Advice for a new RPG: The Crystal Shards - Age of Kings Heaven Forums

Haroth
Squire

posted 04-01-09 00:06 AM CT (US) 1 / 128

Since it doesn't seem like anyone's responded yet, I'll toss out what help I can.

1. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's a system out there that'll make 'hunting' gameplay easier on you for designing purposes. Maybe if you have different triggers set up for different areas based on a kill ratio for each area, you could lighten the workload. Campaign Editor is your, friend, though. It lets you extract scenarios from campaign and place them into your Scenario folder, which will in turn let you edit them and check out the triggers yourself. Remember, though, that Wrath of the Dark Lord is a very old campaign. It isn't bad, by any means, but it's relatively out dated.

2. Looping music has always been a touchy subject for me as a player. Custom soundtracks sound pretty and they liven up any cutscene, but when you start meshing them with gameplay, things start to get messy. The moment that the player pauses the game the entire looping effect is immediately going to be off. Add that in to the fact that you don't know on what speed the player is going to be on. Even if you tell them in the instructions to put the game on medium, fast, etc., there's no guarantee that they'll read it or figure out that something is off right away. Plus, the editor is annoying with time effects. On "Normal" speed, I believe the game goes a little faster or slower than real time, which can really end up messing things up when you look at the precise timing required for looping music. Fading makes it easier, but... Depending on how many music files you're going to have and how many areas it's going to change in, you could be in for quite a ride.

Is it possible and plausible? Sure. Is it worth it to increase the player's joy of the game? Probably not. I'd leave the fancy music work for cut scenes. Sound effects add splendid character to a campaign, too. Look at some of Ingo's most recent work. I don't want to completely discourage you from music; it's a nifty idea and I'm sure it could work. But, on the other hand, you might want to get out a pad of handy yellow office paper and make a Pro's and Con's list before you decide on how to do it. The only advice I can really give you is to experiment when it comes to getting everything right. It's really a matter of practice makes perfect when it comes to that sort of thing.

4. Open RPG's are a little iffy. The only real successful one that I know of is Mercenary's Life, and even then I thought that game was a little rough on the edges. Then again, I'm not a big AoK RPG-buff. I think that the idea has probably been brought up but never actually implemented. Just make sure that you're bringing something more to the table then "run around and shoot wolves and deer" or "take these dozen soldiers and fight against the bandits." Quality is better than quantity, and if you can use half of those profession with innovation, you would definitely have an interesting scenario on your hand. Add deep dialogue, interesting conditions, special missions, unique instructions, etc.

5. I know that Swallowed Realm isn't as 'limited' as Wrath is per se, but it's still fairly linear if I recall correctly. I never completely beat it, though.

I'll respond more on the gameplay and map design aspects later. Right now I'm awfully tired and have an early morning. Hopefully someone will add more to what I've said before I post again.

Judiciously show a cat milk, if you wish her to thirst for it.
Judiciously show a dog his natural prey, if you wish him to bring it down one day.

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-01-09 00:57 AM CT (US) 2 / 128

Campaign Editor is your, friend, though.

Thanks! I'll definitely have to check that out, I've never used it before.

The moment that the player pauses the game the entire looping effect is immediately going to be off. Add that in to the fact that you don't know on what speed the player is going to be on. Even if you tell them in the instructions to put the game on medium, fast, etc., there's no guarantee that they'll read it or figure out that something is off right away. Plus, the editor is annoying with time effects. On "Normal" speed, I believe the game goes a little faster or slower than real time, which can really end up messing things up when you look at the precise timing required for looping music.

Yep, I discovered this pretty fast :P It's really good advice, and I've now decided to go with 3 songs that are *somewhat* context sensitive, and non-looping. There's a nice long piece that will play most of the time, and should last long enough before the player enters a building or new area. There's a short, peaceful piece that plays inside buildings, and finally a "danger" song that plays in caves/bandit camps, etc. I'm using Display/Clear Instruction to start and stop these, and so far testing is coming along nicely

I know that Swallowed Realm isn't as 'limited' as Wrath is per se, but it's still fairly linear if I recall correctly. I never completely beat it, though.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I've been playing Revenge of the Templars as well, and it's pretty cool so far too. Certainly lots of good inspiration available.

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-01-2009 @ 03:26 PM).]

Jatayu
Squire
(id: Sword_of_STORM)

posted 04-01-09 01:24 AM CT (US) 3 / 128

1. Look at my scenario 'An Eskimo Tale' I use a system with just a single trigger to cover any number of deer or wolves. It goes something like this:

Suppose you have 26 deer on the map,

Condition: Own fewer objects, Gaia, deer, 26
Effect: Tribute 100 food
Effect: spawn a deer near the edge of the map and task it away.

3. Only MP3 and wav are allowed.

,
Jatayu O===|~~��~~�� / জটাযূ
`
Battle of Saraighat, 1671|Atlantis, the Lost Realm|AOE Roman Modpack|My profile
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StormWind Studios

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-01-09 02:33 AM CT (US) 4 / 128

Condition: Own fewer objects, Gaia, deer, 26
Effect: Tribute 100 food
Effect: spawn a deer near the edge of the map and task it away.

That's perfect!! Elegant, simple, and easy to do. Thanks!

