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Topic Subject: The Great Wall - A real Dutch turtle
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posted 01-27-06 08:22 PM EDT (US)   
The Great Wall


Version 1.00. Released at 28.1.06

Table of contents
I. Introduction
II. The tactic
III. Build Order
IV. Cards
V. Strategy
VI. Replays (comming soon)
VII. Final words


I. Introduction
'The turtle strategy is a tactic that is based on taking measures to defend from the very beginning. Right from the start you make walls around your town center and ressources to prevent possible rushes.' (free translation from: AoE3 manuel page 96)

This is my latest developed startegy. It deals with walling and defence in order to fight back enemy rushes.
The turtle tactic itself is meant to be the natural counter to the rush tactic.
However, since there are hardly tactics including real defences and walls around i decided to write this guide. At the end of it you should be able to build up a defence that deserves the name 'turtle'.

II.The tactic
As i already mentioned in the introduction this is a tactic meant to be played against rushes. It can be played vs Boom tactic and the FF tactic as well, but it is probably not the best decision.

Pros:
+beats rushers
+decent economy
+decent early military availability
+cheap
+there is not much that can go through your walls in age 2 :bang:
+Prevents raiding
+Prevents enemy scouting
+takes advantage of the Dutchs natural opportunity to turtle
+Dutch were meant to be played defensive
Cons:
-might loose vs FF: Cannons/mercs cut through your walls too fast
-delays your Fortess age time
-worse economy than a boomer or someone that uses the 'normal' build gets
-might loose vs boom in economical points
-hardly map control

So why should i choose this tactic instead of a normal one? Walls just suck?
No they don't! Walls are somewhat cheap if compared to outposts. If a part of a wall falls you can rebuild it for very few wood while you would have to pay 250 for an outpost. A complete wall costs me only around 170 wood.
Walls also sepperate you from the rest of the world in positive meaning. No enemy can scout what troups you are making, all he can do i guessing or sending the balloon card (which few players use) while you can scout his army and build the counter units. In addition you are unraidable, no 10 Kossaks that kill half of your gold miners...
It is hardly possible for an age 2 army to break them down when you got your forces behind it. (cf the time examples given below) All you have to do is placing some skirimishers to stop an entire army. Even when a part falls you can easyly block it with pikes.

Walling means loosing mapcontrol!
Dutch is one of the civilisations in AoE3 that is dependend on natural ressources that much. Banks give enough gold so your vils can focus on gathering food and wood (to build up mills so you never have to leave your base). Ofc this is still slower than an opponent that can use all the gold mines and huntings on the map. As i mentioned is is not the purpose of this tactic to outboom your opponent.
Trading posts is another issue. The majority will fall to the enemy, but the Dutch can keep up with XP with the help of banks.

Sounds like there is no other tactic!
This isn't meant to replace other tactics. It will probably fall to boomers since you can neitheroutboom nor rush them hard.
Vs FF it is also not easy because mercs or falcoons can beat your age 2 wall in a matter of seconds.

As we got the basics lets move on to the BO.

III. Build Order
So how should I start? What card to ship in first?
There are several aims you need to achieve when using this tactic:
-Having the wall finished or nearly finished when your age up is complete
-Having enough ressources for 5 skirimisher after the rax is ready
-having enough ressources for a (nearly) constant villagers production
You do not have to follow my build, but in order to achieve the above shown aims should should at least try it.

1.) Put 4 vils on gold, 3 on crates.
2.) As soon as you can queque one vil move 2 more vils to gold (total of 6 now).
3.) All outcomming vils go hunt.
4.) Let the vil that collected the crates build a house and then join the hunters.
5.) Ship in 300 wood but do not collect it yet.
6.) As soon as you have paid for the 14th villager move all gold miners to food.
7.) Age up using the 500 wood politician right after the the villagers comes out.

This is the basic BO. It's pretty much like the standart BO but imo it works a little bit better. 6 vils on gold means absolutly no idle TC. You will get the 'lost' food back when you move them to food.
It is important to use your scout and envoy. You have to:
-detect a second mine next to your base
-the enemy (especially his area of hunting)
-get as much treasures as possible
-have no fog of war at all around your base so you can build the wall without gaps.


