Quoted from from MNBob's unit chart:

I don't see how 2GB can rip 10+ stagger formationed goon into shreds with the 0.5 multiplier. Espically port super goons(18/20 range).

Goon+Culverin would own this.

Ottoman Silk road rush is the way to go.

P.S Jans are good anti-cavs when you put them in defense formation and move abus inside the "jan box". Their High HP would buy enough time for Abus to own enemy infantry.
Cheap Jan owns!

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 12-10-2006 @ 08:36 PM).]

Quote:

Believe me, they do. Of course, as long as you have a few Spahi nearby (don't even need to be Spahi - anything that prevent Goons from meleeing your GBs, like half dozen Janissaries). Each GB can 1 shot kill a Veteran Dragoon (And they will be veteran, unless you can do a faster FI than one Ottoman and afford 1200/2000 resources to upgrade your Dragoons). I rememer a game where 3 GB and some well microed Spahis ended up killing dozen of Dragoons...

Quote:

That's the way to go, but since I've noticed that cute 12 Abus Card in Industrial, I don't really think Goons will be too much of a problem. If something, Otto FI was boosted in the Xpack... Not to mention the extra cards, which allow you to have a complete FF + FI Deck with 3 extra cards, besides the classic 3 Settlers and 700 Gold.

When I played with Ottos in vanilla a few months ago, I used to FI a considerable ammount of times. Although I prefer a simple FF, since FI can be too risky, it has won me some games. I don't really remember how Ender used to do it (or still does), this is not much different from the BO I used. But I used to play either 700 wood or UC before reaching Fortress, and when aging to Industrial, I aimed for 1500 food first and 1000 wood after that. The impact that 5 GBs have is just too devastating, and I think one could trade a Spahi shipment for 12 Abus, so you get your food for GBs faster and still has a very good anti Light Cavalry and Culverin force.

Nice strat anyway. If it could beat Asgard, maybe I should try to FI a bit of in TWC.

[This message has been edited by Just a player (edited 12-10-2006 @ 08:52 PM).]

Sorry about my comment, I lacked game experience against Indus.Ottos in TWC( I was using FI before IOR came along).

But Port Goon+Goon Combat +Genitours still pose a threat if you don't ship 12 Abus.

I would try this start as well, 12Abus rocks.

@Just a Player. What is your opinion on the "Cheap Jan" card?

[This message has been edited by Ranger General (edited 12-10-2006 @ 09:04 PM).]

Look up a player named hi_gl_hf. I've played him a couple times and this is his main strategy.

[This message has been edited by TPoW (edited 12-10-2006 @ 11:12 PM).]

I really dont think a naked FI is a good idea in TWC,if however you choose to do it,it should include 5 spahi in age 3 - and it should include the UC card for the extra GB and jans once you reach industrial.

5 Gb,8 spahi and 16 jans will rip any army apart.mix it with a "taunt 21" and you are on your way to victory.

I used it alot in aoe3 with great succes - i went from 1750+ to 1950(at my peak) and beat way better players than myself.

But as said - I dont recommend it in TWC,there seems to be more age2 fighting.

[This message has been edited by LaveY (edited 12-11-2006 @ 00:15 AM).]

but didn't see him get Great Bombard in recent games..
do age up to 4 under 10 mins.

the strats seems to be ok, but I got a problem with

"Main weaknesses of most otto FI's I have witnessed:
#1 Unique church tech card - dead giveaway which encourages people to rush. I don't ever use this card anymore when i FI."

you play with 11 jans/2TC/4&6 spahi.... kinda think that's a much bigger giveaway than the church card tbh

many players include the church card as late game option, and I'd never assume they are FI'ing just because of that one card

considering that 60% of all players rush, 25% FF with a very fast attack and the other would just camp and boom, i doubt this strategy is gud for 1v1's, but would probably be better in team games.

considering that 60% of all players rush, 25% FF with a very fast attack and the other would just camp and boom, i doubt this strategy is gud for 1v1's, but would probably be better in team games.

------------------------------------------------------------

And be victim of a double rush ?

@ ranger - goons and culverins pose the greatest fortress threat to this strat, but unfortunately it is very easily countered by GB and spahi. If he has got a shot off with his culvs, move your GB back, which will make the culvs move forward a little to follow. Simultaneously charge your spahi straight in at the culvs, if he has his goons in front of the culvs as a meatshield simply attack the goons with your spahi - Spahi kill goons in about 2 hits i think, and he has the choice to either run back or lose the goons. Your spahi have a huge amount of hitpoints and can take a lot of damage. If he runs, kill the culvs and then run yourself.

