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Topic Subject: Age of Empires III "Colonial Resistance" Expansion Pack
posted 10-27-05 05:10 PM EDT (US)   
I assume some one has already posted this up but I couldn't find it, so here's what I would like to see in the AOE3 Expansion with some background first.

Some back ground:

Age of Empires III covers the age in which the biggest holocaust in the history of humanity took place - the entire peoples of the western hemisphere (one half of the planet).

I found the campaigns in aoe3 to be very unique in its story line with a tinge of justice, saving enslaved Mayans and Caribs, etc. But it speaks to one human truth proven by history. Freedom can never be given it only be taken - Franz Fannon. This explains the racist dynamic of the game where the Native Americans are only caught in between and can only be saved by a good colonizer - where there is no opportunity for the Mayan to resist the Spanish with out the help of the Scottish Mason and European Pirates. This explains Iraq, where the United States finds itself in a quagmire trying to render them "freedom". The Native Americans, Mestizos etc, since the beginning of conquest have always tried to ally themselves with other colonizers and then would find themselves still subjugated.

It was only during campaigns of revolution with a united indigenous front (and second class mestizos much of the time) that freedom from foreign powers was relatively won. For example the Untsuri Suara of Eastern Ecuador crushed colonialism so bad that no foreign power ever dominated them until the modern Ecuadorian military of recent times. The Suara never seeked "help" from any foreign powers or even locals. On the other hand in Puerto Rico, during the revolution against Spain, they used the United States (who had just declared "Manifest Destiny") as an ally and found themselves and still find themselves as a US "territory" with no voting rights for President and over 30 military bases and recent political assassinations.

In short, it is not enough to allow a European power to ally itself with Caribs, Mayans, Cherokee etc. These first nations must speak for themselves! They lost horribly but they did not loose without war (and disease). Major war worthy to be focused on in the world of Age of Empires. It is those major wars and immense regional conflicts that concluded in global human and environmental changes which affect us till this day, that I would like to see represented in the next expansion pack.

To be included would be represented over 3,000 maroon societies, where escaped Africans, Native American holocaust survivors, and whites who were disgusted with the realities of colonialism lived together and at many times found themselves engaged in long term armed conflict with Status Quo Colonial powers. These societies existed during the entire age of empires in the what is called the "new world" from the perspective of the colonizers.

You can say that I am emphasizing a focus on the perspective of "resistance" and "revolution" - the perspective of the Native Americans and the Mestizos. A world where Simon Bolivar is just as important as Washington; the People of Chiapas who have been fighting conquest for 5 centuries even up until this day, the Maroons, the empires of the Mayans, Aztecs, Incas and the major North American nations, Caribs, Mexico, Colombia all represented as players - maybe some only when the campaign is beaten. These are all histories and legacies that deserve their voice in Age of Empires just as equally as the Nations who annihilated all of the nations of three continents into near extinction.

Campaigns:
The empires of south America were only conquered by the Spanish because the Spanish united all the surrounding smaller nations into revolution against the Mayan, Aztecs Empires, etc. In reality the Spanish were militarily nothing and powerless in the "new world" and only won by being able to effectively divide people and take advantage of the current oppression from the Mayans and Aztecs, by inciting revolt. It was only later that these smaller nations realized that they would be enslaved and subjugated even worse by the Spanish in ways they would have never imagined.

Maroon societies found themselves in the middle of this and were also the outcome of these conflicts. The first historically accepted successful revolution against a colonial power ever in the history of the Americas is known as the Haitian Revolution (I argue the Suara of Eastern Ecuador). Anyways, the Haitian revolution was started by these Maroon societies, with women "heroes" that can be characters in the game for a better gender dynamic.

