See the thread above for updates on civilisations etc.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-16-2015 @ 08:57 AM).]

Sorry for double post. Deleted.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-16-2015 @ 08:56 AM).]

Its a interesting looking project good luck with it.

Those civs look amazing, Mash. And the Celtica buildings are a good fit, but I wonder if the Feudal Age Viking set might fit the Anglo-Saxons better? Or would that be better for the Danes?

I was wondering if the Celtica buildings might be a good fit for the Welsh as well?

For the danes he might be able to use the set in dynasties mod made with wonder parts.

very very god project. i will play

Thanks guys.

@Seonid,

I'll edit the two civilisations further over time, and do more work on them tonight. I guess we can keep referring to them in those two posts. Welsh civilisation profile to come later. With the Welsh they only feature in one scenario so we might get away with doing minimal work on them, enough for them to function as your opponent at least.

I was wondering if the Celtica buildings might be a good fit for the Welsh as well?

I too was thinking the Welsh and Anglo-Saxons could share the Celtica building set, I think it suits both nicely. Also, the way the houses slope is exactly the way the Saxons built their homes. There's a few pictures of them on google.My only quirk is the celtic shields and spears leaning against the walls, but oh well.

but I wonder if the Feudal Age Viking set might fit the Anglo-Saxons better? Or would that be better for the Danes?

I do quite like the Viking set you linked me to, however I think the Danes should stick to using it. That way it feels like the foreign invading culture as you encounter their buildings in the game. I did have in mind for the Danes to have a separate building set so this seems to suit it well. Thanks for that.

I'm off to the gym (God knows I need to work out after sitting at the cpu for hours on end), but afterwards I'll link the units from the BS I was thinking of using for the civs.

Also, feel free to add ideas to the civs if you have any. They're a work in progress.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-16-2015 @ 02:39 AM).]

This looks very interesting! If you need some advice, don't hesitate to ask.

I also think that it could be good to overwrite/change existing units and civs, as that'll ease your work quite a bit and as there don't seem to be vanilla units left, this should not be a problem at all.

This looks great, Mash! And welcome back

I agree you can directly replace the celts,goths and vikings who knows maybe in a later day can be fully converted to a different mod.

you should check out the 5th century mod and the hunnic mod they have units that you can use.

[This message has been edited by Mahazona (edited 01-16-2015 @ 09:32 AM).]

Good to see this moving again!

I have some modified Celtica .slps that fix a few player color issues if you want them: the TCs and markets no longer have always blue sections and I've added player color to the watch tower and keep.

Double posting is no problem at all if you're adding something that you want people to see.

The Hearth troop was uploaded by Kor himself.

Looking awesome, Mash!

Hey Mash!
This is just nice!
Nice ideas you have got and nice civs! ^^

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Quoted from Khan Ivayl:

This looks great, Mash! And welcome back

Thanks buddy, it's good to be back.

Quoted from Mahazona:

I agree you can directly replace the celts,goths and vikings who knows maybe in a later day can be fully converted to a different mod.

I agree, and funnily enough they're the civilisations I'm currently using in the vanilla editor whilst designing the campaign.

Speaking of which, I might get some screenshots out soon.

...you should check out the 5th century mod and the hunnic mod they have units that you can use.

Thanks, I'd not heard of them. Could you please link me to the hunnic mod? I can't seem to find it. I did however find the 5th Century mod quite easily.

Quoted from Vardamir:

Good to see this moving again!

I have some modified Celtica .slps that fix a few player color issues if you want them: the TCs and markets no longer have always blue sections and I've added player color to the watch tower and keep.

Ah nice, yes please. Well in saying that how did you want to work this collaboration out? As I said I'm pretty useless for that stuff, but I'm willing to learn. I really need someone to talk me through data editng in order to process the information, which is just how my brain operates. I was thinking to start the mod we could fix the Celts and Goths with the Celtica mod and your colour fixes, and go from there.

Quoted from John the Late:

The Hearth troop was uploaded by Kor himself.

Ah indeed, the unit pack. Fixed.

On another note, there are a few ideas I was working on which I'd like some feedback on if that's okay.