@ zongo - i don't usually use the 11 jan card anymore, and tbh i dont think the spahi or 2tc cards are a giveaway. I think my deck is fairly similar to someone who would rush in age II; however could you suggest any ways I could make it mimic this any more?

@ VooDoo - man lol i really wish I had some records from pre-twc to show you, you might change your mind about whether it is good for 1v1s...But anyway
-the ffers are the easiest to beat with this strat; they generally have a small yet strong force which is strong enough to defeat any colonial army and bring down a tc, yet is not strong enough to bring down a fort. Your superiour fortress time allows you to get your fort up easily.
- the campers/boomers are also easy enough to beat, as you get your fastest age IV time vs these guys.
- the rushers may be easy or difficult dependent on the rush. A lot of people will go mainly light inf vs otto to counter the standard jan rush; this is obviously easily beaten by 5 spahi. If the rush (whatever it is) is slow enough that you have a fort up by the time it hits, then you win.

The most dangerous rush is a pure anti-cav, strong seiging army which hits early enough that you cant send your fort. This used to be unlikely, but with the popularity of rod rushers, is more of a danger. With this your best bet is to put up a quick square wall, using your towncentre as one side of the wall, and send minutemen inside this wall. Send spahi, and try and make him chase your spahi around - dont engage, just run your spahi round and around the outside of your square wall, letting the tc fire and minutemen wear down the force. If he stops running after your spahi and goes back to seiging, get a quick couple of hits in from your spahi. This is make or break time, pull it off with your tc intact and you win, lose your tc and you are in serious trouble.

Quote:

If the "rush" is slow enough that you have your fort up by the time it hits, it's not really a rush.

Quote:

I might have overlooked that, but I didn't find any times here. Can you provide us with some approximate numbers? When do you have your Spahi and Bombards ready, say, with and without sending a fort?

I faced a guy who did this last night. I was dutch and did the Bank Rush against it. He reached Industrial about the time I reached fortress. But I had a much better eco and thus spammed halbs which countered through his spahi and his bombards effectively.

The strat surprised me because I hadn't seen a Otto do this in a while. Other civs I dont know what I would have done but I would say not to do this against a Dutch.

FI is suicide in TWC against Spain, Dutch and all three native civs.

Thx for the input there ender. Extremely useful and informative. Ya know I was waiting for a post from you, considering your reputation on this forum for being the originator and constructive criticisor of many strategies. Disappointing =/

Could you perhaps elaborate? As I have mentioned, I have been having serious trouble with this strat on TWC, but I havn't played enough games vs good opponents to find out why. What is so special about natives, spanish and dutch that means a FI is suicide vs them?

The dutch and the spanish have a good siege rush (especially since rods can siege now). They will take out your TPs or houses which will end all hopes of a FI and pretty much ruin your day if you already aged to fortress because they will out boom you.

The natives are the same way only slightly different. They also have good siege rushes to take your TPs or houses, but they will also have access to stealth units. The stealth units will probably take out your bombards unless you are very good with spies or explorer. They might also kill several of your settlers or just plain cut of your second and third hunts. Then there is the firepit boom which is very possible in all ages.

Aztec: Pumas for siege, Button Jags for stealth and siege, card upgraded coyotes for stealth
Sioux: WC that can take out both of your GBs very quickly, Tashunkes for stealth, war clubs for siege, siege dance also
Iroq: really fast tom rush, awesome map control options with travois dance

Quote:

I don't like it.

about the deck:
I would def remove the 4 spahi and team 4 spahi cards
and add the UC card and prob ATP
personally I would not bother with the mamelukes when u got so many spahis anyway, both the 5 abus or the manchu are more versatile imho
the 2 TC card is something that only works in theory, because in practice, all your other age 4 shipments have a higher priority - you wont have the luxuary vs any decent player to ship it and start booming

finally, my approuch would be to try and confuse your opponent a bit, add the 3 hussars and the native american treaties (remove the 600 gold and a age 3 card for it)

hope it helps you a bit

The 4 spahi card is pretty useful.
The 2 tc wagon I almost always ship after 2 factories. Gathering 1200 wood for tcs is out of the question with the 25 vill i usually have at this point. And I usually DO get the luxury of using this card against good players.

How does adding the UC card reduce the obviousness of this being an FI deck? The most useful part of it is the 3GB shipment, which can only be used in industrial..

Manchu are too easily killed by light inf, and are not competitive enough as anti-cav; they simply do too little damage compared to spahi.

