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Topic Subject: Chinese Inclusion for the Age of Empires III Expansion -- (Civilization Ideas)
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posted 12-02-05 00:28 AM EDT (US)   
I started discussing the appearance of the Chinese for Age of Empire III's expansion in another thread, but I wanted to make this its own topic so that people can read through it and build on the idea.

You can read this thread to see the reasons WHY I believe China is a good choice for Age of Empire III's expansion (ideas begin on page two of that thread; check all of my replies if you're interested). I won't list the reasons why I believe China is a good choice here. I just want to discuss them as a civilization, not why.

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-------------------------------------------

CHINESE INCLUSION

FOR THE

AGE OF EMPIRES III EXPANSION

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Table of Contents:
* Civilization Bonuses
* Chinese Economy
* Chinese Military
* Military Training Locations
* Unique Units
* Unit Comparisons
* Unique Cards
* Unique Technologies
* Royal Guard Technologies
* Civilization Weaknesses
* End Notes

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-------------------------------------------
Civilization Bonuses:
Home City Ruler: Nurhachu (Kundulun Khan)
Royal Guard Units: Yong Shi and Cavalry Archer.
* Starts the game with +2 settlers but -2 food crates.
* Temples (Chinese version of Churches) will already have access to their unique technologies (they won't have/need the card that grants this).
* The Chinese have more unique technologies than any other civilization in the game.
* Arsenals can train Skirmishers, Grenadiers, and Yiwofengs in Age 3. Academies (Chinese barracks) can only train archaic units. Artillery Foundries can also train Grenadiers (like normal), and Yiwofengs.

(See "Civilization Weaknesses" below, for any concerns of balancement.)


Chinese Economy:
China's economy will start off rather fast with their +2 villager/-2 food crate bonus. They will be able to receive Settlers from Home City shipments, but they will not have access to any of the basic resource shipments (no 300 food/wood/coin shipments). China will also have no access to cards that improved hunting. Their strength will be in gathering from mills, plantations, and livestock pens.

China's economy is suitable for rushing and booming strategies, but may be weak at turtling since they will be using an archaic army in the Colonial Age.

To compensate for China's fast start, unique units will be more expensive to train, making their fast rushing capabilities not so overwhelming to other civilizations. The price of unique units also balances their excellent economy from early game to late game.


Chinese Military:
Regular Chinese units are Crossbowmen, Halberdiers, Grenadiers, Cavalry Archers, Hussars and Skirmishers. China didn't widely use rifles or cannons in their armies until around the 1600's (they already had the technology long before this), and even then, it didn't start to catch on until the 1700's. (They had small arquebus-like weapons during the times that the Europeans had perfected their muskets and rifles.)

They did use rockets though.

China used rockets to defend against the Mongolian hordes, and against the Manchus, so they will have [three] rocket units. The rockets weren't used like the congreve rockets of the British. Instead, the rockets were attached to arrows and launched out of baskets or siege engines. Rockets-arrows were also lit and shot from bows so that the rockets would launch in mid-flight and propell the arrow farther and faster than they would normally go and added to its penetration power. (See "Unique Units" below.)

An AOE3 version of the Chinese gives players a nice, flexible army with lots of counter units. (See "Unit Comparisons" below.)


Military Training Locations: (See "Unique Units" below for unique unit descriptions.)

Home City [Card Only]:
- Huo Che (250 Coin, 4 Pop; Age II)

Academy:
- Zhuge Nu (60 Food, 45 Coin, 1 Pop; Age II)
- Yong Shi (30 Food, 50 Wood, 1 Pop; Age II)
- Halberdier (50 Food, 70 Coin, 1 Pop; Age III)

Stable:
- Hussar (120 Food, 80 Coin, 2 Pop; Age II)
- Cavalry Archer (45 Food, 115 Coin, 2 Pop; Age III)

Arsenal:
- Grenadier (120 Food, 60 Coin, 2 Pop; Age II)
- Yiwofeng (70 Food, 100 Coin, 2 Pop; Age III)
- Skirmisher (50 Food, 65 Coin, 1 Pop; Age III)

Artillery Foundry:
- Grenadier (120 Food, 60 Coin, 2 Pop; Age II)
- Yiwofeng (70 Food, 100 Coin, 2 Pop; Age III)
- Falconet (100 Wood, 400 Coin, 5 Pop; Age III)
- Culverin (100 Wood, 400 Coin, 5 Pop; Age III)
- Mortar (100 Wood, 350 Coin, 5 Pop; Age IV)

Factories:
- Heavy Cannon (No cost, 7 Pop; Age IV)


Unique Units:
** Yiwofeng: Artillery infantry. Yiwofeng or "Swarm of Bees" are equipped with bamboo or iron baskets, which was like a smaller version of the cannon, that had arrows with rockets attached to them. The arrow rockets would shoot out of the baskets like bullets out of a gun would. They have a range almost as long as longbowmen due to the propulsion of the rockets. (See links to articles for more information at the bottom of this thread.)

