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Topic Subject: Musket Cossack Rush
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posted 10-31-09 00:35 AM EDT (US)   
Here it is folks, the strategy that puts Russian misconceptions to shame.

It is the Russian Musket-Cossack Rush
Maths in Italics

Why make this strategy?
Well, first off, it is my main strategy with Russia. Secondly, I was looking through my little strategy collection and noticed that the RUMM Rush (~like a variation of this strategy~) is based off of Nilla.

So What’s the big idea?
Well, I know that in these forums, before I started stating otherwise, everyone thought ‘Russia is weak to cavalry’. Now why is this? Well, mainly because strelets are trash against cavalry and Russian muskets are weaker…
But are they really weaker?

Well we all know that Russian Infantry is weaker. But they also cost less.

A batch of 5 musketeers regularly costs 375 Food and 125 Gold, while a batch of Russian musketeers costs 281 Food and 93 Gold. 281/375 = 93/125= 0.75; meaning Russian musketeers cost 75% as much as regular musketeers do. Russian musketeers are 80% as effective as regular musketeers as well. To the naked eye, this shows a 5% advantage over regular musketeers, but oh no, our maths are not finished quite yet. We need to get 0.75 back to one. So 0.75 *4/3 = 1 and 0.8 * 4/3= 1.066. So Russian Musketeers (and Halberdiers for that matter) are 6.66% more effective than their counterparts. Also, as another advantage, it is marginally harder to micro against Russian musketeers with RI that hit and run, because if you focus fire on one musketeer, the Russian will technically be losing less of his army and less resources than other musketeers would lead you to lose. That is, until those dreaded falconets come around. I swear they have a hidden bonus against Russian Infantry. Anyways. This proves Russian Musketeers are better than Regular Musketeers, squashing Russia’s ‘ineffectivity’ against cavalry. But why stop here…? If Russian musketeers are better, why not just go all the way with it? Let’s make a rush comprising of mostly musketeers!


Now what is a great unit in combination with such musketeers? Rule out strelets because they seem to be magnetic with cavalry, and you have but one option yet. The Cossack. That ‘inexpensive’ 1 population horse that is MEANT for stockpile-resource laming. But how does this pony compare to the European Hussar? Hussars cost 120 Food 80 Coin, totaling to 276 Villager Seconds. Cossacks cost 75 Food and 75 Coin, totaling to 214. 214 is around 77.54 percent of 276, so they cost 77.54% as much. Cossacks have 225 HP, 26 Hand, and 30% Range Resist. Hussars have 320 HP, 30 Hand, and 20% Range Resist. 320*77.54% = 248.128, which is the HP 77.54% of a Hussar would have, which is 23 more than a Cossack. 30*77.54% = 23.262 is the Hand Attack 77.54% of a Hussar would have, which is 3 less than a Cossack. Then you multiply the differences by the multiplicative inverse of the equation (or something like that) which is 1.289 (100/77.54). 23*1.289 is 29.66 and 3*1.289 is almost 4. So Cossacks have 9.26% less HP, but 12.89% more Hand Attack, all per villager second... If you are still debating, let me introduce Cossack’s secret weapon… an extra 10% Range Resistance. Hussars have 320*1.25 (1/.8) = 400 Range HP. Cossacks have 290.33*1.429 (1/.7) = 414 Range HP, which is a nifty 3.5%. So as results, Cossacks have 12.89% more Hand Attack and 3.5% more Range HP, but 9.26% less Hand HP, with all other stats being virtually unimportant to the job of cavalry (siege). I would take Cossacks over Hussars given these percentages.
This proves that the Musket Cossack Rush is actually better than the Musket Hussar Rush some other European civilizations may have.
Now that the calculations are over with, let’s move onto the Basic Build Order



Deck

Required Cards
Distribivutism
5 Cossacks
4 Cossacks
700 Food
700 Coin

Highly Advised Cards
Boyars
Advanced Church
Infantry Training Cards
Factories
2 Falconets
6 Oprichniks
1000 Wood
Land Grab
Schooners (Water)
Strelet Combat
Fort
13 Strelets
Cavalry Combat

(You will have to choose between some Age 2 cards)



Discovery
All five villagers to their own food crates.
Mash that V-Button
Once food is collected move 1 villager to a food crate task other villagers to food.
Pop some villagers out of the other side of your TC is need be to save some villager seconds.
Collect treasures in this priority: Wood, Food, Coin, Exp; depending on your starting crates and personal play style. If you’d rather get your troops out ASAP after you age, gather food treasures after you’ve clicked the age up button. If the speedy age up is your thing, then strive for them before that time. Wood should always be first, unless you’re playing Texas or a high crate map. You should put Coin over Food if you didn’t start with a Coin crate.

