I agree, sounds are a must.

I used VA a lot with AoK (unfortunatly for you in italian, so I can't give any sample), and I have to say, in my opinion, it adds more than sound effect, because it gives the characters an entirely new life, incredible in deepness. You can really bring a simple and plain reading, that gives just a little to the player, to a major feeling of reality of the character.

Have you ever thought in how many ways you can say a statement, a question, a comment, whatever?

Have you ever thought how many different voices can you have?

I stongly agree, luke

I share your thoughts...

Music sets the mood for emotions and thoughts. I really started to realize how powerful music was when I started to play Final Fantasy; you could really feel what the character felt. Some type of music was always playing. The first time I saw that used to its full extent in AoK was with ATW, the way it was supposed to be used. No joke. Not just some random theme that sounds okay looping in the background. What would an intense life or death battle be without SFX or a theme to get you pumped up? Or a mysterious meeting with wicked intent? With an above average story that has meaning and true feeling music is a must have.

Outside of the editor I spend a lot of my time editing and searching for music. For my current project, no more that 5% done, I have almost 4mb of music and SFX. I’m hoping to use music myself to add that extra edge to my project and bring the story, characters, and settings to life.

You’re definitely right that music is a must have.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Warrior_1_ (edited 05-31-2003 @ 08:35 PM).]

Agrees, I refuse to release my campaign unless my songs are converted into the MP3 files or WAV files. The campaign just feels so empty.

[This message has been edited by l2aGeFul2i0uS (edited 05-31-2003 @ 08:40 PM).]

No argument here. In fact, the adding of sound and music is an art in itself, that many don't realise or appreciate.

VA Just look at the ES campaigns, and the boost they give to the game. I agree with it being relatively unexplored, and there are probably a lot of designers that have good voices.

Quote:

One reason why I don't do Voice acting in my scenarios :'(

Voice acting is a good way to immerse players into the storyline and identify with the characters, but it comes with a couple of drawbacks that have lead to the limitation of its use:

Without competent voice actors, the entire work could come off as unprofessional and hokey.

All of those sound files lead to some large downloads (as in RotDF).

Music and sound FX have almost become criteria for creativity and storytelling. Like |2aGe said, without them everything feels empty - because it really is. I've been studying and experimenting with FX/music use in campaigns for my own project. On that note:

Does anyone know of any good sound editing programs that allow you to cut/adjust the length of sound files?

I have experimented with a small amount of VA(none for AOK yet) and have believe the following.

Not only do I rock at accents, but, that sound adds a lot to the any game. If you compare a movie from the silent film era to one now, you really notice the difference it makes.

Just having text with no sound ,will, only have a single dimension to your campaign. For more dimensions you will need sound.

This is something I have been trying to improve on lately and is not as easy as one might think. Random sound is very troublesome and confusing.

Personally, I went as far as to compose my some of my own works of music, to set the right mood (after some certain people who shall remain nameless, refused to allow me use certain music content)

All this to simply say that yes music is important and should be included where ever possible. But a work should not be criticized for not using music.

Just in case anyones interested. I believe the key to doing accents and good VA, is, too not actuely say the word you are trying for, but, to pronounce it differently in the first place by actuely saying the letter and not sluring your speach.

Some examples.

Frenchman 1: Zounds, Frenchman Two! Remember zee twenty years ago, when our land, she had zee monarch?

Frenchman 2: Oui, Frenchman 1. Zen, we cut off his head.

Frenchman 1: Let us remember thees by making zee commemorative plates.

Frenchman 2: Zen, we shall never bathe again.

Frenchman 3: When did we get thees ridiculous accents?

or.

Peasant 1: Remember twenty years ago, when only half the town died of the plague?

Peasant 3: Those were the days. Now help me throw Peasant 2's rat-gnawed corpse onto the cart.

Thats the basic intent(I finally got that out of my system).

[This message has been edited by Philip Dunscombe (edited 05-31-2003 @ 10:34 PM).]

Unfortunatly VA brings some problems too.

Because it's not enough to have a microphone and a sound card. You also need enough people that know well-spoken english (and that may be a major problem for who doesn't speak it as a first language).

And the sounds you get aren't as good as they could be. If you record a piece of music, usually, those recordering are below 6000 MHz, so you can easily cut the noises over that amount. But with voices you can have an important part of the sound above 6000 MHz, up to 9000 iirc. So you can't delete some of the recordering-noises, even if you have a good program...

However, it adds so much that it should be done even with those technical limitations.

So I think the designers that will include it could leave it optional to download. I mean, they should include it as a separate file.

A last thing: I don't think voice acting is that difficult. The major problem is that you need someone a little grown, I mean, it's esier to do for an adult than for someone below 15 ages...

