200 not 2000. lol.

how is it that dwarves collect considerably less gold in ur test than villies?

also, some of the limitations you placed on your test make it difficult to judge the results (e.g., not considering villager costs and so on).

fh

It's because he did consider villager and dwarf costs. So when he used pure villagers, he used a food stockpile (2000 food) that he had from before, and when he used dwarves, he counted only the "profit" they made on the investment of 70 gold per dwarf. Now IMO this isn't very useful information since you will never have 2000 food off the start of the game and only have to gather gold or wood or whatever. However if you compare villagers with villagers it does show the rates.

BTW very few people make 3 ox carts by 5 minutes as Norse. They would probably add in an extra villager instead of a cart.

[This message has been edited by Matei (edited 12-12-2003 @ 10:03 AM).]

First off very very good job man. This must have taken hours and is the best attempt to access the true gathering rates of all civs. Well done.

However a few concerns. How many times did you repeat each test. If none then I would do that asap as otherwise your results could become subject to anomolies. One that I think I have already noticed is the Norse vs Greek no upgrades hunt statistic. I cannot believe that there is that much difference and would expect that the norse rate would be higher as there is less walk time due to the moveable ox cart, I think this needs to be reassessed.

Also, No Conclusions!!! wtf. You did the test so we want to know what you make of the results. Analysis and evaluation is key to any test. ANyway gj man

i'd also like to see tests done with hunting dogs

fh

since there are 3 main resources norse make 2 oxcarts, this puts at 3 total right? The making of 2 oxcarts 2*8 seconds = 16 seconds behind, or slightly more than a regular villager. And yes most will make 2 extra oxcarts before hiting classic.

And what I put as starting resources dont really matter as it is substracted later, its the gather speeds that matter. But since every civ dont want the same amount of all resources there is no good way of making them collect some amount of some and some of another. Hence I put them on one resource at a time. To still simulate the 3 resources u want (food, wood, gold), I had them go for same kind of resource but at 3 different locations.
Anyway there is no perfect way so I figured this was at least one way, a bit indirect but still. If they go to 3 locations this also will indirectly simulate them building gather sites for the 3 resources.

About the dwarves. compare it to what FOOD-costing gatherers collecting FOOD get in the same time: 1269 vs 1290, no surprise right? Making dwarves drain your gold but their 20% faster gather rates pays off later on. If I put gatherers at gold they of course dont drain your gold, but dwarves will outperform them due to poplimit later. The slower creation time of dwarves also will make only 7 dwarves at the same time u can make 8 gatheres. So Dwarves dont pay for themselves that very fast.

Ok some kind of analysis then (but I thought u could do that as well to right?):

It mostly started off as me claiming Atlantean vills being created 20% faster/ pop, which they still are. And me thinking this affected their speed to much. So I wanted to know how much difference this would make.

Starting out with the simplest. Over all Greeks seems to be a bit ahead of Norse everywhere. Why is easy to figure out. they start with one more villager and will be 2 ahead due to norse creating 2 extra oxcarts. oxcarts also cost 2x as much as greek gather sites. Later due to dwarves and building infantry Norse probably catch up, they also dont have to build 3 different buildings in classic, and can by now move the already created oxcarts. But also remember than those oxcarts will take pop for the rest of the game.

Atlanteans on the other hand seems to come up at Greek gather rates on both gold and wood, even if build time and price for guild is incorporated. They come up to hunting speed at norse rates or slightly less if norse gets husbandry, but then remember that husbandry is not "free", its an investement. So when looking at the starting resources again:

Greek (605 total)
Food – 250
Gold – 100
Wood – 255

Atlantean (750 total)
Food – 325
Gold – 125
Wood – 300

Norse (600 total)
Food – 250
Gold – 150
Wood – 200

Egypt (450 total)
Food – 250
Gold – 100
Wood – 100

There is no wonder why Atlanteans can rush u so hard early on.
Most people know that when upgrades come into play the non-Atlanteans will benefit more form them, because most upgrades will also make villager carry more resources. Carrying more resources reduces walking time, which equals more time to gather. This dont affect Atlanteans. But now also consider that there is no good study yet (at least what I know of), that shows how good Atlantean eco is later vs other civs, when more upgrades come into play.

Egypt is a bit harder to go into as they can vary the use of Pharaoh alot. But u know the story right? 10% slower gather rates, more benefit form upgrades, 20% pharaoh empower rates, free buildings, slower buildtimes...

Well what more can I say at the moment?

[This message has been edited by Ekanta (edited 12-12-2003 @ 07:13 PM).]

