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Topic Subject: Russian strat: Livestock turtle
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posted 03-08-06 01:44 PM EDT (US)   
Russian livestock turtle

This strat or guide is built upon the following ideas and suppositions. Note that psychology plays a role as well.

-You donīt want the enemy to get the impression that you are turtling. Heavy turtling only discourages the enemy from attacking "lightly", so he will wait he has 5+ cannons to break through the fort, etc. While 2-3 culverins could remedy this, I am looking for a more dynamic, fun, and subtle approach.

-A turtle loses to a boom normally. To put in plainly, you get a fort for defense and the enemy gets a TC for vill production. Yes, we pretty much only see FFs and rushes, but that might change. I think with this strat you can boom well, too.

-An enemy that is ahead, with the game under control, is likely to ger more "relaxed" than a guy who is fighting for his life, trying to get back into the game. I dunno why, but it happens.

-On the same line, itīs hard to face an enemy that plays so erratic, and enemy from which you donīt know what to expect.

-One of a turtlerīs worst nightmare -at least non-dutch is having to build plantations while the enemy walks from gold mine to gold mine with the whole map for him. This is one of the reasons why I think Port arenīt the new cream of the crop some people want it to be. And also a point where the Russians have some say for this type of strat: oprichniki, blockhouses, cheaper halbs, Ransack card. The enemy might have map control, but make him sweat for it.

-The flow of the game and mmentum. A FF doesnīt look that good after the first waves of unit and merc shipments. This is also related to the point about map control. If you survive the first onslaughts you are in a good position to win the game. It just goes with the flow of the game. Some FFers go as far as to stop making vills for a few minutes after reaching fortress age. A bit too drastic IMO.

-Pioneers: an underrated card. Most times I donīt even bother to garrison the vills. All in all, it can save you some vill lives thoughout the game. I prefer this card to the colonial militia one, because itīs more subtle =) I find that they help me a lot more fighting than as simple resource gatherers who die to any weak threat. It also has a psychological aspect...how many times does one fight non-french vills?

-The livestock. This point is also related to the the prior point about upgraded vills. If you vills are fighting...well you lose villie seconds,and you need to make up for it with faster gathering -or more vills, duh. In this case, the livestock allows me to come back. What would be the alternative? Fight with vills and then task them to a mill?

-If your opponent attacks with 5+ cannons in early fortress you are in trouble. If I see 5+ cannons I think: 1-the opponent countered me well, 2-I deserve to lose, and 3-he knew I was turtling. The key is number 3, make sure you harass with the 5 cossack card or with 5 muskets in colonial to give the enemy something to think about. The supposition here is that a FFer will attack with asap, normally with the 2 falcs card. You can take care of 2 falcs, but not vs 5+ so early.

-You defend but you attack. The FFers have this strange habbit of not protecting their vills far way from home, namely hunters and gold miners. The idea is to harass when possible, with hackapells and/or opris.

-The goal beyond 15-20 minutes is to turn the game into a bunch of skirmishes and guerrilla warfare all over the map. Many times I donīt even go industrial.

-The unit combo of choice is muskets+oprichiniki, as weak as that sounds. They compliment each other well, and are efficient economically -they arenīt gold heavy.

Gettin started

I am not a fan of strict build orders, so you wonīt find one here. Instead Iīll go through the "overall" steps to get you going.

-At first you gather food like normal. Go after treasures, etc. Most wanted are wood treasures. The first real decision comes when clicking to colinial. Check the enemyīs deck and scout his base at 3-4 minutes. If you donīt predict a rush, you can go lighter on wood during the transition to colonial: you need the market and the livestock pen. If you expect a rush, go a bit more heavy on wood: youīll want a blockhouse, market, and the pen -delay the pen a bit if necessary.

-Look to age up with 17 vills. Sometimes itīs possible to go with 20, getting more woodies earlier. You are a bit vulnerable, but, most importantly, the cows will start to fatten later. Donīt bother grabbing a TP. You want the 4-cow politician. Get the pen upgrade asap.

