Note: you won't get good replies on this forum for treaty questions; go to www.agecommunity.comand post in the treaty forums instead.

I'd answer myself, but I don't have TAD, so unfortunately I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not an expert but as I understand it from reading the forums, the Japanese{and pretty much every expansion civ native or asian} struggle in treaty games. There is no way the Japanese economy can compete with French and Port long term as far as I know.

Ashigaru are their best unit, but Ports are a brutal match up for them in treaty because the Organ guns will maim Japans strength and their economy will always have an edge. If he has Goons, countering artillery will be difficult too.

you should spam muskets and back them up with flaming arrows. flaming arrows are good ,not great, but good against artillery.

or get some culverins from port allies in the consulate.

Here's what I'd do:

First, boom as much as possible before the treaty runs up. Booming for Japan means sending the 4 and 7 villager cards twice, making shrines above and beyond whats needed for population, and (of course) aging to fortress for 2 more TC's. I don't bother much with cards that boost gathering, since Japan is restricted to only 75 villagers anyway. Have many military upgrade cards, that is one of Japan's strengths (particularly late-game when the upgrades have been sent).

My unit composition against what you described would be as such; Ashigaru's massed around a good number of flaming arrow, plus a group of upgraded (with their 2 cards) Naginata. The flaming arrows counter everything he has pretty well (artillery, muskets, cassadores), the Ashigaru's keep the enemy away from your flaming arrows (make sure to keep them in stagger mode, and try to keep out of range of their artillery/cassadores) and the Naginata are for cleanup. Have less Naginata if he has many muskets, and more if he has many cassadores. Just make sure to keep your own artillery protected and plentiful. I find Organ Guns to be less dangerous than falconets, since even focus-fired ashigaru's can take them out without needing too many of them.

As for unit production speed, theres two things that Japan can do to help with that. First, go isolationism at your consulate for the 10-batch unit training, then ally with Dutch for the church (with the european training speed upgrades).

For long treaty games, make use of the Dojo shipments. Free military while you continue booming is a good thing.

Booming for Japan means sending the 4 and 7 villager cards twice

Never send villager cards in treaty; it's a waste of a card; send gather rate improvement cards instead.

Aowpr the Great
I agree with you. Shipping villager cards in treaty is a WASTE of a card.

in treaty what you NEED with the japanese, is not really the quick gathering ressrouce cards, but the shrine exp card can help at the begining, to get all the extra cards you need. Here's the breakdown:I will use portuguese because i dont know the japanese.

- 1. ALWAYS, ALWAYS get the fastbuild cards for units u use(cav, inf, and maybe art) if you get the card AND upgrade it at the church, with the ports, cavalry builds in 2 seconds. TWO SECONDS!! and with some natives or treasures, they actually CUT DOWN THAT TIME and go INSTANTLY(commance cavalry example)(watch that eco )

- ALWAYS get ALL upgrades cards for the units you use.
Example:I ALWAYS use cassadors, Jinettes, life guards(hand cav) and artillery(mortars). I get ALL the upgrades for cassadors (team hp, combat, and attack) I also get the artillery range card, the artillery hp, and artillery FAST build card. same thing with jinetes (hp, combat and attack)

- ALWYAS SHIP IN the FACTORIES. sometimes maps run out of wood or your base runs out of wood, OR you dont have vills to quickly run and get wood. with japs, ressources are plentiful because of their gathering upgrades so its ok. but with ports, ALL vills are on mills and plants and i never can spare a few on wood, so factories go to wood to rebuild foward bases and do the upgrades.

- ALWAYS get the advanced arsenal. I think in japan u get them as an age up option, which saves you a card.

- ALWAYS use the native infinite card you can get with your civ. think about this. you get 200 pop with ports (-99 vills) THEN you get 30 tupi allies, upgrade to legendary from the capitol) and you get an EXTRA 30 units. FREE POP!!! and imagine you also have a native embassy. DAMN thats 45 free units!!!!! all at legendary/exalted status!!!
note: MAKE SURE YOU SHIP THEM FIRST, "THEN" do the upgrade to legednary in the capitol otherwise they will downgrade because the card upgrades them to elite while they ship.

- NEVER "BOTH" use the spies. get onlhy one guy to get spies, then he warns his ally if someone tries something fishy. OR, send scouts to stand at dark spaces in maps. Saving that 10k gold means you get a huge econ starting up, AND u can use those extra natives about 5 times!!!

- Use the DAIMYOS. They are FAST MOVING barraks/castles/stables. Immagine someone breaks your walls right, then sends THREE(i think it's possible to get 3 different daimyos) into your villager population with samurais being built and BAM instalnty there's 15 samurais there, behind your enemy units, THEN right after 15 ashigaru , THEN 10 morutarus)

Now, go in ESO and look at ALL the jap cards that boost your units and give them extra range, extra bonus against cavalry or infantry or artillery etc...