8.) Move villagers to gold till you have 7 there and 4 on food.
9.) 3 villagers collect the wood and build the wall, after they go to gold.
10.) Queque villagers till you have 19/20 supply during advance in order to be able to use the 8 pikeman shipment+continue villaghers production before the second house stands. They go to gold.
11.) When advance is ready move 3 villagers on the wood crates from the politician and build a rax, 2 houses and a market as fast as possible (in this order).
12.) Continue villager production and make at least 5 skirimishers once the rax is ready. (You don't have to queque all 5 asap, do it one by one when you have the gold for it.) There might be a short time when you cannot keep villager production but try to shorten it as much as possible.
13.) Have 4 villagers on food and the rest on gold. As soon as you are sure you can keep producing both skirms and villagers move some miners to wood in order to be able to build more houses and develop the market upgrates. Do only uprade gold and food once, you will probably rely on banks and mills soon.

The main question is surely how to grant both villager and military production while having less workers than normal gathering ressources. There is one ressource you do not need that much: Food. 4 or 5 villagers should give you enough to build an army and develop some market upgrades. The 'saved' villagers gather gold and build the wall which has first priority. Ofc this will delay your Fortress time. So ship in 700 food if you are going for advance.

IV. Cards
There is no perfect all around turtle deck. Every player has his own ideas. However here are some cards that can be helpful.


Must have. Since you don't ship 3 settlers the 4 settler card is very helpful to catch up with economy.


Must have. This is the only way to build a wall by time. It also helps in age 2 to build more houses.


Must have. The 700 ressources cards are very helpful, especially for turtle players. Whenever your enemy trys to deny you ressources or you need 700 Gold to age up quickly you can send them.


Must have. When you play turtle a long game can happend quite often. These 2 cards give an amazing advantage in age 4. Get at least one of them.


Must have. This is the ultimate defnsive/offensive/unit production building. You can use it in many different ways.


Must have. You will often highly rely on banks, so get these 2 cards to increase the maximum number.


Must have. Pikes are needed to protect your Skirimishers from enemy cavallery, to destroy enemy buildings and to fill the gap if an enemy broke down one wall segment.


Must have. Useful to raid your enemy and to fight back early attelery attacks.


Must have. Mercs are so strong atm that you should have at least two of these cards in your deck.


Must have. Offers many useful upgrades to Skirimishers.


Must have. Recommendable because of the coffee trade. Allowes you to use more banks.


Must have. Cannot only be used for defence but also for safe gold mining or hunting outside the base.
------------------------------------------------------------ -

Since you are turteling it might be helpful to get this car in order to be able to get the ressources needed with less loss when trading at the market.


Any bank improvements might help.


Another helpful card for turtelers. You will have to build mills as soon as huntings next to your base are gone.


Anything that helps you increase building and wall hp is very helpful.


Useful if you are planning to build some attelery or mercs.


Might be helpful to scout the opponent. In some cases this card is just great! The player who knows what the enemy is building can get the right counters before and not after a battle.


V. Strategy
This chapter shows how to build the wall, attack, raid, defend...

Wall placement
There are several important things to note when building the wall:
-Leave no gap! If there is any your enemy will probably find it which gives you a huge disadvantage and usually means lose vs equal players. Especially at the sites of the map this can happen very easyly!
-Don't have anything in between! Trees, outposts, trade routes etc may give your opponent the opportunity to pass the wall.
-Use the map to save wood! Use the end of the map and mountains to your advantage.
-Have at least 2 gold mines in it! If you don't you will have problems with gold before you can build your banks in case that the enemy has the mapcontrol
-Use your villagers like that: One starts at the very top, one at the very bottom and one in the middle (if you have 3)
-Neither make it too big nor to small: This tactic is titeled the Great Wall, it is not just a bigger box around your TC. More space means that less can fire over your wall and attack your building or villagers.
Neither make it to big. Wood is a very important ressource, don't waste it. A bigger wall means more building time in addition
-Have it ready in time! If you are to slow the enemy will just kill your builders and half of the wall and you won't have any protection, just a screwed economy.

