Nice. Anywho, after seeing the debate topic part of the post, I think that it'd be cool to continue this discussion here, at least for a while. Guthan wanted the thread closed, but I'm interested in everyone's opinion, and I'd like to discuss it more here if the other topic is closed.

Good idea/bad idea?

Well, my campaign that will be finished a long time from now will try to overcome such obstacles, I can tell ya that. And I haven't yet found an EXACT cure, I might have to do some .dat editing. The graphics are all good enough, but I can't say for what exactly.

data editing is cool

So, let me get this straight, this is a bit like a 'spamming' area where you can freely talk without going off-topic?
And if you guys want to continue with the discussion I started, no problem. My opinion was clear I think

GReetings,
Guthan

It's basically to discuss anything scenario related. Spamming is at Town's Crier, this has questions about designing that don't warrant a thread and subjects like this one here to be talked about.

o...

I only look here cause I find this the most interesting Thread

Seminars, hmm..

As for screenshots, here are some random ones, discuss..






At one time I wanted to have a modding screenshot competition, but it failed badly

[This message has been edited by Jatayu (edited 01-02-2009 @ 07:32 AM).]

is it that All Roads Lead To Rome modpack?
of not, please tell me which xD

I love the hoplites from AOE

nice screenies anyway

the last one... Ents?

what units are these spearmen?

They look cool

I made the screenshots over a year ago

The first one uses 'Aoe roman modpack' by myself.

The second uses 'Battles of Middle Earth' mod.

Updated the topic post with the first design tutorial.

Also, my opinions on the whole guns in AoK thing: In AoE3, there is a modpack that converts much of the game into the crusades, so people could design medieval scenarios. In Age of Mythology there was a modpack to convert nations to Rome for Roman scenarios. The editor is just a tool, and different people do different things with that tool. Not everyone will like your designs, but nobody can draw a line as to what 'should' be designed with a game.

lol, I never downloaded a tool for Age of Mythology and I don't want to buy AOE III cause I played the demo and I didn't liked it

and you are right... There is no line. But there should be a guideline

Starcraft for example is good enough for alien attacks and human's last stand.

Age of Kings isn't a good tool to design alie attacks. (Zombie attack either actually) unless you use a modpack.
DAta editing is possible also, but you can't change the looks of it.

So, if you make our own scenario, we just look to what we like?
I don't think so. Every human will think about what will some1 else say about it and might edit it's own flavor of designing. (Maybe this is translated to literally )

dam, I have to watch out what I say or I won't be allowed to make my own fantasy scenario's anymore lol

But there should be a guideline

Why? If someone got kicks out of making a scenario based around Lego it's no problem of yours.

Good job with the topic post, matty.

[This message has been edited by Julius999 (edited 01-02-2009 @ 02:21 PM).]

Guthan,
I think you're missing an opportunity to grow as a designer here. Perhaps even more importantly I don't think you have a good sense of your potential fans (the gamers playing this 9 year old game), or the greater gaming culture we all continue to take part in.

In defense of your viewpoint, I think all would concede that the graphics of AoK are best suited to suspending disbelief in a scenario with a medieval theme right out of the box. However, there are many more aspects of the editor that can help us overcome the limitations of the graphics and suspend disbelief in other themes such as modern warfare, fantasy, or sci-fi.

I've fought off hordes of Zombies, and encountered many mythological, and paranormal fantasy characters in my time playing custom scenario designs (all without graphic mods).

I was satisfied, and often captivated by these designs because of the many features given by designers to overcome the limitations of the graphics. Some times something as simple as renaming a unit or object was enough. However, the sheer originality and bold creativity of these themes and features were perhaps the most important to my enjoyment.

Like a good story, a good game is inspired by all the games and game-play which have preceded it, and is part of a kind of cultural tradition that we access through the common criteria known about games. In other words, there exists a great number of gamers that culturally do not consider graphics to be the be all end all of a good game, or in this case an AoK scenario.

