Scud why are you coming back to argue with the community's decision about whether or not AOFE is approved for use in the CSC?

Because it's relevant as the rule change has been brought up again, and I was adding to the discussion (Basse has said very much the same argument I have, but in a more 'oh lets not hurt anyone's feelings this post contains trigger warnings' king of way).

[This message has been edited by Scud (edited 05-05-2014 @ 10:22 AM).]

You can still do that, there is nothing stopping you from it.

With that statement also comes the predisposition that the ones I am competing with abide by the same standards.

With that statement also comes the predisposition that the ones I am competing with abide by the same standards.

Then why is not "only" The Age of Kings allowed? The Conquerors clearly have an advantage against the people who only have Age of Kings.

Then why is not "only" The Age of Kings allowed? The Conquerors clearly have an advantage against the people who only have Age of Kings.

AoK and TC came out within a very short time span compared to TC -> FE. Therefore a vast(a really vast) majority of the people who own AoK also own TC. Since it's conception, TC has brought so many 'vital' updates to AOK that it has become the general opinion that "you really' cant own AOK and not TC aswell." The community for AOK and TC has thrived without FE and FE doesn't bring as much content to the table, at least not any content that seems 'vital'.

Alternatively, if the need for an update in the rules becomes a general appeal, then that should be discussed, but as of now, the community has once already voted and the opinion hasn't changed all that much.

AoF adds (and continues to add) a lot of editor content, which is probably the main point of consideration here. Everyone else has pretty much brought up most of the sides of the argument, so making another similar post would just be fluff and redundant. There's one thing that nobody has touched on, though:

In the CSC, people are ideally voting for the best screenshot, not the one with the new graphics. If you take the best map designer here and make him use only objects and materials available in original AoK, then odds are that he will still win. Of course new graphics and editor objects enhance someone's toolbox in creating a screenshot, but it's not like AoF graphics are this indomitable addition that = an immediate win in the CSC. The better screenshot will still win, regardless, so all things considered I'm not convinced as to the rationale behind not allowing the new official MS expansion to AoE2. Back when this topic was last voted upon, AoFE was unofficial, but things have ofc changed since then (which is the main reason for the upcoming vote). Just playing Devil's Advocate there.

Anyways, it's all going to come down to a vote as it should. The community here is going to make a decision, and everyone has their reasons for voting. Hopefully the hostility will end there, and everyone will be happy with (or at least accept and understand) the decision that the community makes (especially since imo it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things). I'll probably abstain from the vote anyway since it's technically a conflict of interest, but I wanted to at least articulate the sentiment in the above paragraph purely from a designer's point of view.

Devestator is the winner! Please pick a new theme that will make up the category #279.

Now deciding whether to allow the "The Forgotten" expansion in the CSC or not. Accepting votes on this matter until May 9th!

There has been some dispute about the question of whether to allow the recent, second expansion - the first in over 10 years - to AoK, called "The Forgotten" and available only on Steam as a DLC to owners of the AoE 2 HD edition, which is also solely available on Steam. There are both arguments in favour of allowing this second expansion (such as it being official, like The Conquerors, unlike mods) aswell as arguments in favour of not allowing it (such as the big disadvantage that it would put participants without the HD version or the DLC). It is recommended to thoroughly think about this problem. Arguments for each side can be found in the posts of Whoracle, aoe_scout and HockeySam18, just to give some examples. Now it is up to you, fellow forummers and participants, to decide about this important issue.

So think about it, and cast your vote.



I also added this to the OP.

[This message has been edited by John the Late (edited 05-10-2014 @ 05:50 AM).]

Thanks for the votes guys The new theme shall be Underworld.

Also, my vote goes to Vanilla AoK/TC, which means No.

[This message has been edited by Devestator (edited 05-05-2014 @ 11:57 AM).]

Ooh, more under-stuff. *gets to work*

For the voting:
I vote No

Vote: No

I vote yes. I will use The Forgotten nonetheless.