Only MP3 and wav are allowed

Crap. I guess I'll have to live with that. lol

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-01-09 08:54 AM CT (US) 5 / 128

Yep, I discovered this pretty fast :P It's really good advice, and I've now decided to go with 3 songs that are *somewhat* context sensitive, and non-looping. There's a nice long piece that will play most of the time, and should last long enough before the player enters a building or new area. There's a short, peaceful piece that plays inside buildings, and finally a "danger" song that plays in caves/bandit camps, etc. I'm using Display/Clear Instruction to start and stop these, and so far testing is coming along nicely

Please tell me after testing whether the music played well. I mean that if you start a song using display instruction and on a later time you stop it using clear instruction, the next time you will activate the same song again using display instruction it wont start from the beginning. Instead it will play from the moment you stopped it.
This can sometimes be very bothering and stressful.
If you dont get this issue, please tell me how you triggered it. Im very curious then, since no one I know got that done so far.

Btw, interesting rpg. This is a rpg that isnt to heavy, i like the free-roaming aswell.

The only real successful one that I know of is Mercenary's Life,

I believe it was Life of a mercenary. Yes, its an interesting map. If it is something different then well, i should check it out.

Impeached
VIP (Reverie World Studios)
(id: MeGaIdIoT)

posted 04-01-09 09:20 AM CT (US) 6 / 128

I have an idea for the clear instructions technique: In the same trigger, clear the instructions to stop a sound, then play a 2-5 second generic 'sound fading out' sound. A few seconds later, activate the new music. It might work well.

me

Ilmarinen
Squire
(id: Cilibinarii)

posted 04-01-09 10:53 AM CT (US) 7 / 128

I can give you one advice: keep. it. simple. All big RPGS get cancelled at 10% of the triggers. Especially when its your first. (Some people manage to complete scenarios, I envy them

)

Cilibinarii
My AOK Maps

Julius999
Imposter

posted 04-01-09 11:27 AM CT (US) 8 / 128

Cilib is right. You want to get the core gameplay done before fancy little things and non-essential triggers.

I also suggest that you open up the map a bit more. There's a lot of dense forest, which will reduce the 'free roam' aspect. Some fields and other open spaces might be nice.

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-01-09 03:15 PM CT (US) 9 / 128

Please tell me after testing whether the music played well. I mean that if you start a song using display instruction and on a later time you stop it using clear instruction, the next time you will activate the same song again using display instruction it wont start from the beginning. Instead it will play from the moment you stopped it.
This can sometimes be very bothering and stressful.
If you dont get this issue, please tell me how you triggered it. Im very curious then, since no one I know got that done so far.

I haven't run into this issue at all. I've got three triggers, Music Explore, Music Peace, and Music Danger, each of which has one condition: Timer (1), and one effect: Display Instruction (number 2, ten blank spaces, play sound). Then, for any trigger that involves moving to a new area/building, the first effect is Clear Instruction (number 2). Then in the same trigger there's an effect to activate whichever song trigger I want, Peace (for in buildings), Danger (for in hostile areas), or Explore (for the main map). Only issue I've found is that when I minimize the game and then return later, sounds no longer stop on a Clear Instruction.

Cilib is right. You want to get the core gameplay done before fancy little things and non-essential triggers.

I also suggest that you open up the map a bit more. There's a lot of dense forest, which will reduce the 'free roam' aspect. Some fields and other open spaces might be nice.

Very true. Although this is my first major scenario in Age of Empires, I have a lot of experience coding in UnrealScript (an object-oriented programming language), and I've also created some large RPGs in a BASIC-like language, so I understand the need for setting good goals and personal timelines.

And thanks for the advice about the map, you're absolutely correct. I'm going to be working on that today.

I believe it was Life of a mercenary. Yes, its an interesting map. If it is something different then well, i should check it out.

Yep, I've downloaded that one today, and I'll be checking it out when I have time, along with the Eskimo one. I'm also still playing Revenge of the Templars, it's pretty awesome and holding my interest better than a lot of RPGs have.

Btw, interesting rpg. This is a rpg that isnt to heavy, i like the free-roaming aswell.

I've always been a Gothic/Oblivion/Fable fan, so I love the idea of real time combat, free roaming (although Fable has limitations in this department), non-essential quests, and a dynamic world that changes along with your actions. I'm going to try to implement this as much as possible. For example, a quest I'm planning on adding later is a villager asks you to clear a mine full of wolves. If you do this for him, later in the game you can return and find the mine busy with villagers mining, as a result of your actions.

One thing that I loved about Gothic, which I'm also planning to do in The Crystal Shards, is the idea of powerful enemies that defend hidden areas. I remember playing Gothic 3, the coolest moment was wandering through a forest and suddenly coming upon 3 Black Trolls defending a cave. Inside the cave was some treasure, but it was totally unrelated to the storyline. I want to have moments like that in this RPG, where exploring rewards you with new combat and some "HOLY CRAP" moments.

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-01-2009 @ 03:26 PM).]

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-01-09 04:10 PM CT (US) 10 / 128

I haven't run into this issue at all. I've got three triggers, Music Explore, Music Peace, and Music Danger, each of which has one condition: Timer (1), and one effect: Display Instruction (number 2, ten blank spaces, play sound). Then, for any trigger that involves moving to a new area/building, the first effect is Clear Instruction (number 2). Then in the same trigger there's an effect to activate whichever song trigger I want, Peace (for in buildings), Danger (for in hostile areas), or Explore (for the main map). Only issue I've found is that when I minimize the game and then return later, sounds no longer stop on a Clear Instruction.

Quite weird that you didnt had problems with music.
So, when you play peace song it plays like it should.
Now you use clear instructions to stop the song, and choose to play danger. When you come to the main map it return to explore. This far it plays from the beginning. But say after you go back in a hostile area the music of the danger will play, but since you stopped it using the clear instruction it will not start from the beginning of the song, no it will play from the moment you stopped the song.
This should happen, in every try i did (so far) i had problems with it.