So, for these fans and designers (like me), to place limits on themes just due to the challenges the AoK graphics pose, might seem to indicate a lack of imagination -- or at least a lack of knowledge for the known role it plays in game design and game-play.

Every human will think about what will some1 else say about it

It's a given that playing games and game-play is deeply rooted in the human experience. Still, visual cues and graphics are just one aspect of a game that helps to suspend disbelief. When we consider game and gaming culture, the "awesome graphics" aspect that we enjoy now is a relatively new phenomenon.

Anyway, the point I'm making perhaps can only be described by my being facetious here, and questioning; if you think graphics are so important then why aren't ModPacks more popular?

-- Well, one of the reasons is the mere installation of them seems to work against the aspect of escape, amusement, and suspension of disbelief that many of us are seeking through playing custom AoK scenarios. OK, I'll end my pendantic diatribe with this exercise:

1. Think of an AoK relic.

2. Think of it renamed as a pop-corn machine.

Can you imagine it?

Again, good topic. Now please go and complete that Fantasy scenario.

*eats pop-corn*

[This message has been edited by AnastasiaKafka (edited 01-03-2009 @ 07:46 AM).]

1. Think of an AoK relic.

2. Think of it renamed as a pop-corn machine.

Can you imagine it?

The strange thing is...I could.

I don't see how it could be put into a scenerio though.

The argument sort of reminds me of a discussion earlier on, which dealt with quite the opposite. Someone claimed that making historical scenarios was a lesser form of designing, because it didn't require originality - you were just following facts, after all - and that they even should be marked down in the story department because the author didn't think it all up himself.

This present argument strikes me as much the same, even if it is sort of inverted. Even if something has an advantage in some department - a story being invented in its entirety, or graphics more easily gelling together with a certain setting - it is the job of the designer to make it fit. I've seen historical scenarios that were ludicrous, no more than massive armies (very regularly Braveheart-themed) stacked together on a bland map opposite each other and launching into an assault right off the bat. There was no form of any realism present here, even if the units in the game should more than suffice (but when did an army consist of mostly Champions and Arbalesters?).
Similarly, there were fantasy scenarios that had dreadful storyline, with no real creativity.

This is because an advantage in one department does not in any way guarantee the success of a project. If a designer is good, as Ana has just said, he knows what he can and can not achieve, and he will pull it off successfully. Think, for example, of Heroes of Meadowkeep, which actually features Orcs yet cannot fail to pull in the player on a more emotional level than the vast majority of Blacksmith contributions. This is fantasy on a level beyond Ulio or other Ingo van Thiel projects (which are made up, but feature only humans and plausible situations), but it does not harm the project in any way.

Apart from that, there's a serious danger inherent to your argument, Guthan. Guidelines about what you can and cannot design? Seriously, perish the thought. Why would you even want to do that? There are limits on what people can and cannot do, but these are moral - ie no overly offensive content, for example.

I don't see how it could be put into a scenerio though.

*sigh* I just demonstrated the how. Alas, one can only lead a horse to water...really Epic, either you want some pop-corn or not?? -- if you want carmel peanut clusters then you'll have to rename the gold mine!

Edit: As usual Kor you've struck at the heart of the issue, and have said what I might have said if only I were as eloquent, as talented, and as accomplished of a scenario designer as you are.

[This message has been edited by AnastasiaKafka (edited 01-03-2009 @ 08:00 AM).]

hmmm

I most have expressed myself wrong from the start...

Anyway. I agree Ana, if the designer succeed in a good scenario or project with a non-medieval theme and the players believe that they aren't in the medieval surroundings anymore, I would like it.

Unfortunately, there aren't that many scenario's lately!
When I said Guidelines, I actually meant some sort of walkthrough which would help you designing the right things for the right theme, to help you on your way to the end lol.

