You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Strategy Central

Hop to:    
loginhomeregisterhelprules
Bottom
Topic Subject: Dutch Defensive Skirms
posted 08-24-09 03:48 PM EDT (US)   
Dutch Defensive Skirms
A Dutch strategy aiming to hit fortress before 11:00 with a good mass of skirms, and a decent economy.

Summary
The Dutch are a very strong fortress civ, with a superior eco to most civs and a very powerful and massable army. Their core army (ruyters, falcs, and skirms) is all upgraded to vet upon aging up, which is a huge advantage, as not only would your opponent have to spend resources upgrading their units, but they would also have to wait for the upgrades to finish, which can give you enough time to gain the advantage.
However, the Dutch are quite susceptible to a fast age 2 rush, which most players know. Typically, players will either try an xbow contain, or just a straight up HI/LI rush vs. Dutch. This strat counters both of those, and really counters anything but an FF or a turtle. You can use it vs. a turtle, but it's usually a far better idea to FF.
The idea of this strat is to take advantage of the fact that skirms have the highest range of any age 2 unit other than longbowmen, and thus can hit and run anything, even cav, with proper building placement and micro. Then, with your defensive army, you go to fortress and start taking advantage of the Dutch as they were meant to be played.

Cards
Required:
-3 Villes
-Bank Wagon
-700 Wood
-3 Hussars
-8 Pikes
-700 Food
Highly Recommended:
-Bank of Rotterdam/Amsterdam
-Advanced Church
-Tulip Speculation
-9 Ruyters
-7 Ruyters
-Cavalry Combat
-Fort Wagon
-1000 Wood

Other than that, it's up to you.

Build Order
Discovery Age
The goal is to age up with 15 villes, hitting as close to 4:10 as possible. If you have enough gold crates, that is, 6 gold crates (it does happen occasionally), you don't need to mine any gold. In this case, gather all the gold crates, one wood crate, then all the food crates, and every ville goes hunting. Build a house, and queue up 6 villes total (12/20 pop). Note that you should be mashing your ville button as soon as the game starts (after you micro your villes, of course). Your first shipment will be 3 villes. Age with the quartermaster;
If you start with 5 gold crates, put 2 of the starting villes on gold, and as soon as you get the extra 100 gold you need, just move them to food and queue up the last ville. If you start with 4 gold crates, use 3 of the starting villes to mine, and once you get that 200 extra gold, queue 2 more and put all villes on hunting.
If you start with 4 gold crates, you will probably have a bit of idle TC time before you age, but that's fine. Not ideal, obviously, but it's not a tragedy. I'd start herding 2 secondary hunts ASAP, especially because you can't spare the wood to build outposts to protect hunts that you haven't herded properly.
Transition
Split your villes based on your starting wood crates; if you start with 200 wood (you'll have 100 wood left), put 9 villes on wood and 6 on food. Look for wood treasures with your explorer. If you started with 300 wood (200 wood left), split your villes as 7/8/0 (F/W/G). In either case, once you gather 350 wood (you will have 350 food by then), build a bank, then redistribute 6/0/9. Queue up one ville, with the TC waypoint to gold.
Colonial Age
Send the Bank Wagon as your first shipment, and collect the 400 wood ASAP. Put up a rax and 2 houses. Building placement is crucial, and will be talked about later. As soon as you have another 100 coin, queue up a second ville. Queue up as many skirms as possible once the rax is up, your first batch should be of 5.
Keep up constant ville and skirm production, and place your bank wagon once it arrives. Before your second batch of skirms comes out, you should receive another shipment. Send 700 Wood. Once you have 13 villes on gold, switch the TC waypoint to food. When the 700 wood arrives, build a stable, a market, 3 houses, and research placer mines at the market. Remember, you should be able to keep making skirms. Once you have a 10/0/13 split, move the TC waypoint to wood.
Your third card depends on what your opponent is making. If they are going heavy on LI or HI, ship 3 Hussars. If they are making lots of cav, send 8 Pikemen. Keep making skirms, and by the time you have about 30 of them (this may be slightly inaccurate), you should receive your fourth colonial shipment. Send 700 food. At this point, STOP ALL VILLE AND SKIRM PRODUCTION! It will only slow down your fortress. Put 20 villes total on gold, the rest on wood, and buy food until you have 500 food. Once the 700 food arrives, eat it with the wood villes. You should have 1200 food and 1000 gold at the same time. Age up with the Exiled Prince.
Transition and Fortress
I tend to split my villes (you'll have around 26-28 by now) as 5/6/17, and buy wood for a few houses. However, what you do at this point is up to you. Ruyters + falcs works vs. most civs, though I usually mix skirms (in case the opponent goes RC). You've arrived in Fortress with 2 banks, 30 skirms, and approximately 30 villes, not bad for Dutch, and it will repel almost any rush.