Okay, just so i get it:

Music peace Start: off?
timer=1
display instructions number2 sound Explore

Music danger Start: off?
timer=1
display instructions number2 sound Danger

Head inside bar: start: on, require being looped?
object in area: unit: 1
clear instructions number2
activate Music peace

Hostile encampment: start: on
object in area: unit: 1
clear instructions number2
activate Music danger

Is this a good guess on how to use the music?
It does or doesnt start from the beginning after you re-enter a building?

I never had an issue with minimizing the game, but that is no problem. You dont expect any to keep minimizing just to read answers somewhere, I do agree with the people that want to switch their music to the another song, but hey!

Yep, I've downloaded that one today, and I'll be checking it out when I have time, along with the Eskimo one. I'm also still playing Revenge of the Templars, it's pretty awesome and holding my interest better than a lot of RPGs have.

Good, hope you enjoy them. They might contain interesting effects you like. Also since you are pretty well with RPG's already what have you created for BASIC? Yes, its a little weird question to go for. But I have slight understanding about BASIC, and to me making RPG's for BASIC is somewhat different then what you will do now. The name is enough though.

I've always been a Gothic/Oblivion/Fable fan, so I love the idea of real time combat, free roaming (although Fable has limitations in this department), non-essential quests, and a dynamic world that changes along with your actions. I'm going to try to implement this as much as possible. For example, a quest I'm planning on adding later is a villager asks you to clear a mine full of wolves. If you do this for him, later in the game you can return and find the mine busy with villagers mining, as a result of your actions.

Yes, another thing that caught my eye is the fact that you use guilds. Will you keep strict to the available guilds that oblivion has? Also about real time combat can we expect your character fighing with an arsenal of weapons and using abilities to fight off enemies? If so, then you might have quite a hard time to go for. Your background in making those RPG's you mentioned earlier can surely help and making this a less weight to carry.
I also like the twist where events happening in the past have a good or bad effect in the future depending on how well they are performed.

I want to have moments like that in this RPG, where exploring rewards you with new combat and some "HOLY CRAP" moments.

This keeps me thinking of more enemies meet you, or new ways of combating enemies happening. Not sure about this.
Holy crap moment you say? Well, that would be awesome!

Also, since this is an RPG, will this also feature things like a level up system and the common experience you get from quest and enemies? I dont know in how far you pull this together, but there arent things like skill levels per weapons used, or maybe a creature that can help you fighting? I mean like a pet and it is able to raise levels too as you get experience. I dont know. I just have to wait till more things come up. Im too much fed up with a fantasy now. Only thing i can do is wait and see if the dream comes true

Oh, yes, you will find that Life of a mercenary too has the entering building, but it also totally redesign the house you enter. Anyways, you'll find out, no need to spoil that.

Haroth
Squire

posted 04-01-09 04:56 PM CT (US) 11 / 128

Now, about the map...

I think you might need to sit down and do some editing, unless of course you want for your scenario to take place entirely in a forest. While you definitely did a good job avoid "blocks" of trees and straight roads, I'm seeing a lot of the same thing on your map. The only time that you really seem to deviate from the "broken road surrounded by trees" formula is when you start nearing populated towns. Using trees as a barrier is a big, big nono. Even if your scenario takes place entirely in a forest, you still should try to avoid limiting your terrain to just trees. I don't see any mountains in your map - they make excellent, natural barriers. I also see absolutely no water other than where the big ocean seems to be.

If you're planning on making an open RPG, you want things to feel... open! Replace a lot of the trees with other barriers and make multiple paths that branch off, but eventually lead to the same place. And you don't have to just make two roads, either. Make three, or four, or twelve! Hell, completely throw away the trees and make some wide-open spaces with some ponds and shrubbery filling in a few of the gaps. You don't want the player to feel as if he or she is enclosed into a tight space, and that seems to be what your scenario is doing.

Also, I don't see a lot of terrain mixing. In fact, I just see a lot of leaves. Again, that makes the player feel like they're confined within a dense forest. If that's the effect you're going for, that's fine. Using just leaf terrain gives that effect and it can feel very nice when you're trying to convey that feel. Macbeth did this at the beginning of one of the scenarios, and I liked it. But your entire map appears to be a dense forest and when you're entire map is filled with leaves, it feels sort of bland. I'm not an expert at the correct "technique" of mixing terrain, but if you take a look at screenshots from the talented designers here, I'm sure you'll start to get the general idea.

Someone posted about map design in a previous topic that a couple of peopole, including I, responded to. You might want to take a look at that Here.

Judiciously show a cat milk, if you wish her to thirst for it.
Judiciously show a dog his natural prey, if you wish him to bring it down one day.

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-01-09 07:12 PM CT (US) 12 / 128

But say after you go back in a hostile area the music of the danger will play, but since you stopped it using the clear instruction it will not start from the beginning of the song, no it will play from the moment you stopped the song.

No, every time I change areas, the song starts from the beginning. Example: I leave the map for a cave, and "danger" music starts from the beginning. I go back to the map, and "explore" music starts from the beginning. I can even return to the cave, and the "danger" theme will still start again at the beginning.

