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Topic Subject: Aztec Colonial Conundrum
posted 11-22-06 01:13 AM EDT (US)   
My Aztec homecity recently passed lvl 60. I’ve had my fair share of ups and downs with them. I still don’t even have a clue what to do in some situations or really what I’m doing past mid fortress with them. One aspect that has been the source of considerable musing is what to do in the first 6-8 minutes of the game. There are quite a few choices to be made which will quite likely determine the outcome of the game. Knowing which shipments, which dance, which colonial politician just for starters and when to use them for maximum effect doesn’t just happen. As such I have compiled some of my more complete thoughts about how to play Aztecs from discovery to a few minutes into colonial.

Getting a large well balanced army out quickly is hard for the Aztecs. In a similar way that it is for the Russians. There are just a lot more choices that the Aztec has to make on the way which make the first 7 minutes of the game an interesting optimization problem.

All of the native civilizations start out with only 5 villagers. This puts then at a sizable disadvantage compared to most of the European civilizations who get 6 or even 7 villagers to start with. Fertility dance means that the Aztec can have actually pull ahead but the villagers will still have to pay for themselves. I could go into much more detail here but I think the idea is pretty clear.

Sioux save wood because they don’t need to build houses. Iroquois get the first travois which most all of them will send forward as a war hut. Aztec run into a bit of a predicament with their bonus because they have to spend 100 of their starting wood on getting a firepit up to utilize the warrior priest. The exception to this is Yukon, where using the priest to heal the war chief may make it possible to claim enough additional treasures to make it worthwhile to use him for such.

Classically the idea would be to age up in 90 seconds and have a war hut constructed immediately upon reaching colonial and being able to produce units continuously from it. Using the fast age option gets you to colonial well before the war hut is up in most cases and therefore wouldn’t be the best choice. This is an extreme generalization but I work with it as a base case.

The constant problem Aztec players have shortly into colonial is that they’re housed. Sioux obviously can’t have this problem and Iroquois have less of an issue with it because of the travois. The Aztec wouldn’t be so bad off if he hadn’t aged up with 18 or even 19 villagers, which is entirely plausible with the fertility dance, then sent a shipment of 10 mace which requires another 100 wood. To have any shot at keeping production up the Aztec will need 450 wood just for the war hut and houses very shortly after reaching colonial. And that doesn’t include the resources for training units.

Aztec players vary in their ways to work around the problems involved in getting a war hut up early and massing an army. Depending on the situation one might be able to get away without even building one for a while. Relying on the jaguars produced by the big button techs in the TC and military shipments such as the 10 mace or maybe even 11 rods for 500 gold.

Aging up fast probably won’t give you a lot more time to make troops. What it does do is give you another minute to send colonial age shipments. Thus a reasonable plan would be to age up fast and immediately sending the 700 wood and using it to build the barracks and houses. The wood arrives 40 seconds after the 30 second age up and it would be reasonable to estimate another 20 seconds before the war hut is up. Economically this may make the most since, especially if you’re going mace heavy and thus spending wood quickly.

A different approach to the problem is to not fill up as many population slots. Send the hunting upgrade instead of the 3 villagers (this seems to most logically lead to fast aging, sending 600 coin and going for a fast 9 jaguars). And then not to send the mace card until housing will not be such an issue, instead using the 5 coyote and/or 6 puma. In this way you can delay building the 3rd house a bit longer. Clearly sometimes mace will be necessary, such as an ottoman janissary rush. But may be viable against a Russian who will probably mass strelets. I haven’t experimented with this very much. I actually think the best plan would actually be to use the fertility dance still if you send the hunting upgrade shipment.

So when do you want to use which build? Some of these ideas aren’t the brightest. And Aztecs should always be rushing right? Why not attempt to find the BEST one and optimize around it. Not surprisingly it’s because it varies with the situation.

Against slower ff like a German or possibly Spanish and certain Dutch varieties, taking down the TC is probably your best hope. This is going to take more than ten puma spearmen to do the job. My jaguar builds for this use have been too week/slow to do the job. You have to forward build and make more than the 6 puma that the shipment delivers.

For hard, fast rushes like a Spanish rod rush or a Dutch skirm & pike rush come fast enough that early jags are important. All the various flavors of Iroquois rushes that require massing of mace to defend against will require fast aging to get the necessary shipments. And then there’re the pesky truly fast fortresses with times under 7 minutes. Sure these are completely undefended but making someone pay for it is still a sticking point for me (Iroquois are the big ones here). While normally the response is just a somewhat slower fortress I have yet to find an Aztec fast fortress that works with any reliability.

If the above was in anyway coherent I’m sorry so let me sum it up. Aztecs are at a disadvantage in early colonial. There are a lot of different builds to choose from. It is important to pick one that best fits the current situation or you’re probably screwed. I also don’t make any promises as I’m about 3-20 in the last week with Aztecs. Hope you have better luck than me!


NerVe Clan
SMF AoE3 Recorded Game Data Mod
icq: 118526591 «¦¤¦» msn: theflammifer@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 11-22-2006 @ 09:36 AM).]