First Card: Distribivutism

Keep queuing villagers till you population reaches 14/20.
You will have idle TC time in at this point. Don’t worry about it.
Click the age up button once you reach 800 food.
Age with the Quartermaster: 400 Wood

Transition
If you started with 1 Wood crate, move ~6 villagers to wood. If you started with 2 Wood crates move ~3 villagers to wood.
Send 3 villagers to a forward location, preferably in the center securing either a mine or a hunt. Once arrived, put these villagers on wood.
If you started with no Coin crates, then you need to put 3/4 villagers on coin in transition. If you started with one, you can leave villagers off of coin for now.
Herd. No explanation needed I hope.
Once you have 250 Wood, place a blockhouse down with your forward villagers. Put all Wood villagers on Food.
Aim for 93 Coin and as much Food as possible by the time you age up.

Colonial
Queue a batch of villagers up (do this before you age, preferably)
If you are close to being able to, queue a batch of musketeers (you should have you blockhouse up or close to up by now). If you are unable queue them soon (need more than 100 Food) skip this for a bit.

Second Card: 5 Cossacks. You need to send this after you queue the muskets, because if you make a batch of villagers then send the Cossacks you will have 22/25 population: not enough. Same with making the villagers then the muskets, except you can still send the shipment with this population. If you cannot queue a batch of musketeers soon, then send this ASAP.

Collect your age up wood.
Build 2 houses and a stable in your base. The stable is in your base because cavalry moves fast enough and you don’t want to risk it getting destroyed by a harder rusher.
Redistribute your villagers to 10 Food, 4 Coin, all outgoing villagers to Food, if they are not already.
All of the above steps should be done as quickly as possible once hitting colonial. Set some hotkeys if need be.
Right after the batch of villagers and musketeers come out (sometimes you’re lucky and this won’t happen) you will have a choice between a batch of villagers and muskets. Choose whatever fits the situation best. Though that is usually villagers.

Third Card: 700 Food or 4 Cossacks. If you need more infantry, send 700 Food, if you need more cavalry, 4 Cossacks. That simple. Usually 700 Food though, since it can also ease your villager production.


Right about now is when the build order stops. You’re going to want to keep making military obviously, but your army can have a lot of variety just based off of how you place your outgoing villagers. But this is always good information to have…



Fourth Card Options

700 Coin: Can’t seem to outmass your opponent? Use upgraded units! Use this card to age to the fortress age, preferably with the Cossack/Strelet Politician, and use the veteran upgrades and cards like 2 falcs to win. This card is also great for making Cossacks, as it eliminates the Coin cost for almost 10 Cossacks.

Boyars: For if you are making a mainly Strelet/Cossack Army. Obviously purely to make these units stronger.

13 Strelets: Though this isn’t a ‘great’ shipment, it can be really surprising. One of the greatest ‘surge’ shipments in the game. Imagine. Your opponent you have a Musket Cossack army and decides to counter it with muskets. 30 seconds later, you have 23 strelets. In other words, it is amazing to send this shipment and create a batch of strelets at the same time, since it gives your army almost perfect diversity.

700 Food/4 Cossacks: Still viable shipment if you have not sent them already. Though if you want more Cossacks at this point, I prefer sending 700 Coin. Then again, some people like to make things besides Cossacks with their Food. 700 Food is still good, but again, most of the time already sent.



That’s about it. It’s actually pretty versatile. Though you are limited to Muskets and Cossacks for a minute or so upon hitting colonial, you can actually start mixing in strelets pretty early if you change your outgoing villagers to wood or be really aggressive so that you don’t need to spend wood for housing. Anyways, I’m going to try to make some kind of harder-hitting rush and a booming approach, since the Russia I’m used to playing always uses a rush-while-boom approach.



