagers, things like raiding are not that big of a deal, their are countless things I can think of. However, losing a TC would be crushing...

I play a lot of decent players, that won't touch me as Ottoman for a long time, I think this strat could work becuase of their expectation that the fight will come to them, and raids should not be a problem (for the Oncegreatone!).

With certain maps and opponents and a desire to compete with other civs late game, this looks really good. Again, how fast the "Free" villagers can catch up is the question. I will eventually try it out or look for others too and see how viable it is. Otherwise the Otto are too boring for me.

Best approach I have seen so far, because they really have nothing special in age 3 - except maybe for upgraded Abus. Those guys can do 96 long range damage that none can defend against. I can take out a Falconet with 2 abus - and almost any other unit, with other units I can add 1 or 2 more and CYA!!!

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Umm all civs can build 3 TC's in Fortress age and triple their villager output!

I tried this offline to test it, but it is pretty weak. Try this same strategy as spanish and you will see the complete difference in power. Otto FF is really throwing away their greatest strength i feel...

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I must of given the wrong link if it doesn't match. I have seen something similar though.

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^^^
I looked you up and I see you have only played 1 game as Ottoman. I'm not sure what makes you an authority on Ottomans, but I used to play them heavily.
Here's my 2 cents:
re: your quote: While it may or may not be that great due to there slow spawn rate, it is NOT the same. Other civs can build 3 TC's - sure
But the Ottomans spawn FREE villagers constantly. I don't see why it is equivalant. Their TC's are like factories but better. With three TC's spawing villagers ~ one every 16 seconds for free will help your economy immensely. While the current villagers are at a setback, they can make newer ones quicker and free.
Also other civs don't have access to the villager upgrades that Ottos do. Once that is invested in they can DOUBLE that, so its more = to a free villi every 8 seconds. Doing the math, a normal civ would be spending about 700 food a minute to produce villagers constantly. The Ottoman doesn't have to and over the course of a long game? 700 food x10 ='s 7000 free resources every 10 minutes and so on. Less micro, less worry re: raiding. It is a truly awesome thing IF you can get that machine rolling

This topic has got me thinking!!!
As a former Ottoman player, the biggest weakness and most frustrating thing about them is their villagers spawn soooo slow... The main reason why I stopped playing them is I could not get around the fact that I have to tear into my opponent ASAP, and then even experts call me lame for doing it! Well - I got tired of Ottos one way or another. SO I am interested if this works as I am good with them and never did get a fair shake at using them in long games.

I have no doubt that the Ottoman will have a better advantage later in the game the sooner they FF and get TC's up. They could be very effective with food heavy units with all the food that is not spent or maybe more important the villagers about to be made. They could still collect food from hunting-fast! with all the food saved from not making villagers. Also I like the Ottomans as they have the best infantry in the Jannisary.

Controversy!!!!
And they have best overall "unit" wtf is an abus gun? I don't know but it can do insane damage. While it is artillery I consider it infantry really but better. They have 50 percent ranged defense. And since they are considered artillery, ranged defense of things like skirmershers don't count. The Abus gun has no equal. Sorry French Cavs - you cost three times as much and take up 50 percent more pop. Sorry Dragoon, you are not as well rounded as the Cuiraisser or abus. I think the abus wins becuase of its range and can be microed better. I know some people will disagree with this, but The French Cuirassier is not better, its the French economy that makes them better. By itself - it is very expensive and I take range anyday. Thats why I hate the French, well everyting about them, but its their damn economy that allows them to mass those killing machines that don't even need microing. While the Otto rush is not that hard, microing abus takes skill. What skill is there in spamming cuiraisser;s from your overpowered economy????

Ottomans biggest weakeness IMO is no dragoons OR black riders, but then again the Great bombard is the best artillery unit by far, but hardly anyone uses them as Ottomans games are over - won or lost in mere minutes. So I share hippo's complaint there.

Thinking more, with their heavy wood bonus and -the best wood cards??? combined with all the food saved, the two trading post cards, they can really crank out uber Fotress Age natives.

