Atlanteans have weaker vills at collecting stuff by -10% at the beginning of the game, but to help for this, their economic upgrades give +15% instead of +10%, giving them a better eco like they need lategame.

Isis only gets cheaper techs on everything BUT eco ups and armoury ups.

Atlanteans hero citizens collect more.

Turma are not given an automatic medium archer upgrade.

Destroyers are given less hack armour.

Flaming weapons only +35% attack.

Prosperity only gives +60% gather rate gold.

Frost -5 second duration.

Thor dwarves have slightly less gathering at food and wood capabilites.

Mercenaries are given a recharge time before you can make them again from the tc.

Shockwave only affects half the units targeted, and only can be used twice.

Atlantean heroes made stronger and cheaper, especially cheaper in favour.

Just a few off the top of my head!

The above is not a bad start, but you must make sure not to destroy what makes the various races and gods unique, or you will end up at AoE2.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

I wonder whether this is really necessary. Remember that in the past, several op gods were over-nerfed, so nerfing must be done with caution. It is a typical trait of the Atl race to be able to advance early, and that is not a bad thing in itself. It is the free military (valored oracles) and op turmas that pose the problem, IMHO, and Prometheus is the main issue. A Krush without Prometheus is unheard of. I think the valor power should be considerably nerfed (affecting less units), and oracle heroes should still be unable to fight (but perhaps get an even greater sight range in return). The Prometheus tech that makes heroes cheaper might also be subject to nerfing. The goal must be to weaken Prometheus enough so that getting the alternative god is a viable choice, depending on circumstances.

Should Atl then still be op early on, the number of free oracles could be reduced so that Atl must buy them and pay money and TC time for them or else live with crappy reconnaissance. Perhaps they could then keep their ability to fight. This would mean less free military when valored, and even when you advance very early, it is tricky to rush what you do not see.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Now that would remove the main thing that characterizes Isis and is therefore a bad idea, IMHO. She has already lost her discount on age advances in an earlier patch. Instead, I would rather suggest the following:

Nerf ancestors in one way or another. You could e.g. lower their attack or make them spawn at a slower rate. Another interesting approach could be to consider the ancestors "revived" for the duration of the GP, meaning that they count as human units and not as myth units. This would remove the op strategy to combine them with eclipse. Eclipse would still serve to make sure no counter-GP can be cast.

Further reduce the protection range of Isis monuments.

When you then nerf elephants for the whole Eggy race, Isis should no longer be op, but also not be overnerfed.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Turma are not given an automatic medium archer upgrade.

That one is really important. I see absolutely zero reason in Atl getting free medium archers. In fact, I believe that someone at ES made a mistake here. From the race design, Atl should be getting free medium cavalry, and I suppose it was planned that way, but some programmer misunderstood it or made a mistake and gave them free medium archers instead. Free medium cavalry might help greatly to put the currently pointless contarii to use.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Destroyers are given less hack armour.

I disagree. Destroyers are just fine as they are. They are infantry after all, and should not be identical in all respects to siege units. It should not be possible to fend off a bunch of destroyers using villagers. In infantry battles, destroyers lose against all mainline infantry pop- and cost-wise, even against the weak spearmen. All other races also have awesome inf counters that deal hack damage and rape destroyers bitterly.

No, a bunch of surprise destroyers should still have the ability to do their job. I like them as they are, and although I am no Atlantean, I have no problem dealing with them.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Flaming weapons only +35% attack.

Now that would be ridiculous. The god power would be worthless then. Remember that it is 100% now! We can talk about 80% or something, but 35% is a joke. Again, remember that slight advantages can cause significant cases of op-ness, which in turn means that even moderate nerfing can quickly lead to up-ness. Poseidon has been overnerfed before, and so have Set and Ra. All nerfing should be done with extreme care. Doing a too slight nerf is no problem, as it will still make the game better than it is today. But over-nerfing quickly leads to a worse state than what we have now. You can always do a second nerfing-round if after a month of gaining experience you find that a god is still too strong.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Thor dwarves have slightly less gathering at food and wood capabilites.

That would make Thor less unique. I do not think that it is a good thing. Honestly, Thor currently loses 1v1 to Isis, Oranos, Kronos, and Zeus. Probably Hades and Set as well. The only god against whom I really see Thor at an advantage in 1v1 is Poseidon. I do not think that nerfing Thor would be appropiate. Perhaps something could be done about Thor concerning water, but that goes for all Eggy races with their ridiculously cheap docks as well, especially since these can be built by fishing boats.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Atlantean heroes made stronger and cheaper, especially cheaper in favour.