I've been considering using both voice acting and self-made music for my scenarios ever since the Quest. I started trying more than once, and ended up deciding against it every time. Here are my reasons:

Voice acting can easily double the effort and time which are required for a scenario. The amount of time scenarios require today to score high is already ridiculous if no voice acting is required. Also, if you come to depend on more people to finally send in their voice recordings, many ambitious projects will never be finished because you'll almost always have some people on your team who'll never do their job... and the risk is even higher if you don't pay them for it.

Even if you succeed, the downloads will get so big that only people with very fast internet connections can get them.

Besides, voice acting only enhances a scenario if it fits exactly, and if it is professionally - and convincingly -done. Even professional voice acting is not necessarily good.

Frankly, I'd rather have a scenario without music and voices than a scenario with shoddy plastic music and distorted, unpractised voices cawing through my speakers... this can harm rather than help the scenario. A very long time ago, I played a scenario which I'd probably have forgotten. The only thing that still makes it stand out in my memory was its terrible voice acting, which made me and my chair jump away from the computer.

Then there's the problem that many people in here, like me, are not native speakers of English. If I tried to speak Henry V or George Washington, I wouldn't draw players into the game, I would just send them rolling on the floor laughing.

A reverse problem, which even native speakers have, is fake accents. In 99% of the cases, fake accents will sound like what they are: fake. That was already a problem for me in the original ES campaigns. The storyteller in the Barbarossa campaign videos who tried to speak with a fake German accent and didn't know how to pronounce Barbarossa... ow, ow, ow. The Teuton and Goth villagers in-game who are monotonously speaking a pseudo-German gibberish "Ja. Ja. Das ich soll. Zerstürme. Berrreeeeeeeeeite"... So awful that I hardly ever play those two nations. Fake accents are not only a problem for native speakers of English, mind. I've played some German campaigns from German sites, which were great and often had voice acting... however, although I admired the effort, the voice acting or even mimicking of other German accents or gruff/light voices rarely worked well.

Custom music: Again, nice to have if pulled of well; but the effort is incredible. Also, most designers will not have the ability to make their own good music, let alone record it in a satisfying way. ATW shows what amazing things can be done with good, tailor-made custom music. As a warning for all of us, ATW never got finished and never will. And frankly, Luke, I doubt that it was only the disappointment in the demo rating that made you discontinue. The effort that still lay ahead of you must have played a role as well.

Also, if I came up with a brilliant piece of music and got a brilliant recording of it... hey, I wouldn't throw it away for a scenario, with people copying it and passing it on just like another sound effect, until nobody knows who wrote it. I'd try to sell it!

Overall: Brilliant voice acting and stunning, custom-made music along with overwhelming designs that excel in story, creativity, balance, playability, and map design, and all available and still downloadable for people with slow modems... sounds great, but not very realistic to me.

The design standards are already ridiculously high. Designers who take their work seriously will despair over such standards before they even begin, or be exhausted on the way. The scenarios and campaigns that would continue pouring in would be those from the "I don't care crowd" who pushes the Create Random Map button, places a few buildings and units and then submits their stuff.

Ingo

[This message has been edited by Ingo van Thiel (edited 06-01-2003 @ 07:06 AM).]

Oh ya, the problem with music is the timing. You can't stop a song when it's already played, or can you? I couldn't find anyway to stop my song when I wanted it to stop.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

I disagree. For the following reasons:
1.) A single person, if knows how to do voice acting, can make from 3 to 10 (more for professionists) voices. That are 3-10 characters... so I don't think it would be that hard to find enough people to do voice acting.
2.) Voice acting doesn't take a lot of time, so if you know someone's not reliable, just don't ask him to help. You can search for someone else.
3.) It's not hard to find a voice actor. Especially if you live in a small town. Just ask your friends, your relatives... the only limit is the language knowledge.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

Well, that's correct, unfortunatly. But the same goes for SFX and music............

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

I do not agree, again. It's not hard to do good voice acting. Convincingly done is enough.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

But you have an advantage from that, Ingo!
Your campaigns are not based in a specific place nor time!
You can give them whatever accent you want.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

Well, maybe here I have a big advantage, living in the country with the best dubbers
They translated and dubbed AoK wonderfully, in Italy!

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

With this I partly agree. The standards are really high, but I think little projects can still have a chance to mantain them.

Interesting topic.

Until now there where only two scenarios, which enabled me to identify myself with the characters. Ingos' Siegfried and one of the characters from Bound for Glory by swcarter, forgot who was El Cid or Hrolf. So I think that there is more to it than just VA, SFX and music.

VA is a good tool, but probably not for the characters. Very good use of Ingos' voice: "Dusk fell upon the living and the dead, another bloody day had ended." But I am not sure if the player identifies with the hero if he would speak with Ingos' voice.

