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Topic Subject: Bank Spank 2.0
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posted 05-11-06 02:20 AM EDT (US)   
The Bank Spank I created a while back (link) was designed to capitalize on Dutch's strengths (banks) while shoring up its weakness (FF). It did so, and was the best bank-boom strat I knew at the time. I beat players that were better than me and was very satisfied with it overall. Unfortunately, it was a pain in the ass to perform, mistake-prone, and didn't work too great vs a good boomer.

Bank Spank 2.0 is a drastic improvement over 1.0. Gone are the annoying walls that made base building about as fun as wiping your ass. Say goodbye to the late age-II time that made stopping a rush almost impossible. Say hello to:

* 6:55 age-III with 2 banks, 18 vils and 2 shipments
* A fort up by 8:30, 4 towers following
* 6 banks by 11:30


******** THE STRAT *********

Note: all times were taken from an actual recorded online game, so they're all real!

Age I:
* Build 6 vils from the TC
* Play no cards in age I

Age II 4:10 -- 500f
During age-up, put 5 vils on gold, 8 on food.
* Card 1: 700w
* Card 2: 700g
* Collect the 500f crate
* Make 5 more vils, sending them to gold or crates
* Build 2 banks with the 700w

Age III 6:55 -- Exiled Prince
During age-up, put 12 on wood, 6 on food, 0 on gold
* Card 3: Fort
* Card 4: 4 towers
* Build a market and research gang saws
* Buy wood/food at the market
* Build 2 more banks
* Build a church
* Card 5: Religous Freedom
* Build 2 more banks for a total of 6
* Build an artillery range and train 2-4 culvs
* Train halbs/ruyters at the fort

End result:
At 11:30 you will have an unraidable, 55 vil eco, the ability to spam gold-heavy units, and defenses strong enough to allow *you* to decide when you want to attack. You have no military at all, but usually you don't need any! They will either leave you alone and boom (smartest choice for them) or ramp up for a late-fortress attack, which will most likely fail since you'll have military by then.

What you do from here is of course up to you. I personally have the most success with first raiding with 5 Waardgelders, then massing troops to about 100 mil pop for defense, then going IV, then getting factories, industrial upgrades, and mortars, then finally pushing out at 200 pop. You may prefer an earlier attack, which is understandable, but you risk falling behind to your opponent's 2 factories.

In either case, raiding on both land and water is an absolute must. I use a different deck for water maps which contains 3 flutes and 4 privateers. Those cards make controlling fishing difficult for your opponent, and may even allow you to fish late-game.


******** NOTES *********

* Use your envoy to find out if they are rushing. If they are, ship 700w, get a rax up, and do whatever it is you like to do for colonial defense. Do not go to fortress right away! Doing so will kill you more often than not. You have plenty of food/gold for skrims, so use it.

* Fort/tower placement is very important. You want to make sure you are covering at least 25 trees. Sometimes this requires a tower off to the side, especially on Great Plains. The fort needs to go close to the TC and banks, and should be the first thing your enemy runs into if attacking. Plan your building placement very carefully because you are most likely going to want 2 mills and a plantation at some point, and these should be behind the fort and close to a tower/TC. Leave room for that.

* This is a beeatch to pull off on Rockies. I wouldn't recommend it. All other maps are fine. My favorites: Pampas, Carolina, Texas, Great Plains (yup), Bayou.

* Other weaknesses include Britain, who will out-boom you, an aggressive Otto, who probably won't let you do this, and natives, which your opponent has free access to because you don't control the map.


******** REPLAYS *********

This is the part of the strat that I worked on the most. I've played about 20 games with different versions of this strat and what I bring to you now are the 3 best recordings from that experience.

Me vs Lastspoon (1980), French, Great Plains
Unharrassed in colonial, I got my best times with this one, but had to build a mill at 9:00 so the banks were built later.

Me vs RookillER (2000), Ports, Pampas
He FF-rushed with ronin/organ and took out 3 banks, 3 vils and 2 towers! By far the most entertaining of the 3.

Me vs volume (1900), German, Saguenay
I broke my own rule going to III against his native rush. I beat that down and resumed the bank spank. He gets to fish and I don't. Very close game.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 05-16-2006 @ 02:31 AM).]

Replies:
posted 05-11-06 02:56 AM EDT (US)     1 / 39  
Sounds good will have to revive my dutch hc and have a crack. Is it important to age with exiled prince, does it put you on the back foot if you instead use halbs politician? I mean you could build one bank and your 18 vills then age up and while ageing get the food and build up the 2nd bank. You will still be in a far better economic positions to most ff'ers so i may try it like.

Good job any way


Me Grimlock no kisser, me king!!
He is right Predacons unite!
Decepticons. Prepare to face, Fortress Maximus

[This message has been edited by sharpe95 (edited 05-11-2006 @ 02:58 AM).]

posted 05-11-06 06:38 AM EDT (US)     2 / 39  
What if you're up against a rusher who spotted and killed your fort wagon?
posted 05-11-06 11:50 AM EDT (US)     3 / 39  
it seems to me that you have that problem with many strats - perhaps avoid getting your fort wagon spotted would be the best idea!
posted 05-11-06 11:58 AM EDT (US)     4 / 39  
yeah just scout and guard your fort wagon and put the foundation when your wagon is there lol.
posted 05-11-06 12:26 PM EDT (US)     5 / 39  
Why use this instead of 3 banks + 23 villagers at 7.30 ?