-In regards to your cards early game: donīt choose deck until halfway through colonial upgrade. This will make the enemy think. If you have a variation of the strat with the polar explorer card for treasure-heavy maps, by all means go that route and donīt follow the prior step. I find it just throws off my rythm, I am a simple mind, I am slow, and I mess up easily.
So, the first card...an important decision. You have 2 choices: pioneers and stockyards. If you expect a rush, then get pioneers. Else I would go with stockyards. Note: if you found 1-2 xp treasures, try to get both! Pioneers or not, you want both market upgrades for the vills. Some shots from vills to a falconet can mean a TC stays up.
Oh, if you found some sheep or llama, aging up with 400 wood politician instead of 4 cows is an option.

-In case you are rushed, try to get the blockhouse up close to the TC, even better behind it, build a house, and send the 13-strelet card. Note that you normally have a shipment ready for when you reach colonial.

-Else, you have a few choices. You can send the 5-cossack card, so the enemy canīt just gather safely without protection. Or you can send 700 gold and launch yourself to fortress age if you have lots of huntables around. Or you can also send the 700 food with the same purpose, on maps like sonora. Or you can send 700 wood for a more solid colonial, to get up 1-2 blockhouses, 1-2 houses, an ATP, etc. You can also send the 7 cows card.
Usually though, what I end up doing is sending 5 cossacks and 7 cows as the first 2 cards in colonial, in no particular order. The third card is 700 gold to get me to fortress. 3 is the average number of cards I send in colonial.

Again, this is very open for variations, I am just offering a guideline. Age up with the faster-aging politician. If you donīt like this, go for the cossacks.
Also I suggest not getting strelets, just vs heavy infantry, etc. My win% has gone up significantly since I stopped using strelets.
As far as maket upgrades, I am content with the first upgrades for wood and gold gathering. I get hunting dogs if there are lots of huntables. Anyway, I research the wood upgrade as soon as I get the market up during the disc-colonial transition, no matter what I am against.

Fortress Age

There you are, in the fortress age. 80% of the times early fortress is the key part of the game. The goal with this strat now? Survive. Do anything there is in your hands to survive at this point. Sacrifice vills to take out a falconet, suicide muskets so a TC doesnīt go down, focus fire with vills on pikes/landsknekts, etc. Everything that lets you stay in the game is valid. Iīll try to give some tips to make it happen:

-You want 2 blockhousesat least when you reach fortress. Upgrade to veteran muskets, and pump some of them. Cows shoudl be ready by now. Put 6 vills on 1 cow, and pump 10 muskets asap. Donīt stop making villagers. Your vills should be distributed more or less evenly among all 3 resources, You want to have some wood ready, for another blockhouse or houses, but you also want to have some gold, so you donīt get caught with your pants down when you need a couple culverins or a set of mercs. And you also want to have some food, for vills/muskets: you do not rely solely on the livestock for food, you need another food source...5-6 vills on berries hunting, or a mill near the pen -so you just transfer the vills from one to another.

-Try to spread out your base to cover 1 extra gold mine and/or a forest. The more spread out you are, the better. With this reasoning, my first card in fortress is normally 1000 wood, helps me a lot to build a TC and houses/blockhouses.

-Worst case scenario: a FF has just taken out your main base. Resigning looks like an option. Donīt! Move your villagers, build another blockhouse, move the cows, flee to your second TC, and raid the enemy villagers. This is what you have prepared for, you can come back thanks to the livestock. Obviously, if the fortress attack was flawless and you are left in shambles and above all, with many vills lost, then just resign. However, most times you have an option. I have come back with this not 1-2 times, but more like 4-5, losing my main TC and a few times playing without TC for a a couple minutes. A FFer doesnīt have that strong of an eco!

