good strat

but i still dont understand how do you dont touch the mines...
if in a game you start with no gold oyu have to mine it or from treasures...

Strong work! I really like the look of this. I'm glad to see that people are already starting to think seriously about creative ways to use the Ottomans on these non-TP maps (in anticipation of 1.03.) With abus guns perhaps not filling the uber-killer role they traditionally have, it's good to see some creative ideas for improving the Otto eco.

It's clear that ES put that extra wood down there so that people could build a mosque if they wanted one. It's always been a bit of a shame that this has never been found viable before.

As for the gold trickle, do you use that so that you'll get the maximum good out of this mosque bonus before hitting the 25-vill flatline? Or just to keep your mines perfectly pristine? Or is there yet another reason I'm not thinking of?

And some more math for everyone -- if Ultimitsu invents a new strat every 8 hours for the next few weeks, how many strats will we have by the end of March?

Good job.

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 03-01-2007 @ 10:50 AM).]

this is going to sound so noobish but... I keep seeing people referring to gold trickle. Ultimitsu says to "send the gold trickle card", I dont know if Im just overlooking time and time again in my card options or what. I have a feeling that you are guys are talking about the capitalism card but I wanted to make sure.

Matt, Walker and myself have already discussed this idea (proposed by me) when the changes to QS came around, and we were faced with playing on non-TP/water maps without choice. The conclusion from my own tests (which further used the 500 food upgrade as well) was that while you had a slight boost in economy, it stil wasn't even close to competing with the normal civs (aside from possibly Portugal and Germany), and left you weak on military, particularly because of the lack of wood for military buildings or natives and the need to chop it.

Not to mention that a FF on a non-TP map is suicide against half the TWC civs played by people who realise how weak Ottomans are in that scenario.

wow, 2 strats for 2 different civs in quick succession. I'm impressed,
This looks strong, its so funny that whenever a new strat comes out that looks interesting it makes everyone want to dust of their home cities and give it a go.

This is not a "strat" (unless: "Build Mosque, research 300 food upgrade" is enough to be called one now). It's an attempt to present an old, repeatedly tried and generally bad idea in a new and better light, when nothing's actually changed.

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Still, I think ultimitsu presented the best way to make this suicide

However, I never knew it could save that much VS. Three hundred food now, means extra 5 Abus later! Still, I can't get what NWNT means...

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Starting wood + 400 wood should give a Barracks +3-4 houses or a Foundry +2-3 houses. Either way, as a matter of fact, what would you advice doing on no TP maps? Some kind of Jan + Abus no TP rush which Sephi covers on his guide? And, please, don't answer "resign"

Quoted from Cherub Walker:

"No Water, No TP."

Or perhaps "No Whining, New Tactic" as a more appropriate reaction for those non-water, non-TP maps. (Having done plenty of whining myself when I drew Bayou waaaaay back in the day.)

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Do you mean that the problem is that Ultimitsu's suggesting an FF at all on these maps or is there some flaw in the numbers he's presenting? He's expressing what is (to me) a new idea and presenting a justification as to why it's a net gain. Maybe you could repeat the flaws for those of us that have missed the last few "Ottomans Only" meetings.

And I honestly don't recall anyone ever talking about a mosque-first FF before. Has this been widely discussed and picked apart before? If so, I missed it.

[This message has been edited by Beatnik Joe (edited 03-01-2007 @ 12:41 PM).]

scriv, people do that for a reason :P They stopped playing their civ because they couldn't find any strat that would make them win so they ditched them for Spain but when a strat comes around they try it out.

Looks pretty decent, might have to dust off my otto for it

_{Ender is just bitter his civ got nerfed, weclome to the club}

Joe,
Yes, the first problem is that you're doing a FF on maps where only a Jan/Abus rush is truly viable. You have neither the shipments nor the economy to make a FF worthwhile.