I'm just wondering if one will sacrifce or lose too much ground in the 7-10 min range or so. Like Jeffrey was saying, I have seen and tried it, but it has never worked out. I think I have made about 3 mosques ever??? I'm gonna see if I can get this to work.
Also this strat doesn't use the Merchentilism tech, one could get this quick and the Ottomans have some very nice cards. I think this subject has a lot of potential and I stopped playing Ottomans a while back so I hope its a workable strat. Hippo, have you actually tried this against experts? or is this only for non-experts? :P I want to see a recorded game agaisnt a decent player. I am going to try and work the Merchantialism thing in there somehow. I think the biggest issue is regaining authroity while your economy is catching up and Merchatialism makes the most sense for this. You should add that to it IMO.

You don't have to play any civ to know how to beat it.

And anyone that's a competent player who doesn't get rushed by an Otto by 6:00 is going to immediately scout your base and attack if you are trying to boom. Killing 5 or 6 vills will certainly screw up the whole strat, and realistically is extremely easy to do especially if you have no military.

[This message has been edited by lordvasa (edited 12-08-2005 @ 03:48 AM).]

^^^
Ah yes, whats the point, competent players will stop any FF that booms w/o turtling. Why try it? Ottoman players won't be able to handle the port and brit hordes at 7-9 mins Its not like I can adjust it. *sighs* Are they going to stop booming and send 12 units! and crush me :/ Do you honestly think that a booming civilization is going to stop booming and send a decent army at an Ottoman? What kind of compentent player are you talking about?
More compentent players would expect the more likley scenario of a delayed rush where you haven't seen my two militay buildings or Galleon/Galley troop holders. Don't you think? As a "competent" player. Do you really think that the Otto is really going for a FF and not a delayed rush and you are going to stop booming, and send troops?
Flame time! Thats idiotic - chuub. And if you think a equally "competent player" is going to have their FF stopped by 3 Hussars then hurry up and stfu. I'll take your know it all attitude and screw u sideways. "You don't have to play it know it, blah, blah" Wrong chuub, you don't have to play it to criticize it - true, but people that think they have a qaulity a/o definitive answer to something when they haven't even played them is a joke. I think Ceres was just offering his two cents. Whereas you seem to be on some soapbox like you can close a subject. Wrong. You also have only played one game as an Ottoman & have all your wins using uhhh. French. Wow - impressive. This is noob heaven where chuubs like you think they carry weight to say such silly things like

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from your 'Ultimate German Strat' of which you win less then half the time. Must be real ultimate for you. Stick with your "lord of death metal persona" go check out your friends new black t-shirt and stfu. Just Like your motto: "We're arrogant untalented pricks...and you love it" <-- Well, you got the first two adjectives right. At least thats better then your post here.

First of all, no competent player is going to try and boom against an Ottoman since they will be expecting a rush. Secondly, when the rush doesn't materialize, they will send all of the units they were making to stop the rush to kill you.

Next, you might consider getting some anger management. Blowing up like this because someone disagrees with you is a sure sign that you have low self esteem and should seek help. What, are you 11? If my attitude offends you it's your problem, not mine. No one insulted you or was uncivil to you in any way. You're the one who crossed the immaturity threshold.

As far as the German strat goes, that was posted at the end of October, so I'm not sure if quoting it is a weak attempt at insulting my playing ability or not. I developed that strat after I lost those 45 games as Germans my first 3 or 4 days of having the game. 208 wins later (and no, I don't use all my vills to unpack crates anymore , I guarantee that my "chubb" ass could beat you 1v1 anyday.

My ESO name is GeneralVasa (but you already knew that). Unfortunately, I can't seem to find your ESO name posted anywhere. Odd that someone whose stats aren't readily viewable would run around calling others a noob.

[This message has been edited by lordvasa (edited 12-08-2005 @ 09:11 AM).]

Ottoman have an UP economy and an OP military, if you take out the UP economy then you can go take advantage of OP military.

Simple and sweet.

I already tried similar strat (but making some army) in diverse multiplayer games. It works fine ... and I usually have the highest score. Others may not have been experts ... but me neither.

With 100 villies you saved 10000 food (minus the upgrades) you can spend well on army. If people don't believe this strat is viable ... fine, they might get sloppy when not rushed by Ottos.

As a level 50 Ottoman player, I have been trying to perfect their "boom" for sometime now. I eventually ended up switching civs because I found myself not having that much fun because I was practically forced to rush. I put up a good winning % with them, but I play to win and have fun. The latter of those objectives was not being met after 100 games or so.