~Sincerely, O_man0

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
Replies:
posted 10-31-09 00:59 AM EDT (US)     1 / 57  
very nice, are you in precal?

ESO: Fuzzy044
Rank: Master Sergeant lvl 17 OP!!!!
YOU ARE SMALL!!!

1X1 is nice
posted 10-31-09 01:31 AM EDT (US)     2 / 57  
I'm going to try it. And it's basic algebra, precal goes into trig and linear algebra, if I remember right.
posted 10-31-09 01:31 AM EDT (US)     3 / 57  
kewl!
very nice, are you in precal?
a bit random?
anyway precal is for nubz , the real men take calc

QUACK
posted 10-31-09 04:34 AM EDT (US)     4 / 57  
wow thats a lot of math involved.

anyways what I get from this in lamemens terms is that you are suggesting to stay away from strelets, have a food+gold eco pump musks/cossacks and only use wood to get houses?

IMO this sounds like russias best option. your army "should" be more effective due to this math, and as an added bonus the eco will allow you to age sooner then pumping batches of strelets.

and its so true that strelets are a magnet to cav. I just bashed a russian because 10 strelets and 5 cossacks get pwned by 2 skull knights+WC and 5 coys. that means i didnt even need a batch from the rax yet to pwn him, but if he would of went muskets first, different story, different game outcome (maybe )

and early on, keeping strelet production up without getting housed is hard, the 10 unit cue at once kills you. 5 musket is much better balanced IMO and more aimed towards rushing.

A Top 500 1v1 sup player (when i feel like it )
ESO NAME : DrizzyDrops PR:21 2nd Lieut.
Clan: Triple Entente

visit my detailed stats
My Recorded Game Archive"Believe you can, Believe you can't...... either way your right"

[This message has been edited by DrizzyDrops (edited 10-31-2009 @ 04:36 AM).]

posted 10-31-09 07:40 AM EDT (US)     5 / 57  
tbh you don't need all that maths, bottom line is that it is just as easy to get 5 musks out from any other civ as it is russia (early game), so effectively you have weak musks.

The time when your cheaper musks come into play is when you have got multiple bhs hopefully with fast train cards, spamming constant musk. Because your musks are cheaper you are able to massively out produce your opponent presuming your ecos are near equal or yours is better.

So all the maths is irrelevant at the early part of the game which your bo details.

Having said all that its a nicely written bo, which i know works as i use a very similar thing myself

Mudkips did 9/11 - The way I see it is, I'm playing this game for the fun of it, not to prove that I have a fiery E-wang of doom.
posted 10-31-09 09:54 AM EDT (US)     6 / 57  
yeah strelets are way too hard to make in the begining unless you are NVRing. Once you have the housing space, its fine, but for right when you age up its meh.

And Russian muskets train faster too, I just couldn't find the times.

And I'm in Algebra2/Precalc with Kyle

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
posted 10-31-09 10:53 AM EDT (US)     7 / 57  
Don't forget Pabby, and SANKELP fwoooosh...!

Is it really okay to have only 45 pop space as Russia, or does the wood trickle cover housing needs by itself?

ESO2: Kyle_The_Brave
Clan: Proud Officer of Trỉρℓε ΣņτễηţϠ, [TΣ]

"Why make your own inspirational quotes when you can just read the side of O_Man's Ssips juices?" - A wise prophet
"The best way to die is to spontaneously combust during a drum solo battle with Lars Ulrich" - The Blair
posted 10-31-09 11:28 AM EDT (US)     8 / 57  
yeah for the most part, if your not making strelets, the wood trickle has your housing. Maybe thats just me because im really aggressive but yeah.

