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Topic Subject: The India Tower 'o Doom
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posted 11-06-09 04:39 PM EDT (US)   
T.I.T.D.

Introduction:

Well let's get down to business. India is a cool and unique civ, and even if they're downright OP on RE, they're still fun to play. In fact I don't have any problems laming India hardcore on RE, if people want to play a balanced game:

www.agesanctuary.com

Keep your damn flames and tears for yourself, since India isn't OP on the FP. Note that I'm kind of writing this strat so more people will lame India and make RE lame and get more people on the FP. ^^"

The strat I'm going to teach here is a pretty good strat imo. Though let me warn you, my India experience is pretty limited, so this may or may not be the best strat they have, I have more strats and tricks to pull out of this fun & unique civ. So forget Agra, forget 12 Sepoys in your opponent's base before 5 minutes, forget the greedy map control you had (I'm saying this because i got beat by a total nub with agra ), I've got better stuff.

Part I:

Early Macro:

Aging with India is a strange thing by itself. If you're going to do a 10/10 it's not hard, it can be a little trickier to macro if you're doing a "better" age up. You have 6 starting vills, so 2 go straight to the wood, 3 gather wood crates (yes Indian Villehs cost wood), and 1 dude goes to the first hunt. Something that I noticed with India is that they don't need a lot of food or coin... I'll get back to that later.
Anyway, you put the 3 crate vills on wood once they've gathered all the wood/food crates, and your TC way point is the hunts. The first vill you make however goes to wood, or you won't get constant vill production. Then again the game I just played, I put only 5 vills on wood (it worked fine). It's up to you. Make one house. So with 6 vills on wood, rest on food, 1 house, you continue gathering food till you can age. If you're doing 6 vills on wood and you get a wood treasure, you can take one off wood and put him on food, you'll age faster. Note, there isn't really an "amount of vills" you age with, you just age when you have the food available.
You'll get a shipment here, your first shipment should be the wood trickle card. I'm learning India with a 20 level HC, so I'm using a wood upgrade.

Wonder & Vill allocation

You'll notice the strange title. Yea, fruit Agra!! You're aging with the Tower. It's a very good wonder. You'll use the 400w it gives, and the inspiration being used in the middle of a key fight in the game... is cool.

Anyway since you're not 10/10, you're going to age a lot later than if you did 10/10, so put 4 vills on the wonder. I'm still wondering if I should put less, feel free to experiment with what you feel is cool. After that I put a handful of food vills on wood, something like... 9? Yea 9 vills on wood should be nice. This will let you get some nice vill production and a house. All vills go to food. Maybe some on coin if you don't have a lot of coin from treasures. You should age at around 4.40, which is "late" but still pretty reasonable.

Part II:

Early Macro

Ok so now you've aged. During your age up you should have..idk. A number of vills, probably around 19. I put 8 vills on wood, 4 vills on coin, and the rest on food. Use the 4 coin vills to gather the 400w, and use them to build 1 house and 1 rax. When your rax is up you can queue either a Sepoy or Gurhka. If you're feeling weird I guess you can go for the Rajput. Anyway a strong combo with India for me is Sepoy/Sowar (like Musk/Hussar), so queue a Sepoy! Another combo you could use is Gurhka/Zam and use the 4 Sowar shipment, then once your eco is better go for Gurhka/Zamb/Sowar. It's some strong combo that, having colonial RC is great! I might recommend switching from Sepoy/Sowar to this combo later in the game. Up to you. Remember to complete the counter circle if you can. ^^

Note: you can put less than 8 vills on wood if you have the trickle card, I forgot that I don't have that card yet, so you should be able to put more vills on other resources besides wood.

Second Shipment

When your shipment comes, send 600w. Gather that and then make a Carv...thingy (stables for camels), a consulate, and some houses. Oh and one market, and get the upgrades. Asian upgrades aren't expensive and aren't hard to get, I also think that you should research the 4th tech (more expensive, but boost all gathering for all resources) in priority to the others, so as to boost your wood gathering.
You should be making Sepoys, you can halt the production a bit and make Sowar instead as of now, from your stable. With your consulate, I recommend you ally with the Brits. Their consulate musks go quite well with your Sepoys later (they won't be avaible immediately), and the early 10% HP boost is pretty good. If you can I guess you can try to queue some Sepoy with your Sowar, as your eco will be better than the one I'm using atm. Watch housing.