The second problem is that 300 food may not seem like much, but without trade posts or water, you don't have that much income in terms of resources, which will slow down your Fortress time by a good 30 seconds, if not more (depending on hunts).

The third problem is that you're giving up 200 wood on a Mosque at a time when it's best use would be for a Barracks, houses or 2/3 of the cost of a Foundary. Not to mention a Market and it's upgrades.
The only way to compete on non-TP/water maps is to not gather wood, at all. It's all gotta come from shipments and the starting/age up wood. That's the only way to keep producing enough troops to make a difference, by maximising the villager second efficiency of your weak economy.

The overall problem when the Mosque route is considered (many times over the past year+) by Ottoman players is that we just can't afford to blow food and wood on such a minor improvement at a time when every VS counts.

The irony here is that the idea is good on TP/water maps, and is something I do already (I often research the first two villager training techs while stil in Colonial and fighting my opponent full steam), but isn't good, at all, on the "trouble" maps. Walker and me even done some test games on Painted Desert, where I utilised the Mosque early, and yet I couldn't keep up in booming even with his Portuguese in their current sorry state. Against the native civs, France, Russia, Brits and Dutch it's utterly and completely hopeless. And Spain will just kill you with shipments (you can't compete with locally trained troops without TPs/water).

And yeah, this was all pretty widely discussed and pretty much abandoned about a year ago, in the days when Hippocrack was stil around posting Ottoman strats, and I was stil a n00b new to the civ, just having switched from Dutch and Portuguese.

Thanks for the reply... there's only one point I'm still confused on:

Quoted from Ender_Ward:

Now I realize that the weaknesses of Portuguese are legion on a map like this... but I wouldn't think that power-booming from safe hunts would be one of them. Isn't Porto booming out of 2 TCs compared to your 1, slower TC? And wouldn't there be other civs that appear slower than Ports here? Like Sioux or someone?

Maybe you guys were comparing raw resource gain then? Because Ottomans "gain" resources more slowly, but then also don't really spend them very quickly either. Ports on the other hand can reinvest in their eco very rapidly but have to wait a good while for that investment to pay off. It seems like Port and Otto would be different enough that it's hard to compare them. How did you guys wind up going about it?

not to trying to fight for the "origin for this idea", i actually first brought this up about 2 month ago (not in HG), at the time i dont remember walker saying it was suggested before, apart from it being crazy... i just never got around to try it more until recently.

the second mosque training is actually very crap. costing 500 food and only improves half as much as before at 4 seconds, it takes a lot longer to pay itself back AND it will slow your FF down immensely. it is best done after you have a reasonably srong economy in mid-late fortress.

about the use of 200 wood, its not like you can avoid chopping wood or building a mosque forever, you are not rally "wasting" as such, you are building it early.

your age up wood provides enough for a barrack and enough houses for the next few minutes. if you insist on getting a foundry AND a barrack, then of cousre you should look else where, good luck affording both jans and abus in colonial without water and TP.

i didnt know FF was considered suicide, personally I feel that insist on fighting in colonial as ottoman on NWNT maps is the real suicide, unless you play against civs vastly disadvantaged to otto on colonial. Plenty of players choose their deck before me and likes of spanish, port, british(as long as he doesnt nade rush me), iro dont really bother rush me.

if you do really do get rushed, you can still fend it off like you always do with jans, what do you miss? 300 food and foundry at 5:00 compared to 7:00. With a better eco, personally i am happy to take this risk.

the reason this approach works better with FF compared to prolonged colonial, is the 200 wood early mosque upgrade and 300 food will give you less minimal dent to the overall economy. 300 food cost you no slower FF time and the early mosques wood use becomes insignificant if you receive 1000 wood at 8:10.

Quote:

you got most of it, it also carries all the usual benefit of trickle cards - save pop space, unraidable, no walking time etc.

[This message has been edited by ultimitsu (edited 03-01-2007 @ 03:58 PM).]

NWNT= Not What Nick Thought?