ATTACK STRATEGIES
Example: you are jap he is port

1. THE FIRST RULE OF WARFARE: KNOW THY ENEMY.
- What can he build? Cassador/Jinetes/Organ guns/Tupi allies
- What IS he building?
- How fast can he build
Cassadors are good on ranges vs infatry, the suck vs cavalry and other hand units. jinetes PWN ALL CAVALRY. and i mean ALL. but the fall EASILY to samurai and musketeers (with baillonette upgrade) etc.. keep track of these weaknesses/strenghts and exploit them. if your enemy is MASSING cassadors and maybe 5 jinetes, DONT WORRY ABOUT MAKING CAVALRY PWN HIM becaus even though jinetes pwn cavarly they can do nothing when outnumbered by it. (example of Gendarmes vs jinetes. although gendarmes pwn jinetes 1v1, you can get MORE jinetes per gendarme and they are ranged, so....stagger them and watch those gendarmes fall because they have to get CLOSE to attack.

2. KNOW THYSELF.
- What do i have that can COUNTER his units? arrows vs Cassadors, Ashigaru, samurai & yabusame? vs Jinetes, Arros vs organ guns/ your natives vs his natives?
- How fast Can you build

3. Know the terrain
- are there natives near you. if so in treaty, ALWAYS ALWYAYS USE the natives. they give you extra upgrades an opponent might not have. example: the cherokee make it so that mill and plantation upgrades NO LONGER COST WOOD. think about that for a second... that means all your unit upgrades will be done quicker, you can build more barracks/stables/castes and natives!
- is a boxed in map (with lotsa obstacles meaning you will be in close quarters most of the time) or is it a wide map like mongolia? If it is close uquarters, well, artillery will rule since they are armored vs ranged, and SAMURAI with their splash damage must ALWAYS be up front so that cassadors and jinetes cannot fire on your infantry and cavalry.

4. Make use of your allies.
- ALWAYS make 2 barraks and 2 stables in your base and ask your ally to do the same for you. IN CASE you need quick reinforcements and vice versa. ALSo, you "can " do the same for the foward bases in case your ally can make imperial howitzerz to take down wals for you or you make flaming arrowr to take down an infantry pest for him.

5. KEEP AN EYE ON THE MAP.
- sneak up on your ally with a foward base
- you can make walls around your foward base too if you like but it takes a LOT of micro management between moving uinits and placing the gates right so your army is not hindered ASWELL
- MAKE SURE your ally cannot sneak up on you with a foward base. send cavalry to intercept ALL incoming villagers.

REMEMBER. Get the FAST BUILD unit cards BEFORE you get the attack/hp upgrade cards. but the advanced arsenal comes before both these since it takes A LOT MORE TIME to upgrade everything in the arsenal.

[This message has been edited by Nevaziah255 (edited 01-23-2008 @ 04:45 PM).]

Japanese have TERRIBLE anti-artillery and a poor lategame economy; if I played treaty, I wouldn't use them.

He, Nevaziah, Sun tzu would be proud...

Anyways Japan is good on water maps because their galleons have a higher build limit, and their econ doesnt suffer from lack of villies cuz they got fishing boats (mix that in with armed fishermen and ohboy you'll be annoying him). Samurai is good with some flaming arrows, as long as you got a reserve of hatamoto or some other anti-cav units nearby. Sending some Nag riders behind his army to attack his long range units (artillery and skrm units) is also good, assuming you bring along a few extra sams.
Japan's artillery is nothing exceptional except flaming arrows are like culv and falconet in one giant (not that good) package. Mortars are better because they only take 3 pop space.
You might consider that lategame ports has the BEST and most balanced econ/military combo, so it may be that your friend is really good at a really good (lategame) civ.

Just wanted to say that "Jap" is considered offensive.

to SahintheFalcon.
"Considered" by whom? I have NEVER met a japanese person OR heard a japanese person say they were offended by the term "jap". It's like calling a scottsman a "Scott", or a Soudi-arabian a soudi, we do that already, why is THAT not considered offensive. Perspective my friend, perspective...

By the way, I dont condone calling Germans, "Germs" , that's just not cool...

Anyaways, I am looking to Level up my Japs to 50-60 so i can try them out in treaty, they are only level 10 in my home cieties. Any ideas(since they cant make plantations, i cant do a plantation farm, but i can do a plantation "destruction" farm, whereby someoen MAKES plantations and i just destroy em....
Then I will test out possible strategies for them...

"Jap" was a deragotory term used by the Allies in WWII and still is considered deragotory. Most Japanese people that I know think that it is equivalent to n*****. Don't use it. Discretion, diplomacy and tact are well needed skills in life and might as well start learning them now.

[This message has been edited by Catabre (edited 01-24-2008 @ 10:54 AM).]