And ana, potential fans? I don't think I have them (yet )
Finish that Fantasy project? You'll have to wait a few years I think
I have 2 other projects before I'm going to work on my RPG one

Kor, I like Historical battles which bring me deeply into the history of men kind.

You are one who succeeded in that part the most (My opinion)
like you said, there are to many massive battles which should describe a historical battle. In Age of Chivalry there are huge battles as well, but it's more realistic (in some way ) and it's less just attack your enemy brainless

Now, before I continue, sorry for all my mistakes, this keyboard is really shitty and I want my own laptop back lol, so forgive me

Now how should I continue...
The reason I started this project is because I saw Halo : Combat Evolved appearing in the blacksmith and a bit later Hitman

I had high hopes about the Halo : CE, but after I saw the screenie, (no names changed, no hp, barely map design, blank map with a few things placed on it) I got disappointed.

When you think further, Halo is some sort of RPG, and it's almost impossible to make Halo look good in AOK. Actually it is impossible. People who play(ed) Halo like me should agree with it.

Then the hitman thingy. I never saw it, but a friend of mine is a huge fan (like my nephew)
I heard it's a bit like 'The Transporter' and o my god, how can you expres that in AOK?
If you want to get it that way, why wouldn't you become original, and convert the crime of today, into crime in medieval times?

There always was crime. They are orginazed, now the cops still have to get orginazed lol.

You could try to use a hand cart of something as the car which transports weapons to another country or rebels so they can start a war. Plenty of stuff to make a good Hitman scenario in AOK theme.

For RPG we have enough things as well. The triggers do the must work. But some RPG's aren't meant to be tried to make in AOK.

This because it's impossible, and an attempt to make one, should be doomed to fail.

I don't say this is for everyone, but com'on, agree with me, some things simply aren't able to make, how hard you try (or not...)

Guthan, I'll agree with you in principle about the challenges presented in creating a scenario that would at the conceptual level set out to be another game entirely (or exactly). Moreover, the challenge of just pleasing a hard core fan of Halo in an adaptation of theme or other elements of the game does seem a tall order, and perhaps given the time restraints we all have might not be worth pursuing.

However, as I read your example I can't help thinking that you could probably make an excellent scenario that was based in some part on Halo, and have fans of both games enjoy it. -- I mean I think the concern you have for those projects you mentioned is that they were undeveloped, while at the same time our unhealthy desire as Halo fans is to have one approach a Halo project with the same skill and production as a project like Age of Chivalry possesses.

[This message has been edited by AnastasiaKafka (edited 01-03-2009 @ 09:12 AM).]

hehe, maybe we do.

So you can't help thinking I would?
Let me help you I won't

I see no way how I could combine Halo with any project I'm making.

It would be a good joke however to make some anti-cheat with master-chief and cortana or something

And really, if some1 would be able to make perfect Halo scenario without a modpack, I'll eat my computer after blaming him (or her!) for never showing up again here

You can try, but if it fails, people don't have to ask like

*please give me feedback or reviews...*
*Why do I have less downloads and no comments?*
*PLEASE DOWNLOAD AND REVIEW*

srr but in my eyes that's just pathetic

lawl, I just checked Ingo Von Thiels myspace, and I saw Ana

must be you, did you really shaved your legs just for that picture?

If you make it, I has ice cream and cakes.

*laughs* Yes, no, by all means, and yet that pic is right here in the AOKH pic thread (Sherlock). Still, thanks for the mention.

*laughs* Yes, no, by all means, and yet that pic is right here in the AOKH pic thread (Sherlock). Still, thanks for the mention.

I did see the Piece by Piece thread and also the screenshot contest thread. But there is no pic thread, not even named Sherlock. Could you tell me where I could find it Ana?

Town's Crier. It's a sticky.

no lawl xD

Go to Ingo Von Thiels profile, his myspace and search for ana between his top 8 favo friends xD

Looks like you've got yourself some new fans ana

Looks like you've got yourself some new fans ana

Imagine how delighted I was to discover mosts of yous were boys here on the interweb, cause for the longest time I thought yous was all girls yo.

o.O

You got the be kidding me!