I didnt guess,but it's my conclusion from many of my games.
In AOM,I have made some very detailed calculation about villager second value based on rated games between egypt vs norse,norse vs greek.
The result is norse villagers second worth 20%- 30% more than greek or egypt villagers.
Although those calculation are done in AOM,the economic mode doesnt change much in AOT among norse,egypt and greek.

When you counting ox-cart,you have to also consider the collection way of greek.

I will try to find out some intern or expert's game on Titan between norse and greek,and see the result.

Good post!
Maybe you made some errors.

First of all,I appreciate the efforts on the testing.
But,there are something may make the result lead to wrong conclusion(is there one?)
1.I saw you mentioned dwarf doesnt pay back fast.
Let's compare:
Dwarf,unupgraded,gold gather rate: 1.09/s
Greek villager: fod gather rate(hunting): 0.73/s.
Dwarf need 64 seconds to get himself paid back(thor's need 55seconds).
Villager need 68.4 seconds to pay back(walking time not considered yet).

2.Who build those buildings?
Buildings are default in the senerio or you let villager/ulf to build it?

3.If it's a test to compare villager gathering rate only,why substract the villager cost? If you do substract the villager cost,then the test shouldnt stop at 5:00,since average game last about 20 minutes,as calculated above,any kind of villager need about 1 minute to pay off the cost,the number after the cost substracted didnt really reflect the real gathering rate(example is dwarf on gold).
the reason the mistake there is simple: In gold calculation,actually after you substract the food cost,all civils(except dwarf BO) should get a negetive number on food,but your model makes negative = 0,thus it doesnt make any sense.
Wood and food tests are good but gold is screwed.

I suggest if you would like to substract the villager cost,you should run the test for like 20 minutes to simulate the real game length.You may stop producing villagers after 5:00.
Or dont substract the villager cost at all,to give real gathering rate(which we already get from gathering rate table?)

4. All civils have different starting resource.Especially Atlanteans has a lot of starting resource.In your model,it doesnt reflect that.

I think this info is good stuff. It's real world figures instead of theoretical ones. While we can argue back and forth about how many oxcarts we need and the like, this gives a basic guide.

goodbaby I think you didn't understand what he did. He gave all the civs 2000 wood/food/gold to start with and afther the test he substraced 2000 wood/food/gold again.

nice tests

why do atlantean villagers train faster then normal ones?? (pop wise)

First off, this is just a model to messure gather rates and adding in building times/costs, walking, creation times etc. As such I think its quite ok. Gather rates in tables dont take this into consideration. The civs have different starting resources but its not incorporated here, u have to do that yourself.
Also dont look at what the civs can collect of one resource only, this will be a bit missleading. Different civs require more of some and less of some. Look at it in totality for all 3 resources. For example Atlantean vills cost a tiny part wood etc.

Quote:

Did you take into consideration creation time? 8 villagers at the time of 7 dwarves... thats 14% more workers if not dwarves. And do they cost the same? This is valid till poplimit. And then there will be oxcarts taking pop...

Quote:

One villager built. For Norse the ulf.

Quote:

Yes I know! Dwarves need some time to pay off. Dwarves gather gold 20% faster than normal vills. But do they really pay off before poplimit if they dont do it here? Gatherers are created faster from the start of the game till the end right? for every 7 dwarves made the opponent could have made 8 gatherers for gold! Thats +14% workers if not going dwarves, and then also ad that dwarves are more expensive. Then ad ox taking pop...

In the long run? god knows what happens. But u cant stop making vills that would screw a test for sure. This because Citizens/Dwarves have different creation times. This is also why I decided to stop at 5 min. Otherwise? To complicated I guess. Someone else can do that. Test only originally made to check out the Atlanteans in comparison with other civs up to 5 min mark (land builds).

Quote:

No I didnt, because I focused on what they could GATHER in 5 min. only. But yes as posted in my post above Atlanteas have some good starting resources. Probably to make them able to dock fast and keep tc production up at the same time, but it also allows them their super fast and still good classic times right?

Quote:

Well I didnt make the game but I guess since they cost 3 pop and dont come out 1/3 at a time as other civs do. I think it has become known as the trickling factor (spelling?). Thus for example a greek player will get the vills out 1,2,3, and they can start to work sooner. Also they dont gather exactly 3 times faster. Some say its 2.5, but no, its somewhere between 2.5 and 3 I think.

Well anyway this was the best I could answer!

[This message has been edited by Ekanta (edited 12-19-2003 @ 03:46 PM).]