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Topic Subject: The inexhaustible Ottoman rush.
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posted 08-23-06 02:21 AM EDT (US)   
Game replays available:
--1.09 replays--
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs BLuE_GaiDeN (French)_Yucatan.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs Testname (Brit)_Great Lakes.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs SoldieR (French)_Saguenay.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs Suddenkiller (French)_Yucatan.
Ender_Ward [Ottomans] vs guvaguva [British] on Sonora.
Ender_Ward [Ottomans] vs CHL-Takuman [Dutch] on Yucatan.
Ender_Ward [Ottomans] vs CHL-Takuman [Dutch] on Sonora (rematch).
--1.08 replays--
(some of these may no longer work in the current version)
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs M4rKy (Brit)_Great Lakes.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs Attila265 (Russ)_Saguenay.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs rozary (Spain)_Texas.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs Melk_Man (German)_Sonora.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs littlegreen (Spain)_Sonora.
Ender_Ward (Ott) vs masterscott100 (Spain)_Yucatan.
These should be sufficient in demonstrating the strategy in action.

Known 1: The standard Ottoman rush relies on shipments to power it.

Known 2: Colonial shipments end.

Known 3: Surviving until the Ottoman's shipments have been exhausted, is the key to suriving the rush itself.

Known 4: While shipments last, the Ottoman is able to nearly constantly stream Janissaries at his opponent, thanks to not having to pay food for villagers and not needing many miners.