[Has a strong, penetrating attack. Good at dealing with infantry.]

** Huo Che: Artillery engine. The Huo Che or "fire cart" shoots rocket-arrows at a fast pace (like a faster version of the Yiwofeng) dealing heavy amounts of damage to groups of infantry. -- These units can ONLY be obtained from the home city!

[Has an area effect of 3. Good against infantry and buildings.]

** Zhuge Nu Light infantry. The Zhuge Nu, or Cho-Ko-Nu, was a "repeating crossbow" that fired arrows in a semi-automatic fashion. The weapon was wildly inaccurate, but created a spread effect that shot arrows out much like a shotgun (though fast, like a machine gun). Due to its low pentrative strength (and relatively low damage to flesh), the arrows would often be tipped with poison. The box at the front was the magazine where the arrows would drop down from. According to an article (links are at the bottom of this thread), it was still being used even in recent (Ch'ing) times. (If you've played AOE2, you'll remember this weapon.)

[Arrows do low damage in large area. Zhuge Nu are particularly good at dealing with infantry, but their bonus is small since they fire so many arrows.]

** Yong Shi: Heavy infantry. This spear and crossbow wielding warrior replaces both the pikeman and the crossbowman. These units have lower hitpoints and damage output than normal pikemen and crossbowmen, but are cheap and have the ability to be massed quickly. The way these units work, is that they spawn in melee mode, which is their pikemen attributes. They can be switched to use their crossbows by selecting volley mode. These units, of course, are much like Musketeers.

Their stats are as follows:

First available: Colonial Age
Cost: 30 Food 30 Wood, 1 pop
Hitpoints: 80
Speed: 4.5
Resists: 20% vs Ranged (when in volley mode); 10% vs Hand (when in melee mode)
Melee Mode Attack: 6
Melee Mode Range: 0
Melee Mode ROF: 1.5
Melee Mode Bonus: x5 vs Cavalry
Ranged Mode Attack: 12
Ranged Mode Range: 16
Ranged Mode ROF: 3
Ranged Mode Bonus: None
Siege Mode Attack: 12
Siege Mode Range: 0
Siege Mode ROF: 3
Siege Mode Bonus: None

[Good against cavalry in melee mode. Good against infantry in volley mode.]

** Long Zhou: Replaces the caravel. These "Dragon Boats" launch rockets instead of cannons to set enemy ships aflame.

[Has a special broadside attack that launches five rockets at once. These vessels can also gather fish/whale.]


Unit Comparisons:
Since the Chinese have two archer infantry, two spear infantry, and two artillery infantry, I would like to explain their differences as to make them relevant for entry into the game. Even though the Yong Shi plays both roles as spearman and bowman, it should be compared to other units to show why they are still important to the Chinese even though they have units that are better than them.

Yong Shis vs. Zhuge Nus:
- Yong Shi are cheap and train faster than Zhuge Nus can be trained.
- Zhuge Nus are more expensive (cost a little more than Musketeers--60 Food and 45 Coin) and train a little slower than Musketeers.
- Yong Shis have lower hitpoints and attack than Zhuge Nus, but they can be easily massed (like that of the Russian Strelets, except Yong Shis cannot be trained in blocks of 10).

Yong Shis vs. Pikemen and Halberdiers:
- Yong Shis are cheaper and weaker than Pikemen and Halberdiers in melee mode. They stand up better to Pikemen and other infantry in volley mode, but they may still die quickly since they have low hitpoints.
- Yong Shis are cheaper to train than Pikemen and Halberdiers. Massing these units make up for their negative properties.
- Halberdiers are stronger normal pikemen and, but they're slower. They deal more damage against buildings and cavalry than both Yong Shi and Pikemen.

Grenadiers vs. Yiwofeng:
- Grenadiers are better against buildings than Yiwofengs, while Yiwofeng are better against killing infantry.
- Yiwofengs are a little more expensive than Grenadiers and deal less siege damage to buildings. Also, Yiwofengs have a lot lower resistance to artillery fire than Grenadiers, so artillery can easily put a stop to them.