I disagree. Atl' weakness against myth units is a trait that makes Atlantean special and should not be taken away. In return, they have their op regular units.

I would suggest Fanatics not getting any bonus against melee inf counters (like it is the case with myrmidons). At least fanatics should not be getting any bonus against TA, because Norse have no archers to resort to against them. Norse can make ballistas, but I think we all agree that this is not really the solution, because you cannot have slow ballistas everywhere where fanatics show up.

What I would also like to add is the most obvious thing, IMHO: Elephants -50 hp.

And finally: Make the Norse Axe of Muspell upgrade available as early as classical age. It is just too bitter that Atl gets an invincible unit in the form of the Stymphalian Bird when the Atl advances first. Researching such an upgrade in classical is expensive enough, but Norse should have that option. I mean, Heroic Fleet is available in classical age, too, and it is good that way.

---

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

I am pretty sure this was discussed before, and while Atties have the best early game economy because of no dropoints, they suck lategame, and this is evident through their lower gathering rate. This is why I think they need some kinda of eco balance, because they are too economically powerful in the early game, and too weak lategame IMHO. They don't even get God eco ups, except a favour one from Rhea. But I can see where you are coming from, because they do have a very strong army early up, and nerfing the army gets a complicated issue.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

I think that is fair because Isis saves alot form her discounts, every technology from the game. Surely just having dock, tower, town centre, midgol, barracks, temple and God technologies 10% cheaper is a heap. I don't like her eco ups and armoury ups being cheaper because it has already been done, by Thor and Gaia, and looking at it this way, Thor and Gaia loose that uniqueness.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Nice suggestion, but perhaps ancestor human units would be harder to counter, the good thing about ancestors is that heroes have a huge bonus vs them, making ancestors counterable if you do the right things. Now, if they were made human units, they might not be as easy to counter. Unless, around the lines you suggested, they were counted as human infantry units, and therefore could be countered by anti-infantry.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

This is what I was talking about before, they are awesome early game, but suck lategame, and with such a crappy eco, they have trouble making mass heroes lategame. (And if they do make heroes, a few microed slingers on those turma/arcus do the job). But, I see where you are coming from, lategame, you have a chance to beat Atlantean because of their weakness to a myth unit, and you must keep this, so they are possible to beat, as you can't beat them early game, let them have a weakness. However, if Atlanteans were made more beatable early game, than they wouldn't need such a weakness for us to beat them. Like weakening their op regular units. Overall, Atty is such a crappily made civ IMHO.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

I don't think fanatics are so much of a problem, remember, they only come out of a palace, and palaces are big, are normally your first target, and it is hard to fit 10 of them on your side of the map. Not to mention you will have seige and destroyers sharing the use of palaces as well. I think fanatics are good in a sense, because Atlanteans sorta make a comeback in mythic, after such a crappy heroic, but the fanatics are kinda of a dissapointment.

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-04-2006 @ 08:02 PM).]

Fans should at LEAST not get a bonus vs TA. I can't counter them. I remmeber one game I was even with an Oranos player the whole game, only to get my ass owned in mythic because I have no units to counter Fanatics. I won cause my ally and only cause of him

I think that is more of the problem of TA being really really crappy direct counters.

this may sound cruel (you have to consider I don't play Egyptian very much if any so plz don't flame me), but I think the fact their villagers are slow should be emphasized. It seems Egypt has little to no flaws, as does Greek, but Greek has less benefits, and to me that isn't "equal".

The only idea I came up with was totally diss the Pharaoh and have only Ra be able to empower with his priests... this WOULD make Ra a more likeable civ but perhaps put Isis and Set a little low on the totem pole.

I think Greeks need some serious help on water, also. Whenever I see "Mediterranean" or "Midgard" on the loading screen I want to kill something.

As for the Norse, I think they're fine.

It's the Atlanteans that need some serious rethinking, in my opinion. The above posts about Turmae and the economy weirdness just need totally rethunk (hehe great word) by the ESO people. I also think Gaia could use an eency-weency military benefit... like maybe harder-hitting Contarius and something odd like "free Levy Mainline Units". Then they'd have some purpose in this world, and I think Gaia would be more accepted.