With this alone many exciting stories can come to play, all the people at Microsoft need to do is pick one. Also, the market is expanded to South America and racial and gender concerns are answered, because AOE3 as it is, is pretty condescending to the ancestors and cultures of people who still suffer from post-colonial woes, inequality, poverty, general human rights abuse and social injustice. It should not also have to be this way in the fantasy world of video games. Plus, think about how damn fun it would be to be a Maroon society stealing all of the citizens and pioneers, or Simon Bolivar and the Plains Indians fighting Mexico and the United States cavalry, or being a Maroon society fighting Napoleon in Haiti, or being the Apache fending off the Spanish, then Mexico and then the United States, or the demise of the Natchez by fighting with the French and other Native nations seeking refuge from the Creek and Chickasaw. What about the major Mayan revolts where they maintained liberated territory with Native American Governments for decades fighting off Spanish and British and sometimes even both at a time? Jesus, the stories from this perspective of "resistance" in the age of imperial conflict of the Americas are too much to ignore! Seriously.

Civilizations: (Many to choose from)
Mayans
Aztecs
Incas
Chipewyan
Cree
Kuskowagamiut
Cahuilla
Crow
Hopi
Navajo
Mesquakie
Iroquois
Natchez
Cherokee
Oneida
Cheyyene
Apache
Arowaks
Zapotecs
Tzeltal
Tzotzil
Tipu
Itza Maya
Colombia
Mexico
Peru
Atleast two or three Maroons
Atleast two or three smaller nations of the amazon (ex. Untsuri Suara)

Ages:
The same as in AOE3

What do the rest of you think? I think game designers can have allot of fun with this. Let these civilizations speak for themselves - they were as a peoples the most negatively effected during the eras dealt with in endless adventures encountered in Age of Empires III. They were there and their warriors and armies fought gloriously.

[This message has been edited by CheTzu (edited 10-27-2005 @ 09:18 PM).]

Replies:
posted 10-28-05 06:08 AM EDT (US)     1 / 28  
I wqould like to play as the civs but there is 30 or 32 I mean just the civs but take up a GB or more and AOE focuses on the good aspects so that is why I do not think it would happen.
posted 10-28-05 12:48 PM EDT (US)     2 / 28  
Of course, I put way too many civilizations. That is why it says, "many to choose from". This is a brainstorm in process. I want to leave the AOE developing team some shoulder room to come up with their own creative way to represent these peoples properly. It is important to note that in these ages the biggest genocide of humanity took place which beat the Atlantic Slave Trade in death of innocent lives. A gig dedicated to 1,000 nations would be the least.

The expansion pack has no where to go but indigenous, so here is what I think would be crucial for that maximum experience of the these ages addressed in AOE3.

The idea here is to have the indigenous peoples of the following regions represented:
North America
Meso America
Deep South America
Caribbean
Maroons
and 1 to 3 Mestizo Countries contemporary to United States during colonial and industrial eras

The previous list were only examples of who can represent these factors.

So its two main things I'm arguing for; Native and Mestizo civilizations as players, and a focus on the perspective of "resistance" during this period.

The name by itself is guaranteed to take gaming to whole new levels in rpg war emulation and imagination (let alone the world wide sells) - Age of Empires III: "Colonial Resistance" Expansion.

It would be the first of it's kind. I feel the world waiting, don't you?

posted 10-28-05 04:24 PM EDT (US)     3 / 28  
I agree that Colonial Resistance sounds good, but i beg to differ on the rest of the thread.

Firstly, the wars between colonial powers and native Americans were more like massacres. If this were to reflect in the game, it would offend many people. On top, there's the fact that most NA war training and technology was inferior to the colonial powers'.

ES must have thoroughly thought about including the NA before building the game. I trust they made the right choice

Feel free to write up what you like, but I doubt that native Americans will become playable civs in the expansion.

What I would like to see however is Independance. Another forummer (can't remember who exactly, sorry) suggested that after a particular age, an "Independance" upgrade becomes available, giving bonuses to the player, but relieving him of the HC. This would fit nicely with "Colonial Resistance"

Also, Venice, Sweden, Belgium and Austria should become playable civs


★★★★★
posted 10-28-05 06:17 PM EDT (US)     4 / 28  
Just curious, but what benefit would come from being "relieved" of the home city?
posted 10-28-05 06:35 PM EDT (US)     5 / 28  
I would rather prefer a Victorian-WWI expansion, with new units for the already present civilisations. Slaughtering Caribs with steam-powered airships - now that is colonialism :P

[This message has been edited by KaiserChickenPT (edited 10-28-2005 @ 06:37 PM).]

posted 10-28-05 10:05 PM EDT (US)     6 / 28  
Shala, you only appear to make a good point. Unfortunately they are based on some common misconceptions due to centuries of ignorance and the simple fact that the winner is the one who writes our history. I'm not being condescending, I'm saying that your misconceptions are common. These wars between native Americans and Europeans were not at all massacres. You could have not been more wrong about that.

