Not bad

Overall, this is a really great article, but I think you have a few minor mistakes.

First off, you gave the Huns a B+ for cavalry. 20% faster stables, FU Paladins and Hussars, not to mention Elite Tarkans. Don't you think they shine for an A? Is it the fact that they lack Camels that they don't get that A? Just wondering.

Ot the Visigoth
-Somebody, please tell me how I change my forum name-

Great stuff. One disagreement, Teutonic monks B-? Don't you think that all techs and extra heal range should give them an A?

The Koreans navy should be a B+ at least. They're only missing the demo ships and have the most powerful naval unit, the turtle ship.

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The Aztecs Infantry: A Archers: D+ Cavalry: F Monks: A Siege: C+ Navy: D+ Walls/Towers: C Economy: C

Worst civ?

Um yeah...Teuton Monks get every tech plus have a bonus, so why they only B- in your opinion?

It was nice to see you siding with ME on something TSD. (Reffering to the 2 new loud mouths in your TK/Ele thread.)

Okay, now I defend myself

The Huns Cavalry grade was because they didn't get camels. I was grading pretty strict here, B+ is a good grade. Notice how it is the second best cavalry grade out there.

Teutonic Monks: Oops, I forgot about that bonus. I will raise their grade.

The Korean Navy missing demo ships is a big problem. They have no small-numbers counter for fires.

But I'm still a little uncertain about this. Maybe you can sway me yet with a little more arguing . I guess I haven't seen Turtle Ships very much in action. All I know is that they lose to fires (costwise) and beat everything else (costwise). Each turtle costs a treb, so if you could flood the seas with them you would rule, but it seems to me they are too difficult to mass.

Aztecs worst civ?

Eh, I wouldn't say so. Remeber that an A is very rare (I'm such a stickler ) so their monks are tied for first and their infantry is tied for second.

I would like to say that doing this really helped me evaluate what strats are good for which civs. This was mostly obvious stuff, but it sure helps to see it all layed out.

If any civ looks undeservedly bad on here it's the Huns. Maybe I should bump their econ grade for the housing bonus. (I already did, but maybe it's worth more than that). Thoughts?

If any civ looks awesome here it's the Saracens. Maybe I should give them a second look. They were high on my list before, but now they are looking more appealing.

The Aztecs also had an F and two Ds. If I brought home a report card like that, I wouldn't be playing the Aztecs (or any civ) for a month.

*notices the Goth's F and two Ds*

The A+ counters that. 1 A+ is better than 2 As

blah blah blah blah blah

*rambles on nonsensically for a while.*

The Korean's enemy can't get fire ships when all their docks are destroyed by turtle ships.

The Korean Navy missing demo ships is a big problem. They have no small-numbers counter for fires.

Turtle ships sink fire ships in a ration of 2 to 5.

2 Turtle Ships: 400 wood, 400 gold

5 Fire Ships: 375 wood, 225 gold

The Vikings got a B+ and they have no small numbers counter for galleys.

Yeah, whatever. Don't say it. I know what you are thinking.

Fire ships come out faster than turtles because other civs can castle faster than Koreans can castle and build a castle. And turtle ships build slow too.

Best use of turtle that I can think of is somebody covers for Korean during team game. Then they take to the seas with 20 or so turtle ships and blow everyone else away.
Either that or turles are used to counter galleys. But they die to fires.

Remember that in my school a C is a decent grade. (Not my real school, my fictitious AoK civ school.)

I think Huns should get an A+ for cav.

I'll have to side with Von in this one....Koreans may be THE best naval civ...try it in the scenario editor...fireships counter turtles, but they still don't die as easily as you think. Massed galleons(at least 20) and a few E. turtles and f. fires will sink anything.

A couple of points to consider - many of your judgements are a little open to debate.

AZTECS - I would give their navy at least a D- or F, worst in the game, lacking tohe last galley line upgrade and lacking any CG; I would not rrank their economy so low given their carrying bonus - it really makes their economy shine and makes up for any other perceived deficiencies - give them at least a C+ or B for econ.

BRITONS - I would give their navy a D due to lack of ANY CG, and would upgrade their WALLS/TOWERS to a C+ or B since their UT gives them better attack than average towers.

CELTS - also missing several important navy upgrades (ECG, FFS, Bracer), would not rank this navy above D.

You also could add another category to grade, speed, which in many ways is one of the most important grades possible in this flush-happy game. It definitely is not the same as economy in the long run.

[This message has been edited by RF_Gandalf (edited 11-06-2001 @ 09:14 AM).]

FIrst of all, I would like to poijnt out that this is a nice report card, very creative, but unfortunately, it could be open for debate.

