Quote:

i hope you do know excactly 2 civs can make heavy cavalry (lancers + cuirs)_? All other civs need shipments to get them. Late game the only usefull counter to lbows are heavy cannons, but with rockets range they arent great either. And now they nerf them.

Ender,

"Ahem. How bad do Mamelukes "shit" on 8 Black Watch Highlanders and 5+ Dragoons? Or how about just 20 Pikes?

And have you even played the game in the last month even? Massed Longbows annihilate Paper (Organ) Guns unless they too are massed."

Ender i know you are a much better player than me and we have had multiple disagreements, but you are not ALWAYS right. You are a very colorful poster, with your big lead ups to your great punch lines and game knowledge producd by your infinite wisdom. Its great when you put the *sigh* after putting a non 2k plus rated player in his place.

Maybe i havent played a truly uber British player, but Oguns devaste low health infnatry units such as the longbowmen. Try it in the editor , even if they focus fire, the Brit player still gonna end up losing more recource wise. I know this has been discussed numerous times, but Oguns seem to distribute therye damage more effectively than falconets when it comes to low health units. Its a fact.

And as far as Black Watch taking on mamelukes.. 9 times out of 10 Mamelukes wont see Black Watch cuz Brit is still in 2nd age. Every1 can agre Portugal player always gonna age to fortress faster and have ge 3 units faster.

And finally lomgbows en masse in colonial isnt very threatening considering they have putrid siege damage. even if you had 40 longbowmen they will still take considerable losses due to Colonial Militia TC fire. And for some reason the TC does come down the port player will likesly have 1 or 2 more TC's witch will effectively negate the longbowmen rush.

[This message has been edited by ub3r (edited 07-28-2006 @ 00:26 AM).]

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Lol thought I'd get a mention in here somewhere. I was surprised too, though I hardly recall that game. But i remember that I was surprised at how fast 2 organ guns screwed my longbows. Though I think I lost all longbows and he lost both organ guns.

I dont know; I just dont think that was my day I kept messing up for some reason lol.

Quote:

BTW, I resent that. Maybe you should have more respect for other people. I tend to see alot of shit like this spreadin' about.

EDIT: Whoopzes, double post.

[This message has been edited by Senor Bobbers (edited 07-28-2006 @ 01:03 AM).]

Quoted from Senor Bobbers:

I don't really care ...

Quoted from ub3r:

Use. Stagger. Formation.

Quoted from uber:

20 Pikes > 5 Mamelukes. Don't have to be in Fortress.

Quoted from ub3r:

No, not a "fact". More like your imagination. Organ Guns are worse than Falconets in every way except price. Give up the four month old argument that has already been debunked several times.

Quoted from ub3r:

Killing your villagers is threatening.
Keeping your villagers garrisoned in TC/Outposts and not gathering anything is threatening.
Destroying houses so you can't ship anything (which Longbows have enough seige to accomplish) is threatening.

Besides. The real seige comes from a mere 10-20 Pikes. Longbows just kill everything else (except for Abus Guns).

Quote:

Obviously. 'Cause many here know that you are quite self-indulged and harness no mental stability. Of course I could say that to anyone though, I'm just saying it to you now.

Tho I agree with ender on how british dosnt have to be in fortress (look at my previous post here)... Mamelukes ARE deadly to any brit player even in fortress, Brit dont get dragoon shipment >_<, and if you go heavy on pikes they will pull back mamelukes and own with cassa, if you go heavy on Lbows mamelukes will own, and if you try to bring some sort of balance between Lbows and Pikes I strongly doubt you can pull enough numbers to stop both pikes and Lbows from dying.

Note: This ofcourse is in early fortress before British can age to fortress or send blackwatch.

[This message has been edited by Gomezd (edited 07-28-2006 @ 06:29 AM).]

Senor dont let Ender get you mad. He is one of them people who walks with his nose in the air, head held high, becuz he has a good AOE3 cutech rating. Ender makes more posts than anyone, and plays the your not experienced enough card, that he used to make fun of ultimitsu for.

