the best thing is probably not to include slavery. I dont think people would be offended if slaves weren't in the game.

The best thing would be not letting kids under an certain age play aoe..

I don't see why ES couldn't just start the entire game with a huge disclaimer saying "This is not what actually happened. We are only inspired by history." In that way they could make up as much nonsense as they wanted without anyone being rightfully offended.

@ Those of you who have notice that many black posters are not offended by slavery being in the game.

I can explain that for you. For a long time in America the history books would omit anything about black people. You can still get certain types to debate you on weather or not slavery caused the civil war. The ackowledgement of the significance of non-white Americans irritates and offends these people to no end. Those are the ones who would be offended about black people being shown in the game in any way.

Black people would be most offended by compleaste omission. Secon most offensive inclusion of blacks exclusion of slavery. Least offensive to us the inclusion of the act of buying slaves at the market, with the possibility that they can revolt or that you can free them. NO right thinking black person would be offneded by that.

As someone above mentioned above ALL games (at least in the states) are rated by age appropriateness. If some kinds parents let a videogame teach them history let it at least be a somewhat acurate one. As slavery will not be included in that way then at least let us see some undeniably black people in the game.

Here are some links which will teach you some black American history:
Crispus Attucks Runaway slave of African-Native ancestry. First to die in American Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crispus_Attucks

Benjamin Banneker Clockmaker, Astronomer, Lansueveyor, all around smarty pants. Part Welsh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Banneker

Read those and ask yourself could America be what it is without diversity. As GWB used to say "Our diversity is our strength".

I think since ES has already decided to only use europeans in this game they will avoid black villies/slave altogether.

I thought they said that they hadn't decided on that issue yet. I'm not sure if I can find the exact quotation...

Couldn't they make a certain number of villagers black no matter what? In the scenario, that someone tries to make make all one race villies, there would only be option for male and female villagers, and race would be randomly asserted.

And if they tried to delete all of one race, the existing villagers in the scenario will automatically reassert to keep a ratio of both races. That way, no one can create a scenario that's of only one race of villagers.

There is a loophole to this during gameplay in that someone might delete all the villagers of his/her that are a certain race and take a screenie. But ES might put a code in to prevent a screen from being taken while there's an inappropriate ratio of villies on the screen.

=======================================

To those people that don't think slavery would offend people or are not offended, imagine this:

Somebody makes a playable scenario where the goal was to eliminate the villagers of a certain race. When you killed only that one race, you win the game. Would you be offended then?

But then again, the same could be said about the native american tribes.

[This message has been edited by barley_n_oats (edited 03-29-2005 @ 10:39 AM).]

@ Jiggy

Look at this screen shot. Look at the guy on the right. http://aoe3.heavengames.com/gallery/aoe3_units/aae

My thanks to "Trevious" for provideing this link pages ago.

I believe Jiggy is thinking of the roster of "civilizations" in the game.

That picture has been linked to at least a hundred times now. I think everyone has seen it and concluded that there is indeed a black guy to the right. However, this is only concept art so he might as well be a hero of some sort.

@ barley_n_oats;

Doesn't just about every scenario involve wiping out an enemy nation? :P

btw, there's nothing stopping somone from making a custom AoM scenario with mercs as slaves (granted, they'd have to change the time it take for them to die, and it doesn't look that realistic). I doubt many people are sick-minded enough to try that in AoE3, and I'm sure that if a suitable "disclaimer" is provided by ES, then legal issues will be easily aviodable. So it is not the legal issues that is the problem, it's combining the facts and fun in a suitable blend.

There have been many WWII games out, few of which mention the Holocaust. A Jew myself, I see no problem with this, as it is simply outside the scope of the game in most cases. The offence arises when things are depicted incorrectly (and I'm not talking about little details, I'm talking about total revisionism), like saying that Jews or Communists or Gypsies or any of the persecuted groups were treated fairly in Germany at that specific time period. So I'm worried that some black people might be offended of slavery is ignored completely AND the game intimates that black people WERE being treated fairly and equally at the time, rather than being unjustly forced into slavery.

My guess at how ES will handle this is that they will include significant referance to slavery in the in-between scenario text of the campaign, and keep the facts in obvious spots. Like in AoM, when you clicked a unit and it gaves notes beneath its stats, they will include history if a black villiager is clicked on.

[This message has been edited by Lord Haart (edited 03-30-2005 @ 11:56 AM).]

This certainly does seem like a very dicy subject

Lord Harrt Said:

There have been many WWII games out, few of which mention the Holocaust. A Jew myself, I see no problem with this, as it is simply outside the scope of the game in most cases. The offence arises when things are depicted incorrectly (and I'm not talking about little details, I'm talking about total revisionism), like saying that Jews or Communists or Gypsies or any of the persecuted groups were treated fairly in Germany at that specific time period. So I'm worried that some black people might be offended of slavery is ignored completely AND the game intimates that black people WERE being treated fairly and equally at the time, rather than being unjustly forced into slavery.

My response.

Age unlike those world warII games is about more than war. Age is about the whole society that devlopes. You grow a culture and nurture it to maturity and possibly dominance. As age is historically based on that premis I am convinced that black people (which would imply slavery to any knowledgeable person) should be in the game. Black people are everywhere in America in greater or lesser local concentartions. Persons of our race have been here in some guise Since "Discovery" by colombus possibly even before some say. For an American compnay to show America without us would be a slap in the face. To show the WHOLE WWII German experience sans the Holocaust would be a disgraceful insult to you as well I am sure. Would you not argue aginst such a thing?