Mams have stupidly high hitpoints, and on food-scarce maps 5 mam mixed with 5 spahi provide a decent meatshield for ur GB.

your deck screams FI, but that's just my opinion

I never said UC reduced the obviousness of a FI, but it's such a comon and powerful lategame card, that it's a must for the deck

I still dont believe the 2 TC being any good (except at reveiling your strat)
even if you can ship it after the 2GB and both the factories, I would rather have gathered 600 wood and build a 2nd TC during that period

5 spahi cards is def way over the top, your eco won't be able to pay up for all those shipments

I didn't provide detailed explanations because they shouldn't be necessary. The reasons why FI doesn't work in TWC are painfully obvious.

But I'll elaborate.

Spain will kill you with Pikes, Rods and 2 Falconets if they FF, before you reach Industrial. They wil also kill you with a Rod/Pike rush in Colonial if they get even a hint that you're not planning to fight them in Colonial yourself. Spahi will get owned by Pikes/Rods and your Fort will never finish going up.

Dutch will do a Halberd FF when they scout no forward base, and no attack comes by 6:30. They will then flood you with Halberds and have your TC and the entire base down by 10 minutes into the game, which is when you would've normally reached Industrial.

Sioux will either Warclub rush you in Colonial, or FF and wipe you off the map with the seige dance using every unit and shipment they can scrape together. You will not reach Industrial either way. OR, they will let you get to Industrial, while booming their ass off, then use mass Rifle Riders to own your Bombards and Spahi, while Axe Riders own your Abus Guns. Then you just die.

Aztec will Puma/big button Jaguar rush you so hard your head will spin. You'll be lucky to last to 9 minutes.

Iroquois will hit you before 5:00 with a Tomahawk rush, or at 9 minutes with a FF. That FF will have so much seige in the form of Mantlets and Rams, that you'll never see the 10 minute mark. Even if you somehow make it to Industrial with a TC intact, you'll be housed (and thus won't be sending Bombards or Spahi) and all your villagers will be kept pinned down by Forest Prowlers. Musket Riders and focus fire from Forest Prowlers will own your age up Spahi.

~~~

The reality is that in TWC you HAVE TO be prepared to fight in Colonial or early Fortress. Especially against the natives and Spain. FI these days is out of the question, unless against passive civs.

Quote:

Quote:

Halbs own everything. Except jaguar prowlers or musks, they effectively own the game.

ok my knowledge of the natives is limited so I will take your word for it. My knowledge of dutch is extensive and i completely agree with you that it should not be attempted vs dutch. A fake fb, 5 jan trained + 5 jan shipped to harass and create the illusion of a rush works well vs dutch. This is the only way I ever win using an FI vs dutch.

Spanish though i beg to differ. If they ff, tc fire + fort fire (the fort will definitly always be up before they reach me) deals with the 2 falcs, and the 5 spahi shipment is not required.
If they rod/pike rush it is hard but using the wall/minutement routine i outlined above you can own this.

[This message has been edited by IvIoIzT (edited 12-11-2006 @ 03:56 PM).]

Quoted from IvIoIzT:

It's not the 2 Falconets that you should be worried about taking down your Fort and then TC. Those are just icing on the cake. It's the 16-28 pikes and 7-16 Rodeleros that'll do you in.

Quoted from IvIoIzT:

Really not. With the amount of Rods and Pikes that'll hit you they will be through even double walls in about 15 seconds. And then you die if you don't have at the very minimum 15 Jans in stagger formation ready to fight them. In addition to minutement and TC fire.

Trust me, don't even attempt to FI against Spanish in TWC. Prepare to fight in Colonial. Usually the dead giveaway to a Rodelero rush is the two upgrade cards. If no rush comes (because Spain in TWC can FF attack and rush with the exact same deck), get 25-30 Jans, 10-15 Abus and prepare for the attack. Or go in yourself. I assume you know how to deal with Falconets using Abus and how to keep Abus alive from Hussars, Rods and Lancers using Jans. Then go to Fortress yourself. But a FI? What is the point? Especially considering the low chances of success.

You'll want to reseve a FI against the likes of British and Portuguese. But even that is dangerous. And of questionable value considering how much better your chances are in a Colonial - Fortress conflict.

You'll want to reseve a FI against the likes of British and Portuguese. But even that is dangerous. And of questionable value considering how much better your chances are in a Colonial - Fortress conflict.

-----------------------------------------
And get smashed by british grens ?

this is just not practical, Any rush which will keep your settlers off resources will end the game for you, which means some1 who parks a few bows next to your hunts and keeps you off hunts will screw u up long enough to ruin your strategy and let your opponent outboom- or outage u.