1. Should the Welsh instead feature as the Cymry? It's a much more ancient name and might fit in with the era a little better. It is described online as the name for the Brythonic celts of Wales, Cornwall and Brittany. I wonder if that makes me Brythonic in some way as my surname Penrose is Cornish!

2. one of the new buildings I would like to feature is the Ealdorman's Hall for the Saxons, the Jarl's Long House for the Danes and I'm not sure what for the Welsh. My idea is that it could replace each civilisation's castle or it could replace the university. You see the way I want the game to play is to have this unique building as the place where you can research all the unique tech belonging to that civ in matters of military, and also recruit their elite units (i.e. huscarl for the Saxons).

3. Instead of featuring a Tavern (such as what I wrote in the civ overviews), how about those lowly units such as the Danish Gestir (one of the Jarl's thugs) and Saxon Buscarles (early sailor, sometimes garrison troop) feature in the civilisations castle-like building in the 9th Century instead, and in the 10th Century we then get the ability to research the elite units such as the Huscarl or shield maiden? As it stands the tavern is useless and might fix things up a bit.

4. What did the pagan Danes call their churches for their gods? I'm literally giving them a nice pagan presence in this game, while the Saxons are Christian. Both have unique abilities as a result. One idea was to have the Danish berserker recruited from the Danish Shrine. They were warriors of Odin and it would add a nice flavour to the game I think. Also, what should they look like? They usually went shirtless into battle, and sporting a wolf or bears pelt. Would an edited Woad Raider unit suffice?

I've also added a couple Welsh units, however I'm not overly familiar with the Welsh so if anyone has any ideas as to how they should look please let me know! I'll get their civilisation overview onto the thread soon, but it will be rough and needs lots of work!

I was also thinking of a welsh raider unit in the form of the woad raider. What should I call him? Celtic Raider? I suppose even woad raider still technically works in the context here.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-16-2015 @ 09:03 PM).]

Here you go
http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/showfile.php?fileid=11347&ci=98c16885280818428ea5c9d65b4236abYToxOntpOjA7YToyOntpOjA7czoxNDoiU2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHMiO2k6MTtzOjM1OiJsaXN0ZXIucGhwP3N0YXJ0PTYwJmFtcDtzZWFyY2g9aHVucyI7fX0=

woad raider will be more suiting to the welsh maybe a recolored jaguar warrior armed with a sword might be more better for a bearskin wearing warrior.the game of thorns mod might also have some useful units and I remember seeing viking uu with a different shield yellow hair and armed with a sword some where.

I'll get the rest of the SLPs for a shield maiden unit Ibe started done if you'd like to use it. It's got black hair but if you could get it converted to blonde you'd have a pretty nice unit for it.

I have a list of units around here somewhere that I thought would fit well in this mod. I wrote it up when you first posted the mod, and then forgot about it when it fell by the wayside.

I'll see if I can find it tomorrow morning and post it.

please people do not mock the welsh, they preserved alot of roman traditions from hich also the saxons learned, so the bearskin is really a little to primitive...

Looks interesting Mashek! Just a few notes on the Welsh:

Firstly, the term Teulu is incorrect for a singular unit. This is a mistake I made myself in an earlier version of Age of Chivalry. The term stands for the bodyguard of a prince, but only in its collective form - it denotes the group, not the individual. Each member of the Teulu would be called an Uchelwr.

I am not sure if the Teulu was used in the 10th century in the same way it was in the 12th/13th century. In fact I'm pretty sure it was an innovation in imitation of the Norman knights the Welsh faced from 1066 on. However, unfortunately relatively little is known about earlier Welsh military customs - the first proper descriptions come from the late 12th century, before that they tend to be more anecdotal. Cavalry would not be the priority of Welsh armies, however - there's enough winding mountain tracks that would be impossible to traverse. Spearmen, swordsmen, archers and javelineers would be more useful, and if later developments are anything to go by they preferred hit-and-run tactics. This also seems to make sense for this earlier period as the Welsh were generally on the defensive.

Woad Raiders, as you know, are a fantasy unit based on not entirely trustworthy classical descriptions of Picts and/or Celts that are not repeated in the middle ages. And as I mentioned on the whole the Welsh were not as aggressive in this period - they were more often the victim of aggression than the offender (in this period from both Viking incursions and 'English' attacks, although there was also quite a bit of internal strife between the various Welsh kingdoms). This makes raiders per se a little less useful as a unit.