Defence
Here is the secret why walls are so effective for the Dutch: Skirimishers. Skirimishers have an increadibly high range, the only unit that can compete with them are the Ottoman abus guns. So all you have to do is to put your skirimishers behind the wall and (focus-) fire at the enemy. Noone besides abus guns has the range to fire back, so your enemy will either loose half of his army when trying to break through the wall or stay away from it, noticing that a rush is hardly possible . The thing you have to look at is that the enemy doesn't split his army in order to break at another side as your troups currently are.
There are only 2 units that can give you problems:
-The above mentioned abus guns: These units can kill your Skirimishers quite fast, but that doesn't mean you can't defeat them. In order to be able to shoot you the abus guns have to come close to the wall, making them vulnerable for your cavallery (which you should get when facing Ottoman). Abus guns themselfes need ages to kill even a single wall sigment, so the ottoman needs Janissarys or grenadiers for it. If you kill these units by using hit and run the left over abus guns will fall fast to your cavallery. (yes, you will need it!). Here the wall helps you to get time to get a stable up and build effective counters to these abus(e) guns.
-Grenadiers: Age 2 attelery. Even though they do counter structures directly, they won't be able to break through your wall with ease since your skirimishers can kill them from long range.

So you defended well early game, but there might be situations where you still have to defend in age three, four or even five.
If the enemy attacks are strong you should upgrade your wall and get the Fortress asap.
Now there is a new problem: The enemy can now make heavy attelery which pawns your wall in seconds. You should use Culverins against that. Culverins have a slightly longer range than falcoons which makes it harder for the enemy to kick your defence. You should also have a strong cavallery force by now (preferable Hussars which are far more effective than Ryuters vs attelery).

Offensive
Ofc you cannot sit inside your shell forever, you need to do some dmg to the enemy. 'Doing dmg to the enemy' means raiding for the time being. If you are not attacked use your age 2 force to kill villagers and weaker buildings like houses and markets. Your skirimishers will cause the enemy to despair since there are hardly units that can compete with them in age 2. Cavallery gets countered by your pikeman. Again the only effective counter is abus guns.
When using skirimishers use hit and run tactics. Cf Moonys Skirimsher Micro Guide.
[JPEG, (212.49 KB)]
All other attacks depend completly on your playing style. Just build your favourite units and go bash the enemy.
Ofc you should scout for his army and produce counter units. This can be done by the balloon or the Envoy (quite hard).
If you for Example scoutet that the enemy is massing Muskets go produce Skirimishers + falcoons to destroy him. Hide these units till it comes to a battle so he cannot get counter units in time.
You may use any tactic you want to beat the enemy. I would suggest you take advantage of your defence and build up a larger army and go at least to Fortress time in order to produce falcoons.

Economy
There is a basical problem when turteling: It is usually you enemy that has the map control. Map control means he can use mines, huntings and tradeposts while you have use slower ways to gather food, wood and XP.
Fortunately we are playing the Dutch This means we have the opportunity to build banks. Banks resolve both gold and XP problem. You should start to build banks before all availabe gold mines (that means sometimes only one) are empty. Use the 700 ressource cards to help you out. Send food and wood to build banks and gold if you need it to keep on pumping units. Ressource cards are very helpful for a turtle gamer! In order to get food you should start to build mills after your berrys are empty and there are no more safe hunting places. You can play cards like cheaper mill or Bank of Amsterdam to improve your economy. The improved market can also help.
Ofc this is only if your opponent has total mapcontrol. Usually you can compete with him. Use the 2 outpost wagon card to build safe places for your villagers mining or hunting outside your base.
All in all you should always aim for mapcontrol but if there is no other way don't give up yet and move your economy from faster to slower methods. The game isn't over yet! Ressearch only the upgrades you really need in the market. it doesn't make sense to develop gold mining to the maximum when you have only 1 safe gold mine.