However, I found that not only is what hippocrack is saying plausible, it is feasible. I don't know if anyone is interested in the strat I have for the Otto boom, but if you guys want I could put something together for some constructive criticism.

It's not really "free" for Ottos to get to 100 villagers, is it? I mean they spend 1600 food to up their villie production speed (overall) and 2000 on upping their villie count (not including a card shipment to reduce the cost... and card shipment have their own opportunity cost.)

I agree that they definitely get 100 villagers cheaper than anyone else does. It's not free, though, and that's NOT mentioning the opportunity cost loss of spawning villagers half as fast as other civs do.

Well I played in a team game last week. Me (russian) teammate(brits) vs french and otto. Well on paper we didn't stand a chance anyhow haha.

Anyhow my point is the otto player used this strat VERY effectively. I built an army early expecting him to attack, when the french show up. Well I beat him down easy enough, and by now I realise the otto player is booming. Except my army left over is not big enough to march to the far corner to slow down the Ottos. (my brit partner was a bit of a noob falling way behind in villie count) So by the time I get age 3 he is hitting age 4. 5 minutes after that he has a fully upgraded army with great bombards and leveled us.

I cannot say for sure how it would have went if I played the otto 1 v 1 and he used this strategy, but in a team game I would think it is the best way to go for ottos.

This strategy will work on noobs perfectly fine. Any civ with decent scouting will just see you have no barracks. Will see you shipped gold and just crush you.

3 HUssars won't stop the FF, but if you can't access any resources because the enemy contains you in your little base where are you going to get resources from. Even with all your villagers. (all 14 of them)

In fact where are you even getting the extra TC's from? You will be forced to ship military units ASAP once you get to fortress and 14 villagers are not going to chop enough wood for you to build 2TC's. So something has got to give. You can't build to 2Tc's and field an army immediately. Hell, Portugal can do this and still lose. Sure I can beat noobs with it but no good player is going to let you get a single resource outside of your base... ever.

I've don't play ottomans online but that doesn't stop me from testing their strategies offline. and this FF strategy is so damn slow it is amazing that you can actually win game with it. And I would be willing to bet it is because your enemy just turtles his life away. Just do this strategy as any other civ and you will see the difference right away.

In team games of course one player can boom if the other covers you. This strategy won't work at all in 1v1, and in team games you would be better of rushing as ottoman and letting your teammate boom (assuming he is not ottoman as well)

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 12-08-2005 @ 10:37 AM).]

First of all, good job for trying to come up with an otto boom strategy. It's not easy, and you obviously put a lot of thought into it. I love the otto, but I stopped using them for much of the same reasons others stated above.

This strat is nice, but it does have it's weaknesses. I've been working on an otto boom that would give me 10 jans and 5 abus to defend my base, but it is still pretty slow. I might just try it with the 10 jans and see how that works. My method has been more of a conventional boom with villager cards and market improvements, so this strat is an interesting change of perspective. Maybe if we combined both strats we'd have something nice, but who knows.

The otto boom is going to be a big risk no matter how well we plan the strat for it. I just want the otto to be less one-dimensional, and I'm willing to take a little risk to do that.

Ottoman FF can be OK without considering military issues (such as facing a fair sized attack early,I'd also tested a few times offline,vs computer AI,no big military actions before 30 minutes if not using French Germany and Spain as opponent).

Some minor changes to the build/card play could make it a little better.One change I can think of is send the "silk road" first,then a 600 or 700 gold(depends on if starting with 100 gold or not,and chose Polititians accordingly,with silk road,700 coin now being 910,and 600 to 780),still two shipments after hitting colonial and fortress at about the same time,but one resource card saved.With a TP in the 1st age,they can have another 2 shipment ready before hitting fortress,and can ask for wood card(if short on wood to build a church before hitting fortress) and another coin card to buy the church experience tech.So there will be 3 shipments when hitting fortress...almost the same as Ceres' original Port's Mercantilism boom(yes,no free TCs,but slightly more resources and villagers).Compare to the results of resource gathering of other civ's offline tests,I've done,Ottoman's is acceptable,not far behind in resource gathering(minus those resources saved from Nx100 food,the church tech cost already considered),but as the game last longer(near 20 minutes and onwards),Ottoman began to fall behind to even the weakest of other civs,not mentioning powerhouses as French:their "free villagers" just can't offset the effect of slower generating speed.