Besides Ender, how can you talk about 4 month old arguments, (remember my Lancer thread?). You bashed Lancers so bad, and now they are great. As far as falcs and Oguns, like i said before you must have been a falconet in your previous life, you are so very fond of them.

ANYONE can agree that 2 Oguns will kill 10 longbowmen faster than 2 falconets. I garauntee that. Oguns do less overkill to low hp units, which means they drop faster. Im sure Flaconets are better in every aspect, personally i would rather have a flaconet, BUT Portugal dosnt get them, and thats what the **** were talking about here.

Lastly i doubt 20 pikemen would kill 5 mamelukes honestly, if they did they would have to be vet, and if not they would only survive with like 1 or 2 pikes left, and besides if your in any way a decent player, you wouldnt just let Mames fight Pikes, you would run and bring cassas to handle pikes VERY easily and quickly.

You can talk all you want about ur lbows, and age 2 British fabricated success in 2nd age vs Portugal, Portugal BLOWS Brit away once they FF, everytime, this discussion is touching the topic of how it will be after 1.08 Pre 1.08 Brit will not compete with Portugese player of equal skill.

*sigh* (wink at Ender)

Oh, sorry. I don't see the difference between ES' definition of HC and LC. I mean sure a Hussar has less HP and attack than a cuir, but in terms of what you would use them for I think there is no difference. It's like the difference between a strelet and skirm.

My definition of LC = ranged cav that counters other cav, HC = melee cav that counters artillery or LI.

Hope you understand now.

And pertaining to Ender ... he does have a significant amount of experience and skill over you guys, so I think it's wise to take his advice and input with some appreciation. I mean, sure because he's good doesn't mean he's always right, but seriously. I am the same way, I don't think that significantly worse players should be giving out advice (but giving your opinion is fine, this is a forum), mainly because most people post here for debates or because they are requesting help for certain situations. By misguiding them your really not helping them. It's even far worse when you can't back up your own opinion or argument though, let alone posting true material. Like below ...

20 pikes (normal, not upgraded at ALL) will ruin 5 mams, with ~ 3-5 pikes remaining. Even with ~1500HP, mams fall quickly to 20 pikes because normal pikes deal 40 damage per each "swing. 40*20 = 800. So roughly two "swings" from each pike will kill them. Of course I'd micro them so there was less walking time and less bumping so I'd do something like 10 on each. And I would certainly hope that you would at least bump your pikes up to vet status by age3, and by the time his mams are arriving.

And anyway, you'd be STUPID, to let your mercs fight their counters. They might win in some situations, but it's certainly not cost effective or worth your 1000 gold.

[This message has been edited by Brtnboarder495 (edited 07-28-2006 @ 12:47 PM).]

Quoted from ub3r:

I bashed your idiotic idea that Lancers were "teh best calvary evar!". Not the unit itself. And I was far from alone in that.

Quoted from ub3r:

Ah good old ub3r. Can't come within a mile of an actual argument. Can't blame you, as this supposed superiority of Organ Guns in infantry killing has been debunked over and over and over again ...

Quoted from ub3r:

Anyone who can't micro their way out of a paper bag ...

Perhaps you'd also like to argue that Organ Guns are less easily killed by Longbowmen?

Quoted from ub3r:

20 normal Pikemen, with zero micro on their part, with Mamelukes landing the first hits, with about 3 seconds wasted by half the Pikemen getting in range, stil kill 5 Mamelukes with 5-7 Pikes remaining (varies). But don't take my word for it. Do an editor test.

Quoted from ub3r:

Heh, mission accomplished then. 1000 gold and a shipment running around looking pretty, unable to actually do it's job.
Cassadors come? Say hello to the 2 Falconet shipment. Honestly man, I've faced this crap sooooo often with Spain. 20-28 Pikes + 2 Falconets > 5 Mamelukes + 6-14 Cassadors. The Brit would be in an even better position because he has Longbows (15-23) instead of 5-9 Lancers.

