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Topic Subject: Caughnawhat? The Ottoman Iroquois Destroyer
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posted 02-24-07 12:19 PM EDT (US)   
Many players hate iroquois. Their forest prowler spam is so retarded, and owns nearly everything. Until now. This is the anti-Iroquois strat that I have been using for quite a while now, and I was waiting until I got some good recorded games to post it, but seeing as I only ever get red in QS (and iros never record their games) I have been unable to obtain any. So I figured I might as well post it now.

The Iroquois Destroyer

This strategy revolves around combining 4 powerful elements of the ottoman civ into one, creating a force so overpowered that not even prowler spam can beat it. Keep in mind, this will work against other civs as well as vs iroquois, but it's much easier to win vs iros because they seem incapable of producing large amounts of cavalry.

This is a sort of Fast Fortress into spamming pure abus guns backed by shipments. That's right, pure abus guns. Contrary to popular belief, forest prowlers will not beat pure abus guns, but will, in fact, be massacred quicker than the russians in WWI .

Add in a few merc cavalry shipments, some falcs, and you have yourself one dead iroquois player.

The Build Order

Discovery Age

(Standard Otto Discovery)

Age with 400 wood, etc etc etc.

Transition: Discovery to Colonial

-Shift 4 vills to gold, keep the rest on food. Once you have 300 gold, shift all your gold vills to food as well.

Colonial Age

-Ship 700 gold
-Collect age up wood
-Build a second TP and upgrade the trade route
-Collect the 700 gold

Click age up no later than 5:45, preferably around 5:30 (or sooner if you got any food treausres). Use the 4 abus gun politician.

-Ship Silk Road

Transition: Colonial to Fortress

-Once the trade route upgrade is complete, set your 2 TP's to wood
-Move 4 vills to wood, 5 to food, and the rest on gold
-Set TC waypoint to gold

Now heres where the build order varies a bit. If you can get more TP's, then use the wood from the trade route on them first. If not, build a foundry as soon as you accumulate 300 wood.

-Build as many houses as you can, preferably having at least 60 pop available shortly after reaching fortress

Once you feel you have enough housing and your foundry and TP's have been completed, set the TP's to gold. This will be used for abus guns, and Mamelukes.

Fortress Age

You should arrive in fortress before 7:30. Your iroquois opponent will hit fort at a similar time, if not around 7:00. Prepare for some prowler spam ASAP.

-Build 5 abus guns
-Ship 5 hussars
-Build more abus guns

Once you have ~15 abus and your 5 hussars, start walking around and sniping prowlers. If he's being really aggressive, stay more defensive until your next shipment arrives.

-Ship 5 Mamelukes

This will be your second fortress shipment. In many games you will have to stall your abus production to have enough gold for these to arrive in a timely manner. When they arrive, wreck havok on your iroquois foe. He will likely have an army of 5 cuirs, a lot of prowlers, and perhaps a tom shipment by now. Focus fire your abus on his cuirs, and slow them down with your mamelukes. Once these are handled, move back and get your mamelukes into a good flanking position. If he's camping behind some great houses, just stay back for a while until you have a larger force.

-Ship 5 abus guns

These will augment your forces nicely. Once you have some spare wood, upgrade your abus to veteran status. YOu should be swimming in gold by now with your trade route providing much of it. Once you have another 1000 gold...

-Ship 6 Stradiots

These should be the final nail in the coffin for any iroquois player. Just remember to attack him from multiple directions, and you're set. Abus + Merc cav own prowlers so hard it's not funny.


If he camps behind 3 GH TC's, feel free to set the trade route to food, ship 1300 gold, and go to industrial. Mortar spam will quickly remove any TC's he has from the map.

So there you have it, the best anti-iro strat there is for any civ IMO. The only thing he can do to stop it is spamming pure kanya horses, but who does that? The great thing about this strat is that you don't make a single jannisary the whole game! So after you're finished raping him, gladly say "Hahaha noob, I didn't even have to use jan + abus to beat you!"

Questions? Comments? Feel free to post them. Hopefully someday I will get blue in QS and a game will actually be recorded

[This message has been edited by xMatt the Greatx (edited 02-24-2007 @ 01:55 PM).]

Replies:
posted 02-24-07 12:29 PM EDT (US)     1 / 33  
No Spahis, uh?