"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
posted 05-11-06 12:48 PM EDT (US)     6 / 39  

Quote:

Why use this instead of 3 banks + 23 villagers at 7.30 ?


Good question. With 3-bank FF, you get to fortress at 7:30 but only have 1 shipment, so if you want to get 6 banks up by 12:30 you have to sacrifice the 4 towers shipment in favor of religious freedom. Plus, if you went up at 7:30 you won't get the fort built until 9:00, which is too late if you ask me. In other words, 3 banks is too much boom, not enough bang.

agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 05-11-06 03:52 PM EDT (US)     7 / 39  

Quote:

Why use this instead of 3 banks + 23 villagers at 7.30 ?

Because what you just said is impossible on any map other than Carolina??? More like 8 mins for 23 vils...

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 05-11-06 05:05 PM EDT (US)     8 / 39  
nah, im 7:40 with 21/22 vills so i guess you could go 23..btw jaafit, ill watch your replay tomorow and see what i can make of it. I prefer colonial wars anyways but hey, on texas whadya gonna do .
posted 05-11-06 05:17 PM EDT (US)     9 / 39  
Sounds good =) I can't wait to try it. Experimenting with French and Dutch in the last few weeks has brought me down to a 1700 level n00b =( ...tho I have to admit part of that is because I started getting bored playing so I didn't care what I was doing half the time =D

(\__/) This is bunny.
(O.o ) Copy him in your signature to
(> < ) help him conquer the world!
posted 05-11-06 05:30 PM EDT (US)     10 / 39  
quote:
---------------------------------------------------------
Gone are the annoying walls that made base building about as fun as wiping your ass.
---------------------------------------------------------
LMAO

i like the bank spank how it is, only i dont build a big wall around me

EDIT: How do you get the quote thing to come up all cool and over powered like everyone else? i feel i'm missing out


armyballer - Another 3v3, this time my team is winning, (about an hour into it). One of the other team players admits defeat and resigns, then out of no where I get OOS message. I'm pissed, I again log onto agecommunity and see I have been given a LOSE. How did this happen?

AceOfKings - ender_ward hacked into your game and made it go OOS

Unban JamesLock

[This message has been edited by micky_t (edited 05-11-2006 @ 05:31 PM).]

posted 05-11-06 06:13 PM EDT (US)     11 / 39  
interesting ideas here. looks like you took the original idea, and combined a bit of ultimusu's w/ my suggestion of an earlier fortress time in exchange for 1 bank. but im wondering if getting 2-3 more settlers out is worth the 1min later fortress. ill have to watch the rec to see it in action.
posted 05-11-06 06:30 PM EDT (US)     12 / 39  

Interesting... my dutch hc may just be resurected....

this leaves only one thats truly dead... da french...

posted 05-11-06 07:23 PM EDT (US)     13 / 39  

Quote:

EDIT: How do you get the quote thing to come up all cool and over powered like everyone else? i feel i'm missing out

Your asking about the quotes in posts, right? You have to use tags somewhat like html. Copy what you're quoting then in your post do this:

[ quote ] ...the stuff you're quoting... [ / quote ]

minus the spaces

[This message has been edited by EmpireDoja (edited 05-11-2006 @ 07:24 PM).]

posted 05-11-06 07:39 PM EDT (US)     14 / 39  
Watched the games and I'm impressed =D You can still see that the Dutch are UP compared to other civs (French excluded, with them I think they are on-par), but the strat does a very nice balance between turtle and boom in order to give time for the Dutch bank advantage to kick in. I thought that against the Port you would be dead for sure...the ronin are insane with their 120 seige damage (120 x 5 = 600, which means that they take down a bank/fort in 40-45 seconds). Good games, very well played. It is tough to play the Dutch, but your strat I think creates some decent options =D I am yet to try it in game myself, but it has a lot of potential.

(\__/) This is bunny.
(O.o ) Copy him in your signature to
(> < ) help him conquer the world!
posted 05-12-06 03:36 AM EDT (US)     15 / 39  
Yes, the ronin attack was awfully discouraging. I pondered resigning, and started to question this entire strat...
But fortunately the towers and fort were enough to make him leave and although I had lost 3 banks, that's a lot better than losing the equivalent in vils cause you can just rebuild the banks!

Oh and later on those ronin came into play as I was running my Waardgelders through his town. I swear I was thinking... hmmm, he just went to industrial, I wonder if I'll run into his factory wagon... and there it was! Guarded by 4 ronin

Anyway, that's kinda off-topic. I want to report that I played a 2v2 today in which our pike/gren rush mostly failed, but we went III and I played fort/4 towers/religious freedom. (I kinda forgot how to do anything else) It worked beautifully.


agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.