SFX is still an interesting topic. Quote from my review: "Sounds, music, noises, voices, the 149 Mp3 and wav sounds bring this campaign to another level of AoK scenario design." What I meant was that every sound fitted, creating atmosphere, making scenes almost real, draging you into the campaign, doors were slamed, a tree fell, joy was expressed with music, even different noises for the donkey, the baby, people screaming, dying, the coughing, avoiding being repetitive. They were not used just because: "- after all, nearly everybody uses it." Which brings me to ATW where you used some of the sounds of Ulio. The sound of the raven, used in Ulio for the beginning scene when the player sees the dead bodies, reducing them to carrion or later the rock slide, indicating that the peace of the forest got disturbed. In ATW the sound of the raven was used for...? It was in the forest, but for which scenes? The sounds for the sneaking up to the guard, they were called something like trem, used in Ulio to underline to be quit, not to be seen and the player holds his breath. Pefect use of sounds. In ATW that same sound was used for a loud scene, where some people were talking, before the bridge explodes. A threatening, ominous sound would fit better. No offence, I like your demo and just needed examples to make my point. Sounds are a good tool to intensify what the designer wants to show, express and create. Music should be used for the same purpose.

Music, well used, is contributing a lot to the enjoyment, fun, playability and creativity a scenario has to offer and can boost these category ratings and here ATW is excellent. I would not go as far to say

Quoted from thread:

, music used repetitive and being too loud in comparison to other game sounds can be quite annoying and lower your fun level. Also

Quoted from review tutorial:

I only know one repetitive music file which was supporting game play throughout the scenario and I didn't get tired hearing, the Swallowed Realm ch. I. Good examples for music used for special scenes, The Nexus, As Britain lay Bleeding, Ulio, ATW and The Covenant, to name a few.

Quoted from Ingo van Thiel:

Yes and no, not when reviewers rate according to the tutorial and the standards of the time.

Just my two cents.

Quote:

Try searching for something caleld goldwave.

I think voice acting can really add something to a scenario, but if it isin't done well, it just sounds silly and takes away from the map as a result. Music can also add quite a lot, as the right track can really help you understand the emotions a character is feeling at a particular point.

Firebird is right: Goldwave is wonderful!

@Tanneur99: well, maybe Ingo should use someone else's voice for the main character, but I think he could "adjust" his own.

For everybody: try to count how many different voices you can use. You'll discover you have more than you think.

Quoted from "Tanneur99":

But so the standards will be higher and higher and higher........
If Ingo would have relased "The Quest" this year, I don't know if you would have given him a 5.0 (however, it's still a great campaign).

[This message has been edited by fede_histpop (edited 06-01-2003 @ 12:11 PM).]

Good points, I agree that custom music and voice acting should only be included if you know what you are doing, or, if you get your resources from someone else who knows what they are doing.

Music that some one else has composed or sound effects add much and I don't think because it takes alot of hard work and effort that it should not be included.

If someone is not willing to make the effort then it may be better for them to just move on to another part of the campaign and save our ears.

I think it would be much closer to 70% of accents that sound fake but then I just made that figure up. Another interesting tin bit is that usually only native speakers of that language can tell if the accent is a fake one. Meaning that if your market is theoretically predominately English then most of the audience would not notice if the speaker was doing a really bad accent in French.

In the long run no one can be told what to include and what not to but people should know what they are getting into.

To summarize the ambition of the project should fit the ambition of the designer and the persons willingness to finish it.

[This message has been edited by Philip Dunscombe (edited 06-01-2003 @ 12:16 PM).]

Is it ok if I use famous artists' music and put their name in credits? Or is it better to make your own music (I have a guitar and microphone) and use that? I find many Metallica and Iron Maiden songs good for medieval -theme.

Well it's ok to use those songs in your scenario or campaign, the only way it would be illegal is if you had to buy scenarios, and your getting credit for the money that the artist did. But scenarios are free, the artist doesn't get money no matter what so it will be ok. And I think you should give the artist credit

I already said that I would give credit...

But I thought some people would think I'm lazy for using known songs. Oh well, nevermind

I know you said to give him credit, but I was answering that question.

@ Ingo:

Quote:

Hm, both reasons play a part.

Quote:

It's far more realistic than it sounds, Ingo.

@ Tanneur:

Quote:

Same reason. A burning forest isn't exactly peaceful, no? There's another reason, but none of you will ever see it because I discontinued it. Yeah...

Quote:

The sounds were used to build up the atmosphere, to make the player feel that something ugly was coming up.

Quote:

That's where you go wrong, with all due respect. You are comparing the utility of a sound in Ulio with the utility of the same sound in ATW. That's like comparing banana's and apples.

I thank Ingo for allowing me to use his sounds, but I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't have been better to just get my hands on my own...

Quoted from fede_histpop:

Oh...I think you got me wrong. I said

Quoted from myself:

I wanted to express that any voice, not being the one of the player, would make it difficult to identify with the hero.

