Everybody can play this game, it is designed for that, but it is up to you to shine and become an elite player no other could match.

I assume this is a joke to try to show people why AQ doesnt ruin the game...

It's not a joke...

progress is fine, making the game easier is fine, dumbing down the game to monotony is not fine. Auto-queue took the trend just a bit too far. And I don't know about you, but my most enjoyable moments in this game were when I was in a pitched battle, feverishly trying to maintain economic efficiency, unit production, and military micro. Guess what, I don't get that anymore and it is a damn shame.

[This message has been edited by ArgoNaut_Ore (edited 06-25-2004 @ 09:45 PM).]

Quoted from Meteora:

Wow. You're right. What was ES thinking? Making games that everyone can play would increase their user base, provide them with more money, and enable them to continue making games. Whereas if they listened to this sort of mentality, they'd create games that maybe a few thousand people would be able to play and enjoy, and would end up going bankrupt.

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Let's take this to it's logical conclusion then: Since button clicking and key pressing are so important, lets just do away with the graphical interface altogether and go back to when people played real games. Today's computers noobify everything! They make it too easy. In order to get maximum enjoyment from this, and any other game, we need a text interface. Only then will the true elite gamers emerge and take their rightful place at the top.

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That is simply uncalled for. Rant if you like, but don't call people "retards" just for taking advantage of an in-game feature. I've watched some recs of experts playing and they use the same features that you're griping about. Does this make them "retards"?

If the new features bother you so much, go back and play the older games. I still pull out games from my Commodore 64, even though they have terrible graphics and a crappy non-intuitive interface, simply because I think they're great games.

... If the main skill of this game is the ability to make units without losing a few seconds due to being occupied elsewhere then ES needs to do a lot of work and thousands of people are stupid for playing it after "almost all the skill was taken out of the game by AQ". I think instead of making the game harder for others so you look better you should spend your energy on getting better at AoM. The aimbots in FPS is nothing like AQ. It would be more like the devs being unthoughtful and not including an ammo count and then including it and a bunch of players whine because they lose yet another advantage they had over others and now need to practice more to be good.*starts sarcasm* After all, manually counting your ammo and knowing exactly where to jump when it is depleted is an important skill! *ends sarcasm*Why can't you spend the extra time you save on building management to make sure your resource income is optimal, or to scout and check out if you missed something on the map or look for enemy weaknesses. Or even more imporantly, micromanage your army. Micromanagement is one aspect of gaming that you can always improve on. Pumping units out of 4 baracks is something that has its limits. Once you can do it, you can do it, micro, on the other hand, you can ALWAYS do better. I suggest you stop wasting your time on whining and go practice some more. I've been playing RTS for 6 years. When WC3 came out with features that lets you simplify micro nobody complained. People focused on getting better rather than complaining. You can have sub-groups, and you don't need to clone anymore because the game automatically does it for you, HP are so high my CAT could hydra dance! Nobody complains though and a high level player will still beat a low level player just like he would in StarCraft. Again... just take your whining somewhere else.. you're scaring customers off. When I was buying TT whingers like you almost kept me from getting it with their "AQ ruins the game there is no point to play it now".

[This message has been edited by PirateFace (edited 06-25-2004 @ 10:05 PM).]

I agree, PirateFace.

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It wasn't really a joke, because I was serious in my intent. But it was satire that was intended to prove a point.

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It's funny how you can draw an imaginary line and say "this is too far, but this isn't." If AQ is bad, then everything I mentioned is also bad. I used the exact same logic.

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Actually I just took a few passages from one of NIB's posts on AQ, and I changed them to fit my situation. The whole "retards" thing was originally said by him.

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I completely agree with just about everything you said.

Meteora:

If you dont like AoM or AoKs way of doing things, play your AoE with sh*t graphics and no surprises in-game whatsoever...

Mete two things:

1.Clicking isnt everything believe it or not! The things that win the game are: knowing where to attack what to attack with and when to attack not muhahahaha i have faster mouse speed than you.

Now to teach you about marketing!
You see a new product is often sold becuase of a flashy package, this person who buys what in this case is a game plays it. At this point three things can happen.
1.The person likes it and tells his or her friends about how great it is and increases the possibility that more people will buy it
2.He can tell his friends it sucks and make there be less chance someone will buy it
3.He can return it and tell noone

Now there are different reasons why a person could not like it, it could have bad graphics it could be exceedingly hard to play or it could be to bland.

Now after giving this little article of how games are sold can anyone tell me why ES has added things like auto que and waypoints etc etc?

Uthinkof1: plz go back to english (or literature) class. kthx.

Quin: That lecture was unnecessary, and it's nice if you completely understand a post before attempting to teach the poster about something.

[This message has been edited by Meteora (edited 06-25-2004 @ 11:38 PM).]

I'm finding it very informative how many people struggle with sarcasm around here. *takes notes*

Meteora,

this was brilliant! Much needed. Now can you clean up the few grammar mistakes and go post this in the MFO-AoM general forum? Some d00ds in there need something like this, and it's no surprise that Mr. "I hatre innovation" Argonaut_Ore was arguing with you. That's exactly what these clowns sound like.