Here's my triggers I use for entering a citadel/returning to the map:

Music Explore  --  start ON, looping OFF //Starts at the beginning of the scenario.
Condition: Timer (1 second)
Effect: Display Instruction (Number 2, ten blank spaces, file TCS_explore.mp3)

Music Peace  --  start OFF, looping OFF
Condition: Timer (1 second)
Effect: Display Instruction (Number 2, ten blank spaces, file TCS_peace.mp3)

Music Danger  --  start OFF, looping OFF
Condition: Timer (1 second)
Effect: Display Instruction (Number 2, ten blank spaces, file TCS_danger.mp3)

Enter Grand Citadel -- start ON, looping OFF
Condition: Object in area
Effect: Clear Instruction (Number 2)
Effect: //do all the change ownership/view stuff here.
Effect: Activate Trigger (Music Danger)
Effect: Activate Trigger (Leave Grand Citadel)

Leave Grand Citadel -- start OFF, looping OFF
Condition: Object in area
Effect: Clear Instruction (Number 2)
Effect: //do all the change ownership/view stuff here.
Effect: Activate Trigger (Music Explore)
Effect: Activate Trigger (Timer Grand Citadel)

Timer Grand Citadel -- start OFF, looping OFF
Condition: Timer (10 seconds)
Effect: //this gives you ten seconds to get off the doorway before the door becomes active again.
Effect: Activate Trigger (Enter Grand Citadel)

what have you created for BASIC?

It's actually a BASIC-like language called TIBASIC, designed for high-level engineering calculators. Originally intended for doing basic math problems, I've created some RPGs with ASCII graphics. Again, these were free-roam, multi-quest stories. This was years ago though, before basketball got me sidetracked from my obsession with math and stuff.

Will you keep strict to the available guilds that oblivion has?

At the moment, the guilds/careers/skills' exact details are flexible until I get things like the map and story completely fleshed out. I'm probably not going to strictly stay with Oblivion guilds; mostly my guilds will give you:
1) A way to gain money (piracy, hunting, etc)
2) New side-quests (sink the flagship, capture the bandit, etc)
As I get deeper into creating the triggers involved, I'll be more decided on how much of a role guilds are going to play.

Also, since this is an RPG, will this also feature things like a level up system and the common experience you get from quest and enemies?

Again, I'm not completely decided on the mechanics, but I'm going to try for an experience/level up system. It won't play a HUGE role, I don't think.

or maybe a creature that can help you fighting? I mean like a pet and it is able to raise levels too as you get experience

I've never been a fan of "party" RPGs, if you know what I mean. I'm referring to games where you control more than one character in a party. I've always liked the Gothic 3 feeling of being a lone stranger. Although I do like what the Revenge of the Templar campaign does, where you get limited uses of other units, I think I'm going to stick with just one character you control.

I think you might need to sit down and do some editing, unless of course you want for your scenario to take place entirely in a forest.

Also, I don't see a lot of terrain mixing. In fact, I just see a lot of leaves. Again, that makes the player feel like they're confined within a dense forest. If that's the effect you're going for, that's fine.

That is the effect I'm going for, but you are right. Although I'm definitely trying for a deep, dark forest feel, I do need to do more changes to the terrain. Since posting that last shot of the map, I've done some more terrain mixing, but I'm also going to work more on opening up some sections, creating new paths (just dirt paths, I think the kingdom has enough roads for my purposes), and just generally more interesting places.

I don't see any mountains in your map - they make excellent, natural barriers.

Good call, I'll try to throw some in. Especially in the north, where things get rocky and mysterious, and you can expect some good monsters

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-01-2009 @ 09:16 PM).]

paperclip007
Eidolon

posted 04-01-09 10:44 PM CT (US) 13 / 128

Hello, I just wanted to say that I'm really interested in the project your working on. I've always liked RPGs (Revenge of the Templars is one of my favorites scenarios), and I hope that you succeed. Oblivion is a personal favorite of mine, and if you can make a scenario that's similar to it, I'll definitely download it.

Well, anyway, good luck.

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-01-09 11:36 PM CT (US) 14 / 128

Thanks Paperclip!

OK here's an updated map. I've been doing some work on terrain mixing, adding mountains, and opening it up. I think it's coming quite nicely.

Updated Map

And I've been fleshing out the story. Tell me how this sounds:

~++ The Crystal Shards ++~

Your father calls to you from his deathbed. "My son, I must impart to you something I should have said long ago. It is past time that you inherit my shame."

"Father, do not speak. The sickness --"

"No, Wilhelm, I will not be silenced. I am ashamed of my life. It is time that you repair the family's honor."

"What do you ask of me, father?"

"My son, your grandfather was once the Keeper of the Crystal Shards, a duty he took seriously."

"The Shards? Father, you speak nonsense. The Shards are a fable for children."

Your father coughs, the illness slowly bringing him closer to death. "The Shards are real, my son. Your grandfather, upon his death, conferred the title of Keeper to me. It was not a duty that I wished. The five known pieces of the Night Crystal are hidden around the kingdom, kept safe by ancient guardians. But now time is drawing short."

Your father attempts to sit up, and in weakness falls back into the bed. "In my negligence, I allowed the map of the Shards' locations to be stolen. Not by any common thief, but by the Grand Wizard of Charbydris himself. He cannot be allowed to gain control of the Crystal Shards, or his power will be too great for the armies of the kingdom to contain."

You attempt to console your father. "You said the Shards are protected by guardians. Surely the Grand Wizard cannot defeat them?"

A weak smile, a mirthless smile, comes to your father's face. "He has already found one, my son. The others will fall into his grasp when he comes across the sea and devises methods to defeat the other guardians."

"Father, what must I do?"