Known 5: Once #3 is in effect, it is fairly easy to turn the tables on the Ottoman, as he is able to stream Janissaries no longer.

~~~

Proposed: if one is able to extend the ability to stream Janissaries at one's opponent much longer, perhaps even indefinitely, there is next to nothing to stop said Ottoman player from slowly, gradually, but surely grinding his opponent down to death.

How to achieve the above? Quite simple, actually. Trade Route resource generation, and Silk Road. This is the strat I've been developing sine the time of that "Resign epidemic" discussion that I got so much flack for.

It doesn't just work on a few maps, it works on ALL maps where you can get even 2 trade posts set to resources. Infact, I just finished a game where I did it on Yukatan using just two 117XP trade posts (which translated to 152 food each with Silk Road).

Being able to set 2-5 trade posts to food, using 5-7 villagers to mine gold and 3-5 to chop wood (housing), we can have the rest of the villagers on food to nearly continuously pump Janissaries from two Barracks.

Now just imagine for a second, how you would deal with 10 Janissaries arriving in your base every 34 seconds? If you think you'd have enourmous trouble dealing with that even if you made it to Fortress, you're correct.
Now imagine that these are upgraded to 305HP and 26 ranged attack, 19 hand attack x2 vs cavalry Janissaries. Now imagine that they are supported by 2-4 Falconets as well, and you will begin to understand the threat such a "rush" poses.

But the strength of the rush doesn't end there. If you send Silk Road right after 5 Janissaries as you hit Colonial, every, single, crate that you send from that point on, is enhanced too. You are powering your rush not with a 700 food and 600 food crates, but with 910 and 780 food crates. Apply the same to gold, and even more valuable ... wood.

Infact, when you want to go to Fortress, all you need is to send your 600 gold crate, and it actually gets you there faster than had you sent a 700 gold crate normally. The power of Silk Road cannot be underestimated.

But, many people will tend to use it wrong. They will tend to delay their rush by making it their first Colonial card. They will delay their rush by not using the 400 age up wood to build a forward Barracks and research stage coach. No, delay the sending of Silk Road until after you have sent 5 Jans. Make sure the rush arrives exactly as a normal one would. Make sure you harass early and not give up. Not for a second. Do not let your opponent breath even one sigh of relief.

You will find your food income so huge, depending on the number of trade posts powering it, that you'll be able to get the first two Mosque upgrades for villager train time. You'll also find yourself with spare gold much of the time if you had more than 7 miners. This will allow you to research the first villager cap upgrade as well. Assuming you don't forget about it half the time like I do.

There is the drawback that your trade posts will not be generating XP. This, however, is almost made up by the amount of units you end up training locally, and by the amount of enemy villager, units and buildings you will destroy. For example, in the game stats linked to above, I had produced 106 Janissaries through the course of the game. And that's with me forgetting to train reinforcements half the time.

Know that Skirmishers are no threat, if you have enough Janissaries (note that I built no Abus Guns, they weren't necessary). 305HP Janissaries put in melee mode and upgraded with Military Drummers (I have Advanced Arsenal in my deck) catch up to and rip apart small to medium groups of light infantry.

Know that cannons are no trouble either. Here's how you handle them. You set your Janissaries to stagger formation, and you manually move them right next to the Falconets. Just as you are about come upon them, switch the Jans to melee mode and immidiately click on the closest Falconet, to break the "pause" that occurs after a formation change.

Alternatively, you can use your massive wood crates (910 and 780) to power an insane fish boom WHILE you have your Silk Road trade posts working for you. If you get this going, you will be able to maintain a stream of Janissaries from three Barracks. Or if you just wish to stop an opponent's fish boom, these massive wood crates will allow you to construct 2-3 Outposts on each shore to make fishing extremely difficult.

There is a trick to leaving any starting or age up crates at 20 resources, until Silk Road arrives and gives +30 resources per each crate that originally contained 100. Normally this is alittle too micro intensive to bother with. My own attention is usually occupied with scouting, treasure hunting and even enemy explorer/scout assassination. But if you see no good treasure or think you can handle babysitting a villager while also scouting well, then go for it. It can yield you an additional 300 or so wood (depends on starting crates).

Lastly, note that when you take down the enemy TC and likely force him to relocate/scatter, do remember that you've just broken though the trade post "forcefield". You can now build trade posts that you weren't allowed to before, since they were too close to the starting enemy TC. This can make a difference in a close game. For example, on Carolina it can mean two additional trade posts, doubling your resource generation from the route.

I included no build orders, because frankly if you don't know how to perform a standard Ottoman rush, or Ottoman rush with a fish boom, then you need to learn those first. This strat is more of a modification of standard Ottoman thinking, rather than a detailed and strict build order.

And there you have it. A rush that unlike your standard Ottoman fair, does not become exhausted when the 700/600 crates are gone. How you use this newfound strength, is up to you.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 10-16-2006 @ 00:35 AM).]

Replies:
posted 08-23-06 02:42 AM EDT (US)     1 / 346  
Are you sending ATP or 3 villies or is 5 Jans the first card you play?
posted 08-23-06 06:57 AM EDT (US)     2 / 346  
Do you build 1 Tp straight away? and then build 1 rax with the age up wood then upgrade the TP to stagecoach with the other 200 with the other 200 then ship the wood for more TP's?
what times are u doign all this?
This rush would be unstoppable.

Welcome to democracy BITCH!
60% of the time it works every time
posted 08-23-06 07:11 AM EDT (US)     3 / 346  

Quote:

This rush would be unstoppable.

Of course not !

[sarcasm]Longbows are OP - remember ? All your opponent has to do is build 4 longbows and your rush is dead, no matter how many Jans and Grenadieres you throw at him [/sarcasm]

Anyway, good to see you back on the horse Ender


TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD

[This message has been edited by Tordenskiold (edited 08-23-2006 @ 07:12 AM).]

posted 08-23-06 07:15 AM EDT (US)     4 / 346  
This is REALLY nice. As if Janissaries weren't scary enough already, here comes a constant tide of them.

I assume the card order is something along the lines of 3 Villis, ATP, 5 Jans, Silk Road and so on?

Way to take the feared Ottoman rush to a whole new level.


Raen Ryong, Skyrunner of Dragonia...
The Sacred Skies, Seven Suns, and Sovereign protect all...
Feel the wrath of the skies...

ESO: Raen_Ryong; leader of Clan Skyrunner [Skyrn]

posted 08-23-06 07:32 AM EDT (US)     5 / 346  
Why send ATP?
U build 1 tp to start with and ship 700 and build another rax and more tp's
wouldnt u ender? *cough* tell us a rough build order *cough*

Welcome to democracy BITCH!
60% of the time it works every time
posted 08-23-06 08:17 AM EDT (US)     6 / 346  
Wow... this sounds great. Probably one of the best ways to use silk road to one's advantage.

I assume you usually send 5 jans, silk road, then... 700 wood for the TPs, extra barracks and houses? Or do you chop it?

posted 08-23-06 08:47 AM EDT (US)     7 / 346  