I said this before in this thread, is it possible to stop a song after it was triggered? There must be another way besides listening to it all.

There is, but can you take that question to Kestrel's thread?

I like a good discussion.

Quoted from fede_histpop:

That's what I used to think. I like imitating voices. But thinking those imitations also work well for campaigns... Hearing my imitations recorded cured me quickly.

Quoted from fede_histpop:

You make it sound very easy... have you actually tried that? I have, saw it made my scenarios worse rather than better, and scrapped all my mp3 files except for the OK one Tanneur mentioned.

DeKont actually tried to see the voice acting thing through, and his Rage of the Dutch Fisherman got delayed for two years - due to voice actors who didn't do their job.

About accents:

Quoted from fede_histpop:

What about Gyda's Challenge? Besides, I was speaking in general, as I'm not actively designing anymore. (I'm staying because I like it here.) I'm more concerned other designers who are still active might get daunted - by even higher standards which require even more than doing a good design.

If somebody wants to see his project through with voice acting, tailor-made music and all, great! Luke, I can assure you one thing: As far as I can see, about one sixth of ATW is finished if the full campaign will have three scenarios. If you do change your mind and complete ATW with three scenarios, and at the present level of quality from beginning to end, you're guaranteed to get a nice, shiny, official 5.0 and a rave review from me. The potential is already there... seeing it through at this level is the challenge. It would also show us that what you're suggesting to your fellow designers is a realistic thing to ask... and wouldn't it be fun to prove me wrong?

Ingo

[This message has been edited by Ingo van Thiel (edited 06-01-2003 @ 01:09 PM).]

Quote:

You sly dog. Trying to talk me back to designing, eh?

He he...

Well this is discussion about Music in scenarios, I thought this was the place to do so.

Well...
I would like to hear a game with bad voice acting, so long as it is intended.
And anyone who can do voice acting deserves my applause because I have trouble speaking in front of 30, let alone 3'000 which I think is a rough estimate of the people who would download a scenario.
so...
I'd say that you should not criticise anyone unless you have done better.

I love good discussions!!

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

And I hearing mine and my friend and right arm at HisPop told me exactly the opposite. But I think you was a too severe judge.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

Of course. And if you would have read all you would have read that too. I said it before.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

The project where I used voice acting, that unfortunatly for you is in italian, had a one day delay caused by voice acting... one day.

Quoted from "Ingo van Thiel":

So it was forever... I thought one day you would have returned at active designing... Many legends said many kings of the past should return, one day, and take their throne back... (I know, Ulio'll stay at the top, especially if ATW won't be finished, but it could have applied too...).

Quoted from Ingo van Thiel:

@ Luke

Quote:

Screaming birds above a burning site instead of fleeing? Well, the sound would have worked the moment the houses were set on fire.

Quote:

Aren't you acting a bit childish for your age?

Quote:

The sounds create a tense, quiet atmosphere and didn't work for a group of people talking.

Quote:

There would not be such a variety of sounds if any sound would fit any scenario.

Quote:

Some fitted your scenario well, the two above not. So there is no reason for a designer to create all sounds himself.

Regarding my review claiming it made you stop designing, putting the fault on me, claiming an overall 5.0 in your thread from reviewers, abusing your authority as a HG Angel, asking others to judge for themselves:

In general a demo which is complete, stands on its own, is rated like a finished scenario with no deduction for being a demo or teaser.

I rated your scenario as if it would be complete without any deduction.

Quoted from AngelSpineman 03/04/17:

Is your scenario complete?

Quoted from AngelSpineman 03/04/17:

Does a scenario work on its own accord if you can't finish the first playable objective?

In other words, even if playability and balance would have been also a 5.0, deductions should have been made for the above, which was not even done.

Taking all that into account a designer should at least deliver something complete, even if it's short to claim a 5.0

[This message has been edited by Tanneur99 (edited 06-01-2003 @ 02:00 PM).]

Quoted from fede_histpop:

You had the advantage of speaking in your native language (not to mention the advantage of having good friends), but Ingo van Thiel and many other designers including me, face the challenge of speaking English as a second language.
It is much harder to produce a good voice when you are not talking in your native language, so comparing your campaign in Italian to Ulio is completely ridiculous!

If you speak English as a second language you can have the advantage of having a naturaly built in accent.

Yeah, if I had to voice a German who tries to speak English, sat vud be a great atventitsh. The trouble is, not all of my campaign's characters are Germans who try to speak English...

I tried a german accent once I failed horribly best I can get is the count thing going.
http://www.flashpointstudios.com/sampleslow.html

If you scroll down to Foreign Languages & Character Voices and click on the Marc.

I did a promo for them once, yes, I am actuely that crazy(what was I thinking).

[This message has been edited by Philip Dunscombe (edited 06-01-2003 @ 02:58 PM).]