Spellings everyone must learn:
Cuirassier
Gendarme
Landsknecht
Jaegers
Oprichnik
Bear (lol, I hope you know this one)

Also, just because a unit is good late game doesn't make it OP. Most games end (as in one player has definitely lost, whether the opponent has hunted every last unit yet is irrelevant) in age3 (occasionally 4). Rarely do games go age5 where cuirassier become what so many people call OP.

[This message has been edited by LembasBread (edited 01-30-2006 @ 01:15 AM).]

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Yes, and as one will see if they watch the rec even at that point in the game, they arent op, they are simply a good unit. Many units can counter them pop and cost efficiantly.

[This message has been edited by Mokon (edited 01-30-2006 @ 00:59 AM).]

I kind of have to agree here. I have never found the cuirassier itself to be particularly overpowered(except one time when i was playing german and my gold mines kept getting extinguished by cuirassier raids). I've played against them and I've used them andthe only problem I really have with them is that the french economy makes producing them too easy. Its not that they're more cost effective than their counters, it's that the french player can afford so many of them that you can't usually produce enough counter units as one of the bottom 4 civs. Anything counters anything else in sufficient quantities and the french economy supplies sufficient quantities. What's odd is that it doesn't really supply sufficient quantities for other french units(no amount of french skirms produced will be able to counter someone massing hussars) so perhaps the cuirassier, although counterable, is still too good.

Wow your a madman..3 hours^^. I dont think cuirs are OP that much..i will say the french villagers are overpowered tho. Most of the "Cuirs are OP" come from people who have played long games and say "OMG 50 Cuirs owns all". They do have good counters..and ya i agree cuirs are too powefull at raiding.

Quoted from TheZappa:

I've had longer "real" games that weren't staged to test units. This was back in AoM though (faster paced imo so it would translate to even longer in aoe3)

What I want to know is why the French economy is so strong late game. I had 99 vils and I fishing ship boomed using schooners (as Spain) and was still outecoed right throughout. Curaiseers can be cost effectively countered, but they have so much money to begin with that it doesn't matter if it is cost effective or not, they just keep spamming them and eventually it wore me down especially when he bought in skirms. I could repel the forces (barely) but they left me with nothing to cunterattack.

i don't think curissiers are op either i was versing some one and he massed curriesers i was also using french but i never got curissers. So anyway i had imp halbedeirs he had imp curriesers i absolutly slaughtered his curissiers and had 50%or more of my halbedeirs left nad that was without any micro. But then he got lots of cannons and started slaughtering my guys i cold have beat him with some culverins but i had to go have dinner and we where losing anyway but the point of my story is that curisiers are not good against there counters.

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Make sure you upgrade your economy and get trade routes ect.

The problem is that the French eco is so strong that if they get gendarme Cuirassier before you can upgrade your goons its gg. They will slaughter your army in seconds with only losing a few units.

You put the Cuirassier on a weaker economy they are fine. I think that this has been proven already. I have np with the unit itself.

Just accept what Mokon says, lol. He's better than anyone here, you included, so read his posts and Learn, he is trying to help you. :P

Also try to visit other forums than hg, this is the only forum I've ever been to where most people think cuirs are op (mil-wise at least).

their splash damage is far to great.

they can be countered, but they are OP. If used with the proper upgrades (French get 3 cards for cav upgrades) + Native trib upgrades (hp/atk + 20% speed) from tribes such as the ones on GP they are unstopable.

Its a 1vs1 game they are not that bad since you will rarely get to age IV, nevermind age V, but in large team games once a French player gets to age V he/she has a huge advantage.

The underlying strength of the cuirassiers that you didn't test here was the ability for a single stable/fort to put 15 pop units of military on the board in 40 seconds. Yes, I know you can build additional buildings, but that takes time and resources, too, and whatever you can do the French player can also duplicate.

There is also my other point (from my thread) that everyone agrees the ability to micro owns this game. By having more pop count in fewer units, you are able to more effectively micro your units with fewer actions from your fingers.

This same logic is also why mercs are so powerful in games. The point here is that Curassiers are almost too powerful to be normal troops, they act more like mercenaries (although not quite).

I've been playing the ottos a lot lately, trying to prove they can be a potent booming population. Last night I aged TO imperial in 12 minutes and had 2 factories on the ground within 14 (with bombards rolling at 15 minutes to backup the falconets from aging and streams of janissaries from my lovely economy). I was being raided by hussars/crossbowmen while this was happening. When he rolled in with skirms/falconets, I had janis(with combat)/bombards. Guess who won?

Against intermediate players, I've found it's tough to go imperial without suffering from raids. My cheeze is the efficent use of a fort for defending my economy and Spahi. 5 Spahi in age3 is RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, just FYI. I can hold off almost anything that comes at me within 12 minutes with just a fort and 5 spahi (and the occasional minutemen). What makes it even more hilarious is when I get enough wood treasures that I can ship abus guns instead of wood/boat going to age3.