-The 6 opris shipment. Use it to take out artillery IF unprotected. Else just raid with them. Your buildings are going down? tough luck, but never fight with these 6 opris, use them to to make the enemy think about his own safety at home.

Late fortress

You are now in late fortress, the moment you start to make an impact. Advanced arsenal card is sent, fencing school is sent: you can start puting the harm on your enemy. Some things you are sure of: he wonīt like 5 buffed up muskets creating in 10 seconds for 282 food and 94 gold, and neither will he like opris with 82 siege damage -cavalry combat card- with 1.3x damage to buildings. Be all around the map harassing. Remember AoC? this is closest you will ever get in Age3 to hussar spam. Get the ransack card that gives muskets an extra 6 siege damage and that just sucks for the enemy.

Dragoons are the only thing that could counter this, but in reality they donīt, since you just move the opris behind some muskets, and focus fire with the latter. If the enemy reaches industrial age, so what? you can take out heavy cannons with opris. Ok, not if they are supported, but remember you are all over the map? The enemy army better be spread around the map also, if he wants to save his eco. Itīs easy to just focus heavy cannons with 5 opris as they walk.

Deck

[PNG, (141.98 KB)]

Closing comments

The good point about this start is that isnīt even perfected, you can vary it as you please and keep the general view intact. You could use colonial militia, or the improved buildings card. Also, I know this isnīt the end-all strat, but still an effective way -for me, at least- of playing the Russians, and thatīs saying something. I have gone up 150 points since the patch, hitting 2025 rating which was just unthinkable for me, using all sorts of livestock strats. This one is the best of them all, and muskets/opris the best unit combo for Russians.

But most importantly, that strat is just hella fun, I invite you to try it out. Hope you enjoyed reading, Iīll post reps asap.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg
Replies:
posted 03-08-06 02:44 PM EDT (US)     1 / 34  
i know you like sucky cards but i will still ask..

why dont you use that upgrade that gives +10% for opri/cossack/strelets? i thought it was the best unit upgrade card russian has.

you dont use unique church? is that because you only upgrade muskts and nothing else?

is 7 hackapell worth it? personally i'd get manchu since i think russian dont lack good melee cav but lack good anti cav. which is another reason i like unitque church - 9 guard goons at a good price

you dont go industrial at all, and you dont really attack before late age3, so what you do to brit/port walled industrial with musk/falc or musk/heavy cannon combination?

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 03-08-2006 @ 02:53 PM).]

posted 03-08-06 02:47 PM EDT (US)     2 / 34  
sounds very interesting. i would like to see those reps. i would try it but i dont have the cards that you have. just a question what is your actual success rate with this strategy?

oh and 1 more question. how do you come up with these strats. you made more before and they just seem... interesting. i dont know any other word to say it. messing with peoples minds is also cool cus i had it done to me. i see atp with native treaties and i choose my native deck and the guy goes ff and owns me with mercs...

1 more thing... this was the strat you used when you told us about ("story of a great game") when you beat that spanish player?

[This message has been edited by MisterDie (edited 03-08-2006 @ 02:58 PM).]

posted 03-09-06 05:50 AM EDT (US)     3 / 34  
Russian unique church card, for 1v1, is overrated IMO. No point to all those expensive upgrades when you need to concentrate on some 2-3 types of units.
As for boyards, I have used it before a lot, but not with this strat. I am not going strelets or cossacks.

The hackapells are kinda disppointing in most circumstances, but not with this strat, where sometimes you just need cavalry to take out cannons and raid. Or even skirmshers. They are more of a "shocking" type of shipment: I donīt send them unless I need them at this very moment when a fight is taking place, possibly near a blockhouse or a TC. In this sense, itīs a great shipment.

I havenīt played any brits or ports doing defensive industrial, so I canīt comment. Iīd probably die, though, and would have to think of other strats to combat them.