Building Placement
With this strategy, building placement is crucial. Typically, you'll hear players saying to create a 'wall with your buildings' as the Dutch, which is usually sound advice. In this case, you just want to make it difficult for your opponent to move around in your base. I'll put my first bank touching my TC, and my second one either in front of my hunts, or in front of my gold mine. Your rax should be in the back of your town, though still rather close to your TC, as you want to build inward, not out.
The plan is to use your skirms to hit and run ANYTHING, even xbows. If they try to advance, simply garrison some villes, move your skirms behind your 'maze' of buildings, and shoot them as they try to navigate through so that they can fire on your army. Usually, it's pretty effective, at least in my experiences.
Make sure though, that your buildings don't block your villes' path to the TC, as the other reason you build your buildings inward is to help you survive raids. You can focus fire with your skirms on the cav, as they, again, try to maneuver through (or out of) your buildings, and they should die relatively quickly, as TC fire + fire from 20 or so skirms can easily take down a cavalry unit, especially an uhlan.

Other Tips
As with any build order, you need to make adaptations based on the situation at hand. Sometimes, when you send the 700 wood, instead of building a stable, 3 houses, a market, and getting placer mines, you should make 2 houses, a market, get placer mines, and put up an outpost to defend a second gold mine, if you run out of your first. You can build the third house shortly after, as you should only need 25 more wood.
CHECK YOUR OPPONENTS DECK! If your opponent is FF'ing or doing a pure cav spam, DON'T DO THIS! Pike rush, or FF yourself vs those. You don't wanna be stuck with colonial skirms vs a fortressed opponent, or a bunch of cav, no matter how well you place buildings.

Good luck, any feedback is appreciated, and I hope this helps

GR acc name: Ultraviolet [£eg¡øn]
'hey l0bst0r3r!! r u j3w!sH ?? c@n U t3LL m3 wH3r3 t0 g3t s0m3 k0sH0r r3c!p3s?
i l!k3 k0sh0r f00d th3r3's a j00ish r3st4ur4nt 4r0uNd t3h c0rn0r but it's s0 3xp3ns!v3'
-l33th4x0r

[This message has been edited by Conquerer_MAG (edited 09-21-2009 @ 05:12 PM).]

Replies:
posted 08-24-09 04:47 PM EDT (US)     1 / 10  
red my strategey also pls.
posted 08-24-09 04:51 PM EDT (US)     2 / 10  
sparta... this strategy is far more specific... so therefore its better. just watch your cav weakness. its like huge. 8 pikes are not going to stop 20 axe riders.

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
posted 08-24-09 04:57 PM EDT (US)     3 / 10  
Any idea of how to adjust this towards 'Nilla, basically just change the bank wagon card and 1 less vil for age up. Anyone know any other differences in TAD vs 'Nilla?

@sparta: Your thread barely is comprehendable and really isn't specific enough to be considered a strategy.

ESO: socrstar
Comprehensive Turtling Guide
Semi NVR for 'Nilla
Rise of Amsterdam v2: A guide to the Dutch
"Wanna see my victory dance?" "Sure." "Hold on I need to get naked first." "Whoaa"
posted 08-24-09 06:15 PM EDT (US)     4 / 10  
If a mod reads this, could he/she please delete sparta's post? I really don't want this topic to turn into a flaming of him, since undoubtedly it will otherwise.

@ O_Man0:
Yeah, vs a player like sioux, I'd probably 2 bank FF though, since it's faster and you can crank those ruyters out earlier. Scouting is really important also, if you're against a player like france or germany, who may or may not go cav.