People tend to freak out at Mamelukes needlessly. Their greatest weakness is that they absolutely, positively cannot kill their own counters, unlike other Merc cavalry. Their other weakness is that they take forever to kill their intended targets. Do you have any idea how many Cassadors will die to the Falconets and how much damage Mamelukes will take from Pikes before they path around and/or through the Pikes to the Falconets? "Too many" and "too much".

Quoted from ub3r:

Play the game. Portugal needs to mass, MASS Organ Guns to "blow a Brit Longbow spammer away". There is absolutely no chance of a Portuguese player knocking out a Brit with a brain in early Fortress.

[This message has been edited by Ender_Ward (edited 07-28-2006 @ 03:39 PM).]

Quote:

You mean lbows blow(s) Ports away?

Mist - "You mean lbows blow(s) Ports away?"

Wow Mist, i think thats the first time you made a post that wasnt a half page long and got right to the point for once.

Nice

Although that statement makes LITTLE sense. Longbows do not blow Portugal away, not in colonial anyway.

Ender - "I bashed your idiotic idea that Lancers were "teh best calvary evar!". Not the unit itself. And I was far from alone in that."

Ender, every idea except yours is idiotic, whats new? "teh best calvary evar" is acctually your own fabricated version of what i actually said. I never said that. I made a good argument concerning the Lancer compared to other calvary when the cabbalero card is played, thats all.

Ender - "Ah good old ub3r. Can't come within a mile of an actual argument. Can't blame you, as this supposed superiority of Organ Guns in infantry killing has been debunked over and over and over again ..."

I cant come a mile within any argument when your on the other end of it, your just always right. Also i never said the Organ Gun kills infantry better than falconet, i said THEY ARE MORE EFFICIENT AT KILLING LOW HP INFANTRY FASTER than falconet. I wish some1 from ES would read this and give thier point of view concerning the Ogun splash damage and damage distribution compared to a falconet.

Also 20 reg pikemen are 1600 recources, so if your gonna compare shit liek that, then the other 600 recources cxan be used to make 5 or 6 cassadors to waste your pikemen. Mamelukes are exceptional units early in fortress, and most brit players are still gonna be in colinial.

Boarder - "And pertaining to Ender ... he does have a significant amount of experience and skill over you guys, so I think it's wise to take his advice and input with some appreciation."

LOL, if thats the case then someone else should give advice on this board becuz Ender is by no means even in the top 75.
I could care less about some1's cutech rating or skill level, an opinion is an opinion.

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Mameluks cost a shipment worth 1000 Resources... so 20 Pikeman have 400 resources advantage over Mameluks.

Anyway, what is the point of this bashing thread? If Portugal > Britain or Britain > Portugal? All I can say is that on Colonial Wars I wish I had Manors, but on FF Wars Portugal take the lead. Mameluks are great mercenaries and probably the best to fight off Longbowmans, but the worst Melee Cavalry one to fight off melee infantry.

British are weaker to rushes, but they would be the best choice at Colonial wars. Though Portugal will still have a good chance since it will be one of the few civs that can still FF >almost< as well as before.

Quote:

very well put.

Whoever said longbows will train faster. They won't, musketeers cost 100 resources. The musketeer train time is the base, and longbowmen also got 100 resources.

^ I'm THINKING it will be based on VS rather than raw resources, at least it should. But maybe I'm wrong.

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Beat me too it! So yea Mams cost 2000 resources and 60 seconds to arrive, not to mention pikes now take significantly less time to train, and can be replaced where as Mams can't unless you go to fortress and have one of those multiple merc armies, or Imperial and have the ability to resend them.

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@ Loh_Numa1: that one made me rofl.

What do you think people answered when I used my Germans in 1.06/7 and said I used them since the beginning as an excuse?
LOL they still called me a lamer and said things like I can do nothing but lame.
If Brits will be OP in 1.08 you will be called a lamer for using them even if you used them since the beginning.
If brits will be OP in 1.08 people will say they have always been OP and so on....