I've seem the recorded game vs Seph you posted here in which, although had a different BO, you won mainly by spamming Abus backed up by Mameluks. And it really seems that shipping Mameluks over Spahis do better! However, don't forget having a few Artillery Combat cards in your deck... there's one that give Abus +20% HP, while other give them +20% or 25% damage

Nice strat. Check again the bold code on "5 Mameluks".


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posted 02-24-07 12:39 PM EDT (US)     2 / 33  
Nice Job! I hate playing against Iroquois..but I love playing with them lol.

This'll help a lot


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posted 02-24-07 01:11 PM EDT (US)     3 / 33  
Sounds really strong, nice job! The one part that I find completely surprising is that you don't use Spahi. I'd have been 100% positive that any anti-Iro FF would put Spahi in a prominent role. But clearly there's something to be said for high HP.

Looks good...


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- BWKiC - A British Fast Fortress strategy
- The Aztec Scout Slam- An Envoy Rush, Native-Style
posted 02-24-07 01:12 PM EDT (US)     4 / 33  
Hmm, interesting approach.
I actually mass some Abus first then age up for upgraded Abus + Mamelukes + Stradiots (by the way it's 6 not 5 of 'em ). That way I can kill his Warchief a few times (+100XP per kill is awesome), keep him off taking any TPs, and harass his extended hunters a bit.

And I see you too have come to the realization that Stradiots > Spahi againt Forest Prowler spam. Durability really is key, isn't it?

I disagree on the 5 Hussars, though. You'll be better off with 2 Falconets. Both will die quickly enough, but atleast the Falconets will do three-five times more damage before they perish.

Overall, interesting variation on an idea that's finally been forming in the Ottoman collective mind.


P.S.
You don't use Abus HP/attack upgrade cards? That 20% HP boost card is particularly good at extending Abus life expectancy.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 02-24-07 01:34 PM EDT (US)     5 / 33  
Nice bo was using something that looked liked that to but why are stradiots>spahis?
posted 02-24-07 01:43 PM EDT (US)     6 / 33  
I have another different BO.

It is:

Age1 ATP first card incase its 3 or more TPs, otherwise 3 vills. Build as many TPs as possible.

Age up, most vills on food, some on gold. (400W guy obviously).

Use your age up wood to build more TPs+to upgrade stagecoach. Set TPs to GOLD and more all vills to GOLD once you have 1200 food. Age up as soon as possible.(4 abus gun guy)

Next shipment is 700 (910) wood. TPs stay on gold. Send a few vills on gold, most on gold and some collect the wood+build a foundry+as many houses as you can afford so you still have 200W left. Queue up as many abus as possible. Once you age up, you should have already built 5 abus. Upgrade them and ship 5 hussars (btw @ ender, they are also to protect abus from kanyas+cuirs, not only to kill FPs).

Make more abus until you have 20ish and ship mamelukes. then do whatever you need to in order to win

posted 02-24-07 01:54 PM EDT (US)     7 / 33  
Me and my silly BB code mistakes ^^. And I always put 5 stradiots for some reason lol. Must be cuz dutch only get 5.

The main reason that I don't use spahi is that they are hard to fit into your economy, and they really do die horrifyingly quickly to prowlers. Stradiots are much easier to send when 90% of your econ is gold, and their extra speed is really nice. Also, stradiots are a lot better at killing their warchief

I send 5 hussars because they are just so much more mobile than 2 falcs. They also make a great addition to your mamelukes to make an excellent cavalry force, and allow you to attack from 3 directions at once. 2 falcs are practically unmaneuverable on the battlefield, something that you really don't want when being swarmed by prowlers and the 5 Cuir shipment. Prowlers also have a tendency to run away from 2 falcs practically unscathed, whereas 5 hussars trap them so your abus can catch up. Or maybe I just like hussars too much

I dunno what you're talkin about with the abus upgrades tho :P. I have the HP card in almost all my decks, and engineering school in most of them. I don't really have room for abus attack though in most of my decks, but I rarely get the chance to send double upgrade cards anyways.