As to the name Welsh, it's true that the term Cymry is ancient - but so is the term Welsh, which is an old-Germanic term used to refer to 'other' people, used not just for the Welsh (the regions Wallonia, Wallachia, Wallis have the same origin). It'd also be rather arbitrary to use the term Cymry for the Welsh while using modern English terms for the other countries, none of which of course used modern English. If you're making a mod in English, imo it is easier and more consistent to use English for at least all the country names.

very good explanation by kor.

@Dynasty_IV

Nice mate, would be great to see. I'll happily work on an edit if it would make it look more fitting for the era.

@Seonid

Thanks mate, that would well appreciated. I've always had a unique love for this project, and truly I never meant for it to fall by the wayside. Sometimes life just overtakes one's hobbies.

@DJeronimo

I think you may have misinterpreted that mate. I was saying whether the woad raider would suffice as the Danish berserker, but perhaps in an edited form.

I've always enjoyed the Welsh; in fact, the scenario I've been designing in Aethelflaed which involves the Welsh is my most favourite yet.

In saying that, I was also wondering whether anyone knew much of the Welsh so that I could come up with a cool civilisation for them.

@Kor

Thanks very much for the feedback kor, you're always very informative.

It's a shame about the Teulu. I guess Uchelwr is good enough. I have noticed Medieval II: Kingdoms using the term Teulu for a heavy cavalryman, but they're not exactly the by-product of historical accuracy either.

I'm trying to write up the Welsh civ profile now but it's difficult without knowing a lot about them (which you alluded to). I guess the best I can go for is like you said creating something based around their hit-and-run/defensive nature. In Aethelflaed's time they certainly did raid "English" territory, as it is referred to in the Anglo-Saxon chronicle. A Mercian abbot called Echberht died at Hereford as a result of a Welsh Raid. I guess primarily they were defensive.

Also, you're right about the term 'Cyrmry', and I had thought about it. I'd initially thought of being even more specific and featuring Mercia, Wessex, Danelagh/the Dane Law and Brycheiniog, over the more general Anglo-Saxons, Danes and Welsh. But the latter seem to work better in context, and are much more flexible for further projects.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-18-2015 @ 04:40 AM).]

This looks great, Mash! I'm glad to see you working on it again

Yay! It's here! Nice job Mash I've been looking forward to seeing this for a while. Feel free to send a post to the Forge and I'll add your project there. Good Luck. I'm currently working on a Mod for my next project as well, once I finally finish Wrath of the Traibs. I'm newish t modding too but if you need any help then let me know

Alright, here is my Epic Post of Unit Graphics. Sorry, it's long.

There are a lot of them, so I'm going to sort them by unit type (infantry, cavalry, archer). For the infantry, there are so many that I will sort them by weapon type as well (sword, axe, etc...)

I'll list several units from the original game as well, as this is meant to be comprehensive, but I won't post pictures of them for what I hope are obvious reasons. I also won't post pictures of units you have already posted in the OP (but I will list them here - you've already included a number of units I was thinking of).

INFANTRY

Axe:
There are not a lot of Dark Age looking axemen in the original game. Luckily, there are quite a few new axe-wielding warriors in the blacksmith that seem to fit quite well in the time period you're looking at.

From the original game, the Berserk and the Woad Raider are probably your best options. The Throwing Axeman could fit, depending on what you want to do with it, but there are better 2-handed axe units out there, and better throwing axe units out there too.

You've already put down the Blond Berserk unit, and Dave's Light Axeman unit.

Jorgito's HD mod has some excellent Axemen units:

HD Militia:


HD Berserk:

This one could solve your Bear-pelt Berserker dilemma.

HD Throwing Axeman:

I know that the Vikings (which included the tribes that the Anglo-Saxons called Danes) used axes that could be thrown (although I don't know the actual prevalence of the thrown axe in combat). I also don't know if you plan on including throwing axes in your mod. If you do, this would be the best unit to do it with.