"What I could not, my son. Restore my honor, that my soul might find peace. Collect the five Crystal Shards, and use their combined power to defeat the Grand Wizard. Only thus may the kingdom be saved ..."

**EDIT**

OK, new problem. I've been testing out a kill ratio attribute, but it seems as if kills that I make inside buildings (IE, kills made by player 2 Hero that I changed Ownership to me to enter the building) don't get added to kill ratio. Is this true? Is there a workaround?

**EDIT 2**

After some testing, I've found that the problem lies in changing the ownership of my main-map hero to player two when entering buildings. This counts as a death, and messes up the kill ratio. Does anyone have an idea how I can overcome this? The best I can think of is have a new trigger system that detects when the kill ratio is low, and spawns a unit for both you and someone else, and tasks your unit to kill the other. But that's extremely clumsy and annoying to do.

**EDIT 3**

I've done some searching here at the forums, and Berserker Jerker posted that the only real way around this is to do a Own Fewer Objects trigger -- the same as what Jatayu had posted for a hunting system. This should work, it will just take a bit more fiddling with the stupid triggers to make happen.

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-02-2009 @ 02:13 AM).]

Julius999
Imposter

posted 04-02-09 02:59 AM CT (US) 15 / 128

I've done some searching here at the forums, and Berserker Jerker posted that the only real way around this is to do a Own Fewer Objects trigger -- the same as what Jatayu had posted for a hunting system. This should work, it will just take a bit more fiddling with the stupid triggers to make happen.

There's a much better way. Use a looping trigger that detects when you have a kill, and then use AoKTS to tribute away one kill.

And the map is definitely improving.

1010011010
[ All_That_Glitters | Pretty_Town_Contest | Other_AoK_Designs | AoE_Designs ]
Member of Stormwind Studios

Berserker Jerker
Squire

posted 04-02-09 03:15 AM CT (US) 16 / 128

The project sounds really interesting, but rather ambitious. Hope you can pull it off.

With regard to Kill ratio�s Julius is right, there are now much better ways to accomplish this. Have a look at this by T_C it�s perfect for what you are looking for.

^BerserkerJerker Warning!_If_you_click_this,_you_may_suffer_mental_deprivation!

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-02-09 03:59 AM CT (US) 17 / 128

Have a look at this by T_C it�s perfect for what you are looking for.

Does this accurate kill counter also register what player you killed a unit of? The way I've got it set up now, using your old system/the eskimo hunt system, is if I kill a deer, a new deer gets spawned, but if I kill a bandit, a new bandit is spawned (and tasked to a random area as well). Doing this lets the triggers keep track of which enemy/Gaia unit needs replenishing. This seems to work just fine for now.

Plus, maybe it's just foolishness, but I'm kind of stubborn and would rather create this thing "vanilla" without copying/pasting hex-edited triggers. Dumb, I know

The project sounds really interesting, but rather ambitious. Hope you can pull it off.

Lol, thanks, me too!

**EDIT**

Different topic: It annoys me when I'm playing a campaign, and the creator used Display Instruction for speech, and when the next paragraph came in position 0, parts of the old paragraph were still there in position 1. Anyone else hate this? I've definitely decided, as of tonight, to use Send Chat for all talking, unless someone knows a disadvantage of that method?

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-02-2009 @ 04:12 AM).]

Impeached
VIP (Reverie World Studios)
(id: MeGaIdIoT)

posted 04-02-09 09:30 AM CT (US) 18 / 128

With regard to Kill ratio�s Julius is right, there are now much better ways to accomplish this. Have a look at this by T_C it�s perfect for what you are looking for.

Actually, BJ, what Julius was talking about is the same thing. You can use AoKTS to tribute away one kill just like that template does.

@Twi:
You won't be able to use display instructions for anything besides music. One line of display instruction playing a sound locks them all up. So I'd say you're stuck with chats (which aren't that bad, anyway

).

me

[This message has been edited by Impeached (edited 04-02-2009 @ 09:31 AM).]

Ilmarinen
Squire
(id: Cilibinarii)

posted 04-02-09 09:37 AM CT (US) 19 / 128

Could you start providing screenies pleasz? (I always ask this. You dont have to listen ._.)

Cilibinarii
My AOK Maps

Teotl
Squire

posted 04-02-09 01:42 PM CT (US) 20 / 128

Yes Yes
I've been reading and it looks good, but I need screenies to satisfy the hungry monster that lives deep inside my soul, you know?

Scenarios:
Divine War (rated 4.4)
Phoenix trailer (rated 3.8)
Proud Member of Black Forest Studios

It`s hard to light a candle, easy to curse the dark instead

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-02-09 01:51 PM CT (US) 21 / 128

@ Sir twi

I tried your music triggers, but the game crashes as soon as I move in the Enter Building trigger. Any idea's what i might have done wrong?
Btw, in the display instructions, i put the timer to 10, and the number to 2. Does the timer to 10 have any effect?
I'm really curious how it appeared that the game just crashes. I have no idea what i did wrong.
I used a standard song though, is that the bad?
e2d (Town) e3d (Inside building)
I was just trying this out, and it crashed. I really hope you know any idea on how to fix this, if not someone else.

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-02-09 02:47 PM CT (US) 22 / 128

Yes Yes
I've been reading and it looks good, but I need screenies to satisfy the hungry monster that lives deep inside my soul, you know?

Could you start providing screenies pleasz? (I always ask this. You dont have to listen ._.)