Considering the lagre numbers of people of African descent, who seem to be really in favor of this innovation, It does seem sensible to include it but ES knows what theyre doing....

what do u think the reaction of the media will be when their come screenshots with black villagers working, a few death and white guards around them?

^What about the reaction if blacks are omitted entirely? There's a middle ground here that should be fairly easy to obtain, have Africans in the game without having slavery be their central role.

Yeah, and like many people say, with a good description of the horrors of slavery in the unit description.

But I think the same arguments keep being repeated here, ES will likely base their choice not on moral arguments, but on fear of legal consequences. Sad but true.

@ schildpad

First it would be a huge scandal, then the media who took up the story would be ridiculed throughout the gaming community for being tricked that easily, and finally they would be ridiculed in the other media for taking up the story without checking it properly. Believe me, journalists are not always that stupid. Most of them do checks on their stories before actually making them a part of the news.

The same thing could have happened with the female villagers in AoE II, but it didn't. Actually, ES was praised for including women.

I think it's a good idea if you include them in militia units and so on. Not in dragoons and other units that obviously comes from Great Britain or Germany. Not from America itself.

Lucasain said:

Quote:

Yeh, I agree with that, especially about the need to underscore the importance of black people in the development of America. What I was saying was more that I feared that black people would be a offended if they were included in the game as equal citizens, which would seem to say that they recieved no racist treatment. This seems worse to me because instead of leaving out facts, ES is almost denying them.

Of course, a textual reference to slavery would solve this, so I yield

[This message has been edited by Lord Haart (edited 04-02-2005 @ 11:13 AM).]

People cant you think? Whats the use of slaves when you have villagers anyway? Arent they already slaves?

That's not the point. I argue for the inclusion of black people for the same reason Germans, French, or Russiansargue for the inclusion of thier people. Pride yes, but also an appeal to historical accuracy as this game will influence countless impressionalble young people around the world in a way that books and classes in school never could. I do not want to encounter someone years from now who says they cannot understand why black people are the way we are. Or wondering out loud just what we have done for america.

I am not concerned about those who play the game and seek education in American history. I am worried about the worldwide masses of people who have no reason to care for american history who may get thier only meanigful impression from this game.

Think about it.

you really want that?to repeat every horror inflicted on african people personally,and hear (simulated) sounds etc from beatings? im sure there are atrocities im not aware of and have no wish to learn about.should every one of these(taking advanatge of the havoks physics too) be incorperated?

how about 'cargo' ships?you want them simulated realisticly also?

whats wrong with altering history a bit?something bad happaned.everyone learned or at least moved on.

i think you would be appaled to know how many histories of people that had been dealt with wrongly do not exist,since you seem to think it very bad to show colonies without all aspects

ES wouldnt do this on moral reasons,and with MS owning them(a moral mistake on part of owners dealing with MS) would avoid it for legal reasons too

slavery shall not be included because it is brutal

what is in ur peoples minds...do u want to see black men and women in pain....what are u trying to promote rascim...huh....u want to tell every one what pain the black peoples endured ....huh.....

^ goddamn, now there's a thoughtful post. We should all shut up and listen to this guy!

sarcasm is wasted here.

This entire game, as said by the designers themselves, is mass genocide.

Having black units would be the reasonable thing, but what people might do with that is another issue.

Did I ever say anything about sounds or simmilated whippings? All I ever imagined was buying 50 or 60 slaves at the market for some coin in order to get a large workforce qucikly. They would just come walking out ready to work all 50 or 60 of them in about 10 seconds. These slaves would of course be black as the lionshare of slaver labor in post "discovery" America was done by imported Africans. Hey mabey they could call them "imported Africans" instead of slaves ;-)

But a blue man has already said there will be no slavery in the game.

What I assert is that the inclusion of black people in the game implies black chattle slavery will be addressed. That does not mean something gory just simple ackowledgement.

I assert that the sick ones are those who think slavery was some sort sort of S&M fantasy. Mostly masters did not beat their slaves unless they ran away for if you beat someone too much they cannot work in the fields. They would sevely deal with runaways. Furthermore slaves on the plantation realized that if they simply refused to work en mass then who would grow the crops that everyone ate or sold for coin to buy food. In those early days everyone in america depended on each other weather we liked it or not.

this slavery issue is becoming one of the most discussed topis on these forums...
well to give my two cents:

lucasian seems to have a convincing argument from the point of view of some black ppl. but i think the majority has spoken ... and the verdict is that ppl do not want to play a game which displays history so accurately that they are forced to think about the horrors of yesteryears, let alone witness them taking place in their precious creations. I am sure every AOK player out here feels proud of his/her ciy. Imagine a knight or a hero from the game rape a villager while u admire ur handwork... cause then it'll be historically correct for the middle ages!!!
On the other hand.. the hand that black ppl had in the development of america cannot be ignored. Best solution..( from a purely gaming point of view).. make random balck/white units.... and let all be happy. Black ppl helped build america same as white ppl... and they are credited for it.... and it is historically accurate in so far as there is a presence of coloured ppl in the game. Only the gruesome detail of flogging and whipping is .... edited.