Wow, this is a neat find. With all this stuff about hyperion coming up, I might end up picking him all the time.

1.5 HP / second healing rate.
Research at the palace.

Install tooltips aka rollover help from my website or download the spreadsheet if you like.
It shows all the correct healing rates for units, healing spring, techs, etc...

This is one of the reasons Egypt priests are nice.
I think some people underestimate how healing factors
into the game.

Thanks for that feedback, Xentelian.

I was also wondering if fully upgraded Hero Fanatics with Heroic Renewal could possibly be the best pound for pound non-Myth units in the game. I think I'll experiment with that one and perhaps test them against fully upgraded Myrmidons.

But fanatics drop like flies to archers, even Hero Fanatics.

Everyone thinks Fanatics get raped by archers, but in fact they have more pierce armor than Murmillos. It's just that they train slowly and are expensive and thus get countered by cheaper massed archers. I'm not sure if they get a bonus against infantry and cavalry or against all human units.

Nice find on the Heroic Renewal, I was already impressed by the heroized infantry hordes running around killing TCs and not ever dying. Could this be Hyperion's true (only) real asset? Especially when combined with Prometheus' Valor and cheaper Heroes. Gotta try it.

I do think that Heroes are the key to Hyperion. Elsewhere I posted about his strengths because everybody else seems to concentrate on his weaknesses.

Chaos GP: So many people complain about how weak this is, but it's strength lies in it's usage and the key to using it is Myth Units. If you cast this on an enemy group that includes a Myth Unit, you will ALWAYS chaos the Myth Unit. Think about that one.

Satyr: As already discussed, Satyrs are decent against Titans and they get a 3x bonus against other Myth Units. Again, Hyperion gives you an edge over Myth Units (and everybody appreciates ranged anti-Myth Units). Massing these is not as tricky as some people make out. Kronos gets cheaper MUs anyway ans Oranos should have no excuses for not being able to perform a quick Town Centre grab for the Favour. They are actually very good when massed and upgraded. Just lay off the Turma a bit!

Nereid: Again, an excellent anti-Myth Unit, albeit against water MUs. 7x bonus! Phew! No more Scylla/Kraken spamming folks!

Heroic Renewal: See above posts.

So it seems obvious to me that Hyperion is a good choice against heavy Myth Unit assaults. He would make a good choice against Zeus & Loki, I'd say. Choosing Hyperion will certainly stall any enemy strategy that involves Myth Units. No need to fear rampaging Collossi or Giants. And how would the Nidhogg cope with a troop of Satyrs or Hero Arci?

I'm definitely appreciating Hyperion more the more that I use him. He's all about the Heroes.

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Human Units

Check my hyperion guide :P The bottom link of my signature.

Upgrading to heroes, isn't usually worth the money, which is why people don't use them that much.

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Nope just Infantry and Cavalry. However since archer armor is so low and fanatic attack is so high it gives the impression of a bonus, and fanatics still hack apart archers with ease. As long as you have conscript Palace units Fanatics are omnipotent.

IIRC, myrmidons will beat fanatics, but they're one of the few units that will. Fanatics will even come out on top versus even population of elephants, one of only three units to do so sans myth upgrades.

It's a good thing there aren't any fanatic myth techs.

Does anybody know how hypaspists do against fanatics?

Remember that Prometheus gets that Hero tech which makes converting to heroes cheaper. That makes it better when combined with Heroic Renewal.

Converting to heroes is good if you've got tons of resources and a maxed-out pop. Then you can strengthen your forces without any restrictions.

I totally agree with you, Lone_Prodigy. Hyperion is best used in conjunction with Prometheus.

On another note, I mentioned earlier that Chaos GP will always affect the Myth Unit in any given enemy group; this isn't quite true. It won't affect flying Myth Units at all but it will always affect land Myth Units. I have found that Satyrs beat Stymphalian Birds though. Last night I played against Gaia and one Satyr (with Gemino upgrade) took out two Stymphalian birds quite quicklyt with the help of one Town Centre and no other assistance. I would assume that they also do well against the Phoenix, the Roc and ultimately the Nidhog!

[This message has been edited by Centaurus (edited 11-16-2004 @ 08:37 AM).]

Good news! :-)

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Hypaspist do OK vs fanatics, but anyone will bring Fanatics+Cheiros which both counter Hypaspists.