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
posted 10-31-09 12:07 PM EDT (US)     9 / 57  
Im in geometry/algebra 2 and im only in 8th grade . decent rush, but hope you know that it isnt better than british hussar/musk, as they can outmass you because of better eco. And if you try to age to 3 they will hammer you. Other than that great job, is a very good unit combo but <NVR ^^

DISTISOP
ESO: Blitzkrieg_Mario
Prefered civs: Hell, I like them all.
Rank: TWC PR 18 (master sergeant) TAD PR 17, Vanilla PR 12

Clan: Triple Entente
Favorite games: Dofus, AoE 3, Tremulous, CoD 4, SSBB, Urban Terror
posted 10-31-09 02:45 PM EDT (US)     10 / 57  
IMO even if you are going strelet/cossack you should still make a batch or 2 of muskets with your starting gold/treasures so you aren't housed as quickly and have to wait for a house to make your 1st batch of strelets.
posted 10-31-09 06:24 PM EDT (US)     11 / 57  
im about to rick roll whoever did this to the forums lol...i no longer wnna be a backup dancer

A Top 500 1v1 sup player (when i feel like it )
ESO NAME : DrizzyDrops PR:21 2nd Lieut.
Clan: Triple Entente

visit my detailed stats
My Recorded Game Archive"Believe you can, Believe you can't...... either way your right"
posted 10-31-09 06:43 PM EDT (US)     12 / 57  
LOL suckors, i'm still veteran musketeer!111

QUACK
posted 11-01-09 00:08 AM EDT (US)     13 / 57  
outmassing isnt an issue with british. I'll get things out just as fast, and with cavalry faster as well. Since i'll be agressive, I try to contain him and kill as many vils as possible, lowering his eco advantage, while heading to fortress with 700 Gold as my fourth card: Smashing him with 2 falcs and veteran musketeers.

the 9 cossack, 15 musket semi if you will.


And NVR may have a harder initial push but I can gurauntee you that if played right this can overtake it. simply because the out-eco and stable in the begining is trouble.

And agreeed. This Michael Jackson theme thing is ridiculous not righteous.

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
posted 12-30-09 10:54 AM EDT (US)     14 / 57  
Great strat! i use it heeps but with the 2nd card, i found 700 coin is better because u can get that 1st batch of 5 cossack queued in the stable, plus the 5 cossack shipment. i usually attack once i have 10 musks and 10 cossack with the other 4 cossack from shipment coming along. OP strat!

cossack r the golden unit
posted 12-30-09 04:57 PM EDT (US)     15 / 57  
Interesting, the only factor not mentioned in your math is that with a 6.66% more effective per vs musk, you are also taking up more pop space per equal attack of a standard musk, which IMO, almost cancels out any bonus. I guess the relative pop-efficiency of cossacks negates this a bit, but in my experience, they tend to get flattened by other cav (except steepes, lol). This strat is of course perfectly fine, its just that IMO the troops aren't really better than their equivalents, they are just different, ie the overkill/underkill thingy works more in your favor if your opponent is focus firing on your low hp units. Nice write up though, I will try as I currently suck with Russians.

ESO:ChrisTheMean
N3O Clan Website
Of myChinese Confucian Confusion FF MarneusCalgar said, "It sounds like an 70's kung-fu movie." And it is.
posted 12-30-09 07:44 PM EDT (US)     16 / 57  
depends on whom you do it- mixing in some musk or cossack is better than nvr vs otto ff for sure.
posted 12-30-09 07:54 PM EDT (US)     17 / 57  
You forget, the blockhouse gives 5 population, which gives you a nice pop bonus, which aids the Russian Musket problem you talked about.

Im working on some really strong pure HI rush to counter Otto Spahi FF's. So far I can get out 35 muskets by 7:30, and 40 Muskets and 13 Strelets by 8:00, which fairs sort of well, especially against Spahi, and you can send 5 Cossacks instead of the strelets for abus he may send.

As for the strat, it basically resembles my entire TAD career, so I can tell you it works somewhat.