Third Shipment & What to do with your army

Your third shipment... ahh what a choice. India has a trump load of great colonial cards. Here is a screen of the deck I'm using:



At this point I would go either 5 sepoy or 4 Sowar. Depends on what your opponent has (SCOUT!). If he has an HI or Cav heavy army, go for Sepoy, if you see lot of RI, definitely Sowar. Balance your army as you see fit. 4 sowar have the bonus of being able to raid well, so don't hesitate if he has some crappy hunts or hasn't herded well. I wouldn't recommend the Camel Cards (attack and upgrade) just yet. Maybe you could send the wood trickle, I don't have it yet, so idk.
At this point in the game, go out and try to do some damage. If you're unsure how to approach, go raid and try to get a look at what he has and what his combo is. Be aggressive but be careful. It might even be best to delay a full out fight until after you get the Camel Cards or the consulate Musks. But if you have the possibility, ofc you push.
Important:Don't forget the Tower! I didn't name this strat TITD for nothing. When you fight that crucial fight that you've both engaged in (with your Sowars in there fighting and your Sepoys right there shooting), go ahead and use the Tower wonder. Your units will be boosted for that fight, and that boost isn't nothing. Your army will do more damage, last longer, and be able to catch up retreating armies better. Make sure you don't use the wonder ability when you're just skirmishing though, it would be quite a waste to use that game-winning bonus when you're just killing 5 strays bows.
Another very effective thing you can do is use your monks in combat. Preferably you put them in a 4th control group and have them attack RI. They will soak up a lot of damage, damage RI (not a lot though, but anything goes), and they might even trample. Your enemies units not fighting for even a second is great for you, and it can give you a slight edge. Use the monks! They're also good for preventing armies from retreating. And hey, if they die, it's no problem.

Conclusion

Try to send the Camel Cards asap, they are excellent cards. 300 export can be useful, and there Dravidian Martial Arts card that boosts all your unit's melee attack, which can be a rather nice bonus to Sowar, and makes Sepoys better vs Cav. Don't forget the wood trickle. 600c can be used to age, but it can also be used to make Camels.

I also want to make sure that people who read this guide understand I have still a lot to learn with this civ, so make sure you play around with vill allocation and your macro to what you're good with, there may be some errors.

There might also be better strats out there, but hey! Have a good time laming, I'm quite open to suggestions and other things to try (being in the experimental stage with India). Good luck, have fun, hope you enjoyed reading this.

Here are links to two recorded games using this strat. More to come if I get any recs.

TITD vs Otto: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=2670

TITD vs Indian Mirror: http://aoe3.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=2671

[This message has been edited by A414A_Incog (edited 11-08-2009 @ 04:19 PM).]

Replies:
posted 11-06-09 05:10 PM EDT (US)     1 / 36  
This is very similar to what I do as India when I don't 10/10 lame. They're actually a pretty flexible civ and very fun to play. Thanks for the detailed write-up!

ESO2: Kyle_The_Brave
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posted 11-06-09 07:32 PM EDT (US)     2 / 36  
Nice to see a write up for an indian strat

some questions i have:

-isnt the gather rate boost thingie wonder also a viable option for colonial play with india?

-isnt the otto consulate the better option?, the huge los it gives is really great and it also has a nice 4 villie tech

-how many vills do you age up with? and how late do you reach age2?

-your gameplan is to stay age2 and just see what happens?, just like a brit or a spain colonial strat?

-how do u defend early rushes? since u age late and use first colonial shipment for 600 wood.

-do you know how large the bonus is that the tower gives in battle?

SUNIL IS NUB!!!

Battle.net:Bart (227)
ESO:Bart331
posted 11-06-09 07:39 PM EDT (US)     3 / 36  
Detailed? Allot of it is just "well i dont know allot about this civs so you make the carav..... the stable thingie, I dont know much about vil alocation, and you should have, idk, a number of vils. Rather vague but yes you got the idea of strong but not lame india build.