MisterDie, I have been more succesfull with this strat than with any other I have tried with Russians, going up 150 points in ratings since the new patch came out.
Yes, this was the strat I used in that game =))))


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg
posted 03-09-06 08:15 AM EDT (US)     4 / 34  
What're the point of ransack and 6 grenadiers?

I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 09:26 AM EDT (US)     5 / 34  
Ransack makes muskets support the opris in building destruction much better.

6 grenadiers card is there to combat mass skirms. Not only are skirmishers bunched up for the AoE damage, but mixed among the muskets the granadiers absorb a lot of damage, thx to 50% ranged resistance and no bonus damage against for skirms.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg
posted 03-09-06 10:01 AM EDT (US)     6 / 34  
Couldn't massed skirms just hit and run your grens with ease?

Also, at what time do you reach fortress normally?


I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 11:03 AM EDT (US)     7 / 34  
its a nice unique strat, think im going used it, combined with some other strats
posted 03-09-06 01:45 PM EDT (US)     8 / 34  
Well sometimes you have to stand and fight, if you are defending a position etc. Out in the open I just wouldnīt fight if they have range advantage. If there are cannons involved etc I dont think thereīs much hit and running going on, so the grens still do their purpose.

I reach fortress at around 10:30. I try to get it down to 10 vs Spain lately.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg
posted 03-09-06 01:59 PM EDT (US)     9 / 34  
6 nadier shipment is one of the better shipments russian has.

not that it is great itself, but it worth over 1k. your alternatives like 4 cav archers or 6 cossack worth way less..lol

unjugon, you use nadier and muskts, and you use hackapells, which can be replaced with cossack, 7 hacakpell = 2200 gold = 15 cossacks.

so that is 3 vet units. sending unique church would save you 300, and you get to use the 9 guard goons...

not that you have to use it, its just personally i think you still benefit from it.

posted 03-09-06 02:46 PM EDT (US)     10 / 34  
If six grens if one of their best shipments, I'd hate to see their terrible shipments.

So, if you age with 20 vills and 4 cows, how will you be able to defend against a FF that involves you being attacked with strong units at 7:30-7:45 with more on the way?

Have any recs?


I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 02:59 PM EDT (US)     11 / 34  

Quote:

If six grens if one of their best shipments, I'd hate to see their terrible shipments.

that is one of the biggest reason of russion being up.

their best shipments are:

higlander
manchu
2 falc
6 nadier
6 opri

all other age3 unit shipments suck.

posted 03-09-06 03:08 PM EDT (US)     12 / 34  
I have never been attacked so early...must be playing bad players.

I only use the 6 grenadier from the shipment, I donīt make any more =)


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg
posted 03-09-06 03:31 PM EDT (US)     13 / 34  
LOL. i dont either...

but i do when i am running out of gold.

1 falc = 5 nadier gold wise.

good thing about nadier is that they dont die to culverin

posted 03-09-06 03:46 PM EDT (US)     14 / 34  
Well if your rate is oevr 2k it's unlikely you've been facing bad players, unless you've played like 200 games vs noobs. Anyway, with Spanish, one can easily get to fort at 6:45 with a forward outpost and ahve 2 cannons + 10 pikes by 7:25 and in your base shortly thereafter due to the forward outpost.

I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 04:43 PM EDT (US)     15 / 34  
I havenīt yet beaten a 2k+ spanish FFer, if thatīs your question. As a matter of fact, I reached 2k just recently, winning a few 1900+ Spanish FFers with this strat. Players like: WW_Butcher, Lucky_ass, and a few others. If you donīt think they are good enough, tough luck.

2 cannons+10 pikes at 7:30? that gets beaten by upgraded vills, no need for even militia. Now, the merc shipment afterwards is another matter. The 6 lancers I donīt fear either.

A good Spanish player doesnīt go fortress before 7 mins as far as I know -save on maps like carolina-, because else heīll have no eco for the merc shipments that are the ones that end the game. Most will go with a 8 min fortress age, much more dangerous.