[This message has been edited by jaafit (edited 05-12-2006 @ 03:43 AM).]

posted 05-12-06 03:40 AM EDT (US)     16 / 39  
You know, I like what you've done with this. It's not as flashy as I was expecting (a la skirm skewer), but it seems like a very smart, solid approach. I think it's a nice balance between your needs for defense and getting the econ cranked up.

Where do you feel this puts Dutch on the "power continuum"? Do you feel like you're still facing an entirely uphill battle against Germany?

Thanks for sharing the strat.

posted 05-12-06 09:38 AM EDT (US)     17 / 39  
you will still have troubles against the germans since war wagons and black riders will decimate ruyters, you will only gain any advantage by imperial. Not to mention that war wagons can safely own falcs from range.
posted 05-12-06 09:44 AM EDT (US)     18 / 39  
nice job jaafit,

my basic dutch strat is pretty close on average.

I have a hard time not sending any shipments in age 1 but i will try it lol.

Being flexible is always the best thing though cuz you never know what you will get hit with.

Against any age 2 rush but otto you can age up with the tower+200 gold (lvl 50+ hc), ship the 2 towers and decide on wether you need more defense or jump back into the bank spank.

If you know a heavy early fortress rush is coming around 8 mins or so, i usualy dump any age 2 banks and hit fortress around 6-6:30 with a pure EP FF, then ship the fort first. youll have it up before 8 mins which will discourage alot of attacks that early. Then I ship 1k wood to jumpstart the bank building again to spam all 6 as fast as i can.

If your sailing free needing no defenses till 8:30 or later this looks like its about the best possible BO.

posted 05-12-06 12:15 PM EDT (US)     19 / 39  
What is wrong with French??? 6.25 villager start and 3.75 vil card makes them fairly quick not to mention there economy is 5% more efficient throughout. They are like Germany, but with less mercs, no uhlans and curaisseers instead of warwagons. I'm a 2k player and I can easily compete at that level with French.

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 05-12-06 02:24 PM EDT (US)     20 / 39  
your a strange guy turtleheart . I watched your replay vs rookiller and i noticed some things.. Why so many skirmishers and no falcs? Especialy against ports, falcs own!! Then we mustn't forget, you made all those halberds, where you could have made a mixture of halberds and ruyters. Good play on the whole but vs and FFer, especialy a port, id rush. I owned rookiller recently actualy by grenadier rushing followed up by hussars to kill cacdores+ organ guns. It worked
posted 05-12-06 07:28 PM EDT (US)     21 / 39  

Quote:

Why so many skirmishers and no falcs? Especialy against ports, falcs own!!


My army makeup is determined mostly by my resource balance. I need lots of mills to make halbs and get to IV. If I could figure out a way to get a higher gold income I would definitely go with halb/falc/culv. That's pretty much unstoppable, whereas halb/skirm/culv loses to mass light infantry.

Quote:

Then we mustn't forget, you made all those halberds, where you could have made a mixture of halberds and ruyters.


Ruyters? yuk. Those things are so flimsy. I don't see why people like them so much. skirm/halb/culv beats ruyter/falc any day. It also beats goon/HC, which seems to be a very popular combo.

Quote:

Where do you feel this puts Dutch on the "power continuum"? Do you feel like you're still facing an entirely uphill battle against Germany?


I've never felt that Dutch were all that underpowered. If you try to play them the same way as you play other civs, you'll lose. That doesn't mean they're UP, just different. Their turtle/boom is one of their main strengths and if you don't take advantage of it, you can't expect to do as well vs a civ that makes full use its strengths.

agecommunity quote of the month Ok i have payed for this game for al my moneythat i get in a month so when i go online isee these 9 year old kids that beat me that have played for 2 weeks and i have played since release of vanilla so im pretty pissed of that es dosent want to do anything about the balance of the game.
posted 05-12-06 11:09 PM EDT (US)     22 / 39  
two dundamental things about dutch that is different to other civs are:

dont ship anything in age1
use banks to pay for vils, not vil time.

posted 05-14-06 05:28 AM EDT (US)     23 / 39  
Very interesting! So you really do just blow the ruyters off altogether, then. I should give this some thought. I've always gone ruyter\falc, and perhaps that is sub-optimal. I guess I always feel like I'm doing something terribly unjust by not making lots and lots of unique units.

And I actually agree with you that Dutch are not the horror show they're usually made out to be. They do seem to be a bit under powered in that they're forced to play 3 cards in order to realize their full economic potential.

posted 05-14-06 05:21 PM EDT (US)     24 / 39  
I wouldnt and dont just blow off ruyters. The right unit depends on what you having coming against as always but halbs are only truly useful against melee cav and thats if they can catch them.

Ruyters counter melee cav and can counter seige in melee mode pretty well. Why they dont get the 2x vs seige every other friggin ranged cav unit gets is beyond me but they have 1 less counter than halbs and are generally of more use. And they wont get murdered by falcs or HC the way halbs do.

The only unit a ruyter falc army has to worry about is culverin. if you can keep them from getting to the falcs you will usually be having the advantage.

posted 05-14-06 05:34 PM EDT (US)     25 / 39  

Quote:

Why they dont get the 2x vs seige every other friggin ranged cav unit gets is beyond me

um, they've had it since the game shipped.

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