First off, FP suxs. the bad things about sioux are neer addressed and their 1 decent unit was nerfed along with siege dance. Iros arent very good, and with the TP being 250 wood, the weak ottomans are now the weaker ottomans. It has just as many problems as RE, and only balances the civs they thought needed change (few things were good, nerfing india/iro) but thats about it. Promoting it is like promoting people to play yugioh over pokemon, theyll never win cuz pokemon is awesomer^^.

DISTISOP
ESO: Blitzkrieg_Mario
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posted 11-06-09 09:55 PM EDT (US)     4 / 36  
to bad india doesn't get a chance to play anyways on RE.

if i choose them, I get booted.

If someone is playing them 1v1 in a game i joined, I leave. Simple as that.

why offer myself to get lamed? lol you already know its coming. No matter what i've done vs india it gets lamed. You can't FF them because they have all hard counters in age 2 (gurka, Zamb, sepoy is anti everything...) and then when they FF you they have a ridiculous option to have 1000+ HP ani inf eles with a healing monk, some "ranged" melee infantry that pwns stuff it really shldnt...7.5 speed melee cav, ahh u could go on and on about how lame india really is.

but anyways the tower only equals a diamyo on your army for 20 seconds. if it gives bonus to speed and hp also then maybe its worthwile age 2, but its recharge time is rediculous.

too bad in real life the sounds of guns and cannons wld scare stupid ele's away.

and im going to stay away from the fan patch.

A Top 500 1v1 sup player (when i feel like it )
ESO NAME : DrizzyDrops PR:21 2nd Lieut.
Clan: Triple Entente

visit my detailed stats
My Recorded Game Archive"Believe you can, Believe you can't...... either way your right"

[This message has been edited by DrizzyDrops (edited 11-06-2009 @ 09:59 PM).]

posted 11-06-09 10:32 PM EDT (US)     5 / 36  
I agree with Drizzy. When someone joins with India, I just get this tired feeling, like when your brothers kids are running around and won't shut up, but they're family so what can you do? It's the same feeling for me when I was a conscript and someone who was level 29 joined my game. It's not that you can't win, but seriously, it's ridiculous.
posted 11-07-09 00:57 AM EDT (US)     6 / 36  
When I lame India I do it in quicksearch. With the PR rate on 15 and the tier thing on 2, I don't wait long at all for a game. However I get players from Sgt to Colonel. ^^

To answer to FP flames...
First off, FP suxs. the bad things about sioux are neer addressed and their 1 decent unit was nerfed along with siege dance. Iros arent very good, and with the TP being 250 wood, the weak ottomans are now the weaker ottomans. It has just as many problems as RE, and only balances the civs they thought needed change (few things were good, nerfing india/iro) but thats about it.
Sioux are supposedly among the weakest but still very competitive, BR, AR, Cetans are all fine, as are Wakina, so idk what you're talking about. Iro are also fine on the FP, and while Otto "need" fixing they're better than the broken civ they are on RE. A Pr40 guy called "Kiljardi" used Otto in a tourney recently, so they can't really be that weak.
Basically, don't talk about things you don't know. :/

Anyway, India is very lame on RE (they aren't on FP).

@ Bart, I'm still in the experimental stage (which is why you don't criticize my strat for being vague!):
-isnt the gather rate boost thingie wonder also a viable option for colonial play with india?
yea i saw smurf use it in a tourney game on FP, you could use it as well, but you'd have to tweak your build
-isnt the otto consulate the better option?, the huge los it gives is really great and it also has a nice 4 villie tech
I hesitated using them, but I can't with a level 24 HC yet. I would indeed try them out.
-how many vills do you age up with? and how late do you reach age2?
Can't answer either question, I just age when I have the resources...
http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameStats.aspx?loc=en-US&GameID=913ed58c-1d14-418d-8ee3-963f27cf8f72&sFlag=2 &md=ZS_Supremacy
Apparently at 4.40 with 19 vills. Without wood trickle. ^^

-your gameplan is to stay age2 and just see what happens?, just like a brit or a spain colonial strat?
yea, and india's colo is insane, can be fun
-how do u defend early rushes? since u age late and use first colonial shipment for 600 wood.
Vs rush civs I actually just agra, it's weaker in the long run but I'd rather not take chances. so if I'm vs Iro or Otto, i just agra wihtout thinking.
-do you know how large the bonus is that the tower gives in battle?
nope.. i'll try to find it, i know it's just good!
I'll try to edit with more accurate info later.