All of the axes we have looked at so far have been single-handed, with a shield in the other hand. Good, and likely historically accurate, but another prevalent period weapon was the Danish Axe, and there happen to be several beautiful units in the Blacksmith using that!

The Heavy Axeman mod, also by Jorgito and done for the now-defunct Age of Sherwood project:


Also, another Danish Axe-wielding unit that I haven't been able to trace down the original source of yet. Furik used it for a Varangian Guard in his mod, Dynasty uses it in the Age of Civ mod, and it also shows up in the ToME mod (which is my best guess at it's original creator, but I have no confirmation on that). No matter who made it, it is a beautiful addition:


Sword:
Sword units are probably the most commonly uploaded units in the blacksmith. Unfortunately, most of them are too late, period-wise. But some seem to fit perfectly.

From the original game, the Militia (technically a club unit, I know) and the Huskarl seem to be the only ones that would fit very well. (Although a case might be able to be made for the Man-at-Arms...an earlier description of your mod had the Hearth Troop using a kite shield, and the M@A is the best candidate for that)

You've already posted some of the best units, which are Dave and Kor's reskins of the Huskarl.

But here are some more for your consideration:

The Almogavor, from Achesun's AoV Mercenary Units. This may be a little out of place, but I thought it was close enough to be worth looking at.


Here's a Man-at-Arms with a different shield (that I'm in the process of making) that might fit as well.


From Dave's Hunnic mod (which you already have a link to), we get a couple more possibilities.

This militia unit he made is almost perfect for a Saxon freeman armed with a Seax. (If my frame capture isn't good enough to see, it's essentially a male villager with the Woad Raider's shield and a long dagger - larger than the villager's normal weapon I think.)


Likewise, the Falxman (which was created for a totally different period) may be useful for a freeman armed with a Langseax.


Spear:
The only period-appropriate infantry spearman in the original game is the basic Spearman. You do have Dave's new Spearman listed (and I see you are using one of his altered Pikemen - that's a unit I hadn't considered using).

We may need quite a few more spear models. Luckily, they exist (or soon will - in the case of the ones I'm making)

First, from the AoK Beta, we have a villager model armed with a spear - could be useful for a Thrall or some other peasant militia sort of unit. Furik extracted it for me.


The other spear units are in progress. I'm working on them, but slowly. The pace is definitely going to pick up now that I'm back into modding. Mine are alterations of Dave's Spearman w/Huskarl Shield - pretty much just Shield replacements.

With the AoK Berserk's shield:


With a Wooden Shield (taken from Kor's swordsman model that you've already posted):


With a leather Shield (taken from one of Dave's Arabic Swordsmen models):


If you like, one of these units may be a better fit for the Danish Hirdman.

That wraps it up for melee infantry. On to archery units.

ARCHERS
The selection of archery units that are period-appropriate is unfortunately extremely limited. Fortunately, your mod also has extremely limited archery units as well, so we may be able to match up our few assets to your few needs.

From the original game, the Archer and the Skirmisher fit perfectly. The Elite Skirmisher isn't too far out of the period, either. But the Longbowman certainly is.

The only options I've got to add to these come from Jorgito's HD mod (link above).

His Archer:

Could fir very well for a Welsh unique archer unit - in fact, Kor uses it for just that in Age of Chivalry.

Skirmisher:

Just in case you want an alternative to the Elite Skirmisher from the original game.

CAVALRY
Again, there aren't a lot of period-appropriate cavalry, but also again, you don't need a lot, so let's see what we can do.

From the original game, the Scout Cavalry is probably the only option that works for you.

You've already got the Dark Age Knight and Erechel's Genitour, which I was going to strongly suggest for you. (Also, Furik's Mounted Skirmisher was one I hadn't considered using)

A couple sword cavalry units that may be of interest to you:

Monsterslayer's Stradiot Scout:


From jorgito's HD mod (again) comes his Scout Cavalry:


If you have any desire for a Spear-wielding cavalry, Jorgito did a Militia Lancer for Kor's Age of Chivalry mod that looks period appropriate as well (at least, I think so):

It would probably fit as a heavy cavalry unit in this period.

There are also several additional javelin-throwing cavalry units, in addition to Furik's and Erechel's.