Unique Cards:
* Early Halberdiers: (Level 25) - Halberdiers can be trained in Age 2.
* Improved Rocketry: (Level 10) - Huo Che and Yiwofeng deal more damage.
* Improved Fusing: (Level 10) - Huo Che and Yiwofeng have slightly increased rate of fire.
* Improved Spearmen: (Level 10) - Increases Yong Shi and Halberdier hitpoints and [melee] attack.
* Established Dyarchy: (Level 25) - Cuts the price of "Dragon Storms" and "The Emperor's Dozen" unique technologies. ("Dragon Storms" is now 1000 Coin, and "The Emperor's Dozen" is now 2000 Food.)
* Filial Piety: (Level 25) - Allows you to support +10 population.
* Manchurian Horse Archer Training: (Level 15) - Prequisites: Cavalry Archer shipment cards. Cuts the coin cost of Cavalry Archers by 20% (making them 45 Food, 92 Coin).
* Feather Boxes: (Level 25) - Gives Zhuge Nus an increased shot capacity and grants access to their guard and imperial technologies.
* Dynastic Restoration: (Level 1) - Ships a factory cart to the New World.
* Self-Strengthening Movement: (Level 10) - Prerequisite: "Dynastic Restoration" card. Ships a factory cart to the New World.
* More...

Note: China cannot obtain factory cards. They may only obtain a factory by researching one of their unique technologies. (The upside to this weakness is that China can obtain a total of three factories. -- See "Civilization Weaknesses" below.)


Unique Technologies:
* Tenant Farmers: (1000 Wood; I) - Settler limits on Mills and Plantations increased to 15.
* One-Thousand Spears: (No cost; II) - Allows archaic units to train 10% faster, but move 5% slower.
* Tributary State: (300 Wood; II) - Prerequisite: "Tenant Farmers". Ships three small crates of food, and three small crates of coin.
* Scholarly Exams: (1000 Food; III) - Ships you another explorer.
* Dragon Storms: (2000 Coin; III) - Ships four Guard Huo Che and upgrades all existing Huo Che to Guard status.
* The Emperor's Dozen: (3000 Food; IV) - Prerequisite: "Scholarly Exams". Ships 12 Manchu horse archers.


Royal Guard Technologies:
* Jing Yong Shi: (1000 Wood, 1000 Coin; IV) - Yong Shis are upgraded to Jing Yong Shis with +20% hitpoints and attack.
* Qin Cavalry Archers: (1000 Wood, 1000 Coin; IV) - Cavalry Archers are upgrade to Qin Cavalry Archers with +20% hitpoints and attack.


Civilization Weaknesses:
* The obvious weakness of the Chinese is that they have to rely on mostly archaic units until they reach the Fortress Age.
* Huo Che, China's strongest early-age anti-infantry artillery can only be obtained from the home city. They can ship an infinite amount, but the shipment only ships one at a time, and they cost 250 Coin and 4 population slots each.
* The only gunpowder rifle infantry that the Chinese gets is the Skirmisher.
* With the absense of strong gunpowder support at an early age and level, the Chinese may have difficulty turtling. However, they will definitely have the option to rush or boom.
* Will not have access to any of the basic resource shipments (no 300 food/wood/coin shipments).
* China will not have access to cards that improved hunting (except Refrigeration).


End Notes:
I spent a lot of time on this. Please do not tear down the idea, but rather, find things that you think need an improvement or some kind of addition and let's discuss it.


------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------
Articles on the Yiwofeng:
Yiwofeng: A great article on the Yiwofeng.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------
Articles on the Huo Che:
Huo Che: A great article on the Huo Che.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------
Articles on the Zhuge Nu:
Zhuge Nu; Link 1: A thread with pictures from the Chinese History Forum.
Zhuge Nu; Link 2: A page with pictures that discusses the Chinese repeating crossbow.
Zhuge Nu; Link 3: A great article on the Zhuge Nu.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------
(Thanks to Joeking14 for helping with the articles and information. )

[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 12-26-2005 @ 09:14 AM).]

Replies:
posted 12-02-05 08:56 PM EDT (US)     1 / 69  
This is great. Especially for an X-pack idea, I don't see any reason why they couldn't include this, it's awsome.

Cosmopolitan? Check.
posted 12-03-05 02:20 AM EDT (US)     2 / 69  
Thanks.

I hope this thread gets more feedback.


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posted 12-03-05 04:46 AM EDT (US)     3 / 69  
The Lian Nu was the mulit-bolt crossbow, the Zhuge Nu was a repeating crossbow (it fires bow 1 by 1 but very fast.).

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posted 12-03-05 05:05 AM EDT (US)     4 / 69  
I changed the description for the Zhuge Nu.