[This message has been edited by Glunn11 (edited 07-04-2006 @ 09:11 PM).]

I think Egypt early economy is good though, it takes ages for a villiger to build a house compared to a Greek villiger, and plus Egypt has one less villiger than Greeks. I think the Early game economies are good,(except Atlantean)Its just that they get a little out of control lategame, like Midgols only costing 400 resources, while Greeks must pay 600 resources, and so the 10% + gathering doesn't really pay for this lategame. Not to mention Egyptians have lots of Economic God bonuses, Bast, Ptah, Hathor, Thoth and Osiris, which, correct me If I am wrong, gives them the best eco in the game. ( Osiris can give you two pharaos, and if you place them at 2 tc's where you have 10+ farms, you get +25% extra! Heaps. Though you would more rather have them at the front, it still seems an attractive bonus. In team games, you could also put your pharoas empower your market.

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-04-2006 @ 09:18 PM).]

There are many thing that comes to mind but one thing in particular. Egypt migdol units train waaaaaay to fast. Espically with that upgrade thoth gives.

~Mino~

OK the two civs that need it the most, of course, are Egypt and Atlantis. I figured something like this. With any luck ESO might just read this. W00T... oh and be sure to correct or modify anything.

EGYPT:
*Increase Migdol Stronghold cost; more gold!! (700 wouldn't bug me...)
*Make War Elephants counterable (I found that magical number was to reduce their HP by 75) by Podromos (by reducing it, three Podromos almost killed the elephant with the addition of Migdol fire).
*Another idea for Migdols would be to have three levels of upgrades. The first, normal level, would have units that are weaker than the ones we know. If you upgrade them to Medium, they become as strong as the ones we have right now. Upgrading them to Heavy same thing. This would make Egyptian Migdol units overall more expensive and make players work harder to get them.

ATLANTIS:
*The economy is really messed. To even it out, you need to weaken the early eco and strengthen the later eco. I think that citizens should originally be built to function as 2 regular villagers, not 3. Once you advance to Classical, they become 3 villagers.
*To further assist their late economy, I think Atlanteans need a fourth set of eco ups:
ARCHAIC:
Hand Axe, Pick Axe, Husbandry, Hunting Dogs

CLASSICAL:
Bow Saw, Shaft Mine, Plow

HEROIC:
Carpenters, Quarry, Irrigation, Flood Control

MYTHIC:
Lumber Company, Mass Mining, Fertilizer

*DISS THE FREE MEDIUM TURMA UPGRADE!!!!!!!!!!!
*For Kronos, the KRush could be weakened, since I think it is too strong and should be weakened to the level of a Loki Hersir Rush. I think the above economy things should take care of that.
*For Gaia, she definitely could use one small militaristic advantage, since this would make her more worth playing. My ideas include "Contarii are stronger", "Mainline units cheaper and faster to train", "Free Levy Mainline Units on Age Advancement"... I use Mainline considering I think they need to have a more prominent use in the game (notice most Atty units are pumped from Counter Barracks).

Anyways what do you guys think?

Heeey maan, great topic ..congratulations... I would suggest to give Ra a little more bonuses, maybe give hime the +3 pop of isis or cheaper elephants or something... Just to make sure he is not UP...

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

I am no Attie expert, but i r noob insists that Atl lategame economy is among the best in the game. And when I see how they spam palaces and fanatics despite what you said about them, he appears to be right.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

You must not make the mistake to judge a god by how her bonuses "look" in your eyes. In the real game, Isis is very strong, but this is mainly because she has the best Eggy minor god paths, because of op elephants, and because you cannot harm her with many god powers. Her strength edge to the other gods like Ra is not huge though. If you fix the three things that I just named, I do not believe that she will be op anymore. This automatically means that nerfing her econ bonuses on top of that would mean over-nerfing her.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Well, they should still remain a decent heroic age god power, and they are not that strong without eclipse. Remember that Hades shades also know no counters, and still they do not cause Hades to be op.

Personally, I would rather face human ancestors w/o eclipse than needing to have hersirs everywhere because I do not know where they will be cast, and right now anc/ecl + free sphinx can simply tear down your home TC even if you have two hersirs sitting there just in case provided you do not have masons or upgraded towers yet.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

They have no long-ranged siege lategame, but fanatics are awesome, and as explained before, I disagree about their weak lategame econ. (Gaia's lategame econ even beats Isis'!)