Tips&Tricks
There are some further tricks and interesting points:
-Tip: Use the church! It can upgrade your wall (+150% hp!!) and give your units a higher line of sight. This helps with scouting and hit and run tactics.
-Trick: Leave a gap in the wall. Most enemys will think you made a mistake but once his troups pass the gap attack him from 2 sides or lure him to some defensive buildings.
-Trick: You can wall in half of the map! Some maps allow this. It gives you a real advantage in points of map control but note that it migh need more time and ressources.
-Tip: Do not forget about ships! Some rushers like to send a Galleon instead of building a rax. So make sure his troups can't enter from the water side.
-Tip: Look at the enemys deck to detect his strategy and scout his shipments/which polititions. If you see lots of mercs you can be wuite sure that your enemy will go for a FF. To be sure about that you canscout which politician he chose and what his seconds shipment is. If he chooses the 500 food guys and ships in 700 gold he will likely FF.
-Tip: Stay flexible! If the above shown example happends (you are sure you will fight a FF guys) adjust your tactic! Do not stick to the turtle thing, use the 300 wood for a quick fwd rax in order to rush him and delay his mercs.

Facts and numbers
Just some numbers to show you how this tactic works
-2 Falcoons need 30 seconds to kill a wall
-5 Grenadiers need 35 seconds to kill a wall
-5 Pikes need 55 seconds to kill a wall
-5 Jannissary need 1:10 minutes to kill a wall
-5 Hussars need 1:30 minutes to kill a wall
-5 Abus Guns need 2 minutes to kill a wall

-You should hit the age up button at around 3 minutes
-Your age up should be ready at around 4:30 minutes
-You should have around 5 Skirimishers+17 villagers at around 5:45 minutes


VI. Replays
I will post replays showing the strategy as soon as possible.


VII. Final words
A well played turtle can kill a rushers day! Maybe you got an idea of the opportunities walls can give.
Phew done! Took some time but I hope you liked this guide. However post your opinions/suggestions/comments here so I can try to improve the guide.
(c) -PhoEniX-

[This message has been edited by XPhoEniX (edited 01-27-2006 @ 08:23 PM).]

Replies:
posted 01-27-06 08:37 PM EDT (US)     1 / 29  
wow great guide, that must have taken ages!

It seems many people are starting to discover that walls infact don't suck.


One question though, why exactly do you ship pikemen if you intend to be turtling behind the wall? surely you want ranged units instead?

Also if you can age up to fortress within 2 or 3 mins of your enemy getting there, you can usually get culverins out which wil protect you from falconets.

Also while i'm not sou sure about dutch, is it okay to not wall any wood? i noticed in the screen shot there is just like 5 trees in your base, is that enough?

posted 01-27-06 08:48 PM EDT (US)     2 / 29  
Hm, what about putting in 600 gold/food in substitution for those 8 pikes, to build more skirmishers?

If you wall, then enemy would expand, leaving your skirms ample time to kill a few vills and run back into the safety of your walls before cav gets you.

posted 01-27-06 09:02 PM EDT (US)     3 / 29  
@ceres: Yes, dutch need wood. They need lots of it for banks and houses. I suppose you were joking when you asked if five trees were enough.

@phoenix: It seems you have used the wrong image beside the bank of amsterdam card. Instead of virginia trading company, it should e bank of rotterdam.

Nice guide!

PS. This is very similar to my russian stranglehold strategy. (please visit the thread and throw insults at the strat) Except my strat involves walling in the enemy, and using blockhouses to defend the wall, while cutting him off from resources. Also they have cheap units. I suppose this could work for dutch too.


~·························································~
ESO: F1RÉ_FLÝ
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posted 01-27-06 09:12 PM EDT (US)     4 / 29  
Ceres

Quote:

One question though, why exactly do you ship pikemen if you intend to be turtling behind the wall? surely you want ranged units instead?

He said somewhere that you should raid with your skirms as well.. anything that counters skirms gets countered by Pikes, so I guess that's the only explanation for it. Although I do believe that keeping your Skirms at home is better at higher levels.. use 3 hussars if you really must (...) raid, still free resources > pikemen/hussars when turtling.

Edit: And he also said somewhere that when a wall falls, your pikemen can block the road while your skirms do the rest. Debatable argument.


Nice guide. Although there's nothing new in it for me, Im sure it will be quite helpful for many guys and girls out there.