BTW.Spahis might be the best fortress age raiding unit,same trample damage but slightly faster(6.5) and stronger than the dreaded French Cui*er(even more stronger in Industrial,at 1000HP mark with arsenal tech and maybe a card/comanch tech,In Emperial,more HPs than a manuluke...),and they can regain health fairly fast.

@ Oncegreat & lordvase - Whoa. not sure what happened there, but please take the flame war elsewhere :P

I must admit that therei s great difficulty in overcoming the Ottoman's economy- hence this strat. (@ Unthinking - they are free with additional TC's - upgrades are another matter of course) I'm excited that others have tried and experienced some success with dealing opponents. tbh I have not used this on a expert player as then I am focused on the optimum strat, however I have used it on boobs through ~ decent players and succeeded well. The big issue is recovering - this is similar to the all free merc strat of the Germans, - you should need to buy a little time to use the superior position you put yourself in - later. :/

I like some of what was posted like silk road, or experimenting themselves - that would be a good. I have found getting the fort up ASAP my lifesaver. While I don't setup a forward base, 3 TC's & the Fort holds up when they try to stop me from doing my thing. (its gets very sketchy when they are just lurking outside your base ready to shoot down your fort<-- this has been the most annoying. In this respect this is similar to port dilemma. I hadn't really thought of using Spahi, but their regenerating is nice & combined with the mercantile thing I think Spahi cards with the fort would go nicely. @ Plebus here: I like the saved GOLD card most of all, - but also - you would have extra wood for church.market so that is a viable path - but normally you would arrive in Fortress w/o Mercantilism with approx 1500 resources (Ceres you shold enough wood to build a second TC (need pop space & added defense anyway) and you can use the TC card very soon), enough to flip out a TC card and Fort (or Spahi if required for now) and have enough wood to build the third TC.

I have found the latter (Fort/TC) route the best. @ Plebus again - your quote "but as the game last longer(near 20 minutes and onwards)" your saying that their economy gets worse? Please explain that position. With three TC's spurting out free villagers upgraded or not, I don't understand that. I might be a little bias here though as my best skill is raiding, so I tend to cripple my opponent's (and win) through weakening their economy and with army confrontations microed with the idea of winning based on attrition not just owning - then I slowly peg them in a corner with artillery if my raiding does make them quit by itself (long games) Then you can use your superior artillery whatever.

The whole success of it depends on making it through those middle X- minutes and how your opponent reacts. So I guess it is wise to see his cards, size up his civ, have you played him b4?, water map, large map? et cetera. As there is no need to flip out your deck until needed, often you can see what your opponent is up to if you have this luxury of waiting at higher skill levels. Where you can see if they are booming etc, and since the initial build for Ottoman is same either way, one can make better decisions to "go for it!" - but scouting is important, also perhaps using the 2 Galley card on water maps b4 anyone else will allow you to do as Ottomans fine... <-- Any ideas like that are good. Like said I can already beat the average player, so I'm not sure if this strat is necessarily any better then any other as it has gone untested against expert types. But help making it work at the expert level would be nice Otherwise it may be doomed to playing against people with less skill then you - which for some folks may things rather hard but I am going to try it against an expert or three when the conditions look good. I like the possibilities of this on water maps the most right now, but I would like to be able to trick equal opponents in getting away with this. (Obviously wouldn't do it against the normal Ottoman etc) For AoM folks, this reminds me of the RA quick 3rd age up or the Odin quick age (Isis doesn't count :P) - where even in those there was early game vulnerability for wanted access to superior military units- I guess in this case its the very opposite - but very similar Cheers

@hippocrack:I mean when use each civ doing a FF then 3 TC boom,little military action,a pure eco race,then check the aftergame graph...Ottoman's economy is quite competant till ~20 minutes(maybe earlier,I've only checked a few "milestones" such as 10 minutes,20 minutes,etc.),everyone can out produce Ottoman signifcantly...all "normal" civs can get 3 new villagers in 24 seconds while Otteman need 30,when food cost is no longer a limiting factor,they will lose the resource gathering race eventually.That's not say this is not a viable strategy,as Ottoman has some very cost effective units/combo ...and if somehow Otteman can survive till all have 99 villagers and 200 population,they are even again...maybe even stonger