The Native American archer benefited from greater speed between arrow shots, accuracy and mobility as compared to their European enemies. Spanish rifles in the age of conquest were vastly too slow and took way too long for each shot to be effective against Incas and the Mayans. The Spanish armor were personal torture chambers giving fungus, heat strokes, and immobility in the jungle.

The massacres happened through massive outbreaks of European disease not war.

You have to understand that Incas, Mayans and Aztecs were empires who were oppressing scores of smaller nations. The Spanish effectively united these smaller nations to revolt against these well established empires. That is how it went down, don't get it twisted.

Do you remember the campaign on the fall of Tenochtitlan in the Age of Kings expansion? I highly recommend that you read about that war before you pass judgment on almost 1,000 nations not being viable to defend themselves. Here are some facts that will shake your understanding of history. And let's use the fall of the great Aztec city of Tenochtitlan as an example, since Age of Kings dealt with it.

1. Disease killed over 90% of the population in Tenochtitlan.

2. And after that, they still kept the Spanish and tens of thousands of armed Native American soldiers at bay for 11 months! They were times when they took the city back from Cortez for months and chased his armies and Native allies away. Obviously the Aztec's were a viable foe to the Spanish.

3. The Spanish would have never won a single war if it were not for the tens of thousands upon thousands of Native Americans taking this opportunity to revolt against the Mayans, Aztecs and Incas. The plaque weakened the Aztecs and allowed for the Spanish to return after they were BEATEN IN WAR BY THE AZTECS.

4. The Mayan, Inca and Aztec people were easily subjugated into slavery because they were used to imperial rule, corruption, class-ism, kings and law. It was impossible to enslave the smaller nations of the amazon because they never had to put up with such structured authority. The Spanish just couldn't conquer them with all of their technology and cannons. Most notable of them were the Untsuri Suara of Eastern Ecuador.

5. If the Native Americans did not put up a good fight how do you explain half a millennium of war? (ex. Pontiac Massacre where every single white person west of the Appalachian mountains were killed, or the Cholula Massacre where the Spanish used the Tlaxcaltecas to trick the Cholulans to come unarmed to a place where they were ambushed to extinction).

Shala, I could go on and on. You are very wrong about the Americas. Not only that, it is immoral to assume such things. Had it not been for the Tlaxcaltecas, the Spanish would have been kicked out of the Americas easily without any real competition with only 10% of the Native American populations.

That was the reality.

Yes many massacres did happen, but they were upon unarmed civilians at celebrations and gatherings or while children, women and elders were migrating for the lives. But in war, the Native Americans stood their ground and had it not been for disease, I am confident that things would be different.

Lastly Native Americans were already represented in Age of Kings, so why cant they be represented now? As you can see based on historical fact, the Native American nations can definitely rise against colonialism in Age of Kings III.

In terms of training and technology, the Native Americans had great advantages like no fog of war (it was their land), they adopted European technology quickly, they had numbers, they were faster at shooting, they had better suited agriculture techniques for the region, siege weapons, they always had the potential to unite with other native American nations instead of allowing the Europeans to unite with them. The Spanish WOULD HAVE NEVER STOOD A CHANCE if they did not use rival Native American nations to fight their battles (ex. Tenochtitlan).

That was just one example. And I stand corrected, the expansion pack for Age of Empires III should be dedicated to the amazing saga of "Colonial Resistance" because the game right now is dedicated to "Imperial Colonialism". Resistance at this point is only just.