For his Hunnic mod, Dave made a unit that is essentially a spear-throwing Light Cavalry:


If that doesn't look quite period-appropriate, here's a Stradiot Mahazona made that was based off of it:


I think that either of these might be a replacement for Furik's unit for the Uchelwyr (especially Dave's), but I'm just throwing out possibilities here.


Finally, many people seem to worry about mixing Jorgito's HD units in with units done in the original AoK style, so I've taken a screenshot (using units from my Wheel of Time mod) with Jorgito's units side by side with others. I think it works out well:

[This message has been edited by Seonid (edited 01-17-2015 @ 02:35 PM).]

@Seonid: Just a small note about the spear-throwing light cav: Dave made that, the second one was actually made by Mahazona.

Whoops, my bad, got them mixed up. I'll edit the post to fix it.

Beta berserker will also be a good unit for this.guy on the left side.there is a bunch of recolored skirmishers done by me feel free to use any if you want.

[This message has been edited by Mahazona (edited 01-17-2015 @ 08:28 PM).]

@Seonid

Wow, thanks mate. Very comprehensive post! Much appreciated.

I was initially worried about jorgito's HD units not setting well in the AoK environment, however fantastic they look. Seeing that screenshot has changed my mind. There's many there I can use and that will fit nicely in the context of this mod. You seem to have picked out everything I would have used, and even noticed how some of the current ideas for units I have can be represented with a better unit, which I also had in mind.

The HD militia could serve well either as Danish infantry, or even the Saxon Hearth Troop.

The HD berserk fits the berserker unit I was after, and has the mean feel required.

I like the throwing axeman but I can't seem to think of how to fit it in with what I have. Could be a viking leader? Editor only?

As for the heavy axemen, it suits the Danish huskarl perfectly, as they were renowned for using the heavy "Dane Axe". I might actually consider revising the Saxon huscarl and call him 'thegn' instead. I understand the English didn't use huscarls until the time of Harold Godwinson in the 11th Century. The thegns are well known to have served under Aethelflaed, as a number of them died while trying to take Derby from the Danes. It might save the confusion of having two civilisations feature the huscarl, although both are historically related anyway.

Almogavor - Not sure with this one. Out of all the units it does look strangely out of place. There's plenty other units I'd probably choose over it anyway.

Man-at-arms - Good observations. I like your version of it too, and if I keep the Buscarles unit for the Saxons perhaps this could fit the bill?

I like the ideas on the Saxon Freeman. They're a cheap form of infantry the player has available before he is able to construct the Levy Quarters. I'd definitely consider using both. Obviously the Langseax unit would feature as the 10th Century upgrade.

The thrall unit looks good, and fits in alongside the Saxon Freeman as cheap peasant infantry. We just need a Welsh alternative, and I can't seem to think of a Welsh term we could use.

On the spearmen I've selected for the Danish Hirdman, I'd always hoped for a proper replacement, so a few of your additions definitely help. Not sure which one I'd go for but I'm definitely replacing the one I have currently.

Consider the new HD archer and skirmisher replacement done. I think the archer works nicely in the context for the Welsh bow upgrade the Saethwyr.

I agree with all your points on the cavalry. I'd consider them for the Saxon Muntator, the Danish Marauder and the Welsh Hobelar. I do think the spear wielding horseman could replace the Mounted Hearth Troop.

@Mahazona

Actually, I was thinking about that unit. I remember it from Kor's AoC - the Cliathairre for the Scots. I think it would fit nicely as a Welsh unit.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-18-2015 @ 05:06 AM).]

Quoted from Mash:

I might actually consider revising the Saxon huscarl and call him 'thegn' instead. I understand the English didn't use huscarls until the time of Harold Godwinson in the 11th Century. The thegns are well known to have served under Aethelflaed, as a number of them died while trying to take Derby from the Danes. It might save the confusion of having two civilisations feature the huscarl, although both are historically related anyway.

Aye, the Housecarl entered the Anglo-Saxon military force around the time of Sweyn Forkbeard and Canute in the early 11th century. One should note the parallels with the terms ceorl and karl, which describes the class of man below the Thegns/Thanes, but also made up a large amount of the Anglo-Saxon army through their service and levy systems. Huskarl/Housecarl simply means the household soldier of a nobleman or king, and as such were elite troops.