[This message has been edited by A414A_Incog (edited 11-07-2009 @ 00:58 AM).]

posted 11-07-09 01:45 AM EDT (US)     7 / 36  
Yes, Bart, I think Karni Mata is a viable alternative to the Agra Fort if you're not going to use the 10/10. You're not going for the insane rush, so waiting a bit longer to crank out your first pile of Sepoys isn't much of a sacrifice. The 200 wood pays for your barracks right away, and the 200f/100g is far better than 2 free sepoys in my book. One other thing: The Karni Mata's bonus to gather rates is to total, not base gather rates, so it scales well throughout the game.

French or Ottoman consulate are both far better than Britain, imo. The vast LOS is incredibly valuable, and the 4 settlers are a great shipment, and the french crates are nuts. The 10% hit point bonus is nice, make no mistake, but the actual shipments and armies are nothing to write home about.

The boost from the Tower of Victory is +15% to attack and hit points and 10% speed for 15 seconds. That's base statistics, not total, unlike the bonuses for Mansabadar units. The cooldown is 7 minutes and 30 seconds. The 400 wood from the Tower is nice, though, I'll admit.

Some comments on the strat:
The first vill you make however goes to wood, or you won't get constant vill production.
This is dependent on whether you can grab any wood treasures. Grabbing even a 40 wood treasure can get you through colonial on only 5 woodcutters.
posted 11-07-09 08:25 AM EDT (US)     8 / 36  
15% Combat? That's pretty good. 15% combat is something like a French Cavalry combat card for 15 seconds. Some would argue that the fact it's only for 15 seconds suck, I say however that if you time your wonder right, it can be devastating. Use the tower in 15 most critical seconds of the game. I'd say that the tower bonus is strong, but not lame/broken. However I should definitely experiment with Karni Mata. Something I don't quite like is how the bonus is for one area only, so you have to put the wonder nearer to hunts and mines for it to be viable, and still keep in mind that it's best to put out somewhere in the "open", in case the game lasts longer and you need to switch to Paddies. Thanks for the advice though. ^^

Anyway once I get Otto consulate available I'll give them a try. The LOS could indeed be very interesting and it's something I wouldn't mind trying. However I believe you only get 3 hussars for 400 export? That's not all that impressive, but if you spend your export on the vills it might be Ok. Guess Otto are the economic solution, compared to the Brits. I'm not sure just how useful French crates could be, I don't think they will be that good but I'm open to experimentation. What is the French passive bonus? As for now I'm going to stick to my 209 HP Sepoys. I also like that Sowars are a little more durable, which is something I quite appreciate.

As for the treasure thing, I noticed that as well. I'm always quite pleased to find a good wood treasure. I recommend you go 6 vills on wood and then switch to 5 if you get the wood treasure. I'll edit that.

Btw Mario, don't criticize this for being vague. You should realise that it is quite possible to play the game without using "cookie cutter" builds. Keep that in mind. ;/
posted 11-07-09 09:39 AM EDT (US)     9 / 36  
Nice strat, and yes I did enjoy reading it.

This is a good change from the usual 10/10 (which most people will probably expect from an India player).
Guess Otto are the economic solution, compared to the Brits.
How ironic...

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posted 11-07-09 10:20 AM EDT (US)     10 / 36  
Finally an india topic

does anybody know how well elephants perfom in comparison with their "normal" counterparts. mahout vs sowar and zamburak vs howdah.

Especially with the elephant combat card and the cheaper elephant cards, maybe some elephant ff can work out really great.

Also how viable are the mansabar units from the wonder? is the bonus worth it?, i always use that wonder when aging to fortress for the mahout lancer but is it also good to train the mansabar units?

SUNIL IS NUB!!!

Battle.net:Bart (227)
ESO:Bart331
posted 11-07-09 01:58 PM EDT (US)     11 / 36  
As far as I know, both the Mahout and the Howdah are strong units. Ofc I have yet to experiment with them fully. I know that before ES1.01a, Howdah were OP. They got nerfed as of now, but I'm pretty sure that they're still a strong unit. Quite expensive though. With elephant combat they could be very viable I think, but I have yet to try. Mahouts have 1000+ HP, and I think they have 33x1.5 vs RI with area, which counters them... hard.