Here are some suggested readings:
"The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of Conquest of Mexico" - Leon-Portilla
"Guns, Germs, and Steel" - Jared Diamond
"The Legacy of MesoAmerica" - Carmack, Gasco, Gossen
"This Land Was Theirs: A Study of North American Indians" - Oswalt, Neely
"The Jivaro" - Harner
"Blood Ties" - Greenberg

[This message has been edited by CheTzu (edited 10-28-2005 @ 10:11 PM).]

posted 10-29-05 05:00 AM EDT (US)     7 / 28  
Ok I agree with you CheTzu (by the way history was not written by the victorres with the mongols) and I would like to see them as a playable civ, but off-topic the aztec, mayans, and incas had suprior technology.
posted 11-29-05 05:52 AM EDT (US)     8 / 28  
Hey, this idea is awesome!

Property is theft! Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

There is no human institution that approaches totalitarianism as closely as a business corporation. I mean, power is completely top-down. You can be inside it somewhere and you take orders from above and hand 'em down. Ultimately, it's in the hands of owners and investors. Noam Chomsky

An Anarchist Faq|Infoshop

posted 11-29-05 06:24 AM EDT (US)     9 / 28  
CheTzu, you are a man of like mind. I love this idea. Being Apache and Navajo, I would love to see Native American civilisations, and see Natives being treated as powers in the game, and not just people that throw away their lives for you because you built some stupid little house in their village. That no fog of war idea is excellent too, only there should be the black, but all the map should be explored to them at the beginning, and knowing the land their units should have the best LOS of all civs.
posted 11-29-05 01:03 PM EDT (US)     10 / 28  
How on earth does knowing the land give you a large LOS.


EDIT: spelling.


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[This message has been edited by Joeking14 (edited 11-30-2005 @ 12:41 PM).]

posted 11-29-05 07:23 PM EDT (US)     11 / 28  
I would like to play as Mexico, or one of the many South American nations which overthrew the Spanish in the 1820s.

Also, maybe the game's time period should be stretched to about 1890, so you could play as the Sioux defending your homeland against encroaching soldiers and settlers.
posted 11-29-05 09:02 PM EDT (US)     12 / 28  
The only problem with this, is that there were no Native American emprires, other than the Aztecs, the Incans, the Mayans, and several other Meso-American civilizations. As much as the Aztecs and Mayan EMPIRES should be represented in the game, much like they had been in AoE2, all the other Native American tribes, such as the Yahi and the Seminoles, weren't empires. Therefore, I don't believe most of the Native American and Meztizo civilizations you want represented should be put in.

"You load sixteen tons and what do you get?
You get one day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store"-Ernie Ford
posted 11-30-05 00:13 AM EDT (US)     13 / 28  
The Comanche? The Iroquois confederation? Both held massive amounts of land and despite not having massive "cities" per say, both had considerable amounts of power.
posted 11-30-05 03:15 AM EDT (US)     14 / 28  

Quote:

The only problem with this, is that there were no Native American emprires, other than the Aztecs, the Incans, the Mayans, and several other Meso-American civilizations. As much as the Aztecs and Mayan EMPIRES should be represented in the game, much like they had been in AoE2, all the other Native American tribes, such as the Yahi and the Seminoles, weren't empires.

The Huns didn't have an empire either, yet they got in AoEII.


Property is theft! Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

There is no human institution that approaches totalitarianism as closely as a business corporation. I mean, power is completely top-down. You can be inside it somewhere and you take orders from above and hand 'em down. Ultimately, it's in the hands of owners and investors. Noam Chomsky

An Anarchist Faq|Infoshop

posted 11-30-05 12:42 PM EDT (US)     15 / 28  
Underpants Man Can I point out the Huns did have an empire.

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posted 12-01-05 04:25 AM EDT (US)     16 / 28  

Quote:

Underpants Man Can I point out the Huns did have an empire.

Not exactly a very civilized or developed one at that.


Property is theft! Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

There is no human institution that approaches totalitarianism as closely as a business corporation. I mean, power is completely top-down. You can be inside it somewhere and you take orders from above and hand 'em down. Ultimately, it's in the hands of owners and investors. Noam Chomsky

An Anarchist Faq|Infoshop

posted 12-01-05 11:53 AM EDT (US)     17 / 28  
It is still an empire.