@Dopple: That build is quite similar to mine, but when would you send silk road? You don't have enough shipments to send 700 gold, then silk road, then 700 wood and still have another one upon age up.

posted 02-24-07 02:23 PM EDT (US)     8 / 33  
Dopple/Matt:
My approach is to mass Abus first and then age up so that I get so many Abus Guns to simply one-two shot kill the Cuirassiers. I get like 30 Abus Guns by the time the Prowlers and Cuirassiers show up.
This is achieved by all the TPs being set on gold and both the 700 (910) and 600 (780) gold crates used.
Just like Dopple I don't set the TPs to wood unless I'm getting housed. I prefer to use the 700 (910) wood crate for my wood needs.
That way I don't need Hussars to help protect them. And I use the Mamelukes then Stradiots to slow down Prowlers. Just 5 Hussars really don't last long enough to do that job anyway, in my experience.

I also don't find it as important to attack from multiple directions as just to have something, anything, to slow down the Prowlers while my Abus close in for the kill.

I don't have space in my decks for Engineering School so I normally just build two Foundaries. I prefer to have the upgrade cards instead which benefit Abus a lot.

The general idea of my own variation of this strat, is that with even just the 20% HP upgrade card used for the Abus Guns, I don't need to be in Fortress when the first Prowlers show up. Not even when the Cuirassiers show up. As long as I have enough of a mass of Abus to deal with the Cuirassiers on their own, and to force the Prowlers back. It's only at this point that I age up, get the Mamelukes and upgraded the Abus to Veteran.

IMO one doesn't really get enough benefit out of jumping straight to Fortress. The 5 Hussar shipment can be 700 (910) food with which you can train more Hussars and get XP for 'em (200 wood for a stable is fairly easy to get from one run of the trade route). And Mamelukes are only necessary once you go on the offensive, to slow down the Prowlers from hit and running you to death.
Before then, being in Fortress isn't required, IMO.

The overall idea though, to throw all the resources into Abus and Merc cav is indeed the answer to Iroquois Prowlers spam FF. It becomes so much easier when you don't have to spend half your resources on a Jan screen (whicih we're so used to needing). And I'm glad my fellow Ottomans are realising this finally (me among them, having only recently come to the realisation). We'll make those Iroquois pay.


"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 02-24-07 02:33 PM EDT (US)     9 / 33  
sounds fantabulistic and as ive started playing ot ot otto again i might get round to tryin it.
but if some1 sees this coming they might make kanyas backed up by musket riders (yes laugh with me at the thought of that actually happening, ha ha ha)
but of course, he might

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posted 02-24-07 02:39 PM EDT (US)     10 / 33  
Looks awesome. Thanks for another good strat, Matt
posted 02-24-07 03:31 PM EDT (US)     11 / 33  
looks like a great way to piss off some iro lamers.

however

Quote:

creating a force so overpowered that not even prowler spam can beat it. Keep in mind, this will work against other civs as well as vs iroquois

thats pretty ironic. i believe yesterday you were arguing that ottos werent OP. now here you are seemingly saying that they are.


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"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

posted 02-24-07 03:40 PM EDT (US)     12 / 33  
Erm sorry I forgot to say that I dont ship 700g but only silkroad :P

So its basically 3 vills/ATP -> silkroad -> 700W.

IMO thats better since wood is worth more than gold, you also get 210 additional res (wood).

You pay with a ~30 secs slower aging time though. But vs most Iros that wont matter much (unless they rush but in that case you'll die anyway).

posted 02-24-07 04:06 PM EDT (US)     13 / 33  

Quote:

thats pretty ironic. i believe yesterday you were arguing that ottos werent OP. now here you are seemingly saying that they are.

It wouldn't be overpowered if they just made some kanyas :P. As it stands though, no amount of forest prowlers are going to kill you. Kanya + Musket rider will blow you to bits if you don't use some counter measures. Also, an iro rush is quite capable of beating this, but they are so used to FF'ing that this generally doesn't happen.

Again, I'll try to get some recs of this. For some reason staying in colonial for extended periods of time just doesn't work out for me. Prowlers (with 17 siege!!!!) kill all my TP's and then my foundry and such while I'm aging :S.

Quote:

So its basically 3 vills/ATP -> silkroad -> 700W.

This is almost what I did vs Seph . I dunno, I just find the extra speed to be useful. Do whatever works for you, I'll give each version furthur testing.

[This message has been edited by xMatt the Greatx (edited 02-24-2007 @ 04:06 PM).]

posted 02-24-07 04:41 PM EDT (US)     14 / 33  
Can you start playing Aztecs and invent some OP strats for them please?