Ill try and get some screenies up when I get back from class today. No promises though

I tried your music triggers, but the game crashes as soon as I move in the Enter Building trigger. Any idea's what i might have done wrong?
Btw, in the display instructions, i put the timer to 10, and the number to 2. Does the timer to 10 have any effect?
I'm really curious how it appeared that the game just crashes. I have no idea what i did wrong.
I used a standard song though, is that the bad?
e2d (Town) e3d (Inside building)
I was just trying this out, and it crashed. I really hope you know any idea on how to fix this, if not someone else.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what's wrong here. I have found that the game crashes on a change view effect if it's too close to the edge of the map, but I'm sure you know that already and are avoiding that, so I'm honestly not sure what it could be. The triggers I posted work just fine for me. As for the timer, I set it to 1. I'm honestly not sure if the timer makes a difference, but it's like legacy code: I started the triggers using it, and they work, so I'm afraid to remove it

**EDIT**
I just remembered another thing that caused the game to crash on an "enter building" trigger, but you probably know this one too. The trigger effects can sometimes be buggy, especially I found on the "change ownership" trigger. Often I have to click the unit I want to change several times to make the trigger work. If I'm not careful, the trigger will be green like it *SHOULD* work, but then when I enter the building it crashes. So make sure that your triggers are all pointing at the right heroes.

In other news: One thing that annoys me about other campaigns is the whole "Do you want to do this? Click on the building for yes, on the man for no." Or else "Step on this flag to enter my shop." What I'm going to do is make an interactive prologue scenario, where I can get all of these annoying things out of the way. Basically the prologue introduces the story, and is a mini-tutorial on how gameplay for The Crystal Shards works. That way, when the main RPG scenario starts, I won't need to tell players to click on people to talk or to step on flags. Good idea eh?

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-02-2009 @ 02:50 PM).]

Powery
Squire

posted 04-02-09 02:47 PM CT (US) 23 / 128

It is important that RPG scenario has a storyline with alot of turning points or otherwise it will turn to be tedious from the player's view.

Haroth
Squire

posted 04-02-09 05:42 PM CT (US) 24 / 128

Another short comment about your map design: Your map is definitely starting to look up, especially when it comes to mixing up the terrain. I really liked your shores; most new designers have relatively straight shores, but you certainly did a good job at making them seem more realistic. You may want to mess around with the water terrain, though, to make it more realistic. On the map shot, it looks nice, but if the player is sitting on just the shore, things or going to look a bit bland because they'll only be able to see the shallow water. Mix together various amounts of water depth to give the entire sea/ocean a nice, realistic look. Giving the illusion of "waves" is a good idea, too.

For getting your gameplay ideas across, you could always just include them in the instructions/hints tab. It'll be a lot less time consuming for the player. Just an idea, though.

Judiciously show a cat milk, if you wish her to thirst for it.
Judiciously show a dog his natural prey, if you wish him to bring it down one day.

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-02-09 06:20 PM CT (US) 25 / 128

For getting your gameplay ideas across, you could always just include them in the instructions/hints tab. It'll be a lot less time consuming for the player.

And a lot less time consuming for me too lol. I will probably end up doing this (as well as putting it in the readme for overkill), because I've been working on a prologue scenario as well and it's coming sloooooooooowwwly! I've gotta concentrate on just one thing at a time, I know.

On the subject of gameplay mechanics, I definitely want to do a yes/no chat taunt system. Currently I've been using Immobile Units AI. It shouldn't be too hard to modify that to add 2 taunt commands, should it? I've never actually done any AI writing before. Do I need permission from the Immobile Units creator to modify it? Alternatively, if the AI thing doesn't work out, I could definitely do a little militia at the top of the screen who you move left to say yes, and right to say no. I've done that system before, but it's not as elegant or user-friendly.

**EDIT** SCREENIES!!!

Please keep in mind that this world is SEVERELY depopulated. Other than the main hero, there is just about nobody in the game yet, other than a couple guards I put in for testing my speech trigger.

Me talking to a grouchy guard:
guard in town

The Grand Citadel (ahh the joys of map-copy

):
Grand Citadel

The King's Crown Inn (one of three inns so far):
King's Crown Inn

A mysterious crypt (cue creepy music and undead warriors here):
Ancient Crypt

**EDIT 2** MORE SCREENIES! YAY

The epic Teddy Bear Adventure

In honor of the game Fable, which along with Gothic 3 was the biggest inspiration for The Crystal Shards, my first working quest is to find a teddy bear for a villager. This quest was made just for testing out a possible trigger system, and it's working nicely.

Talking to the woman:
Quest Picture 1

Look what I found!:
Quest Picture 2

Tasks/Inventory:
Quest Picture 3

Yay! I saved the day!:
Quest Picture 4

**EDIT 3**
Here's a final one before I go to bed. In the main storyline, there comes a point where you have to cross the sea. You can either do this by joining the pirates after performing a quest for them, or joining a harbor master after killing the pirates for him. In this screenshot, as you can see, I've joined the pirates. In keeping with my "control only one unit at a time" theme, the pirate ship is treated the same as buildings: if you're in it, you don't have a person wandering around the map at the same time (done of course with Change Ownership).

Pirate ship, career

I've also done a crash-course in AI editing, and created my own AI to respond to a YES or NO taunt, and it works well.

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-03-2009 @ 02:28 AM).]

Berserker Jerker
Squire

posted 04-03-09 03:53 AM CT (US) 26 / 128

Actually, BJ, what Julius was talking about is the same thing. You can use AoKTS to tribute away one kill just like that template does

Yes I realize that, I was trying to give Sir Twi a working example.