I think everything about Hyperion is about countering myth units,

The Satyr I always looked at him from the start as a Land Nereid, just with range instead of a higher bonus. I thought it was unfair to judge the Satyr vs human units since that is not his purpose (in my opinion).

I have been playing a lot of Kronos of lately and I think Ill give Hyperion more consideration now under the right situations (primarly vs Zeus, Loki and another Kronos player).

added.

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I would hope with a TC firing 9*2 pierce attack per second that the Satyr could beat some of them. A true test would be a Satyr against a Stymph bird. Which the Stymp bird wins easily. Also against a Titan Stymph birds do better than Satyr, especially when you consider Titan can'touch them.

I think massed satyr do better against massed stymps than stymps do against massed satyr, this is do to the huge spread of the satyr special. If Gemino gave the Satyr 2 normal spears then the Satyr with that upgrade may be worth it. As it is spending 350 wood and 25 favor to throw 3 extra spears every 20 seconds is not worth it.

I fully agree with Pascal9872
Chaos is really affective, though. Much more than it sounds or seems. Much better than traitor and in a couple cases Hesperides Tree *prepares flame shield*

The satyr's gemino is really quite expensive though, so only if you are making ALOT of satyrs should u bother with it. The special is really not that powerful...

Nereid is a very good water mu. 'nuff said.

Heroic renewal is only good if you have heroes. You should only have heroes if:
A) you have too many resources
B) your enemy uses a lot of mus
C) your enemy is building a titan
Upgrading to hero is expensive, and generally not worth it. Maybe ill edit my hyperion guide and go into more depth about this tech.

If you take the Prometheus/Hyperion combo with Oranos, you get cheaper Atlantian heroes that regenerate very quickly and also move faster.
And if the game lasts into mythic, you (at the expense of better siege) can then take Hecate and get regenerating myth units (and a regenerating Titan). It would make the Satyrs slightly more useful.

Thanks for the feedback on the Stymphalian birds, Pascal. I'm surprised that the Stymphalian bird beats the Satyr because the Satyr looks better on paper. I don't know how to do tests in the Editor (but I could learn). Has this been done before?

The Satyr equals the bird on Hitpoints, it has equal hack armour to the bird and more pierce armour than the bird, it is faster than the bird and it has a 3x bonus against Myth Units. The bird outranges the Satyr (just) and does more damage (Hack).

I'm certainly not saying your wrong Pascal, I'm just surprised. Of course, the Satyr is easier to mass than the bird because it costs less resources and only takes up 3 Population as opposed to 4 for the Stymphalian Bird and 5 for the Behemoth.

In fact, having reviewed Hyperion's overall costs, he works out to be the cheapest Atlantean Heroic Age God in terms of resource costs. He costs a bit more wood and favour than Rheia and Theia but Rheia costs a nasty amount of Gold (Food & Favour too if you want Behemoths) to be effective and Theia costs a large amount of food. In fact, only Heroic Renewal costs Food (150 to be precise). Surely all that saved Food & Gold can be spent on Heroes? The Satyr is also the cheapest Myth Unit in Heroic (not including the Dryads) which means that they can be more easily massed.

Detailed info can be found here.

[This message has been edited by Centaurus (edited 11-17-2004 @ 04:29 AM).]

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Actually the titan cannot directly hurt a styphian bird but if the bird is very near the titan while he is attacking ground units the bird will take the same damage as any ground unit.

"I was also wondering if fully upgraded Hero Fanatics with Heroic Renewal could possibly be the best pound for pound non-Myth units in the game. I think I'll experiment with that one and perhaps test them against fully upgraded Myrmidons." - Centaurus

Well, i would like to know too: Myrm Vs Fanatic: Who wins?
And, afterall:
Does the bonus Myrms and Fanatics receive counts Vs ANY human unit or exclude archers? How much is this bonus?
Wich is better (pop/cost wise) Vs Mu's? Hero fanatics or Myrms (with Beast slayer tech)?

If you look at just the stats you still see that the stymp bird is so much better than the Satyr.

Cost: 180W 50G 25 Fav for Stymp vs. 225 W 18 Fav for the Satyr
So only the favor cost is really higher.