PS: I donīt think grenadiers are useless -tho a bit overpriced they are, I am starting to like that shipment.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg

[This message has been edited by unjugon (edited 03-09-2006 @ 04:46 PM).]

posted 03-09-06 05:10 PM EDT (US)     16 / 34  
I think the 2 TPs + Fort is pretty bad imo, because it's incredibly easy to see it coming, and it's slow.

With a 6:45 fortress, you have 23-24 vills, and it's much faster. If you attack 2 cannons + 10 pikes with upgraded vills, you will have immense losses. WIth your strat, you will have what, 20, maybe 23 vills tops? It'll take a lot to destroy 2 cannons and 10 pikes, and there will most likely be highlanders or lancers coming right after.

The 6:45 fort with 1 TP is a great strat. Ever watch any of Love_'s replays? He uses this in a lot of them.


I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 05:22 PM EDT (US)     17 / 34  

Quote:

With a 6:45 fortress, you have 23-24 vills,

correct me if i am wrong, did you mean reaching fortress at 6:45 with 23~24 vils!?

posted 03-09-06 05:24 PM EDT (US)     18 / 34  
Yes. In age 1 you ship 3 vills, in age 2 you ship 700 gold, build 2 vills, and ship 5 vills. You'll have 18 before the 5 vills arrive. If you made a TP in discovery, you'll have plenty of shipments heading into fort.

I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 05:25 PM EDT (US)     19 / 34  
Again, if I play people of the quality of Love_, Iīd lose, no matter the strat. You have to compare this strat to the other alternatives. Dunno why dish my strat like that when I am telling you I have gone up 150 points with it beating people -including Spanish players- who I was unable to beat before.

Also, youīd be surprised at how fast pikes die to upped vills.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg

[This message has been edited by unjugon (edited 03-09-2006 @ 05:27 PM).]

posted 03-09-06 05:29 PM EDT (US)     20 / 34  
It's not that I'm dissing your strat, I just cannot picture it working. Do you have any recs?

Also, by upped vills, do you mean pioneers or great coat or both?


I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 05:36 PM EDT (US)     21 / 34  
I get both, pioneers and both market upgrades.

If you know of a Russian strat that works vs a flawless Spanish FF let us all know.


My blog, for WC3 and AoE3 strats and articles:
http://unjugon.blogspot.com/
My stats:
http://ratings.myllclan.com/prt/SA/1/TkC/unjugon.jpg
posted 03-09-06 05:41 PM EDT (US)     22 / 34  
There really aren't any, which is why I am criticizing this. I'd love to play Russia again, but I'm sick of facing a FF every time.

I am asking so many questions in hopes you have answers, because this would be very nice if it beat the Spanish FF.


I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 06:38 PM EDT (US)     23 / 34  
minor question. what is so great about the spanish ff? i always hear so much talk about it. is it the fastest? best economy for a ff? most units? anyone care to explain?
posted 03-09-06 07:13 PM EDT (US)     24 / 34  
Fast shipments + good shipments = great FF. Spanish can age with 10 pike or 4 hussars, then ship any of the following: 14 pikes, 10 rods, 2 cannons, 11 highlanders, 7 stradiots, 13 swiss pikes, 6/4 lancers...pikes + lancers + cannons pretty much beats everything.

I am not senDing sublimInal mEssages to NOOBS

"[A] Russian is raiding you. Let's say [you] go to age two in four minutes. He's already raiding you. Your outpost wagons are smoked. You got nothin'." - Merkinball

posted 03-09-06 07:13 PM EDT (US)     25 / 34  
in this game, fast > everything else.

spanish is the fastest.


======


I dont understand this psychology, if you think spanish FF is unbeatable and has given up on trying to beat it, then dont play against spanish with russian.

instead, every russian thread i see the same people say "oh this strat wont stand a chance against spanish FF, you are wasting russian players time...."

give it a break.

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