I've only skimmed through the thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the Japanese are VERY bad late game, why? Because they get 75 settlers. It's all fine if you manage to get all 20 shrines with animals tasked on them, however in treaty this is close to impossible, and even with say 20 shrines, the shrine improvement card, the shrine upgrade button, the shrine wonder, AND having them all tasked on animals, I doubt they're worth more than a settler each, 95 settlers total. Lets compare it to some other civs, the Germans get 139 settlers(99 settlers + 20 settler wagons), the French get 80 Couriers, but they are suppose to be 1.25 standard settlers so that's a full 120 settlers(80 pop!!!), I THINK the Chinese get 120 settlers but I can't confirm, either way, every civ gets more settlers than the Japanese. Shrines are really a joke, and the ONLY way you can make them work is if you have a teammate willing to use 8k food training sheep or something to task them on your shrines, and even then you loose close to 800 food sending him the 8k food back.

Niall, are you kidding me?

With the Japanese I get WAAY more ressources with those 75 villagers than with the 99 of the ports. they get a lot more "gather speed" upgrades thatn the rest, and heck, the shipments of the rice paddies ALSO increase the gathering speed!

ON A SIDE NOTE for gathering speed, there is one card for infantry, you have TWO options:
CONSULATE: there are two cards, one that makes relations cheaper by 75%!! (Intervention) and (GOOD FAITH AGREEMENT) which trains consulate units faster and makes em cheaper too.

Also, there is a DAIMYO card that makes them train 100% faster(Bakufu). think about that for a second.
- you can make up to 3 (maybe more) Daimyos.
- the shogunate can make more daimyos if you loose them
- the card also makes daimyos (which are cavalry 10% faster)
- the daimyos are MOBILE and they are CAVALRY
- The dutch consulate can send you a church to do the cavalry and infantry upgrade again.

that means 100% build fast from the daimyos, 40% build fast from the church, and 10% build fast from one of the age up wonders (i forget which) = 160% fast build for infantry and 150% fast build for cavalry. Now, the ports only get 80% fast build (church and card)

do you know how badly you can abuse your ally with mobile barracks that can train ARTILLERY(or samurais) and recieve shipments RIGHT on the shogun?

Shogun Tokugawa, Daimyos Aizu and Satsuma I have confirmed so far...

Yeah I think some japanese people are offended if you call them a jap however this is a game forum and we need abbreviations for our civs - when someone says japs on this forum, they are referring to the aoe civilization.

I know. But I'm implying that if someone gets offended don't be surprised.

"Jap" was a deragotory term used by the Allies in WWII and still is considered deragotory. Most Japanese people that I know think that it is equivalent to n*****. Don't use it. Discretion, diplomacy and tact are well needed skills in life and might as well start learning them now.

Actually, the term the Allies used during WWII would be "Nips" short for Nipponese. Japan was known as Dai Nippon Teikoku or "Great Nipponese Empire", during WWII.

alright, well since the term can be "ambiguous" and still has the potential, however small, to be used maliciousiy, why dont we just use JPN as the small abbreviation? agreed?

Well, Japs is pretty much equivalent to Chinks, and I don't see anyone saying Chinks. No one refers to the Germans as krauts either, but I have heard Frenchies but no Spics. There aren't really American derogatory terms for the others. I don't know, seems almost like we're using selecetive racism in civ pronouns. If you condone using Japs, then Chinks and Spics are pretty much the same thing.

@Nevaziah: Good overall tips for treaty games. Don't forget the consulate options are reversed for treaty vs. non-treaty - Dutch first, isolationism later - because you want the bank crankin' and the arsenal researches done early, and the bushido principles and ninja stealth later.

@anti-artillery: Treaty artillery is usually well-protected (mortars behind meatshield or walls) so even In-Yo yabusame will have trouble getting to them. I recommend a brief consulate allegiance with a civ that will give you horse guns or culvs - I think Ports will give you a shipment of culvs - or having a human ally with good anti-artillery.

@shrine loading: Almost any human ally will be able to fill up your shrines. OFten you can make a deal with him and give him the resource he needs most (maybe not food but wood or coin) in return for some number of sheep. Do not neglect other sources of shrine critters: Cheyenne bison tech, Sufi fat goat tech, team bison, dogies and scattered herdables on maps like Texas and Himalayas. Even if you don't finish loading shrines before treaty end, you may end up with enough extra food to keep your ally padded so he can send a few sheep your way from time to time. I agree though, it's a real pain to have to build all your shrines inside your treaty radius (and walls) and then escort or micro herdables to the shrines. It's not an optimal setup for treaty. But with a little cooperation and a bit of lost resources, you can get a decent eco. 800 food lost in market fees is a small price to pay for nearly doubling or tripling your shrine resource output.

On water maps, obv fishbooming is far far better.

Ja, Nips is worse. I'll just let it rest.

usually what i do in these arguments about what is worse than what in "name calling" jsut avoid it all together, dotn try to get someone unoffended, just dont do it, heck, censorship will follow political correctness right?

For now, PLEASE, just humor me and use the term JPN whenever you are trying to type Japan or JAPANESE civiliation and dont feel like typing in the whole thing or are strapped for space.

at least until someone gets offended by that too

Yeah, why not just use jpn, the other term is derrogatory