@ socrstar:
I feel honored to have the author of Rise of Amsterdam commenting ^.^ Anyway, I think that for vanilla, you'd probably have to change the whole BO, since otherwise 2 banks will be quite difficult, You'd have to ship both 700 wood and 600 wood, which means you'd need more food villes, which would mean less skirms/nonconstant ville production... but Dutch aren't very good in vanilla in general, IMO.

Thanks for the replies.

GR acc name: Ultraviolet [£eg¡øn]
'hey l0bst0r3r!! r u j3w!sH ?? c@n U t3LL m3 wH3r3 t0 g3t s0m3 k0sH0r r3c!p3s?
i l!k3 k0sh0r f00d th3r3's a j00ish r3st4ur4nt 4r0uNd t3h c0rn0r but it's s0 3xp3ns!v3'
-l33th4x0r
posted 08-24-09 06:31 PM EDT (US)     5 / 10  
Any idea of how to adjust this towards 'Nilla, basically just change the bank wagon card and 1 less vil for age up. Anyone know any other differences in TAD vs 'Nilla?
vanilla you do 16 vill age up (3/4 on gold at beginning, rest on food) and pretty much the same just send 700 wood for banks instead of bank wagon.

IMO you should bank boom a bit more and build stable+bank+market with the 700 wood and also mention that dutch players often trade gold for wood a bit at first in the market for more houses/banks

Maybe also describe how to go on a bit in fortress (what cards to send, what units to make, etc...)

QUACK
posted 08-24-09 07:00 PM EDT (US)     6 / 10  
Congrat Conqerer!

It's a way smoother then FF, i was really missing this kind of strat.

Tried on AI expert, in fort i made ruyters from the stable, first card was fort, because i was out of goldmines near, then 9ruyter. Build some falc..etc.

Thanks
posted 08-24-09 07:48 PM EDT (US)     7 / 10  
i like the strat, and i think you have written quite clearly how to perform it. Only it is for a very specific situation

If you get rushed any clever person would try to make some cav when he notices u only have skirms. Most of the times a 2 unit combo or even a 3 unit combo is much more effective, so it is a good idea to use the stable you are building for some cav. It gives you the ability to raid and counter LI better (age 2 skirms suck ).

Also the moment when you decide to advance to fortress isn't when you have made 30 skirms, it fully depends on the situation and what your opponent is doing. Sometimes when you are already running out of resources, aging isnt a good idea cause you give up some map control. Sometimes you wanna go up earlier.

I like the idea of keeping your skirms at the back of the tc and using buildings to create pathing issues. This way you profit from the range of the skirms.

SUNIL IS NUB!!!

Battle.net:Bart (227)
ESO:Bart331
posted 08-27-09 07:16 PM EDT (US)     8 / 10  
@ Crazylunatic:

Well, I see what you're saying about sending 700 wood, but that would require an entirely different strat. If you send 700 wood, not only do you NOT have it later, but essentially, you spend it on things you wouldn't otherwise. You should be using that 700 wood for buildings other than banks, IMO, since you will be needing pop space by the time your second colonial shipment arrives, placer mines is a must for me, and a stable is required once you are in fortress, which is achieved with either the next card or, the card after that. I would just come up with a totally different BO for vanilla, since this one sorta revolves around the bank wagon for your economic advantage.

As for buying wood for houses and banks, I don't really do that until fortress. Until then, your gold income needs to be spent on skirms and villes, and it isn't fast enough with only 2 banks and probably 13 villes on gold to support that kind of gold trading.

Once in fortress, I typically send 9 ruyters as my first card, make 5 ruyters and a few (usually I can get 2-3 to come out of my art foundry, it's okay to buy wood for those cannons) falconets, Then push. If your opponent is cav heavy, however, I'll probably make 5 more ruyters and ship 7 ruyters before I attack. I'll also send 1000 wood once I have map control to put up any banks I have not yet, then send banks of rotterdam/amsterdam (maybe get mercantilism at church, I've done it). The key though, is to not let your cannons die. Once your cannons are dead, your army is effectively nullified and prone to LI. I'll try to keep a 2:1 ratio of ruyters to skirms, and usually have 3-6 falcs at all times. Don't be afraid to make a few culvs as well; those can be lifesavers, since you don't wanna sacrifice your ruyters to take out any culvs/falcs your opponent may have, which also exposes your cannons.