People are using modding to create cool effects that we who don't know modding can not achieve, and that is supposed to be fair? Devestetors cool wave effect among many other effects only possible by modding the game is something I, and many many others who participate occasionally in CSC, could never achieve. So why not allow The Forgotten, which adds a few minor details to be added to a screenshot that everyone can use, and not only the ones modifying the game files.

Vote: Yes

It's an official expansion (I would've been against it when it was just a popular mod). If you ban The Forgotten we might as well ban AoK:TC because that gives an advantage over people who only have the base game (i.e they don't have the Mesoamerican tile-set as one of the examples).

You can't allow one official expansion pack but ban the other, you bunch of luddites.

[This message has been edited by Scud (edited 05-05-2014 @ 12:41 PM).]

Vote: No

Would change my mind if it would be possible to installf TF, if you have the normal TC ... Otherwise I see meyself in a disadvantage to TF-users.

Vote: No

Vote: No

Enough reasons have been raised.

Devestetors cool wave effect among many other effects only possible by modding the game

Well, that paticular effect could be done without modding, but you are kinda right. Perhaps it would indeed be a good idea to ban data editing from this competition as well.

But on second thought, it IS something anyone can learn, just like map designing and triggerwork.

[This message has been edited by Devestator (edited 05-05-2014 @ 01:12 PM).]

And on a third thought, you would never be able to enforce that rule. It is hard to tell if something has been modified data-wise, and nobody would benefit from banning that.

Well, as long as the effect is not visible in the screenshot, there is no advantage in data editing anyways.

But on second thought, it IS something anyone can learn, just like map designing and triggerwork.

Everyone also have access to buy The Forgotten expansion, probably cheaper as well in count of work-hours spent.

Everyone also have access to buy The Forgotten expansion, probably cheaper as well in count of work-hours spent.

That is true, but many people don't want to pay in order to stand a chance in a competition.

That is true, but many people don't want to pay in order to stand a chance in a competition.

Good point there.

Vote: No

That is true, but many people don't want to pay in order to stand a chance in a competition.

Then why would someone invest many many hours in learning to mod the .dat file to get the correct trick to use in a CSC?

Vote: Yes

It's an official expansion just like TC. You have to buy TC just like you have to buy AoF. It's just like if someone was limited to AoK because they couldn't afford TC yet.

But if we do allow AoF, will people vote against people's entries because they use AoF in favor of those who use TC. I'm not questioning people integrity, I'm just throwing that out there.

[This message has been edited by Reganknight (edited 05-05-2014 @ 03:05 PM).]

Then why would someone invest many many hours in learning to mod the .dat file to get the correct trick to use in a CSC?

Thats like asking: Why would you spend time on your CSC entry.

Then why would someone invest many many hours in learning to mod the .dat file to get the correct trick to use in a CSC?

Firstly, it takes no longer than two minutes to mod the data with proper modding knowledge. Second, what's better, pay actual money or just take a while to edit the basic data files?

Vote: No

Vote: No

I actually favor the admission of it generally, but I think that now is too close to the release to reasonably expect to change. It has been long enough since the release of the Conquerors that anyone who has AoK can be reasonably expected to have it. Not so with the Forgotten yet. In time, I expect that this competition will allow it, especially as I see AoF as the way of the future. But I'm all in favor of waiting longer, especially as prominent members of the community have voiced significant and valid concerns. Even if I don't share those concerns, I think that they are valid enough to justify waiting on allowing it for now.

Vote: No

So why not allow The Forgotten, which adds a few minor details to be added to a screenshot that everyone can use, and not only the ones modifying the game files.

@Basse: No offense, but that's far from true. The vanilla HD indeed adds few minor details (like better water) and is allowed, but The Forgotten HD adds hundreds of new objects/unit/buildings (check my previous post). Also you hugely overestimate the potential value of .dat editing, which in fact brings very limited benefits to screenshots.