Terrible walling though, I think you might wanna try it in more games before posting such a horrible screen,

[This message has been edited by Y3AH (edited 01-27-2006 @ 09:17 PM).]

posted 01-27-06 09:17 PM EDT (US)     5 / 29  
posted 01-27-06 09:19 PM EDT (US)     6 / 29  
Walls do help against everyone except for ottos with dutch. I tried it against an otto and he ONLY built abus guns and dropped it in 2 seconds(maybe less). I play dutch a lot and the 8 pikes is a waste to be honest if you are going to wall in. They are so easy to micro. Instead as the second guy said ship some age 2 res. My favorite thing to do is turtle to fort with walls and just mass some skirms right away to shoot through the wall at attackers. Then when i age up i usually have enough to ship black riders. If you know what you're doing you will have an unstoppable combo with br's and skirms.

You are right on the not beating ff. Dutch absoulutely cannot beat a good ff.

Overall i like the guide and it has a few useful tips for people having trouble deciding what to do as dutch.

posted 01-27-06 09:37 PM EDT (US)     7 / 29  
Seems people are tring to turtle more..atleast theres more topics in here about it. I think if done well it coudl definately kill a rush. Decent way to play dutch and I think it could work well vs some rushes.

Great guide..good job ^^

posted 01-27-06 09:48 PM EDT (US)     8 / 29  
DaveTheGreat, I doubt your opponent took down your wall in 2 seconds. Other than that, you said he "massed" abusguns, so I doubt it was a REAL rush.

The walls should give you enough time to que hussars. I am sure you know how to scout.. if not, you really need to learn it fast if you want to continue playing the Dutch at intermediate levels.

As for this strat beating an FF, don't scratch if off of the list before trying it.. My brother is having quite some succes vs. the German FF-merc, yet he doesn't use it vs. other civs.. I would give the Dutch another try... but the Spanish are just too much fun to play with at the moment.

posted 01-27-06 10:11 PM EDT (US)     9 / 29  
Well he had about 10 with 5 jannisaries of them at about 7 minutes. Maybe not exactly 2 seconds but it was fast. It maybe took them an extra 30 seconds max to get it down.
posted 01-28-06 01:36 AM EDT (US)     10 / 29  
The problem I always ran into with these techniques is that at about 8:30 your gold mine runs out. At 6:30 your animals run out. At about 10:30 the wood runs out. Oh yeah and that Wall looks like more than 170 wood. The gate alone is 50 wood, but I might be wrong.

Your next closest gold mine is too far to use the walled in area as a saftey spot for the Villagers that will be on that mine. But you might have had one closer, won't hold map screws against you.

My question is, where do you go from the picture? I see you having three real options for where you'll be at 8:30.

1. Use your army to hold the next closest mine.

2. Tower up the closest mine

3. Build banks and stay in the box.


The problem I had when I tried all three of those routes, was that Mercs and or Cannons would come kill everything outside the box, break in, and start killing inside the box.

posted 01-28-06 01:41 AM EDT (US)     11 / 29  
Phoenix check your PM at Gr.org regarding this
posted 01-28-06 03:43 AM EDT (US)     12 / 29  
very well indeed... i liked this one as it can save you at FFA, if ur between rush civs, they see the walls and think, what a newb hes not problem so ill just rush some other guy.

i have noticed whit my Dutch home city that Dutch need loads of wood, i play lot of FFAs and here u can gain upper hand just at colonial& fortress pumping buildings and then mage massive walls.

posted 01-28-06 07:41 AM EDT (US)     13 / 29  

Quote:

The problem I always ran into with these techniques is that at about 8:30 your gold mine runs out. At 6:30 your animals run out. At about 10:30 the wood runs out. Oh yeah and that Wall looks like more than 170 wood. The gate alone is 50 wood, but I might be wrong.

Your next closest gold mine is too far to use the walled in area as a saftey spot for the Villagers that will be on that mine. But you might have had one closer, won't hold map screws against you.

My question is, where do you go from the picture? I see you having three real options for where you'll be at 8:30.

1. Use your army to hold the next closest mine.

2. Tower up the closest mine

3. Build banks and stay in the box.


The problem I had when I tried all three of those routes, was that Mercs and or Cannons would come kill everything outside the box, break in, and start killing inside the box.

Resources running out is not only a problem of the wall tactic. It is a general problem. You should see the wall as a defence, it will hardly delay your options to get resources outside. On the screenshot i had 2 gold mines walled in, one of them was a gold mine which grants enough gold till you have mapcontrol/can build banks.