Replies:
posted 11-22-06 02:54 AM EDT (US)     1 / 15  
Only recently started playing, but I agree aztecs seem to be a bit slow/sloppy in early Colonial, infact I stopped useing the fast age up politician because once in Colonial I could send the 10 maces then be housed and withuot a war hut, so I use a diff politician to enable me to get the wood for a warhut and/or house. However the biggest problem I have faced is the lack of siege, the fact that pumas need gold means its really hard to appropietly balance vills, so I have been trying the mayan shipment with the puma shipmet.
posted 11-22-06 07:25 AM EDT (US)     2 / 15  
Wow, great write-up! You've concretely laid out everything that I've been experiencing in the past few weeks of playing Aztecs. That early Aztec wood starvation is an incredibly interesting problem to puzzle out.

You've mentioned several good ideas, but one more to possibly consider is the 300 wood card. I know, it's painful to send this one, but it does seem like it'd lead to the earliest possible forward war hut. When there are civs which I absolutely, positively must engage in colonial ASAP, this is what I've been trying lately. But I'm still really experimenting.

Nice idea with the hunting upgrade -- hadn't considered using that to relieve housing pressure.

Regarding games past mid-fortress -- this is where I really find Aztecs to be at their strongest point. I think I've won most games that go to age 4 or age 5. This may have a lot to do with the econ and military upgrades cards I stuff my decks with, but the Aztecs can create a very powerful, compact economy. With the Chinampa cards, the Harbor "Temple Support" upgrades and the Knight Combat upgrade cards, you have a great opportunity to grind the other player down.


Strategies:
- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
posted 11-22-06 10:48 AM EDT (US)     3 / 15  
A BO I've been playing around with is to set the warrior priest to the xp dance ASAP. This typically lets me send both 3 villis and 300 wood while in Discovery. Using the fast age up poli, I hit colonial a little after 4 minutes and use the wood shipment + what I chopped during age up on a war hut and house. The only problem seems to be that it sucks up 2 shipments early and I can't send one as soon as I hit age 2.
posted 11-22-06 03:48 PM EDT (US)     4 / 15  
Haven't played a hell of a lot of Aztec in real games but I also use the XP dance asap to get 2 cards before aging up, one of them being the 300 wood card. Don't know about you but I've found that I rarely use more than 2 age 1 cards anyway, so I look at it as just a quick 300-wood bonus. I use a regular age up chief rather than the fast one, so that by the time I age I either have another card or will have one within a few seconds, where upon I send my mace card and maybe hit the big button at the tc. Still end up housed, but not tragically housed Also with the 300 wood you get to start on that forward WH earlier and might even get it up before the macehualtins ship.

(8-{)aRTieM
posted 11-23-06 06:47 AM EDT (US)     5 / 15  
Closed to prevent flaming.
posted 11-23-06 05:10 PM EDT (US)     6 / 15  
cerby u are so dead... look who started this thread...


Flim - I'd say you've summed it up pretty well. I stopped playing aztecs and went back to Ports... cuz i was getting beaten in colonial even easier with aztecs then with ports. of course I wasn't doing very well with them at only lvl 20 or so...



Currently retired from AOE3... moved on to LOTRO... yeah an MMO... but a fun one!
Hockey fan for Life:
"I believe the Canucks of Vancouver are formidable warriors." -Teal'c, Stargate SG-1
posted 11-23-06 09:00 PM EDT (US)     7 / 15  
What I do for Aztecs is age up fast with 14/15 vils and save my two Discovery shipments for Colonial. By doing this I find I can effectively string together 4 shipments which tend to come out as
10 maces
2 Warhuts
9 Maces
6 Pumas

"My fort was razed by cougars."
posted 11-23-06 09:15 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15  
Who the hell is this CeRBy....
posted 11-24-06 02:37 AM EDT (US)     9 / 15  
I think CeRbY = Dark_Rider but I am not too sure... They sure have a similar style of being retarded but idk if that resemblance is enough to make a definitive link...

Just stfu and stop posting if you have nothing constructive to say, ok CeRby?


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 11-24-06 02:46 AM EDT (US)     10 / 15  
Yeah Aztecs do have way too many options in colonial. They are always short on wood for a warhut if they use the fast age up politician the thing is they don't really have any other useful politicians instead. So many options it isn't even funny.

What do you do?

Big button rush
Rodelero shipment
Mace and Spear
Mace and Coyote
Do you send 700 wood
Do you send 3 warrior priests and if so when?
Do you use schooners
Do you want stealth coyotes or stronger coyotes
What dance should you pick when
Where are you gonna get all the necessary wood from

And those are only some of the options Aztecs have to pick from. They are a little weak in early colonial but seem to excel if they make it to fortress with a decent number of warrior priests.


ESO : Pcfreak8
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L. A. van de Snepscheu
A pessimist is usually right and never disappointed.
Any history buff knows that nothing stops a cannon like a good uppercut. - BeatnikJoe
posted 11-24-06 09:20 AM EDT (US)     11 / 15  
I find that the key to using the Aztecs is maintaining flexibility. This is because I was a AoM player untill quite recently and tried to develop AoM tactics to fit AOE3, which I have found do not work with any civ but the Aztecs.