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The Mayans Infantry: B Archers: B+ Cavalry: F Monks: C Siege: C Navy: C Walls/Towers: C+ Economy: B-

Mayans have cheaper walls, not sure about towers though, but no one uses towers after the feudal age.

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I think Huns should get an A+ for cav.

No way. They are missing camels. Remember B+ is a good grade. In fact it the second best cavalry grade given.

Maybe I will rank the civ's in every catagory. That would make them easier to read.

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I'll have to side with Von in this one....Koreans may be THE best naval civ...try it in the scenario editor...fireships counter turtles, but they still don't die as easily as you think. Massed galleons(at least 20) and a few E. turtles and f. fires will sink anything.

I am considering the expense and slow build time of the turtle ships. In some ways they are like the elephants of the sea. Big and powerful, but difficult to mass. (And yes, I have tested massed turtles vs. bigger mass of fires.)

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AZTECS - I would give their navy at least a D- or F, worst in the game, lacking tohe last galley line upgrade and lacking any CG; I would not rrank their economy so low given their carrying bonus - it really makes their economy shine and makes up for any other perceived deficiencies - give them at least a C+ or B for econ.

Okay, I change Navy to D- and Economy to B.

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BRITONS - I would give their navy a D due to lack of ANY CG, and would upgrade their WALLS/TOWERS to a C+ or B since their UT gives them better attack than average towers.

Okay, I change Navy to C- and Walls/Towers to C+.

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CELTS - also missing several important navy upgrades (ECG, FFS, Bracer), would not rank this navy above D.

I change Celts to C-.

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You also could add another category to grade, speed, which in many ways is one of the most important grades possible in this flush-happy game. It definitely is not the same as economy in the long run.

I tried to make economy a sort of combination a sort of joint combination of early and late game, mostly because I don't have much knowledge of speed and I am a little suspicious of the "common sense" that the "slow civs" are useless for rushing.

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I would like to poijnt out that this is a nice report card, very creative, but unfortunately, it could be open for debate.

That was the idea

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Mayans have cheaper walls, not sure about towers though, but no one uses towers after the feudal age.

Eh, I'm not so sure about that one. I gave them a C for missing bombard towers and then upped it to C+ for wall bonus. I don't think it is such a big deal because walls are so cheap to being with.

Thanks to everyone for your input

cool post!

CELTS A+ in SIEGE!!!!!!! NOW!
what were you thinking??? Celts don't need BC when they have bonused Trebuchets,

and mongols cant be B- in siege, A- is better
Heavy Sc, SO, SIEGE RAM! and all 50% faster

Saracens: have arguable the best cavalry unit in game. FU bonused Heavy Camel, FU Hussar, FU bonused Cavalry Archer... Make em B+ is my suggestion. And Huns an A

britons D+ in cavalry
Celts D+ in cavalry
Celts have much better cavalry than britons, celts do get hussar and paladin.

hehehehe, b+ to chinese siege, b- to mongols?

[This message has been edited by MaD_King (edited 11-06-2001 @ 10:42 AM).]

Vikings get a C for archers?

Thier arbalests and skirms are FU and powerful. Thats not a good score for that catagory.

Very good! I think I now may have a fav civ

Re: Mongols

The Mongols
Infantry: C
Can't argue with that.

Archers: A-
Presumably, this includes horse archers and mangudai. Otherwise, the score would not be that high.

Cavalry: C+
I'd argue that the 117-hit-point hussar gives the Mongols a "B" here.

Monks: D
Possibly, this should be a "F." Mongols have the worst monks in the game, bar none.

Siege: B-
Here, I strongly disagree. Players who love bombard cannons probably feel differently. I would much rather have drill than bombards.

Navy: B-
No argument.

Walls/Towers: C-
No argument.

Economy: B-
No argument.

Nice try, but allow me to point out the five most obvious mistakes

Mayan archers: best Unique archer unit in the game, 30% discount on all archery range units, and still you rank Brits and even Chinese higher in this category, come on!
And don't even bring up cav-archers, like that would be a bonus for Brits

Turk siege: C bombard cannons and galleons anyone? At least B- would be my suggestion

Mongol siege: B- ? think again. Celts lack bombard cannons as well, and they get an A?

Mongol and Saracen infantry:they're identical, so why different grades?

Saracen Cavalry:Persian grade A cav is no match for 'em!

Chinese siege: no SE, SO or BC, gotta rank 'em lower despite their bonused scorps.

You're not even following your own rules regarding what a civ has to have to get certain grades

I Think I have a rating system for the grades that would work once the civs get their ummmmm..... adjusted grades.

A+ 14 points
A 13 points
A- 12 points
B+ 11 points
B 10 points
B- 9
C+ 8
C 7
C- 6
D+ 5
D 4
D- 3
F+ 2
F 1

This way if you add up all the grades you will be able to compare the civs better (In one sense).