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
posted 12-30-09 07:54 PM EDT (US)     18 / 57  
The pop-effectiveness of russian muskets means nothing until you reach the population cap, and as you pointed out, the cossacks make up for the pop-weakness of your infantry, so the end result is a very number-happy army. The only REAL drawback of Russia is the Strelet, which, while cheap, is horribly ineffective for its population cost.
posted 12-30-09 09:35 PM EDT (US)     19 / 57  
The pop-effectiveness of russian muskets means nothing until you reach the population cap, and as you pointed out, the cossacks make up for the pop-weakness of your infantry, so the end result is a very number-happy army. The only REAL drawback of Russia is the Strelet, which, while cheap, is horribly ineffective for its population cost.
well you have population caps throughout the entire game that's why you build houses. 7 pop of russian musks break even with 5 pop of regular muskets = more houses. However as Oman said the 5 pop from BH is quite nice. Also even though russian infantry is pop ineffective, the fast training and extreme cost effectiveness makes russian units quite good

QUACK
posted 12-31-09 04:57 AM EDT (US)     20 / 57  
Im working on some really strong pure HI rush to counter Otto Spahi FF's. So far I can get out 35 muskets by 7:30, and 40 Muskets and 13 Strelets by 8:00, which fairs sort of well, especially against Spahi, and you can send 5 Cossacks instead of the strelets for abus he may send.
musk/cossack works fine vs spahi ff imo, just mass, harass and kill houses, make sure he has hard time gathering his 1000 food.

SUNIL IS NUB!!!

Battle.net:Bart (227)
ESO:Bart331
posted 12-31-09 01:00 PM EDT (US)     21 / 57  
Yeah but I can usually never get out enough muskets in time. Then the spahi and my army basically cancel out and he's in fortress. I'm not. So I'm ditching the unnecessary cossacks for full musket, 2 blockhouses, which is how I get 35.

1st Leiut. with Russia , Master Sergeant with everything else.
My skill level is incalculable!!! Its been forever since I played seriously...
Mike Sass: Culverins are like Garrichistos, only theyre cannons.
posted 12-31-09 01:47 PM EDT (US)     22 / 57  
I have a problem with this strategy, in particular this particular step:
Discovery
All five villagers to their own food crates.
Mash that V-Button
I'm mashin' that V button, but nothing happens. ?


(On a more serious note, it's a good write up, simple, standard and solid. Good job.)


By the way, if you're feeling bad-ass, gather some wood and other resources and get the market ups. You'll be slower but in the long run you'll get Russia's late colonial mass effect and that, my friend, you don't want to play against.
posted 12-31-09 05:58 PM EDT (US)     23 / 57  
playing otto i generally ff vs russia and if they do the usual strelet rush i'm ok 75% of time, recently someone did this to me- sent over 5 coss straight off to harry, followed by strels to force garrison he then went musks, when my spahi popped out he ran off strels and got his musk between ny spahi and his strels and manouvered me around, when my cannons popped out he ran in his coss on them andgot his musk between my spahi and cannons so i couldn't save them more musk came in and it was gg- 3 units> 2 units

i'm far from a great player but this was way harder for me to deal with than straight strel spam vs spahi ff
posted 12-31-09 08:37 PM EDT (US)     24 / 57  
lul Incy do you ever check the mentor/mentee section?

ESO: Fuzzy044
Rank: Master Sergeant lvl 17 OP!!!!
YOU ARE SMALL!!!

1X1 is nice
posted 12-31-09 10:12 PM EDT (US)     25 / 57  
I have to disagree on your strat for one reason, you use muskets and do not use strelets.

I can easily overcome it with my personal russian strat. (I play on TAD).

The resources don't play much on the battlefield, what's important is your army overcomes the enemy and keeps growing.

Our powers resides on strelets and cossaks and our ability to mass these, I counter cav with even more cavalry rather than weak musketeers.

I believe the musket is Russia's taboo, until you can fort hop (4th age, far away from colonial), while the strelet is the only unit who can deal with infantry and the cossak is a must have unit. Russia depends on masssing men and blockhouses.

Now if you make cossaks and strelets, you can't siege, that is a big weakness, but Russia does not need to siege, just overcome his opponent's army and economy, that is easily done by building blockhouses near hunts and hunting while trying to keep your opponent away from resources.


I also find the 4 cossak card unnecessary, the crates are much more useful and 4 meaningless cossaks just delay those useful resources.

I'd like to go against your start in a friendly game later on if that is ok with you.

The Gods have left us, therefore making the old world crumble and turn into ashes...

But as the gods return, from the ashes of the old world, shall rise a more beautiful and powerful new world, and life will begin once more, if they hadn't closed...dang you ES.
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