You thought I was GIRL?

well shame on you then xD

Guthan I know you a girl yo? You gots a girl name yo? You should put your pic in teh AOKH Picture Thread yo!

[This message has been edited by AnastasiaKafka (edited 01-03-2009 @ 12:44 PM).]

Boys (and girls), please refrain from turning this into another SS. Matty has attested to it in the first paragraph.

Truthfully, I don't see these whole argumentations that revolves around adapting sophisticated technologies represented by guns or lasers as something that warrants a merry discussion. Yes, AoK has its inevitable limits when it comes to modern warfare, specifically in terms of graphics and technical issues. Yes, the most advanced mechanism that could be found in the puny world of AoK is gunpowder. But there's always the key that's able to open so many doors that have detained the game since the day of its creation -- mods.

Why should anyone be telling another that it's ludicrous to even bother trying to make an an adaptation of Halo 3 with AoK engine? Why should anyone be telling another to turn into SW:GB or Starcraft when they're making an effort to plot a story involving space marines and aliens? No one has the right to either compel or prohibit any designer from making or not making something they wish to make. Creativity is not something to be killed.

I didn't follow through the whole discussion, so I might be missing the main subject here.

I have no idea how such a ridiculous argument as limiting our designing horizons even got to this point. The best answer to this is simply ignoring it.

BTW, this thread really asks for a cockblocker to arrive...

Andan, It seems as though you're not missing anything of the discussion, however I maintained that graphic mods are not necessary to an adaptation of a modern or otherwise non medieval themes. Kor's post summed it up for me best.

As to turning this into SS, try to imagine yourself in my place. I appreciate the good advice though, and I apologize for any harm.

I have no idea how such a ridiculous argument as limiting our designing horizons even got to this point. The best answer to this is simply ignoring it.

Because often the most ridiculous argument is the one that compels us to think about our own views more deeply than we would have otherwise. That and debate is one of the purposes outlined by Matty for the thread. For my part I thought it was a good subject to get our feet wet if you will. The only thing worse than a cock-blocker is...I'll let you and Andan figure it out.

[This message has been edited by AnastasiaKafka (edited 01-03-2009 @ 01:57 PM).]

O.O

Are you drunk ana?
Do I even sound like a girl to you? xD

I'm a boy... But I'm a bit younger then most of you...

I don't want to limit everyone's creativity...

Everyone, Please forgive me for the "Off Topic" again, but this is important for me to explain.

Guthan, I'm not drunk. Forgive me too, because you were the one who seemed drunk with disregard in your posts here to me. I hoped that the sillyness in those posts wouldn't escape you (they were jokes).

Still, I want you to remember the dread you felt at merely being thought of as being a girl, and you'll have a slight sense of what it is like being one. For instance, your reaction here to finding a pic of me on Ingo's myspace was however unintentionally, degrading.

Please understand that people (men and women), disrespect us (women) often, and think nothing of it. They seem to lose all sense of civility, and go out of their way to do this -- it's a lot like what you did by going off topic and double posting the information you discovered just for your own amusement. This happens to men and women from other segments of society too. So, perhaps everyone can understand my being a little gun shy as it were.

Honestly, I was willing to just laugh and make some self deprecating jokes about it, but what really triggered this explanation is that you didn't even seem to get that I was joking. That is a red flag for me offline.

OK, you're young and I respect that, but I want you to know that I'm a long time bra wearing member of this community, and to this community's credit I've not felt the need to explain something like this before here in the forums.

So, hopefully you understand why I didn't quite appreciate being treated like a novelty of sorts in your off topic post. Let alone the disruption (CoC violations) caused by the outburst. Still, I don't want you to sweat my explaination either, rather I just want you to take these things into consideration as you participate here with me, because in my view you are an interesting person to communicate with and fun to be with online.