You are right, i forgot to include the gates in the wood cost. Anyway you need 170 wood to be save from rushes, gates are additional

Ofc mercs are a problem, but wouldn't they be if you had no wall?^^ Anyway as i stated this is an anti rush build, not a n anti FF one. You should have no problem to catch up with a rusher who will have less ressources and worse economy than you in most cases.

Quote:

Well he had about 10 with 5 jannisaries of them at about 7 minutes. Maybe not exactly 2 seconds but it was fast. It maybe took them an extra 30 seconds max to get it down.


Indeed. 30 seconds is all you need to stop the enemy. Just shoot them with your skirimishers. He will either loose half of his army or have to retreat.
If you have problems with ottoman a no wall build wouldn't help you more to survive 10 abus guns+5 Janissaries.

Quote:

As for this strat beating an FF, don't scratch if off of the list before trying it.. My brother is having quite some succes vs. the German FF-merc, yet he doesn't use it vs. other civs.. I would give the Dutch another try... but the Spanish are just too much fun to play with at the moment.


Maybe it works, but i myself prefer a rush with a fwd rax in order to stop the FF user early.

Quote:

One question though, why exactly do you ship pikemen if you intend to be turtling behind the wall? surely you want ranged units instead?

Also if you can age up to fortress within 2 or 3 mins of your enemy getting there, you can usually get culverins out which wil protect you from falconets.

Also while i'm not sou sure about dutch, is it okay to not wall any wood? i noticed in the screen shot there is just like 5 trees in your base, is that enough?

Pikeman is not a special card for this tactic, you should always consider it when playing dutch as your second card. Pikes defend your skirimishers which would be raped in seconds by enemy cavallery. They also help to kill houses which helps a lot when you attack.

Quote:

Walls do help against everyone except for ottos with dutch. I tried it against an otto and he ONLY built abus guns and dropped it in 2 seconds(maybe less).


Abus guns do very little dmg to walls. You say he used mass abus guns? Just ship in 3 Hussars and get a stable up and gg..

[This message has been edited by XPhoEniX (edited 01-28-2006 @ 07:46 AM).]

posted 01-28-06 08:38 AM EDT (US)     14 / 29  

Quote:

Maybe it works, but i myself prefer a rush with a fwd rax in order to stop the FF user early.

I'm not sure who your playing but a dutch rush fails miserably to even a half competant FF. Against a fast german or spanish FF (6:30) its a guaranteed 100% failure. By the time you arrive hes almost in fortress. The best FF's can stop even that otto rush. What chance does dutch have to defeat an FF that even an otto rush can't defeat?

Quote:

Pikeman is not a special card for this tactic, you should always consider it when playing dutch as your second card. Pikes defend your skirimishers which would be raped in seconds by enemy cavallery.

Enemy cavalry that shouldn't be able to attack your skirmishers in the first place assuming you walled yourself in. You would be far better off shipping 700 wood and building a bank or two.

I don't quite understand the point of your 'turtle/rush' strategy. Turtle and boom is what you want to do. Skirms behind walls are enough to repel all colonial attacks except maybe mass grenadiers.

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-28-2006 @ 08:38 AM).]

posted 01-28-06 08:38 AM EDT (US)     15 / 29  

Quote:

...
-Having the wall finished or nearly finished when your age up is complete.
...

Not questioning the whole strategy,but this part: Does it neccessary to finish the wall at 4:30?Is it specifically for Otto 5-10 jannissary rush?...In other words,is it neccessary to ship in 300 wood to build a Great wall that early,is it neccessary to do it on ALL (anit-rush) senarios?...We know dutch is already slow in eco at the start,dutch must put every bit of resources they can get to full use,if not,it will push then futher behind...I've read some very good tutling idea's from Cere629's guide for british,and in his replays,you can see he only build walls before the time he think enemy will attack,other wise he use the wood on his manor boom.

[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 01-28-2006 @ 08:39 AM).]

posted 01-28-06 08:43 AM EDT (US)     16 / 29  
My bad for not reading his whole strategy, but the orange part was a bit hard to see and I didn't read it all. (maybe change the colour?)

He ships 300 wood to build the wall, not only that but you don't collect it right away!?

That really does suck, i'm sorry to say. Save the shipment until you reach age 2 and ship 700 wood instead.