The point I'm making here is that Curassiers are almost as powerful as Spahi, and Spahi are mercenaries you can buy with food. The point is.. the french get an endless supply of 'almost mercs' and the things that make mercs so efficient also apply (though on a lesser scale) to Curassiers.

I find it's VERY difficult to deal with the French Fast Fortress/Mercantilism that shows up with 11(4+2+5) Curassiers and 2 Falconets, or 6 Cuirassiers, 5 Dragoons, and 2 Falconets in <10 mins.

EDIT: But thanks for your time testing, it was well spent and I value the results. It also bolsters my opinion that micro/training efficiency of Cuirassiers is the underlying advantage they offer.

[This message has been edited by TechnoButt (edited 01-30-2006 @ 12:59 PM).]

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ROFL, please watch the recorded game b4 you start saying that... those where one of the many varibles we tested

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While yes you are correct the tests did not look at this, it really is moot. If you have enof cuis to make 15 cuis in 40 seconds u obviously are in late game... at which point your enemy will have many raqs and stables.

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Yes stronger units benifit more from micro, however while it is still very important to micro with melee units ranged units benifit much more.

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A couple of goons or BR take care of them, and while of course with a fort they are strong that is true with basicly any unit.

Falcs with a meatshield will counter that tho.

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Build HALBS! If someone is just massing cuis it is extremely easy to counter. Microed goons or massed halbs pwn em! You will be laughing all the way to the bank. And yes of course mixed with skirms they become better but just mix in falcs. That was the point of this game I posted... Watch the rec and it will become evident they can be countered cost effiently.

Mokon, I think you missed my point. I'm not building 15 Cuirassiers in 40 seconds, I building 15 pop units of military (in the form of 5 Cuirassiers) in 40 seconds from my single stables, which is by definition early game (usually about 9 minutes into the game.. just after FF).

In that same 40 seconds, for example, the best Spain can do is build 10 pop units (in the form of 5 hussars or 5 lancers).

That same principle applies if you look at mulitple stables, later game, etc. The possibility of training Cuirassiers (and arguably, this same logic applies to War Wagons, although war wagons take better micro sklls). In other words, the trend doesn't break down until the game gets to a 'no rush' type situation where you are streaming units from multiple build facilities.

In the situation of resource wealth and multiple build facilities, the advantage presents as the ability to micro better in large scale battles (because you can control more population value in military with fewer player actions, because of the 'stronger' units that represent more population.. ie, the same as mercs).

My suggestion to reduce this inherent advantage in trainable units that take up more population slots, is to limit the training queue size by POPULATION count, not by unit count.

In other words. You should be able to train 15 pop1 units in a queue, 10 pop 2 units in a queue, and 5 pop 3 units in a queue.

I also think this is why falconet rushes are so strong. They are 4 pop units, so you can translate resources into 20! population units of military in 45 seconds. I think that is why falconet rushes are so successful. I watched a game recently between you and Black_Ice_Spain (french vs spanish), and this VERY principle of translating resources into military might quickly and efficiently is one of the reasons you almost beat him in your initial attack (you hit with 5 falconets+curs+goons - best I recall). It was nice that your meatshield was cavalry, but it could just as easily (and possibly more effectively in that situation) have been musketeers or halberds.. anything you could ship while you were building the falconets.

Does that make more sense?

Techno: that's a French econ problem, not a building effeciency problem. Are you going to complain that Brits can make 25 pop worth of falconets a cycle?

Cuirs are not OP, france econ is.

There will always be noobs that don't believe cuir are balanced.

I am a long-time believer that cuir are balanced, and I still stand by that.

Personally I think they should have a x.8 damage against cav, and that is it. They really aren't that bad, and right now I have 0 trouble countering them at vet level, and at gardener it is much harder but easily doable.

Someone plz remind me to never rush the French again >.<

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Ok i miss read you but the same thing applies... That isnt going to really effect much at all. Early in the game even the best ppl arnt going to have constant production of cuis, u are going to have down time in the stables It plain old doenst really matter. Just because u can fill up 15 pop in 40 rather then 10 doesnt mean much at all. woot woot he built a few more then me. Wait 40 more seconds, and I have 10 more pop while he probably wont due to the cost of his cuis. I raraly in mid game que more then 3 up at a time they are so expensive.

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There is no such thing as a falconet rush... it would be a boom....

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Nope... Just cause I can fill pop a little faster doesnt really make that much of a difference. Cost is what really matters, and Cuis certainly are not OP.

Here I have an idea show me a game which demostrates ur principle and I will explain why it isnt demostrated there.

the ablity to make 5 cuirs at once is slightly op, it means you can save on the number of stables you need to have.

10 cuirs (2 stable) = 15 hussars (3 stable)

to make enough hussar against cuir at once you need 1 extra stable.