Do you have any websites that might have pictures of the Lian Nu?


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 12-03-2005 @ 05:13 AM).]

posted 12-03-05 05:54 AM EDT (US)     5 / 69  
Only one Lien Nu

Edit: Check here for Chineese siege weapons http://authors.history-forum.com/liang_jieming/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english05102005.html


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[This message has been edited by Joeking14 (edited 12-03-2005 @ 05:55 AM).]

posted 12-03-05 08:39 AM EDT (US)     6 / 69  
sounds like a well thought out idea to me
posted 12-03-05 03:19 PM EDT (US)     7 / 69  
Thank you Joeking14!

I have made the following changes to the thread:
- Huo Teng replaced with Huo Che.
- Huo Jian Shi replaced with Yiwofeng.
- Huo Ches are Home City shipment only units.
- Added a Silk Gun unique unit known as the Chou Chong.
- Added to balance issues.
- Added articles at the end of the thread that discuss each unique unit (compliments of Joeking14).


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posted 12-03-05 11:35 PM EDT (US)     8 / 69  
this is a really great idea, congratulations.

I really think this would be a great addition to the expansion, I hope someone from ES reads this.

Now, what for the other civs?

Maybe... the Swedish? I believe that may have been a scrapped idea from the origional, they would be a good choice, I think.

I know the Italians were also considered, but I don't think they're the best idea, they were definatley not unified enough to mount any expeditions to the new world during the time in question.

So... I don't know, but I don't think they should add the Americans, that would be too bold.

So maybe, the Chinese, that would be great, and the Swedish, possibly, and then... Austro-Hungarians, perhaps? I know for the most part they were landlocked, and repressed by the ottomans, but they became big in the 1700's, and were around for Napoleon, home city ruler for the French [I would have expected Louis XIV, personally], so, Austro-Hungarians are a possibility, what do you guys think?


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posted 12-04-05 05:30 AM EDT (US)     9 / 69  
Very nice ideas.

★★★★★
posted 12-04-05 11:26 AM EDT (US)     10 / 69  
Please SUMBIT this to ES!
posted 12-04-05 03:37 PM EDT (US)     11 / 69  
Why did you get rid of the Lian Nu you could of kept it.

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posted 12-04-05 07:21 PM EDT (US)     12 / 69  
I never had the Lian Nu to begin with. I had the Zhuge Nu, which is the semi-auto crossbow. I was just refering to one that shot two to three bolts at a time. I haven't found evidence that one of those kinds of Zhuge Nu existed, and I'd much rather have a Zhuge Nu than a Lian Nu. The Zhuge Nu was more of a marvel, while the Lian Nu was more of a Chinese version of the scorpion siege engine (a catapult that shot multiple bolts).

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posted 12-05-05 02:04 AM EDT (US)     13 / 69  
Why not have both?

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posted 12-05-05 06:17 AM EDT (US)     14 / 69  
For the same reason that most civs in AOK had only one or two unique units.

You don't want to have too many of one type of unit because then you run into balance issues. Also, having that many of one type of unit wouldn't be relevant.

For example: You have the Crossbowman that shoots one arrow at a time. He's cheap to train and he excels at stopping other infantry. Then you have the Zhuge Nu that shoots multiple shots in a rapid-fire sequence. He's more expensive to train, arrows deal less damage, and he also excels at stopping other infantry. The two units are balanced because, while one deals more damage with one shot, the other has to hit with more arrows to equal the same amount of damage, or cause more. You can mass Crossbowmen more easily, which balances against a battle versus a lesser amount of Zhuge Nus. The Zhuge Nus shoot more arrows, but the Crossbowmen have more numbers.

If you add the Lian Nu, then you have to balance between three archer units instead of just two. That's when such units become irrelevant, because then you'll have a situation where one of the two unique units are favored more than the other whether it be price, hitpoints, resistances, or attack.

In this case, the Lian Nu will be favored over the Crossbowman, because the only difference between the Lian Nu and the Crossbowman would be that the Lian Nu shoots one or two more arrows at a time. To balance this issue, you would have to give the Lian Nu a penalty in order to make the Crossbowmen more appealing. If you up the cost of Lian Nu, or change their attack, hitpoints, or whatever, then more people are still going to go for the Zhuge Nus because they can achieve rapid-fire, while the Lian Nu has roughly the same rate of fire as the Crossbowman AND would cost more or have less hitpoints, attack, or whatever. It means that you'll be spending more resources to get an extra arrow or two out of one unit when you can have even more from another.