@ longbow56

Well, I always prefer FFing when I can, since it gives you a better eco, a great vet army, and more options. Usually, this happens on maps like siberia, orinoco, and painted desert (where there are some natural barriers). However, it's usually pretty likely that your opponent will rush you, so this is better for those situations.

@ Bart331

It's true, most players will make 5 hussars and ship 3 when they see your skirms (if they have that shipment). However, notice that I do include sending 8 pikes as an alternative to 3 huss, and that this should not be used vs. cav rushes. I admit, this strat has a cav weakness, but age 2 dutch in general has a cav weakness, so there's not too much you can do.

Yeah, I didn't mean 'when you have 30 skirms, age up.' I just meant that you age up with your 3rd or 4th colonial shipment, and usually, by then, I have 30 skirms. Don't use your military as a measuring stick, just know that you should be able to maintain a decent sized mass of skirms. Although, I disagree about not aging up when you need map control; that's often why you age up as dutch. You really have no spammable siege, unless you go pikes, which requires you to make a big compromise on your eco. Plus, even if you DID make pikes, pretty much everyone will have ranged HI or RI, both of which kill pikes if microed right. Building an outpost to defend a gold mine is a very very risky option for age 2 IMO, as wood needs to be managed very well with dutch, seeing as banks are usually high priority. Plus, even if you DID manage to see their units (probably cav) approaching, they'll follow you right to your TC; you don't have a counter to cav. I'd really try to find some alternative on maps that don't give you a second close silver mine to this strat (or a gold mine), since map control is a problem until age 3.

And yes, watching your opponent try to squeeze through your buildings while being fired on is quite humorous ^.^

Thanks

GR acc name: Ultraviolet [£eg¡øn]
'hey l0bst0r3r!! r u j3w!sH ?? c@n U t3LL m3 wH3r3 t0 g3t s0m3 k0sH0r r3c!p3s?
i l!k3 k0sh0r f00d th3r3's a j00ish r3st4ur4nt 4r0uNd t3h c0rn0r but it's s0 3xp3ns!v3'
-l33th4x0r
posted 08-27-09 09:15 PM EDT (US)     9 / 10  
Well, I see what you're saying about sending 700 wood, but that would require an entirely different strat. If you send 700 wood, not only do you NOT have it later, but essentially, you spend it on things you wouldn't otherwise. You should be using that 700 wood for buildings other than banks, IMO, since you will be needing pop space by the time your second colonial shipment arrives, placer mines is a must for me, and a stable is required once you are in fortress, which is achieved with either the next card or, the card after that. I would just come up with a totally different BO for vanilla, since this one sorta revolves around the bank wagon for your economic advantage.

As for buying wood for houses and banks, I don't really do that until fortress. Until then, your gold income needs to be spent on skirms and villes, and it isn't fast enough with only 2 banks and probably 13 villes on gold to support that kind of gold trading.
well i'm just suggesting to spend the 700 wood on a bank+ some other things instead of what you said. Trading gold--> wood is quite cost effective for the first couple as dutch and lets you get some more banks up which really gets your eco rolling. Banks are 4.5 vills so 2 banks + ~7 vills on gold gives you plenty of gold that you can trade in for houses/banks/whatever.

QUACK
posted 08-27-09 09:29 PM EDT (US)     10 / 10  
Oh, I see. Yeah, that could work. I'd only do that on a map where you either start with 2 silver mines or a gold mine though, since not only are you spending around 380 gold buying the 300 more for a bank (you'd cut 50), but you are also buying 400 more food when you decide to age up, which will cost around 535 gold. So you spend 900 more gold in the end. I'd consider it vs, say, ottos (assuming you survived the rush), because you know they aren't catching up to you economically anytime soon, s you can spend that extra time in age 2.

GR acc name: Ultraviolet [£eg¡øn]
'hey l0bst0r3r!! r u j3w!sH ?? c@n U t3LL m3 wH3r3 t0 g3t s0m3 k0sH0r r3c!p3s?
i l!k3 k0sh0r f00d th3r3's a j00ish r3st4ur4nt 4r0uNd t3h c0rn0r but it's s0 3xp3ns!v3'
-l33th4x0r
Age of Empires III Heaven » Forums » Strategy Central » Dutch Defensive Skirms
Top
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register
Hop to:    
Age of Empires III Heaven | HeavenGames