If you try to boom, you can use your big button techs and gift dance to provide quick defensives if the opponent rushes, while using your resources on the short for your econ. For this strategy I perfer to send the 3 priest card as my 2nd card (Not 100% sure). This is for 2 reasons: (1) It improves the flexibility of play, and makes the gift dance more potent, (2) It is a population bargan.

If you are 100% sure of a rush, you can take more drastic measures, but I would never go heavy offensive with Aztecs early if I did not have to.

(I am quite new to AOE3/TWC so just ignore if you are above my level 20/2nd Lt)

posted 11-24-06 03:09 PM EDT (US)     12 / 15  
The variety of choices make aztecs an incredibly fun civ IMO.

Greetings, I'm Synthax.
SirKT 2k+ clan
posted 11-24-06 09:47 PM EDT (US)     13 / 15  
lately i've been doing a 16 vil age up with the fast politician. I like the fast one becuase you can start training villagers again much sooner, not necessarily to start a rush. The first colonial shipment has been 3 WPs. I don't know what it is about that card, but it really gets things rolling with the gift dance. I start training coyotes as soon as possible unless I scout/suspect a pike rush. Then I just raid and fight a standard colonial battle trying to get to fortress. Once in fortress, nobody can keep up with the fertility boom with the card that upgrades farms and plantations (agrarian ways?), and the 15% boosting politician. The boom is soo crazy that you can afford military and units so fast you can't build houses fast enough. It is VERY food heavy though.

I love coyotes so I'm always sure to keep the coyote combat card and the coyote merc card. Those things are really awesome when upgraded with 2 cards.


Counter the attack, then Counter Attack!!!
posted 11-26-06 02:14 PM EDT (US)     14 / 15  
Aztec awesome boom in age 3, for the army... they got beat by Range Infanty, though you can make coyette but they die to Anti-Cav.

I love team game (Aztec + Euro Canon) that beat everything.
So funny seeing opponents' expensive Cav. and Artillery all dead quick and easy wasting their resource.

The card War Hut training -40% cover all the war hut unit, And there is another one same as those Euro have "Infanty training -40%", that seems will cover all the units Aztec have,.. except not sure if it covers Coyette ? don't know if they treat it as Inf. or just Cav.


[img]http://www.skwizz.com/aoe_sign/Wilson@5@81@1@aoe3x@250,250,250@220,172,58.png[/img]

[This message has been edited by wilson0825 (edited 11-26-2006 @ 02:15 PM).]

posted 11-27-06 02:00 PM EDT (US)     15 / 15  
seems no one has even thought to consider that the fertility dance gives 20% increase in villager production, and with each villager it goes up approximatly 10% (20% for WP) what I find myself doing alot is sending the woodcutting upgrades as first card, with my first 5 villies i put 4 on food, 1 on wood, the first on wood will drop back and build a house immediatly, if 200 wood was available, the rush is on, drop the fire-pit as well, use fertility, i put 2 on hunting, 1 on wood, 1 on firepit, by the time i amass 800 food i have enough villies on wood to prodice houses as i need, the trick to it all is to get to the second age, take all villes off wood, using the fertility dance i replace them as quickly as possible, then i set the pit on producing warrior priests, and set my gather point on the fire pit itself, if you have 15 villes on the pit, it doesnt take that long to do this, and once you have 10 warrior priests (max amount you can have) take the regular villes off the pit and put them back on wood, land grab is an extremely useful card for the aztec, since they have cards that help both farming and plantation, I tend to use the fast age up politician myself as it is most useful early to start producing the warrior priests that I use so much, I tend to use fertility as much as i can, the experience trickle as i age up, and to be honest, I seem to never ever produce skull knights from the pit, if you can find yourself a way to produce 15 villies for the fire pit right off the bat and use cards to upgrade your wood production, aztec can be ruthless, of course for me I currently cant get online to play (as i have no connection at home) but in SP this seems to work out rather well, the villager production is really quick, incredibly quick, also people have said that the other big problem is that there is no seige from the aztec, that is NOT true, the archer Knight is a seige unit, read the unit description closely, If you take a mass of like 15 archer knights, with like 15 skull knights to defend them, you can effectively decimate your opponents entire fortress and towers and TC quickly (their range is greater than a fortresses) then run amuck with my jaguar knights I rarely use warhut troops so yeah, aztec is best for 3rd age, but with the eco upgrade cards, i tend to make it to fortress pretty quickly all in all, and for fortress i usually take to percentage to farming/plantation, but sometimes take warhut as well, cause i can usually go from aging back to aging again, straight to 4th, but playing the computer is far different from playing a human.. another really wild thing about the aztec is that if you use your cards in the 3rd age to upgrade villies (10% + gives 10 villies as well), arrow knights, eagle knights, and then in 4th to upgrade jaguar knights and skull knights, drop a couple extra skull knight cards and then produce all big button upgrades it is a huge swarm, i have had my pop up to 368 before..
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