I'd just replace your Saxon Huscarl with a Ceorl unit that uses a similar graphic (maybe have the Ceorl use the current Hearth Troop graphic and the Hearth Troop use the current Saxon Huscarl graphic, as at this time the Hearth Troop was an elite force made up of the best Thegns). If you want to just use Thegns instead than that could work too, though there might be a little redundancy with the Hearth Troop unit as well.

As a side note: Saxon Housecarls were famed for their skilled use of the two-handed Danish axe, a weapon that struck fear into all of their enemies due to its range, the gruesome wounds it inflicted, and the mere ferocity of the soldier wielding it. It is interesting to see various Norman writers, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and the Bayeux Tapestry all referencing or even emphasizing this point. However, for all their ferocity, these troops had to break out of their own shield wall to find the space to wield their axe, and so when confronted with the Norman archers (Anglo-Saxon armies had seldom faced massed archers in combat, and at the point of Gate Fulford, Stamford Bridge, and Hastings the Fyrd had not been raised in decades- the Anglo Saxons had been fighting the Welsh but only the Housecarls and some local Thegns and Fyrdmen had seen battle) this presented a huge weakness. It was easy to draw out portions of the Anglo-Saxon army, cut them off, and slaughter them, which was exactly what Duke William did.

Obviously, this was some time after the time period your scenario is set in, but looking at the well-documented Anglo-Saxon military structure of 1066 can help a good deal when tracing it back to prior eras.

I hope this helps!

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 01-18-2015 @ 08:59 AM).]

Thanks very much HockeySam, you have quite some knowledge.

Obviously, I've been reading a lot about the Saxon way of life, but it's not always very clear. I'm rewriting the Anglo-Saxon Civilisation now. It's much more succinct in my opinion, and does away with some needless or repetitious units.

I'm also working on some general technology I would like available to the player, but obviously I will expand upon that over time.

I'm currently trying to think of a good way to revamp the Blacksmith to be more period suitable. Ideas are for boiled leather armour, which gradually develops into chain mail and even plate mail.

Because the Danes are Pagan I want them to have a different building to the Christian Monastery. I was thinking of the Sacred Grove or HORGR. These sacred sites were either a natural phenomenon of trees or stones, which I think fits nicely with the pagan feel. Even a building design wouldn't be too much, and we could just copy and paste to make it look believable. From this site we can recruit the Seer who ultimately heals and puts enemy units to death (rather than converts them, which only the Christian monk may do - he likewise cannot kill). The seer could perhaps be an edited version of the Aztec monk.

@Seonid

I was thinking for that spearman unit with the wooden shield, would it be possible to have the elite skirmishers head on him? It would look like the fyrdman is wearing a conicle helmet.

---

Heart of the Dragon | Aethelflaed ~ The Lady of the Mercians
Wind of the North | Defence at Lorgan's Watch | Blood of the Bear
StormWind Studios

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-19-2015 @ 07:41 AM).]

Obviously, I've been reading a lot about the Saxon way of life, but it's not always very clear.

Indeed! Many of the sources are contradictory, even with regard to Hastings, from which many inferences are drawn :/

One thing we do know is that the social organization of Anglo-Saxon England contributed heavily to its relative political stability despite centuries of war. David Howarth tells us that “England was divided into earldoms, earldoms into shires, and shires into hundreds. Hundreds were so called because they contained, or once had contained, a hundred hides, and a hide was the amount of land that could support a family,” and goes on to say later that “each hundred was expected to produce a few volunteers for the fyrd.”

I'll see if I can dig up some more primary sources that can help- last semester I had a class with a professor who was rather knowledgeable on the subject and so in that time alone I learned a lot, but he seemed to have access to a lot of interesting material. In particular, I'd recommend reading parts of The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle if you can get your hands on it. The amount of information in there alone will do wonders on this end!

I like the ideas about the Blacksmith and the Monastery as well. There's a few slots open in the Blacksmith to add unique Blacksmith techs, and you can replace the ones in the Monastery that are not fitting for this period.