Doing this lets the triggers keep track of which enemy/Gaia unit needs replenishing. This seems to work just fine for now.

If it isn�t broke don�t fix it.

Plus, maybe it's just foolishness, but I'm kind of stubborn and would rather create this thing "vanilla" without copying/pasting hex-edited triggers. Dumb, I know

Not at all, I prefer the challenge of doing things without including data files etc. But I do advocate the use of AoKTS, which removes all the editor restrictions, and allows some neat tricks like newIdea�s cloaking. The end scenario is still vanilla-ish.

I've also done a crash-course in AI editing, and created my own AI to respond to a YES or NO taunt, and it works well

Make sure you acknowledge taunts in the script before and after they are activated, and don�t rely on taunts alone, otherwise you might find some people complaining they don�t work. (chat menu defaults to talking to no-one) So it's best to add a fail safe option too, IE select this or that.

Nice screenies.

^BerserkerJerker Warning!_If_you_click_this,_you_may_suffer_mental_deprivation!

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-03-09 08:03 AM CT (US) 27 / 128

Hmmm, I'm not sure what's wrong here. I have found that the game crashes on a change view effect if it's too close to the edge of the map, but I'm sure you know that already and are avoiding that, so I'm honestly not sure what it could be. The triggers I posted work just fine for me. As for the timer, I set it to 1. I'm honestly not sure if the timer makes a difference, but it's like legacy code: I started the triggers using it, and they work, so I'm afraid to remove it

I tried to remove both the change view and change ownership, so the game only concentrates on changing the music. I dont know if that would fix it. Well, you talk about timer right? I was actually talking about the timer of the display instruction. Would it be a problem when setting that to 10? Also would the use of the original sounds be making things a problem?

I just remembered another thing that caused the game to crash on an "enter building" trigger, but you probably know this one too. The trigger effects can sometimes be buggy, especially I found on the "change ownership" trigger. Often I have to click the unit I want to change several times to make the trigger work. If I'm not careful, the trigger will be green like it *SHOULD* work, but then when I enter the building it crashes. So make sure that your triggers are all pointing at the right heroes.

Yea, well, I made it really simple for me and deleted the change ownership effect and change view effect. This only leaves the object in area condition there, and the clear instruction, plus the two effects to activate triggers, one being the music and the other being the timer. Just as soon as i approach the area to enter the building it crashed. Just the moment it checks the area and clears the instructions and start the music it crashes.

Could you send me a scenario perhaps with these couple of
triggers? I believe it does work for you. Perhaps I didnt fully understood it. Since it works for you. If possible send to:
thomas14_koster@hotmail.com
It's quite a worry to see a wonderful effect not working.

Also, your sceenies look promising. Its just that the caves or crypt a player enter isnt looking that big to walk a bit around.
Is this how you intend it to be?

Looking forward to see more

Berserker Jerker
Squire

posted 04-03-09 08:09 AM CT (US) 28 / 128

The crashing sounds like the media player problem. Try playing without the sound files. If that effects a cure then try opening the sound files with another program like Goldwave and save them, this should fix it.

^BerserkerJerker Warning!_If_you_click_this,_you_may_suffer_mental_deprivation!

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-03-09 10:45 AM CT (US) 29 / 128

The crashing sounds like the media player problem. Try playing without the sound files. If that effects a cure then try opening the sound files with another program like Goldwave and save them, this should fix it.

That is really odd then. Since the first file that i did opened with media player E2D plays normally, but when i used the triggers of Twi to enter a building and thereby clearing the instructions then activating the trigger to play the other song, then it crashes. Strange since i opened both the Overworld (this one plays at the start) and the Inside Building (this is activated when standing infront of the building) with media player before adding them to the triggers. Oh well, I just saved them with Goldwave, lets see what happens now ...

[This message has been edited by WizarDBoy (edited 04-03-2009 @ 10:53 AM).]

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-03-09 11:13 AM CT (US) 30 / 128

Could you send me a scenario perhaps with these couple of triggers? I believe it does work for you. Perhaps I didnt fully understood it. Since it works for you. If possible send to: thomas14_koster@hotmail.com

I'll TRY to get something made for you and sent today, but today's looking very busy with the girlfriend, so I can't promise anything. If I can't get it done today, then I'll send it on Monday when I return from a brief visit to my parents.

But I do advocate the use of AoKTS, which removes all the editor restrictions, and allows some neat tricks like newIdea�s cloaking. The end scenario is still vanilla-ish.

I've broken down and downloaded AoKTS, if only so I don't have to worry about accidentally clicking on a negative tribute trigger and having it reset. I assume TS doesn't have this particular problem

Make sure you acknowledge taunts in the script before and after they are activated

You mean this right?

(defrule
(taunt-detected 1 1)
=>
(acknowledge-taunt 1 1) ;<<===== THIS ONE
(cc-add-resource wood 40)
)

What do you mean before and after? Do I need to add "acknowledge taunt" to another place as well?

Nice screenies.

Thanks! I'm really getting excited about this project, and I really appreciate all the help and encouragement here.

**EDIT**

Changed the //comment in the code to ;comment. Lol I'm too used to OOP, I can't do that anymore!

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-03-2009 @ 11:19 AM).]