I was just stuffing around with the Silk Road thing, a card which i thought was pretty pointless so i never had it in any of my (somewhat new) Ottoman deck - however now that i know that the card also affects the resources of Trade posts, its a bloody insane card. I really like it - to the extent that i am going to send it whenever there is like more than 2 TPs on a map, regardless of a rush or an otto FF, because that 30% is actually really really good.

I still havent quite got the rush down packed yet (seems 6 mins is about as early as i get, and then i usually bugger something up like forgetting to build a church or whatever ), i would still like to thank you, Ender, for enlighening me to the endless joys of The Silk Road.


The Optimist believes that we live in the best possible world. The Pesimist believes this to be true.
posted 08-23-06 09:02 AM EDT (US)     8 / 346  
Great Strategy Ender! I am definetly going to give it a try.
posted 08-23-06 10:30 AM EDT (US)     9 / 346  

Quote:

Why send ATP?

To get 2 middle TPs with your starting wood. You opponent might want those TPs too, so getting them early could help.

posted 08-23-06 10:39 AM EDT (US)     10 / 346  
1. Only send ATP if you can claim more than 2 trade posts on the map, or if you're playing Spanish (for obvious reasons).

2.
3 Villagers
(ATP if #1 is true)
5 Janissaries
Silk Road
700 wood
700 food

And up to you from here on out.

3. The 400 age up wood is used on a forward barracks and stage coach. As you guys correctly surmised, 700 wood (910 really) is used on the second barracks.

4. I've experimented with sending ATP as first card and skipping 3 villagers, in order to get multiple trade posts in Discovery, instead of just one (especially useful against Spanish). I'm stil unsure if this is worthwhile. Needs more testing. Perhaps some of you will volunteer as test subjects.

5. Against Russians, instead of pumping Jans, pump Abus Guns, while keeping ~15 Jans around for protection against Cossacks (set TPs to food first, then switch them to gold permanently). Jan flooding doesn't work against Russians, but they will have enormous trouble against even 10 Abus Guns (which is about a third of what you'll be able to amass against them). Remember not to panick and that 12 Abus Guns one shot kill a Cossack.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 08-23-2006 @ 10:43 AM).]

posted 08-23-06 10:58 AM EDT (US)     11 / 346  
I hope this strat isn't too powerful because if it is ES is sure to nerf Silkroad.

ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 08-23-06 11:05 AM EDT (US)     12 / 346  
Abus guns are no problem against Russians. A good Russian will tuck and run toward your abus, firing every 3 seconds-because strelets are faster than abus, they will gain pretty quickly. They key here is forcing the Otto to overkill like mad when he's trying to hit+run, its practically impossible not to overkill on strelets.

As you do this, your cossacks move in from both sides, or from behind. What should happen is this:

1. Strelets begin moving forward while cossacks run around to the back/sides.
2. He either sees your cossacks and shifts his janissaries (which is slow) or he continues to hit+run.
3. The cossacks hit one of the abus, slowing the entire group. 2-3 seconds later, the strelets catch up and are swarmed in front of the jans.
4. Strelets trap the units with their masses, cossacks too far forward are pulled out, remaining cossacks hack away at the abus.
5. Jans+abus are dead.

Sounds like a very written out plan? Nah. Works 90% of the time, you're only screwed if his 3 hussars are still alive, they go behind your strelets, slow them down, and the abus escape.

Hussars are a much bigger threat to Russians than abus. Not to mention, a stable is 200 wood.


I am Rumour Kontrol.
posted 08-23-06 11:23 AM EDT (US)     13 / 346  
Not that I agree with your assessment, Mist, cause, like, the Ottoman player microes too, you know ...

But if that's what makes you happy, make Hussars instead. With the food income you have, you can afford it.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 08-23-06 11:31 AM EDT (US)     14 / 346  
Fine, you convinced me, I'll start an Otto HC.

I won a thread!
CROSS REMOVED BY REQUEST OF MODS
Blood weighs more than tears.
posted 08-23-06 12:04 PM EDT (US)     15 / 346  
I find it difficult to get more than 2 tp's if u wait too long. Vs spanish chances are likely that u end up with only 1 tp because of tp control.
I mostly pick 300 wood as first card to speeden things up.
posted 08-23-06 12:34 PM EDT (US)     16 / 346  
OMG! Glorious/Sinister himself posting in my thread!

*faints*

Ok, seriously now.

Yeah, I find it tricky against Spanish. I find that even if my explorer is killed, as long as I finish the one trade post before he's killed, he will revive right beside it when I hit Colonial (+100HP) or when he reaches 100HP on his own.

I find most Spanish players (myself among them) tend to build trade posts in the transition from Discovery to Colonial, so you have a window of opportunity to get them first. Especially if you rescue a native or a bear or 2 war dogs so you can fight off the Spanish player, or atleast make it not cost effective for him to fight you.

What do you think about saving your starting wood and using it for ATP as first card, though? You can then even use a villager to build a second trade post (after you begin age up) if your explorer got killed. I tried this a few time and it seems to work, but I miss the economy boost those 3 villagers provide.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 08-23-06 01:20 PM EDT (US)     17 / 346  
i tried this agaisnt a port, and ill admit i played HORRIBLE.

i found a lone tc and took it down, but of course he got cassas out,and i was too dumb to make abus, so he jsut hsipped in halbs and cassas and owned my jans and later my hussars.

on the brightside i had more resources than him(by the end), and i tried this on new england...yeah that was probly a bad idea.

posted 08-23-06 01:38 PM EDT (US)     18 / 346  
I used a similar thing to this against a russian player in my clan. He repelled my first wave comfortably, but I send 700 wood and got all TPs silk road and a second barracks. I managed to flood him with so many strelets that he couldn't stop me with strelets, I just put half of mine in melee, half in ranged and owned. He was below my rate but I think it's good nonetheless.
posted 08-23-06 02:34 PM EDT (US)     19 / 346  
one of the biggest problem with stagecoach is TP control.

a game between me and somme was on Sanguney with 5 TP, he invested on early ATP and took 3 TP, while i invested in early rush so he was on the defensive side, i then took 2 other TP left on the trade route, and used the stage coach that he paid for. cost to me was 500 wood, cost to him was 1 card + 450 for 3 TP and 400 for stage coach.

similarly here. this strat is great if opp never bothered with TP, such as british and dutch tend to do. but if they fought for TP as well and claimed 40~50% of them then it is a delimmar, if paying 400 for stage coach only to be share is not bad enough, silk road takes longer to pay itself back.

my suggestion would be always include ATP in your deck, you dont have to send it every time but you should always send it if opp starts fight over TPs as well.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 08-23-2006 @ 02:34 PM).]

posted 08-23-06 03:13 PM EDT (US)     20 / 346  
Guys, you're Ottoman, you dictate the pace of the game. Once you hit Colonial you will be keeping your opponent on the defensive, or you're doing this wrong.

If your opponent decides to fight you for the trade posts, fight for them back. Your resources and military > his resources and military (unless you're fighting a Brit, then his reasources > yours). Use that to your advantage. Take 5 Janissaries aside from your main group and use them to take down any trade posts he built. Then replace with your own.

And Ultimitsu's advice is correct, you should always have ATP in your deck (I do), but you don't always have to use it.