Then again Sowars can have 20 attack with 30% attack, x2 vs RI, 15% attack, and 20% HP/Attack (veteran status, to compare with Mahouts in Fortress). That's like.. 33x2 vs RI. No area though. However they're pretty easy to mass. Please note though, you need 3 cards for Sowars to get that amount of attack, whereas I'm pretty sure Mahout get 33x1.5 without cards or upgrades.

Basically Camels and Elephants are insane. ^^

As for Mansabdar, I'm not sure. I usually age with the Taj Mahal, the cease fire can be handy and you get so much coin. Mansabdar are probably worth it though. Take the Sepoy for example. 180f and 60c for a 10%? HP boost for all your sepoys. And your dude can fight. I think it's probably worth it... I think I'll start aging with that.
posted 11-07-09 02:16 PM EDT (US)     12 / 36  
camels speed needs to get nerfed. they are just as effective as other civs cav against RI, but yet they have more speed.

not fair.

lame.

A Top 500 1v1 sup player (when i feel like it )
ESO NAME : DrizzyDrops PR:21 2nd Lieut.
Clan: Triple Entente

visit my detailed stats
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posted 11-07-09 02:29 PM EDT (US)     13 / 36  
The mansabadar units are good for your low-population units, so basically everything you'll build 10 or more of should have them. They're twice the hit points of a normal unit for twice the cost and twice the pop, but their damage is the same as a normal unit.

As for elephants, they're slower but far stronger. I'm a huge fan of an elephant-centric India. Combine Mahouts and Howdahs with a strong backup of Gurkhas, and you've got a combination that's very hard to defeat. You can pull off a convincing India semi-ff with the help of the French Consulate, Good Faith and Intrigue, sort of a India-flavored version of the GoFF. This is pulled off best on maps with a trade route so you can send Trade Empire first.
posted 11-07-09 02:32 PM EDT (US)     14 / 36  
Drizzy:
In fact I don't have any problems laming India hardcore on RE, if people want to play a balanced game:

www.agesanctuary.com

Keep your damn flames and tears for yourself, since India isn't OP on the FP.
Jackal, can you explain this sentence a little better:
You can pull off a convincing India semi-ff with the help of the French Consulate, Good Faith and Intrigue, sort of a India-flavored version of the GoFF. This is pulled off best on maps with a trade route so you can send Trade Empire first.
Oh and what is the Mansabdar's aura?
posted 11-07-09 02:57 PM EDT (US)     15 / 36  
how does india compare with china? I hear they have trouble vs. them? is this true?

ESO: Fuzzy044
Rank: Master Sergeant lvl 17 OP!!!!
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posted 11-07-09 03:26 PM EDT (US)     16 / 36  
Why would they have trouble vs China? On FP maybe, on RE I don't think India has trouble vs any civ.
posted 11-07-09 04:26 PM EDT (US)     17 / 36  
Basic discovery, much like your Tower o' Doom strat, age up with Karni Mata. You want to plant that such that you can cover a good clump of trees and a mine or two. Send Trade Empire for your first shipment and grab a nearby Trade Post. In transition, bump up a few more choppers, 8-9 is good. Split the rest of your gatherers between food and wood in a 3-2 split. Put down a barracks and a consulate when you hit colonial, and send Diplomatic Intrigue with your second shipment, which should be waiting for you from transition. Start cranking sepoys from your barracks to defend yourself/harrass your opponent. 10 or so ought to serve, but don't be afraid to stay in Colonial and slug it out if your enemy is being very aggressive. When Intrigue Arrives, ally French for 25 export. Send Good Faith Agreements for a 40% discount on the French Crates, and you should be able to send all three of them, which should be enough to get you 1200/1000 for Fortress. I like Chaminar Gate. Once you've hit the Age-up button, put down a caravanserai and some more housing and get ready to send Tame Elephants, and begin cranking gurkhas from the barracks. You'll also want to pump up your chopping operation, elephants are house-hungry, plus the mahouts cost wood themselves, and then you'll probably also want to plant a second or even a third TC.