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-03-09 12:25 PM CT (US) 31 / 128

I'll TRY to get something made for you and sent today, but today's looking very busy with the girlfriend, so I can't promise anything. If I can't get it done today, then I'll send it on Monday when I return from a brief visit to my parents

Its okay mate, Berserker was right. I opened the music file with media player and that ruined the music file. I got it fixed now. And your music triggers works very nice.
So no need, thanks anyways

I've broken down and downloaded AoKTS, if only so I don't have to worry about accidentally clicking on a negative tribute trigger and having it reset. I assume TS doesn't have this particular problem

That is right, downside is when you do have a look in the editor to the triggers and their condition and effects. You might want to include a "-" in the name like Town -1, to let you know that you used a -1 in one of the effects.
So that way you can easily look at effects, but heh, if you did a large amount its wise not to look at them.

What do you mean before and after? Do I need to add "acknowledge taunt" to another place as well?
You mean this right?
(defrule(taunt-detected 1 1)
=>
(acknowledge-taunt 1 1) ;<<===== THIS ONE
(cc-add-resource wood 40)
)

Yes, but also in the triggers.

For example:

Trigger:
condition: accumalate 40 wood player2
tribute: player2 40 wood to gaia << this part aswell, so you can reuse the taunt again, seeing that the resource is tributed away, clearing the spot.

Thanks! I'm really getting excited about this project, and I really appreciate all the help and encouragement here.

Im wondering whether your entering building also features caves that way. Mostly because of the crypt. I expect to see a cave like thing with as said death warriors wandering around. Hm, looking forward to see how that packs out.

[This message has been edited by WizarDBoy (edited 04-03-2009 @ 01:31 PM).]

Sir Twi
Squire

posted 04-03-09 03:15 PM CT (US) 32 / 128

Its okay mate, Berserker was right. I opened the music file with media player and that ruined the music file. I got it fixed now. And your music triggers works very nice.

Awesome! I'm glad it worked for you.

tribute: player2 40 wood to gaia this part aswell, so you can reuse the taunt again, seeing that the resource is tributed away, clearing the spot.

OK I understand what you mean. Yep, I've already done that.

Im wondering whether your entering building also features caves that way. Mostly because of the crypt. I expect to see a cave like thing with as said death warriors wandering around. Hm, looking forward to see how that packs out.

Yes, at the moment there is one enter-able cave that uses the same system as the buildings (step on flag, change ownership, change view, change music). I'm definitely planning to make more. If you look on my map-shot of the whole world, in the right-hand corner you can see the cave area surrounded by mountains.

Since making the pirate ship quest, and sailing around a little, I've realized how HUGE the empty space of the sea is in my map. I'm going to move the island city and town over to the left so the sea doesn't take up too much space, and then use the new empty land I have available to make more enter-able caves and buildings.

I'm visiting my parents over the weekend, and there's no internet there. So expect to see a large amount of progress done when I return Monday

[This message has been edited by Sir Twi (edited 04-03-2009 @ 04:43 PM).]

Hell Sinky
Squire
(id: Commander Scipio)

posted 04-04-09 00:34 AM CT (US) 33 / 128

Impressive screenshots.

Best of luck.

"Scipio is more charismatic than you are." -Rocking Doom
"Scipio ... narcissistic ... overly arrogant cuckold ... noble souls and gentlemen, ... spare a second ... basic and ennui existence ... feeble pleasure ... his life more bearable ... monotony of stoic reality." *-Scud
"SCIPIO YOU SUN BITCH" -TOAO_Roland

Haroth
Squire

posted 04-04-09 00:53 AM CT (US) 34 / 128

Screenshots are looking much better, Twi. Also, about that open space in the ocean, you could always put a few islands here and there for different pirate quests. Just a random suggestion.

Judiciously show a cat milk, if you wish her to thirst for it.
Judiciously show a dog his natural prey, if you wish him to bring it down one day.

WizardBoy
Squire

posted 04-05-09 08:44 AM CT (US) 35 / 128

Awesome! I'm glad it worked for you.

Yep, I didnt want to make you believe that it still didnt worked and you gave me the scenario so i could see how its done, then thinking hm, so it does work, then what I did wrong? Well, that way i couldnt really solve it. But eventually berserkers thing helped.

OK I understand what you mean. Yep, I've already done that

You know that you can also think of changing the inventory, so that it appears in a menu which you call by a taunt?
This way you clean up the objectives and you can use them for quests and guild related things.

Much can be found when looking at Wrath of the lord campaign. It includes taunt based battle.

Yes, at the moment there is one enter-able cave that uses the same system as the buildings (step on flag, change ownership, change view, change music). I'm definitely planning to make more. If you look on my map-shot of the whole world, in the right-hand corner you can see the cave area surrounded by mountains.

Well, its not only that you need to make more. You can also think of making a bit bigger caves. And add quests inside. Maybe one where you find someone in the cave, and that you need to escort that person the exit or even to a city. As reward you get something.

Since making the pirate ship quest, and sailing around a little, I've realized how HUGE the empty space of the sea is in my map. I'm going to move the island city and town over to the left so the sea doesn't take up too much space, and then use the new empty land I have available to make more enter-able caves and buildings.

Yes currently the sea does takes quite some space, but dont forget that the mainland to the left it pretty much streets aswell. I mean its a forest with paths connected to cities.

At some points you see great parts of forest which could be used for a hut for say a specific item that can be traded, or a small shelter which is guarded by some monsters.
I mean with the tight forest it pretty much copies itself a bit. Probably that is what you intend it to be.

As for the ship, only when your a pirate you handle a ship right? I mean when you took/join the ranger for example, you only fix on skin from wolves as of now? As well as battling monsters to earn money and perhaps new equipment?
I know these are still a bit vague points to talk about. But those can be put on some sort of idea list for later.