~~~

So, what are people's thoughts on ATP as first card? I need more test subjects to figure out if it's the best way to go against Spanish/Dutch (because of the early 8 Pikes).


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 08-23-06 03:34 PM EDT (US)     21 / 346  
Oo!! Dejanh did this, but the ottoman boat boomed so he was screwed.

Lamer: FF.
Me: Why?
Lamer: Cause you'll be in 1 age ahead of the other guys and have a better eco, plus you can turtle and since its on your TC + couple of towers you can't go wrong.
Me: Uh, we're on the G Plains, how the heck am I gonna turtle?
posted 08-23-06 03:47 PM EDT (US)     22 / 346  
Wow Ender, this seems utterly AMAZING. Once my Otto HC is high enough level, I will try this.

"Dont worry you have great skills. You are Unique....just like everybody else."-unknown
posted 08-23-06 03:54 PM EDT (US)     23 / 346  
Sry not a big player of ottoman, is silk road the crates bonus?

I'm actually from N.Ireland
posted 08-23-06 04:28 PM EDT (US)     24 / 346  
Wow this post is 10x better htan your lbow post.

Good post and good strat.


"Dutch are OP!"
"Iriquois are OP!"
"Stophon is OP!"

tEk Clan #1 US Clan
posted 08-23-06 04:48 PM EDT (US)     25 / 346  
Not to be mean.....but wont this only work against FFing civs? (which I suppose is the point) All a Russian has to do is place a Forward Blockhouse, and pump out strelets, overwhelming you before the superior recource flow can begin to tell, and with a Brit, if you do this strat you are giving him time to boom and churn out l bows.
This strat seems like It will be ideal when playing France, German, Port (?), Spain (especially, because when they run out of shipments they suck)

Other than that, Great Strat


ESO: empirejoao3
Clan:Proud
"You know the world is going crazy when the best golfer in the world is black, the best rapper is white, and the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese" LOL!!!
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