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(> < )This is bunny. Copy bunny into your siginature to help him on his way to world domination!
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posted 12-01-05 01:28 PM EDT (US)     18 / 28  
posted 12-02-05 05:43 AM EDT (US)     19 / 28  
"Firstly, the wars between colonial powers and native Americans were more like massacres. If this were to reflect in the game, it would offend many people. On top, there's the fact that most NA war training and technology was inferior to the colonial powers'."


Red Cloud defeated the United States. The US sued for peace after being repeatedly trounced.

Transference of technology/munitions came about in many ways, including the Natives taking it by force, with inferior technology.

The Osceti Sakowin (Sioux, which included the Lahkota) need to have their own civ. At the height of their civilization they had far more land under their control than most of the 'empires' represented in AoE 3.

It's a complete sham the only people to actually have defeated the US cannot fight for themselves, in their own land.

Too bad the white man could not keep his word after sueing for peace. :P


Great post throughout CheTzu.

posted 12-02-05 11:06 AM EDT (US)     20 / 28  
AMSEC The native americans were not the only people to have defeated the US.

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posted 12-02-05 07:14 PM EDT (US)     21 / 28  
Well, being as this isn't a political forum, I won't bother debating you on your presumed point.


However in the case of the Sioux they acquired a total victory and got the US to concede to everyone of their demands/requests.

Red Cloud did what no one else ever could before, or since.


Now, do you have any points pertaining to the topic, or not?

posted 12-03-05 05:04 AM EDT (US)     22 / 28  
The Seminoles did the same thing, in fact a fair bit of Florida is still Seminole lands. The US also lost the Vietnam war so saying Red clound is the only person ever to defeat the US is wrong on for several reasons.

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posted 12-03-05 11:07 AM EDT (US)     23 / 28  
Again this isn't a political forum.

But people like you want to drag it down to that level.


Vietnam lost? Technically perhaps, as in the end communism gained control of the south.

Were we defeated? Nope. We simply left an unpopular undeclared 'war', we were not forced out by anyone other than our own people and world opinion. We didn't even declare war on the north, if we had vietnam would resemble the Korean peninsula we see today.

The only people to lose that war were the south vietmanese.


Show me documentation of exactly what the seminoles did.

Nearly every tribe in the US still has land.

None other than the Sioux FORCED the US to comply to every single one of their demands.

However, if they did it just furthers the argument that the natives deserve to have at least one civ in AoE3.

posted 12-20-05 02:35 PM EDT (US)     24 / 28  
Name one European scoiety where EATING PEOPLE was considered socially acceptable.
posted 12-20-05 04:01 PM EDT (US)     25 / 28  
England cosidered eating people to be socially acceptable.

Also, CheTzu, the Mayans suffered from civil war, or something of the like, not Spanish invasion. The Mayan Empire ended in the Ninth Century, a good several hundred years before the Spaniards come.


"You load sixteen tons and what do you get?
You get one day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store"-Ernie Ford

[This message has been edited by Captain Snackbar (edited 12-20-2005 @ 04:01 PM).]

posted 12-21-05 09:39 AM EDT (US)     26 / 28  
The problem with this is that if we were really to have the native americans fight the colonizers it would be like Pontiac's Rebellion, eventually ending in failure. I have no problems with this, I am a fan of the indeginous peoples, but I don't think this could work out unless suddenly you changed history and made the Amerindians uber.

Cosmopolitan? Check.
posted 12-28-05 05:34 AM EDT (US)     27 / 28  
Quite simply, it sounds like it should be a completely different game.

However, I'm all for adding more native tribes in the expansion pack (in particular the Navajo, why aren't they in the game already?).

posted 01-04-06 01:22 PM EDT (US)     28 / 28  
Very interesting topic, and I really like this idea. Regarding gameplay, I was wondering how the home city would be implemented into all this. Would the native americans still get shipments, or would other bonuses (no fog of war, etc) compensate for this?
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