You really want to get banks up asap. More banks less villagers. Keep all villies on food and keep shiping wood and building banks, i'm willing to bet 600 wood is better than 4 villagers.

Less villagers more banks is better since banks don't run out of resources. (don't ship villies)

While I don't play dutch I did practise a boom turtle with them,similar to what i do as british and I must say you are focusing too much on military and not enough of booming.

Get rid of that 300 wood card and 8 pikeman shipment. Ship 700 food and 700 wood in their place. Build banks.

Also don't wall unless you think the enemy will attack as plebus mentioned. Scout the enemy when he ages up, look at what resources he is gathering, check his deck, check his shipments. Dutch have an envoy which makes this incredibly easy to do, there is no way you can get suprised by a rush if you play well. 4 villies can wall your base in about 30 seconds. Wait until the last minute to wall.

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-28-2006 @ 08:51 AM).]

posted 01-28-06 09:02 AM EDT (US)     17 / 29  

Quote:

He ships 300 wood to build the wall, not only that but you don't collect it right away!?

That really does suck, i'm sorry to say. Save the shipment until you reach age 2 and ship 700 wood instead.

You really want to get banks up asap. More banks less villagers. Keep all villies on food and keep shiping wood and building banks, i'm willing to bet 600 wood is better than 4 villagers.

Less villagers more banks is better since banks don't run out of resources. (don't ship villies)

While I don't play dutch I did practise a boom turtle with them,similar to what i do as british and I must say you are focusing too much on military and not enough of booming.

Get rid of that 300 wood card and 8 pikeman shipment. Ship 700 food and 700 wood in their place. Build banks.


he don't collect rightway it becaues he have to collect food for age up quicker...
300 wood card is not bad,300 wood worth 700 because it is 2 mins/1 age earlier,ofcourse,only when used right.

Ceres you have a good understanding of dutch now only one thing prevent you from doing something great for the dutch community here:you fall in love with brits

posted 01-28-06 09:07 AM EDT (US)     18 / 29  

Quote:

Ceres you have a good understanding of dutch...

lol, i wish!

I have a good understanding of turtling, but as for playing with dutch

I just can't get my head around their economy. I feel so constricted having to use banks to boom since banks only generate coin where as british mass villies can mine any resource you want them too. And can be upgraded to collect certain resources faster if u need more of that resource.

posted 01-28-06 11:26 AM EDT (US)     19 / 29  
Hmmm. I skimmed all the posts and the guide and am thinking. Why not try and combine this with the wild card strat? so you can have lots of shipments and walls.
posted 01-28-06 12:11 PM EDT (US)     20 / 29  

Quote:

I'm not sure who your playing but a dutch rush fails miserably to even a half competant FF. Against a fast german or spanish FF (6:30) its a guaranteed 100% failure. By the time you arrive hes almost in fortress. The best FF's can stop even that otto rush. What chance does dutch have to defeat an FF that even an otto rush can't defeat?

Um...no? I have 8 pikes and 5 skirms in their base by 5:30. This usually means they can't gather anything for a good minute, and then I'll take down their houses...After that I go for fortress.

And more about the topic, I really don't like "town box" ideas because expanding is inevitable~~ lolz, But I understand how it can defeat a rush. The problem is it can't stop otto rush, and their pretty much the only people that still always rush.

Kurupt~

posted 01-28-06 12:20 PM EDT (US)     21 / 29  

Quote:

Um...no? I have 8 pikes and 5 skirms in their base by 5:30. This usually means they can't gather anything for a good minute, and then I'll take down their houses...After that I go for fortress.

lol? Those units would get killed in less than 30 seconds from tc fire and minute men.

not to side track this thread but I've had 15 jans and 5 abus's in my base from 1900+ players at 5:30 and still win. I've had 10 jans and 5 grenadiers come at me and I still get my lancers and skirms out in time.

I'm pretty sure 15 jans and 5 abus are way more dangerous than 8 pikes and 5 skirms that will just get shot up by tc fire. I designed my spanish FF to be prefectly ok even with up to a minute of idle time.

I'm not talking about a noob copy a build order FF'r, I'm talking about someone who actually knows what they are doing.
its a pointless debate, anyone who does a 6:30 FF knows its almost unrushable especially for dutch.