Dudes, its always the same...

I just remember all this ''nerf french'' and nerf cuirassiers!!!'' topics lol.

People will always find something to complain, dont worry.

Well Put ^

Still even just 4 cassadors and 5 mamelukes would kill 20 pikemen fairly easily. Like i said before with layers of equal skill, the Portugese player will almost always age up to fortress faster, and send age 3 units faster. IMO right now Portugal is better than Britian, the point of this thread is... will British be better than ports in 1.08?

It's not so much about whether 5 mamelukes kill 20 pikes, it's about how much damage 30ish longbows will do to the mamelukes in the time it takes for them to kill the pikes (if kill them at all that is). It's insane how much damage they do, mamelukes are the best cav to use against longbows, and even they get slaughtered with a handful of pikes as a meatshield.

And then after mamelukes are gone what do you use? Organ guns get killed in small numbers by longbows themselves, and if the brit has included so much as one culv behind his longbows, your organs will die so quickly.

u use cassadores?

IMO its too hard to say which will be better in 1.08.

Britain has by far the best Colonial. They can get a lot more Settlers than Portugal through shipments/manors and due to Longbowman their military is also much superior. They start with more resources and can also even start with more Settlers if they get 300 wood in crates.

But Portugal stil has two big advantages. First it is incredible hard to rush, and will still be even with the weaker TCs. And, the last one, it willl still be able to FF. They don't have to fear a rush as much as anyother civilization and can use the Exiled Prince. But I think Britain could take the lead doing a slower fortress with a great economy and then just spamming Longbowman at you.

You also have to see that with Longbowman around Portugal Dragoon shipments are close useless. They will do 35.7 damage every 3 seconds, 14 Longbowman will 1 shot kill a Veteran Dragoon. That left Portugal with no melee Cavalry shipments besides Mameluks and Hackapells... And damage is not the strong point of Mameluks so don't expect them to kill 20 Longbowman with 10 Pike support... Hell! Even 6 Hackapells beat 5 Mameluls. I would say that Mameluks are close to a waste when there is no cannons to kill.

So IMO Portugal will still perform better vs most civs, but Britain will defeat Portugal when fighting each other. Anyway, I'm more worried about Spain right now

I don't get why everyone is saying spain will be OP.. I mean sure they get shipments a bit faster, but it won't be anything significant, maybe 10% or something. Certainly nothing compared to the huge nerf to FF and the boost to rushing.

Quoted from ub3r:

Yeah, you did. Search feature rocks.
Here's a quote from that thread: "In conclusion, the Lancer can definetly be considered the best cavalry unit in the game".

Quoted from ub3r:

Except for the small problem that they're not.
Organ Guns are not only not better at killing low HP infantry, they're worse. Their area of effect is smaller, they "touch" less units with their volley. What's worse, if it's initial target dies, the Organ Gun stops until the next reload, potentially wasting it's remaining "shots".
A Falconet does all it's damage in a single splash in a wider area. Whether it's initial target unit is killed or not, does not prevent it from doing it's full splash damage.

Quoted from ub3r:

As others have mentioned, Mamelukes, being a Fortress shipment are worth 2000 resources. Pikes have a 400 resource advantage.
Cassadors die fairly easily to Longbows and Hussars (if the Brit uses Glorious' long Colonial boom strat) or by the good old 2 Falconet shipment if the Brit is also in Fortress.

And I find it interesting that you chose to ignore this (obviously inconvenient to your argument) part:

Quoted from Ender Ward:

Quoted from ub3r:

And you know what they say about opinions ...

Ender, please go outside.

Quoted from Jumbalaya/Ramaan:

I just spent the last 11 hours working outside (thankfully the night wasn't as hot as the previous days). I'm relaxing now, thanks very much. And making poor ub3r tear his hair out in frustration is part of it.

Annoying you, Ramaan, is another enjoyable part, and has been for a while.