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

And they would be less unique. You are making a difference between early game and lategame concerning Attie weakness against MU. I consider that inappropiate. Attie are weak against MU in all ages. The only catch is that the op Prometheus compensates for that early on. Fix Prometheus, and you can fight Attie even in early game using MU. But then they will still remain a unique race that must - and can - be fought in a way different to the other races.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

As far as my experience goes, Atties have no problem spamming palaces all over the map. While you think twice before investing the money to secure a gold mine with a tower, Atl does not hesitate to drop a palace or two there. So much for their weak lategame econ.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

I think that TA are good inf counters. I only see two problems with them, both resulting from the Attie race not properly being integrated in the game:

TA get an extra-high bonus against hoplites, but they do not get that bonus against murmillos, although murmillos = hoplites (aside from a negligible 5 hp difference).

Myrmidons get no bonus against TA, but fanatics do. Fanatics not only counter TA, they also counter everything that you might be using as a meat shield for the TA. They even counter hersirs although hersirs count as heroes (admittedly with infantry-like traits). This is why Kang_the_Mad is right: Whatever you make as Norse, fanatics will counter it (ballistas being an arguable exception).

---

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Boost hetairoi a little bit. There's been a thread about this about 4 pages long which got locked in the end, but I don't seem to find it...

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Oh please she would not be overnerfed.

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

The hero system for Atlanteans is crap. You just said that Promethues early game compensates, and than you say there is no differnce early game and lategame... Anyway, your uniqueness argument is really silly, because Atlanteans are unique because they are meant to make heroes anytime they want, and how many they want straight away, but because of such expensiveness, the cant't be made that easy! Especially on the favour bit, if you want to make myth units, you will barely get heroes out and vice versa. It isn't meant to work like that. However, you want a way so that you can beat them easily with no sweat, thinking a stuff up in the game is their uniqueness.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

I'll let you reply to this one:

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Really? Gaia has cheaper caravans, fishing ships and cheaper economic techs, that is 3 bonuses. I am confident that Isis having 10% cheaper all techs surpasses how much Gaia will save. Gaia's next problem is she has no economic bonus from her gods, (bar the favour ones), While Isis gets Bast's two techs, she gets Hathor's cheaper buildings, and she gets Thoth's tech. I cannot see how Gaia has a better eco than Isis. I would also imagine that Prosperity > Gaia trees helping towards your eco. Gaia's eco suffers from having to use citizens IMHO.

Here is why your supposed uber eco late game doens't seem to work out:

Unit Type Wood Gold Herd Wild Farm

Greek Villager 1.08 .91 .73 .73 .69
Egypt Laborer .98 .82 .65 .65 .63
Empowered Egypt Laborer 1.18 .98 .78 .78 .76
Norse Gatherer 1.08 .90 .73 .73 .69
Norse Dwarf .80 1.09 .58 .58 .53
Thor Dwarf 1.00 1.09 .73 .73 .66
Atlantean Citizen 2.56 2.13 1.64 1.85 1.52

Unit Type Wood Gold Herd Wild Farm

Citizens are mean to be 3 vills with 3 pop, but they are only worth 2.5! They are gold in the early ages because the no drop off is very helpful, but once other vills start getting the eco ups, making sure they go to the drop off not very often, this bonus is next to useless.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Perhaps those Atlanteans where alot better than you? Especially when they can afford 2 palaces with no hassle and you struggle to make a tower.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Why not make ballistas than? It does not seem Contarii will be very effective considering how many people will say they are crap. And, if the Atlantean has all 10 palaces up on the map, with a decent supply of seige, destroyers and fanatics coming out from them with no problem, surely you can bring out a few ballistas. Add massed Firegiants and GG.

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-05-2006 @ 07:15 AM).]

You know what I think... I think atty villagers need to act as 1 villager just like everyone else, reduce the pop down to one. Since they are "mobile drop sites", they should theoretically cost 50 food, 50 wood. However, this is a little spendy for just one citizen, so I think the wood cost could be lowered.

I think it's the 3-citizen thing that really messes their eco up. If ESO totally nerfed it and just kept them as "villagers with their own dropsites", I think they'd work out better.