I'm not a dutch player, but most experienced dutch players on this forum i'm sure have experienced that rushing an german or spanish fast FF is pointless. they will own you.

[This message has been edited by Ceres629 (edited 01-28-2006 @ 12:23 PM).]

posted 01-28-06 12:47 PM EDT (US)     22 / 29  
Waiting them FF is pointless too because their fortress > dutch. The point of the rush is to slow down their eco, so dutch can at least try and catch up.

Another rush I can do is 10 grenadiers and 8 pikes by 6:30ish~ This is the one I use against spanish since they can FF faster usually.

Grenadiers FTW lolz!

Kurupt~

[edit]-Oh yea, pikes and skirms don't get shotten up in 30 seconds. With forward barracks cranking out skirms, the next 5 will be there shortly~ I think running from minutemen is better, and just picken them off with skirms. Then go back in with 10 skirms, 8 pikes, and more building

[This message has been edited by Kurupt_06 (edited 01-28-2006 @ 12:51 PM).]

posted 01-28-06 07:00 PM EDT (US)     23 / 29  
@ Ceres: This is a tactic vs rushes. When you play vs ottoman you can be 98%sure they will try a rush, with or without fwd rax. All other nations can also do this. Spanish mass heavy infantery, russian nader rush etc...
If you wait till you have collected the 700 wood crates the game will be almost over if they enemy rushed you.
If you really want to turtle you have to have the wall up when his first troops arrive. This is NEVER possible if you get 700 wood shipment after advance.

About that FF thingy: I want a proof! Give us a replay that shows you reaching Fortress at 6:30 plus having defeated a hard enemy rush.

About the defence/attack with the Dutch when using this tactic: It does include raiding. I am not talking about big fights. Not raiding with your age2 skirimishers means loosing a big dutch advantage. When doing so you will need something to protect your skirms.

Quote:

Not questioning the whole strategy,but this part: Does it neccessary to finish the wall at 4:30?Is it specifically for Otto 5-10 jannissary rush?...In other words,is it neccessary to ship in 300 wood to build a Great wall that early,is it neccessary to do it on ALL (anit-rush) senarios?


The 300 wood card is always needed vs rushes, no matter against which nation you play.
You can only use 2 villagers to build the wall if you think the enemy won't attack that early (so you are right, my given build is vs the fastest possible thing: An early ottoman rush with fwd rax).
posted 01-28-06 10:24 PM EDT (US)     24 / 29  
No good otto will janny rush you as dutch, lol.
posted 01-29-06 02:04 AM EDT (US)     25 / 29  

Quote:

If you really want to turtle you have to have the wall up when his first troops arrive. This is NEVER possible if you get 700 wood shipment after advance.
...
The 300 wood card is always needed vs rushes, no matter against which nation you play.
You can only use 2 villagers to build the wall if you think the enemy won't attack that early (so you are right, my given build is vs the fastest possible thing: An early ottoman rush with fwd rax).


Don't forget you have 500 wood age politician,and you always can advance earlier with 15 or 16 villagers in discovery.

Let's have a check at the FASTEST rush in the game:Usually otto advance at 3:5x-4:0x(very rare they can do it earlier,that must be a BIG food treasure and you'll know it...),foward rax up(if they do so) 4:1x-4:2x(2 foward villagers),first batch of Jannies out 4:4x-4:5x.

If you age at 4:1x with 13+3 villagers(have to say it might be difficult if you put 6 villagers mining gold at the start...),still enough time to finish the wall with some wood you cut during transition plus some from age politician.Just think you use 3 card villagers working from 2:4x-4:1x,you get 12x-135 wood,you need 170 wood for walls right?You still have enough wood left for a barrack and a house which you need for skirmishers.

And if you do age at 4:1x or even earlier(not rare),it is not too difficult to have 5 skirmishers out around 5 mins,5 more 30 seconds later...I doubt any decent Otto will do a typical jannissary rush on you if he noticed you age soon after him...does a Great wall absolutely neccessary under such circumstances?

So,don't apply a NEVER/always on your assumptions,things can be done in other ways.


[This message has been edited by Plebus (edited 01-29-2006 @ 02:21 AM).]

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