This setup leaves you pretty flexible in terms of your options, the crates can either be used to build troops in a pinch or slingshot you into fortress where mahouts, howdahs and siege elephants can really round out your army.
posted 11-07-09 04:36 PM EDT (US)     18 / 36  
Interesting strat. Not sure if it would work vs a very aggressive opponent since it would be at a disadvantage until you get elephants, and even then... but hmm. Could work, not sure though.

It's not very lame though. ^^
posted 11-07-09 07:52 PM EDT (US)     19 / 36  
very noble cause, now let me read the strat

cool sounds fun to lame
anyway what's your opinion on age 3 howdah card, worth it or not? i notice you put age 3 zam shipments instead?

QUACK

[This message has been edited by crazyLUNATIC (edited 11-07-2009 @ 07:55 PM).]

posted 11-07-09 09:32 PM EDT (US)     20 / 36  
If you've sent Desert Terror and upgraded your Zams to veteran, the 9 zam shipment is far better for a cavalry counter. IMO, if you're going to lame elephants, send Tame Elephants and build them locally. If you just want to ship troops, send the zams.
posted 11-07-09 10:25 PM EDT (US)     21 / 36  
If you've sent Desert Terror and upgraded your Zams to veteran, the 9 zam shipment is far better for a cavalry counter. IMO, if you're going to lame elephants, send Tame Elephants and build them locally. If you just want to ship troops, send the zams.
hmm ok. IMO locally building eles is not a great idea unless you really badly need them (lots of artillery). Also, if you like building eles, I recommend you go with brit consulate since that packs on an extra 100+ HP to them LOL!111

Also about the wonders, taj mahal is definitely the best choice if FFing while agra is probably best if rushing, but i'm sure this tower thingy is fine lame also
IDK about karni mata, but i think i saw mayhem go with it in a 2v2 for zam/sowar spam i think.

QUACK

[This message has been edited by crazyLUNATIC (edited 11-07-2009 @ 10:27 PM).]

posted 11-07-09 11:43 PM EDT (US)     22 / 36  
So what do you do vs. china as india? 10/10 or gurhka/zamb
or sepoy/gurkha or sepoy/ sowar what?

ESO: Fuzzy044
Rank: Master Sergeant lvl 17 OP!!!!
YOU ARE SMALL!!!

1X1 is nice
posted 11-08-09 00:29 AM EDT (US)     23 / 36  
^ IMO 10/10 the sucker and send 4 sowar fast to beat his 8 CKN. China has a slower age up time so if you go fast you can perhaps nail him XD

QUACK
posted 11-08-09 06:41 AM EDT (US)     24 / 36  
i am pretty sure if you manage to beat his 9 ckn and destroy one of his villages he has a serious problem. China should probably go 300 food to age in time.

SUNIL IS NUB!!!

Battle.net:Bart (227)
ESO:Bart331
posted 11-08-09 07:32 AM EDT (US)     25 / 36  
Howdah is probably a great shipment, but Zams are lamer. Howdah on the other hand have more range. I think both units are very viable. Either way both counter cannons nicely. The Siege elephants shipment I underestimated, but they're actually quite helpful if you're facing falcs, and once those are dealt with, they're very nice for picking off buildings from far away. A fortress mortar and culverin in one. It's better than it sounds.
When using either Howdah or Siege elephants though, be careful when facing big RI armies. You'll find that they are prime targets for focus firing.

Vs China I would go Gurhka/Sowar with a handful of Zams or Sepoys for anti-cav, which to say about 5 of either unit. Let's remember that Steppe are poopie. Gurhka out-range Ckn, so if you have a good enough number, you can skirmish quite well with them (hit and run) and Ckn will simply fail. Sowars are a must have vs China. When you upgrade them with the Camel Cards, they're going to counter Ckn, extremely hard. China's only hope vs Sowar is pikes, and pikes get owned so easy by Gurhka. Keshik even worse. China's best colonial unit is the Ckn anyway, so you're better off making a counter to that (Sowars) and not making what Ckn counter (Sepoy). I'd say India owns this match up hard, China sucks on RE and India is the best civ. Careful though, make sure China doesn't get the chance to mass.

10/10 could work, but since I got beat by an Otto nub who I Sepoy rushed, I hate the strat. ^^
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