Stymp 400 HP 15% hack 30% pierce 15 range 33 attack (X3 bonus on myth, 0.25 on heroes)
Satyr 400 HP 30% hack 50% pierce 16 range 12 attack (X3 bonus on myth)

So Satyr has about 330 more hack HP (it better have that since many hack attack units can get it Stymp only needs to worry about TA), 230 more pierce HP than the bird. But again it needs it since it can't run away as easily as the birds.
Where you see the true reason to take the stymph bird is in the 33 attack vs. 12 attack. The Stymp bird does 175% more damage per second to humans and myth than the Satyr. The one thing in favor of the Satyr is it does 45% more damage to heroes than the Stymp bird does (12 vs. 8.25). :P

If the Gemino upgrade doubled the number of normal spears thrown then it would make the Satyr a usable unit with 24 pierce.

As it is you should only get the Gemino upgrade if you are winning and want to gloat to your opponent afterwards by saying "I beat you even though I got Gemino!".

remember all, that stymph bird shoots 3 feathers at a time instead of the 1 javelin that the satyr throws.

Satyrs are usually better than behemoths for me though as kronos.

I just did a Test in the Editor with a Satyr against a Stymphalian Bird. Unfortunately I wasn't able to figure out how to upgrade the Satyr with Gemino

Anyway, in the first test, the Bird got the first strike in against the Satyr. The Bird won with about a quarter of it's hitpoints remaining. I then did the test again with the Satyr being the first to attack. Again, the Bird won but this time it had only about a tenth of it's hitpoints remaining! Now if the Satyr was upgraded with Gemino, wouldn't the test suggest that the Satyr would win? Plus, the Satyr has 50% Hack Armour not 30%. :P

With regards to cost, I prefer to value the total sum of resources rather than individual resource costs. The Satyr costs 225 wood and 18 favour (203 & 17 with Kronos) for a total resouce cost of 243 (230 with Kronos). The bird costs 180 wood, 50 gold and 25 favour for a total resource cost of 255. Plus the bird costs one more Population point than the Satyr.

I also thought that Gemino does double the number of javelins that the Satyr throws...that's what it seems to do and that's what the information about Gemino states. Is there a bug or is that info incorrect?

I'll try and test an individual Gemino upgraded Satyr against a Bird and post back the results. Unless somebody else gets there first...

Cheers!

you really shouldn't count the resources together, since favour takes a lot longer to gain than wood.

To set gemino upgrade, use trigger: Set Unit Tech.
I think that is what it is...

If all of stymphalian bird's feathers hit, satyr would have no chance :P

Hi Yuki... (nice guides by the way!)

You're right about the Favour, but the Bird still costs 25 as compared to the Satyr's 18 (17 Kronos).

If all the Bird's feathers hit then the Satyr takes 33 damage reduced by 50% because of his Hack armour (about 16/17 damage?). If a Gemino upgraded Satyr hits with both javelins then the Bird takes 24 damage reduced by 15% due to Pierce armour (about 20 damage?) so the Bird would still take more damage per second and that's not including the Satyr's special. Am I not doing my maths correctly here?

Thanks for the help with upgrading the Satyr. I'll test it out again later when I get back and see if the proof really is in the pudding! I'll post back the results.

Cheers.

sometimes their javelin miss thou.

Yay! someone actually read my guide

Well, you also have to take into consideration that the stymphalian bird also gets a bonus multiplyer against mus, just like the satyr.

With the talk about Satyrs vs. Stymp. Birds, I tested them in the editor, upgraded and regular. I say they come out equal. One on one it depended on who attacked first. With the upgrade, the Satyr always won.

So for the argument on whose better, I say they are equal. The birds cost more overall resources as compared to Satyrs, but can only be attacked by ranged units. The Satyrs are well armored, but still fall rather quickly to the powerful ground heros.

IMO, Satyrs are good ground support like trolls. There are definitely more powerful heroic myth units, but not many more powreful support units than the Satyrs.

BTW, I did test vs. counterparts in the other cultures. Satyrs beat Manticores, slaughtered Dryads, and lost against Petsuchos. Didn't do particular good against the Heroic Norse but that is to be expected.

Thanks for the tests drgnfly! I've tried but I can't work out how to get the stupid Editor to work with upgrades! Maybe I'm too old for this new-fangled technology stuff!

Anyway, I'll accept your findings on the Satyr and leave it at that...at least they're not as bad as a lot of people thought.

One further note, I played Oranos against Zeus last night (through Hyperion) and I had a casting of Chaos that DIDN'T affect the Collossus in the group that I used it on, so it would appear that Chaos doesn't always affect Myth Units (but it does most of the time!).

Cheers!