Why "The Forgotten" is not like "The Conquerors" (a personal opinion):
I understand that people like the cool new content of AoF:HD and would be nice if it can be used at some point (may be a separate competition?). But you still can't compare "The Conquerors" with "The Forgotten", the very least they are 13 years apart and you can't just update your game with AoF:HD - you need to buy both HD games and use Steam.

"Official" is a little far off, when a new Expansion is 80% created from user content. They didn't even replace the Elephant Archer (until last patch) and Huszar, which look ridiculous for an official game. Thank god for the user Jorgito who made almost everything new. Not to mention campaigns, voice acting for the new civs, music and everything else made by users for the old FE.
And then add a lot of stupid bugs and problems, many of which not fixed for over a year - graphical glitches (even in main menu), bad path finding, ai problems (for ex. ai couldn't properly build trebuchets in two of the versions!), lag, multiplayer problems, etc. This doesn't really look very "official". Can you really compare it to what "The Conquerors" was for AOK? It's not what you imagine to get when you hear "HD remake" and that's why not so many people want to buy it, despite it's many good sides.

[This message has been edited by aoe_scout (edited 05-05-2014 @ 06:50 PM).]

Quoted from aoe_scout:

"Official" is a little far off, when a new Expansion is 80% created from user content.

No offence, but just because you don't think it deserves to be official doesn't mean it isn't official. I believe that since it is now officially and expansion it should be allowed.

Basse: No offense, but that's far from true. The vanilla HD indeed adds few minor details (like better water) and is allowed, but The Forgotten HD adds hundreds of new objects/unit/buildings (check my previous post). Also you hugely overestimate the potential value of .dat editing, which in fact brings very limited benefits to screenshots.

Well someone like me, who isn't very good at .dat editing is put at a disadvantage to someone like Knaber or Devestator who can. (e.g. the wave effect Devestator used with .dat editing.)


Plus we're not playing for money or anything. This competition is just for fun.

Vote: No

I'm too cheap to buy the same old game again, regardless of new features.

[This message has been edited by Lurkur (edited 05-05-2014 @ 11:53 PM).]

Vote: No

If the game was available in store as an add on to the original version of AOK & TC I wouldn't be against it's use. But as it stands, it requires people to re-buy a game that they already own (in a fancy HD version), which many people are not willing to do.

As for the people arguing that it should be allowed just because TC is, TC has always been available on it's own as well as packaged with AOK and so no one was ever forced to purchase something that they already owned just to play it (or use it's content for screenshots).

Tsitra

Vote: No

The usage of the forgotten will make only richmen can win the competition

[This message has been edited by Shyam prasad (edited 05-06-2014 @ 03:15 AM).]

If the game was available in store as an add on to the original version of AOK & TC I wouldn't be against it's use. But as it stands, it requires people to re-buy a game that they already own (in a fancy HD version), which many people are not willing to do

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The only people who would have an issue with 'The Forgotten' not being allowed is little kids who's parent's don't allow them to make online purchases with their credit cards, or all our beloved posters from third world nations who play AoK on government subsided toasters who don't have the money or bandwidth to install it.

Oh shut the hell up Scud, just provide a relevant argument in this thread and be done with it. No one is finding your negativity witty other than yourself. If you wish to keep partaking in the debate, resist your urge to keep ruffling everyone's feathers and play it nice.

And as for me, I vote Yes.

This competition has been running for almost a decade now. It's time for a little change, don't you think? Besides, I don't get the seemingly general conception here which claims those who own The Forgotten has absolute advantage in the CSC over those who don't. I'm pretty sure the majority here are wise enough to not judge solely based on how pretty the HD graphics or how cool the new objects are. You can still make a screenshot using AoK TC and win a round using your creativity.

As Reganknight said, this competition is just for fun. It always was. However, these ongoing dispute shows otherwise. If any of you is taking the CSC seriously, you'd do what it takes to win -- you'd get all the tools you can get which could help you win, which in this case, is believed to be AoFE.