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posted 02-25-07 02:27 AM EDT (US)     15 / 33  
get some recs pls i love to see iro lose lol, against no matter what civ. regardless of the situation i can usually see something that will improve my game against them as any civ

"he will have a hard getting banks up"
~rel4xed

"I accidently drop kicked someone once"
~george_uk

posted 02-25-07 09:46 AM EDT (US)     16 / 33  
Iro do have 2 kenya shipments (6/5) in age 3 that will be sent vs this strat. The age 3 travois will be used for a corral, therefore it can be assumed that more will be created. You are taking a rather large risk with this strat. As without wood for a rax (when do you plan on getting a mosque?) it will be a long time before you get jans out.
posted 02-25-07 11:51 AM EDT (US)     17 / 33  
Mams+5 hussars+ maybe 8 jans take care of any kanyas.

Kanyas suck anyway and abus beat them in low numbers without trouble.

posted 02-25-07 12:47 PM EDT (US)     18 / 33  
When you have 30+ Abus guns and 5 Mamelukes, you can point at the 6 Kanya and laugh. That's one shot kills on slowed, crappy cavalry.

"One wants to be loved, failing that admired, failing that feared, failing that hated and despised. One wants to instill in other people some form of emotion. The soul shudders before emptiness and wants contact, no matter the cost."
posted 02-25-07 01:06 PM EDT (US)     19 / 33  
Watch my game vs Xypher to see my strategy in action.

(->AgeSanctuary)

posted 02-25-07 01:53 PM EDT (US)     20 / 33  
If I seen a bunch of merc cavalry in an Ottoman deck, I would definitely rush. As a matter of fact, I think the Iro rush > Ottoman colonial on equally skilled opponent. Even if you just take out a few villagers and a house or two, it will slow the Ottoman down significantly, then do a delayed FF.

National Unity spammers will have a much better chance versus this strategy as well with a 9 kanya shipment followed by 5 Cuirassiers and locally built prowler support. The 2 medicine men will help keep the Cuirassiers alive. In addition, musket riders are essentially equal to dragoons for helping to take down merc cavalry. It is fairly easy for an Iro to retreat and set the travois dance (faster than chopping wood) for a stable as well and upgrading the Kanya (200W 100g) will make them slightly better than regular hussars.

You ever try t squeeze in a saloon? I guess that is hit or miss and the wood is needed? Anyhow, I see your point and this is very nice thinking for defeating Iros that just do a pure FF.


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[This message has been edited by Cyclohexane (edited 02-25-2007 @ 01:56 PM).]

posted 02-25-07 02:07 PM EDT (US)     21 / 33  
I had been doing some thinking about early game card order recently. Quite obviously the silk road - multi-TP perpetual economy machine is imperative to get online as quickly as possible. With that being said, quite often I find myself facing the ATP v. 3 villagers card query. On maps with multiple TP options, ideally speaking Im going to find 2 as a main priority for early scouting. Given that, It would seem optimal to ship the ATP and go the silk road / coach upgrade route. Then I tend to always want to second guess myself and say I should have sent the 3 villies, because although ATP grants me a more stable economy in the long run, 3 villies seems to provide a more synergistic early game tempo that is critical to the ottos.
posted 02-25-07 05:31 PM EDT (US)     22 / 33  
All Ottoman have merc cards in there deck so I guess you'll rush eatch time. And an ottoman can easily see if an iro is rushing or ffing. If he ages up with fast poli=rush if he ages up with slow=poli ff. So if I see an iro age up fast i'll just rush him and gg for me.
posted 02-25-07 05:48 PM EDT (US)     23 / 33  
Oh Oh
*does some testing*

Abus do own Fp's in ranged, but forest prowlers pop efficiently beat abus... in melee

2 Fps = 2 pop 130 gold, 100 food.
1 abus = 2 pop 100 gold, 50 food.

Abus = 10 melee attack, 130 health, 50% ranged resist... no melee resist.

Fps = 8 melee. 110 hp.

a mass of stealthed fps can take out your abus then, while the abus are being attacked, send some kanya and the cuirs. if you focus fire on cuirs or kanya, the Fp's will just eat away at your abus, if you don't you lose your abus pretty quickly

posted 02-25-07 05:52 PM EDT (US)     24 / 33  
I have tried it, it only works with small amounts of abus (so all can be forced into hand attack mode). + it would be a really bad idea with merc cav around
posted 02-26-07 10:27 AM EDT (US)     25 / 33  
thats what musket riders are for.
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