Thank you!

Ok, I'm a sucker. It's just hard to read sarcasm in text.
I am getting pretty tired of all the ranting going on about AQ though. These people need to accept it, or go play something they enjoy instead of complaining.

Well his arguement is still well founded. What the age series needs is some other factor that adds to how good you are other than speed(current state).

Natus:"Meteora,
this was brilliant! Much needed. Now can you clean up the few grammar mistakes and go post this in the MFO-AoM general forum? Some d00ds in there need something like this, and it's no surprise that Mr. "I hatre innovation" Argonaut_Ore was arguing with you. That's exactly what these clowns sound like.

Thank you!"

Innovation is fine, and I've never had a problem with it, but just because something is new doesn't mean it is better. Mindlessness to me is apparently at a much higher "stimulus" level than yourself, so what would seem terribly fast paced to you may be terribly slow paced to me. Do me a favor, play vanilla for a few days with any civ. Then come back to AoT and play atlantis and see how bored you become.

The problem, as has been brought up on the MFO forums, is that each of these "innovative" features brought into the age games since the beginning have removed an element of skill and dare say "ability", through AoM these removals weren't particularly detrimental to gameplay or what is RTS skill. I'll agree with you that there is mindless clicking in AoE (no waypoints comes to mind), but Auto Queue takes it too far.

I don't mind auto queue too much in noncompetitive play, but when the game becomes competitive, if I can do something more efficiently than you can, then I should gain advantage. With auto-queue this isn't the case. If you don't understand why, then you don't understand the game well enough.

to cheezewiz, if you don't want speed as a major component of RTS, then play just S. There is a reason it is real time; time is a resource and using it efficiently should be rewarded. In AoT it is not.

One reason Auto-Queue sucks is that i played a hour and ten minute game yesterday, should have been great fun and I should have been exhausted after such an epic. Guess what, because of auto-queue, I actually got unbelievably bored, set all my buildings to auto cue to a choke point, built a wonder and got something to eat and won. You should not be able to do that.

[This message has been edited by ArgoNaut_Ore (edited 06-26-2004 @ 00:30 AM).]

So if I can micro better than you should ES jack up all the unit HPs so I can take advantage of that more easily?

that makes absolutley no sense, by jacking up unit HPs it actually makes micro that much harder. Micro is killing off weak/damaged units quickly and getting unit counters to attack their specified unit. Having high hp units just means that the targeted unit won't drop as quickly, thereby allowing it to dish more damage and making micro nearly pointless. Ohh and another thing, if the HP increase is proportional across the board, it makes no difference.

PS they didn't marginalize your micro ability, they did however marginalize speed ability. Now think why many people despise auto cue. Speed is what they are good at, and ES gave slower players a handicap. They didn't however give a handicap to any other skill.

[This message has been edited by ArgoNaut_Ore (edited 06-26-2004 @ 00:37 AM).]

Actually Meteora the experts I have seen are the players who dont use auto que for some things, many times I dont see them use it at all. I have also found autoque to be counter productive. If you have to many military buildings pumping units you are going to get your resources completely drained.

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Yea, Im pretty sure the computer moves the units no matter what u do...considering you're playing on a cpu...

Whats the different between pressing V or click a button a few times? Oh no, 2 seconds!

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Wow, thats what I said when I read you're post!

(Quote) "That's exactly what these clowns sound like"

And you are?

(Quote) "Thank you!"

Gladly?

(Quote) "Innovation is fine, and I've never had a problem with it, but just because something is new doesn't mean it is better"

ES grand design ----> 'Autoque'

Innovative, an envy to all competition... including YOU!!!!

Everything is fine problem is you lack 'speed' to understand the real potential of what an enhancement can really do.

(Quote) "Do me a favor, play vanilla for a few days with any civ. Then come back to AoT and play atlantis and see how bored you become"

So you're bored huh?

Being bored is irrelevant... Chemistry/genetic factor and subjective to others people perspective.

(Quote) "The problem, as has been brought up on the MFO forums, is that each of these "innovative" features brought into the age games since the beginning have removed an element of skill and dare say "ability" ..."

The element of skill of past games i.e 2D genre are based on "actual" technology of that particular period of time.

The supposedly "fun" is actually "stupid" for us today. The 'click' is a waste of time. Period! We move into greater plain as such the 'S' factor.

If any of you find that the 'click' is a positive essence in our human advancement, then might as well call yourself stupid!

Or in another words -- A click addict!

He he he heeeee... <sorry I can't help myself here>

Thank you.

(Quote) " ...but Auto Queue takes it too far"

Please use the term 'Autoque' ...Why?

Oh wait... You like to type longer and 'click' even further ... He he he he...

Well anyway, some of your points are based on Stone Age kind like perspective, I shall therefore decline the rest of your post.

Good day Gentlemen!

Note : 'Click' reffered to as 'the mindless clicking'

...

what are you 4? Make a coherent post. At least I argue a point, you just quote and say stupid shit after the quote. Gain a little perspective.