Good God, Guthan, do you have to take everything literally? Sometimes I want to cry reading your posts...

Someone (can't remember, and can't bother to check), mentioned "the War of Troy" and the boat scene in it. I almost mentioned that myself. To me that is the borderline; it almost worked for me, and yet was a bit too much at the same time. I bet alot of players were impressed by it, and I was too actually, but I think it required me to stretch a bit too far.

Also, Kor mentioned Historical vs. Fiction and I just wanted to make the point that I feel presenting something everyone already knows in a way that will captivate them is a lot harder than creative storytelling in fictional campaigns. Just my thought, but I always found it easier to create something fictional than something historical that didn't feel dry.

EDIT: I don't want to give the impression nobody can go off topic, so don't feel stifled by any means (not that you guys would anyway). Just refrain from mindless spam which destroyed this thread before.

[This message has been edited by Matt LiVecchi (edited 01-03-2009 @ 05:49 PM).]

Also, Kor mentioned Historical vs. Fiction and I just wanted to make the point that I feel presenting something everyone already knows in a way that will captivate them is a lot harder than creative storytelling in fictional campaigns. Just my thought, but I always found it easier to create something fictional than something historical that didn't feel dry.

I agree. While all my campaigns have some historical setting, I think it is more difficult to stay both true to your sources and tell a compelling story/gameplay experience. It is tempting to just go off and recreate historical events as they happened, but you'll often have no compelling story at all (especially if you're dealing with short term events, like battles, rather than wars or campaigns). I think it does add to the player's enjoyment if there is someone to relate to, even if the scenario is a single, stand-alone, battle, and I think if you actually go back and forth between various named characters to check if they are alright (either because you will be punished if they or because you actually care about them) as well as keeping an eye on the larger tactical/strategic situation, a project will be more enjoyable. If it is merely two vast hordes fighting each other with no regard for lives, even if that is how it happened, it'll be bland and uninspiring.

I have to say there were excellent historical battles that I enjoyed learning about but had to discard as projects, because I could not think of any interesting way of doing them. Case in point would be Morgarten, a battle in which the Swiss beat back the army of the Habsburg dukes. It was a magnificent battle in history, but I could not think of any way to imagine it which wasn't a lesser variant of my siege of Prague scenario, except without the siege and limited to the battle. It just didn't work.

That doesn't mean that others can't bring life to that particular conflict, far from it; but in the way I reconstruct historical events I couldn't add anything to it.

Kor, I like Historical battles which bring me deeply into the history of men kind.

You are one who succeeded in that part the most (My opinion)
like you said, there are to many massive battles which should describe a historical battle. In Age of Chivalry there are huge battles as well, but it's more realistic (in some way ) and it's less just attack your enemy brainless

Thanks.

Ana, not speaking English as his native tongue, Guthan might also not have understood your humour. It is very difficult to 'get' comedy. I know it took me a while to know when someone was joking or serious, and I know my jokes are still misunderstood by some from time to time.
(Not that your point is wrong, of course, quite the contrary; but it might help to explain the situation.)

[This message has been edited by Kor (edited 01-03-2009 @ 06:19 PM).]

Quoted from Matty:

Someone (can't remember, and can't bother to check), mentioned "the War of Troy" and the boat scene in it. I almost mentioned that myself. To me that is the borderline; it almost worked for me, and yet was a bit too much at the same time. I bet alot of players were impressed by it, and I was too actually, but I think it required me to stretch a bit too far.

I mentioned it having worked closely with Sceletar on it. Yea, I hold the same sentiments as you, and yet did not advise a reworking or alternate scene for it -- because I thought it was at least bold enough that people like us, who found it a stretch would at least be impressed by the creativity inherent in the feature.

Quoted from Kor:

Ana, not speaking English as his native tongue, Guthan might also not have understood your humour.

*ana rosana dana* Oh?...Nevermind.

Seriously though, thanks for pointing that out Kor, as it is comforting for me to consider.