Also, you wouldn't want to take Crossbowmen out of the Chinese tech tree in order to keep the Lian Nu in either because, hell, the Chinese invented the crossbow. It would be stupid for them not to have them. You wouldn't want to replace the Zhuge Nus with Lian Nus either because Zhuge Nus were more widely used. They were still being used up until recent times. In fact, there were reports of Chinese citizens using Zhuge Nus against the Japanese during WW2!

I'm not saying that Lian Nus are a bad idea. I'm just saying that too many of the same unit type becomes irrelevant. You wouldn't have two types of Hussars per civ if they shared the same purpose.


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 12-05-2005 @ 06:26 AM).]

posted 12-05-05 11:16 AM EDT (US)     15 / 69  
Ok. Although in an Xpack I would expect every side to fet more UUs.

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posted 12-07-05 02:53 AM EDT (US)     16 / 69  
This will be much overpowered civilization, if you give a right look at it.

>To detrimine the fate of the Empire, you must conquer the New World<
Dragoster, editor of czech fansite ageofempires3.cz
posted 12-07-05 11:41 AM EDT (US)     17 / 69  
Maybe if thy were in the original game but in an Xpack all sides would probly be OP if they were in the original game.

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posted 12-07-05 03:32 PM EDT (US)     18 / 69  
I believe China would be a good idea for an expansion. It is great to see someone put so much time and effort into their suggestions aswell. I doubt as it stands the suggestions would make a balanced civ, but if es take them onboard and add their own ideas along with balance testing then this would be a great civ.
posted 12-08-05 05:02 AM EDT (US)     19 / 69  
I spent a lot of time making sure my ideas were balanced. If you see anything that seems OP or UP, point it out and we'll discuss it.

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posted 12-08-05 05:21 AM EDT (US)     20 / 69  
Not bad, not bad at all.

posted 12-08-05 11:09 AM EDT (US)     21 / 69  
Cy Marlayne it does seem OP but in the Xpack I would expect all the civs to be what in the original game were OP.

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posted 12-08-05 12:10 PM EDT (US)     22 / 69  
What's OP about it? I imagine you would say their economy, but with the lack of the 300 resource cards, hunting cards, and expence of units helps to balance this out. If you think anything else, say so, and I'll explain how I think it should be balanced.

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posted 12-08-05 07:20 PM EDT (US)     23 / 69  
Good idea. I'd like to see India in a North Africa themed expansion the most though.
posted 12-09-05 00:20 AM EDT (US)     24 / 69  
wow! totally awesome.. a couple more well planned out civs(they clearly dont seem OP) like this one and we could expect an early expansion to aoe3. gr8 work dude. but don't you think that the Zhuge Nu is too expensive to be a viable option for age2 (90g!).
also howz the idea of giving chinese a max pop of 210 or something, since they most probably wont be having too many canons and as such they are the most populated nation

In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da
Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love -
they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce?
The cuckoo clock.

[This message has been edited by fEEd_sM_pAlAdIN (edited 12-09-2005 @ 00:25 AM).]

posted 12-09-05 08:49 AM EDT (US)     25 / 69  
The price of units isn't set in stone, of course. I just did it to give you an idea of what price range they lie in--to illustrate their expense--but you're right, 90 coin is really high for a Colonial unit. I just don't want people to try to mass Zhuge Nus without thinking about Crossbowmen, so they would, of course, cost coin. Perhaps they should be about as low as Skirmishers, but since Skirmishers are supposed to counter Zhuge Nus, then the Zhuge Nus should have a lower gold cost.

Now I face the problem of mediating the Zhuge Nu's price between the Musketeer and the Skirmisher. That's a range of 50 to 75 food and 25 to 65 coin. Zhuge Nus aren't supposed to be "better" than Musketeers, they're supposed to be almost the same--less hitpoints, but a slightly greater attack if you add up all of the arrows' damage (considering that they all hit). Since not all of the Zhuge Nus arrows are likely to strike one single target, they're still not as good as Musketeers when you're talking one on one, but say 30 Zhuge Nus against 30 Musketeers would be much harder to determine.

How does 60 food and 45 coin sound? Yeah. That should definitely balance things out. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

As for the population bonus, I don't think ES wanted to give any civilization a hard-coded bonus like they've done in the past Age games (like +33% attack, -25% stable cost, etc.). In AOE3, civilizations must unlock their bonuses by playing cards or researching unit church techs. Perhaps a unique Chinese card could give them a +10 population boost, or you could have something that allows their Town Centers to support an additional 3 population, or add an additional 10 villagers to the villager cap. I like the +10 population the best though. I'll add it.


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[This message has been edited by Cy Marlayne (edited 12-09-2005 @ 08:59 AM).]

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