The Biz increase calvery and infantry, Celts increase Economy, Chinese Increase Economy, Increase Franks Infantry and Calvery, Increase Jap Seige, Korean Increase Navy and Monks, Increase Mayan Archers and Walls, Increase Scaricen Archers, Calvery, and Monks, Increase Spanish Calvery and monks.

First, let me thank everyone who took the time to make suggestions.

Second, let me clarify my grading scale. As was implied on the top, B means having everything, C means missing a little, D means missing a lot, and F means missing it all. Any bonuses will boost a grade. So if your grade is a D but you have bonuses, you will get is moved up to a D+, C-, maybe even C or C+ is the bonus is really good.

Okay, now to the suggestions.

MaD_King:

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CELTS A+ in SIEGE!!!!!!! NOW! what were you thinking??? Celts don't need BC when they have bonused Trebuchets

They already have the highest siege grade so far. I don't give up A+'s so easily.

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and mongols cant be B- in siege, A- is better Heavy Sc, SO, SIEGE RAM! and all 50% faster

No Bombard Cannon would drop them down to a C. The bonus moves them up to a B-.

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Saracens: have arguable the best cavalry unit in game. FU bonused Heavy Camel, FU Hussar, FU bonused Cavalry Archer... Make em B+ is my suggestion

No Cavalier would put them at a C- or worse. Their UT and UU took them up to the B.

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And Huns an A

No Camels.

Winston:

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Vikings get a C for archers? Thier arbalests and skirms are FU and powerful. Thats not a good score for that catagory.

No heavy cav archer, no parthian tactics, no hand canonneer.

aoerana:

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Very good! I think I now may have a fav civ

What is it?

Doug Thompson:

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Archers: A- Presumably, this includes horse archers and mangudai. Otherwise, the score would not be that high.

Yes, horse archers are included.

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Cavalry: C+ I'd argue that the 117-hit-point hussar gives the Mongols a "B" here.

No Paladins and no Plate Barding Armor. That brought them to a C and the Hussar bonus up to C+. Maybe I'd change it if you could convice me the Hussar bonus is worth more than I currently think it is.

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Monks: D Possibly, this should be a "F." Mongols have the worst monks in the game, bar none.

Well, I ranked Persians lower because they need Heresey so badly. I know it isn't really a monk tech but it is related to conversion and it researched at the Monestary.

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Siege: B- Here, I strongly disagree. Players who love bombard cannons probably feel differently. I would much rather have drill than bombards.

No Bombard Cannon would drop them down to a C. The bonus moves them up to a B-. If you can convince me Drill is more usefull than Bombard Cannons I would change it.

Enriquillo

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Mayan archers: best Unique archer unit in the game, 30% discount on all archery range units, and still you rank Brits and even Chinese higher in this category, come on! And don't even bring up cav-archers, like that would be a bonus for Brits

Every archery range unit was considered, including cav archers and hand canonneers.

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Turk siege: C bombard cannons and galleons anyone? At least B- would be my suggestion

Cannon galleons are part of their navy. Their lack of onagers lowered that grade.

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Mongol siege: B- ? think again. Celts lack bombard cannons as well, and they get an A?

No Bombard Cannon would drop them down to a C. The bonus moves them up to a B-. If you can convince me Drill is more usefull than Bombard Cannons I would change it.

Celts have two bonuses and a UT.

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Mongol and Saracen infantry:they're identical, so why different grades?

Oops I will fix that one.

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Saracen Cavalry:Persian grade A cav is no match for 'em!

Saracens are lacking Cavaliers. Persians get every cavalry unit, plus elephants.

Also, I would like to point out that I did not rate cavalry, or any other unit catagory, based on head-to-head combat. I based it on the best possible use of that unit, i.e. you would ideally used archers to fight infantry, not other archers.

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Chinese siege: no SE, SO or BC, gotta rank 'em lower despite their bonused scorps.

Hmm, I'm not sure why I rated them so high. I think a C is definitely more appropriate.

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You're not even following your own rules regarding what a civ has to have to get certain grades

See my revised explanation.

Gills:

I will respond to yours but I gtg now.

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The Goths Infantry: A+ Archers: C- Cavalry: D+ Monks: D+ Siege: C Navy: C Walls/Towers: F Economy: B-

D+ for cavalry!?!?!??They have at least a C- there,they have hussars and cavaliers which are pretty good.Archers C-,does that include hand cannons?if so that should be just a C IMO.Siege,who needs it when you have hordes of infantry?but they have cannons which are a valuable anti-treb weapon so IMO they deserve a C-.Infantry A+,you got that right