[This message has been edited by ArgoNaut_Ore (edited 06-26-2004 @ 03:13 AM).]

We've had too many of these AQ posts, though it's pretty obvious AQ does greatly decreases the gap between the skilled and the less skilled players.

It's also obvious that less skilled players are now happy they can keep up with the skilled players, where skilled players are unhappy because the less skilled players can keep up with you because of the computer microing the unit production.

Everyone has to agree with me, I put it clear now, and at least experts agree with me

Either this thread is a joke or written by someone who just drank a litre of gasoline.

And Yohan, no, just because youve whined about it 600 times does not mean its a fact that AQ significantly narrows the gap between newbs and experts. If you actually want to prove this.. -sigh- send a rec.

Johnny boy...!

Don't do that, please do not belittle... bla bla blaaaa...

Thread is an eye opener, it gives us the pro and cons above all the autoque debacle. Yes Yohan please... stop IMHO.

Hell O ArgoNut!

It's okay.

...

Would you start writing in english? Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but you are becoming almost a standing joke on these forums, since both your short and your loooong posts are totally incomprehensible.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 06-26-2004 @ 09:01 AM).]

Okay stop it.

...

Again...

HUH!?!??!

I mean somtimes you seem really smart and make good remarks, other times I just have NO IDEA about even what you are TRYING to say.. I dont know if you are some kid joking around (it has happened before) or if its a language barrier. Sorry if its the latter and I offended you.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 06-26-2004 @ 10:34 AM).]

"to cheezewiz, if you don't want speed as a major component of RTS, then play just S. There is a reason it is real time; time is a resource and using it efficiently should be rewarded. In AoT it is not."

These kinds of zero-sum arguements are ridiculous. Speed is a very real advantage in AoT. It's just not a singular, dominating, advantage. It means being fast is not, in and of itself, a sure path to victory. Boo-friggen-hoo.

To excell at AoT, you need to play fast AND smart. How that is a step backwards is beyound me. If you can't win except by massing units, you don't exactly qualify as an "expert" player, and you have no right to cry about losing to "newbs".

And finally, as I, Johnny, Meteora, and several other people have already said, you have no proof that Auto-que ruins the game. No non-anecdotal evidence that bad players are climbing the ladder through the amazing power of auto-que. No-recs showing auto-que doing any of the things you claim it can do.

Does it help people play the game? Of course, it's supposed to. Will it mean that players can become decent without extensive h-v training? Yes, it's supposed to. Does it eliminate skill, so that there is no depth or skill-levels to the game? The evidence is solidly against you.

[This message has been edited by Zappos (edited 06-26-2004 @ 11:56 AM).]

First of all, I haven't read the whole thread. I'm answering based on Meteora's first post alone.

Man, I have to tell you I respect you a lot, because you always seem objective in your comments and right about what you say.

But this time, I really have to say what are you thinking?
I can understand complaints about AQ, even though I do not agree with them, but going as far as saying Waypoints are also a problem is too much.

Of course they're trying to make the game easier to play. That's what games are for. You know? This kind of games have completely distorted people's views. They're GAMES. They are made to be played, they are made to have fun. However, as anything that involves competition, they have evolved to a place where people feel superior because of a higher rating. They feel they have the right to play the game, while n00bs, as you like to call them, don't even deserve to be playing the same game they are.

Well, let me tell you, for a guy to be playing over the net, he is already one step ahead of a newbie. For a guy to know how to use waypoints and AQ, he is already one step ahead.

Let me tell a second thing, ratings don't mean anything. NOTHING AT ALL. So you're better than 30,000 other people who are playing the game. Well, congratulations, that will do something for you in your life. You can go with girls ranting how good you are at AoM, and they will fall for you.

You can go to Harvard saying you have the fastest classical time ever, and you will get a full scholarship for their economics faculty.

You can go to Coca-Cola, or Wal-Mart and say: Hey! I am a 2000+ player and you'll be their new CEO.

The only thing ratings work for, are for your personal satisfaction, in an inappropriate way if you ask me. Ratings should be erased completely, just to make the game fun again.

I understand you being unhappy with some feature, the thing that's not right is to do this. Carelessly go complaining like it ruins the game, when it's something trivial. I know because I was one of the people who ranted about the Green terrain in the Conquerors mini-map for the 1.0b patch. However, I realized I was just being stupid, and I stopped, and fortunately, I didn't stay with a bad reputation I could've deservedly gotten with all those rants.

So... if you want to be the most skilled player in the whole galaxy, work for it. Just don't go step on other people's right to play the game just for fun, and that includes kids, casual gamers and many other groups that don't give a tad about ratings. Just something to think Meteora.

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Ratings are great since you can play with ppl your own skill. In AoK friendly games were often ruined since ppl played expert games while being complete noobs and vice versa. You dont have to take ratings seriously (I dont) to have use of them.

About the AQ then.. I agree with Zappos, and I wont add anything more to the "discussion" until I see something solid from the anti-AQers, not just "a friend of a friend of mine"-stories and weird american sports-analogies.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 06-26-2004 @ 01:13 PM).]