[This message has been edited by HockeySam18 (edited 01-19-2015 @ 09:30 AM).]

With regards to replacing the monastery, Dire_Wolf did a Celtic shrine that might be useful to you.

And thanks! I'm glad that you liked my ideas. I'll send the unit graphics to Vardamir if he's helping you with the data editing. (I think that's what we decided? If we didn't decide, then I'm deciding now...)

For your other suggestions, I like the idea of the Throwing Axeman as a leader/hero unit (probably editor only). You might be able to get away with calling it the Jarl, but I don't know.

About putting the ESkirm head on the spearman - I can try. I'd like to finish the model first, before i do, but once it's done, I'll look at changing the head.

I like the idea of renaming the Saxon Housecarl a Thegn. Maybe use Kor's unit as the base unit and Dave's unit as an upgraded version (with the same name, if you like)?

Just ideas. I'll get on sending those units to Vardamir.

Vardamir - if you read this, I'm just going to upload them to the Wheel of Time dropbox account for you. I'll e-mail you about it too, if you don't catch this thread.

This also looks like a nice project, Mash... let me know if you need some units designed... I might soon have some time on my hands, again.

@HockeySam

I appreciate the time to write some feedback, it goes a long way to refining the civilisation for the Anglo-Saxons. I'll most likely look up some books and purchase them, as it's also a period I am greatly interested in. What course did you do by the way? I'd love to do something which involved learning about such a period.

@Seonid

Not sure what Vardamir ultimately wants to do, I guess we should all decide quite soon, and get a start on this.

Jarl seems good enough. There's various leaders in the scenarios I am designing who happen to be Danish Jarls, so the unit could feature nicely for them.

No stress about the head, I just thought it would add a layer of realism to the unit. Besides I never much liked the wide brim hat or whatever it is.

I'll post the Anglo-Saxon update shortly, I'm just revising some technology. I think the way it will work is:

1. The Thegn or Hearth Troop will feature as the civ's elite unit at the Ealdorman's Hall. This can be researched in the 10th Century. The Hearth Troop is in every way an elite professional soldier with the best arms and armour available.

2. From the 9th Century onwards the upper-peasantry have a unit called the Greater Fyrdman (from the term Greater Fyrd used to denote a slightly wealthier class of freeman. I think I had the term confused earlier, and used it to describe the thegn who is in fact the 'select fyrd') who is also available from the Ealdorman's Hall as a medium-strength swordsman. Name is subject to changing if anyone has any better ideas.

3. The Fyrdman is obviously the Saxon's cost-effective, mass-produced spear militia. They are supported by the research "Bordweall" or shield wall and receive +1 range for their spears, however at a slight cost: they suffer in mobility since the shield wall was vulnerable to flanking.

4. The next unit available at the Levy Quarters in the 10th Century is the Saxon Buscarles, or warrior seaman. He will feature as a light swordsman useful for backing the Fyrdman in battle.

5. I am cutting the mastiff. Seems redundant, but I'm open to suggestions.

6. Missile infantry are average, since the Saxons didn't really care too much for them. Battle was decided with infantry. The Welsh do however feature strongly with them.

7. One advantage the Saxons receive is their ability to develop the game's only form of heavy cavalry: the Mounted Hearth Troop. He will be on par with a knight, but comes expensive. While it is believed on strong grounds the Saxons never used cavalry, but rather dismounted to engage in the shield wall, there is one surviving painting where mounted Saxon warriors were fighting in Northumbria or something. So no doubt it existed in certain degrees, just not in the way the Normans must have used cavalry, or the Romans long before them. In any case, it's artistic licence, and available based on the point above.

One last idea: I'm trying to think of Viking unique technology. One such idea while reading about them is that maybe they have three gods to choose from through technological research, each giving the player a useful bonus. One for example might allow for +10 population limit, the other faster long boats, while another might grant unit regeneration (like in original aoK for beserks). Researching one of these obviously cancels out the others, like the policy decisions in Kor's Age of Chivalry.

@Khan Ivayl

Thank you for the offer mate. I'll be sure to keep that in mind if something does come to mind.

[This message has been edited by Mash (edited 01-20-2015 @ 02:20 AM).]