10 cuirs (2 stable) = 30 rods (6 rax)

to make enough rods to counter cuirs at once you need 4 extra barrack.

if battle pushes forward and back a lot and you build barracks/stables when ever you push forward or getting pushed back, then you need to build many extra barrack/stables compared to french.

It is rather easy to 'rush' an opponent with falconets and not boom. All you have to do is fast fortress, ship 1000 gold, and mine the 1000 gold you're normally use for mercantilism.

You can have 5+2 falconets (5 built, 2 shipped) on the ground in roughly 9 minutes. I don't know about you, but 7 falconets entering my base <10min certainly feels like a rush, especially if it has any company (ie, native rush, shipped cavalry, pikemen from spain, etc).

I'm not saying Cuirassiers are OP. I'm saying their primary benefits are the speed with which you can translate resources into to military popultion units combined with the reduced attention necessary to control units of higher pop count. When the discrete unit of control is a larger population count (and the game is balanced by population count), the 'larger' discrete unit has inherent efficiency from queue production and from micromanagement benefits.

For example.. if you could train 15 Grenadiers in the time it took you to trade 5 falconets, don't you think more people would play grenadiers?

Another example, if you could train 15 ruyters in the time it takes to train 5 curassiers, don't you think ruyters would benefit?

Would you rather have 15 ruyters on the board in three training cycles, or would you rather have 5 war wagons in one training cycle? Why? In theory, they are balanced in every way other than the queue size limitations and the difficulty of microing 15 units instead of 5.

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9 mins into the game isnt a rush by any stretch.... Yes one has to attack at some point but thats just how war works. A rush hits around 5-6 mins.

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Well then if they arnt op whats the big deal? Different units play differently, just simple game design. The thing is as a french player I really just reserve cuis for raids, otherwise id much rather have goons and cannons.

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No, that change is moot. How often do u build 5 falcs at once? Almost never is the answer. cost is what matters the most...

When I was 9 years old I had a 23 hour game versus two allied "Hardest" AI players. It was spaced over 6 days. I won.

P.S.-I also had many shorter victories at that difficulty level.

[This message has been edited by EmperorPatrick (edited 01-31-2006 @ 04:10 PM).]

Interesting points TechnoButt.

I'll maintain that I do not think Cuirassiers are overpowered until large, late game battles. In 1v1 this may not happen very often, if ever. But in team games this can happen more often.

http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameStats.aspx?loc=en-US&GameID=b2a661d0-867b-904e-a0b5-8a9ab9dc0d12&md=ZS_Supremacy

I never made it to imperial so my pikes were a level below the cuirassiers we were facing. Still, with 1000 pikes, I killed only 247 enemy units. Building cannon didn't help me since the cuirs would defeat them much quicker than I could defeat enemy cannons.

Our team won simply because one of the other players (Diced) quit. fleury81's econ was incredible and easily allowed him to build many cuirassiers. When cuirassiers win a big battle they can move on and quickly do econ damage. Their counters aren't as effective at doing econ damage after a victory.

Late game Cuirassiers because of their strength and speed combined with the french econ are hard to counter and then follow up the battle by doing econ damage to the french player.

Let me rephrase.

You can build 3 falconets, which I suggest is the number that *you* most often build, starting with 1-2 and adding the third before the queue is complete. Occasionally going to 4 if you can hit your market in time to adjust the resources.

In the same 45 seconds, with the same 1500 resources, tell me how you can translate resources to the board as quickly and efficiently?

Grenadier, queue of 5, is only 900 of your resources (although, 30 seconds of BT). YOu'd have to queue a second batch, and wait 15 extra seconds (total time) for the additional 3-4 to train and translate your 1500 resources into military power.

I'm not arguing symantics with you about wether or not an attack at 9mins is a rush. I think the majority of players (not neccessarily the cream of the crop, play every single RTS game that hits the genre, 500+ played games players, would feel that an attack that hits quickly and with devastating force prior to when you would expect it is a rush).

Unless I native rush I rarely attack in 9 minutes, and I'd like to see more of your replays where you actually enter and attack the enemy base in less than 9 minutes without a native rush. I think most of us consider FF/Mercantilism a rush tactic, trading 2-3 minutes of game time for a vastly superior force to the T2 rush.

I know when I see 5-7 falconets at the 9 minute mark, I'm like wow, that's fast (isn't that the whole point of a rush?).

My current strat that I'm trying to tweak for better players is an Ottoman FF/FI, where I'm trying to defend through fortress with fort overwatch+spahi to hi imperialism at ~12-13 mins and drop a pair of factories to do a bombard rush.

I did this recently in a game and hit with 25 Janis+5bombards+2falconets at the 14 minute mark, which is a game deciding attack. I was being raided by xbows and hussars (although by not a very efficient player).

He also had the misfortune of walking his merc+falconet army into my massed troops and I got the first shot off wiht bombards (which ultimately decided the battle and the game).

I'm not sure that there's a thin black line that determines what is a rush, what is a turtle, and what is a fast fortress. I see them more as a continuum with suggestive grey areas.