"I am no Attie expert, but i r noob insists that Atl lategame economy is among the best in the game. And when I see how they spam palaces and fanatics despite what you said about them, he appears to be right."

Huh? Atties can get the quivilent of 75 villies. Norse can get 120 with dwarves and gatherers and don't have slower build rate like eggy. They have the best late game economy

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Hello? You don't even seem to attempt to view my words in the context in which I clearly put them. I pointed out in detail that Prometheus is op, which is a major reason why Oranos and Kronos, but not Gaia are op. The Atlantean weakness against myth units is supposed to be there, and because Prometheus compensates for this at least in classical age, he is op and messes up the game balance. He is the problem, not citizen gathering speed or something.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

No innate difference in the Atlantean race. Fixing Prometheus would make sure that this is also the case in real games, restoring balance with regard to their strong regular troops.

You are demanding that Atl heroes are reduced in cost. That would mean that MU become inefficient against Atl. Normally, you use MU against your opponent in areas where he has no heroes. But if their heroes are cheap enough, then Atl have heroes everywhere: They simply generate the needed amount right in the battle where they need them. The Atl race would become even cheaper to play: They never ever need to care about how many heroes they will need. Heroes are less efficient pop-wise for all races but Greek, and Atl can simply do without them until they need them right in the battle, where they simply click on the "heroize" button and get exactly the amount of heroes that they need against the MU that they are facing.

You are demanding to reduce Atl regular troops in firepower (making them more like the other races) and less vulnerable to MU (again making them more like the other races). I am saying that this neither good nor necessary. Atl just need to function the way they were designed: Awesome regular troops but in return very vulnerable to myth because their heroes cost a fortune in gold and silver. Prometheus is what messes up this system because with him, Atl have awesome regular troops and are proof against myth. And that is the only thing that needs to be fixed.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Really. Ask any expert player about the quality of Gaia economy, especially lategame, and you will know. i r noob is only one of them, and he does not even restrict that to Gaia. All your arguments sound nice and everything, but the reality on the battlefield is a different one.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Not really...

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Do you have the faintest idea how many ballistas it would take to effectively fight fanatics... and fire giants are quite ineffective against fanatic heroes (costs him a mouse click as discussed above since Atl lategame econ is that good). And of course you have super-fast ballistas that you can easily have everywhere where his fanatics attack you on the map... Sure ballistas are helpful. But they never compensate for the uncounterability of fanatics. Also remember that ballistas have a minimum range, so the fanatics can simply attack them. Meat shield for the ballistas? Whatever you plan on using as Norse, the fanatics will get +100% against it.

Quoted from Glunn11:

Yes. And they should have the same troops like everything else, and the same buildings like another race, and the same GPs... congrats, you have just reduced Atl to a cheap copy of another vanilla race.

There is no point in removing the unique traits of a race if you hope this game to remain as colorful as it is. You need to consider how you can balance out these special traits against those of the other races. Removing them is the worst approach.

Quoted from Kang_the_Mad:

Have you ever tried to play with 120 dwarves and gatherers and only 40 pop left for your military (assuming 3 fortified TCs for both players = 160 pop total)? I am keen on learning how you plan on defeating a 85 pop Atl army with that! You will be swimming in resources, but have no chance to spend them (except through casting ragnarok), and since the stronger army has the far lesser losses, the Atl army will wipe out your paltry force at near zero casualties.

In a real game, it matters little how many vills you could theoretically make. More important is how many make sense. And remember that Atl is free to have caravans on top of their 75 pop citizens, so even on a land map, you have 75 pop for food and wood citizens only in lategame. That is more than enough.

What I'm saying is you don't get ALL the villies and dwarves at once. Ya gots ta boom. I usually have 4 fortified TCs. Have Dwarf villie o autoque and build longhousses and get troops. And when I hit pop limit, bring in the improvements. Then I attack where the enemy is weak, steal his TC, then I get more troops and more villies. When you have 5 fortifeied TCs you can still have a great economy and military

OK my opinions have been changed by reading your guys's comments.
So first of all, regarding free med. turmae, diss it.

EDIT: I'm revamping this thread since I'm referring to it in later threads.

Selene (goddess of the night):
Focus: Villagers
Myth Unit- Necromancer (COST: 150 gold, 12 favor)
Pierce Damage: 10
Hack Armor: 50%
Pierce Armor: 50%
HP: 250
Special Attack: Makes a unit's LOS drop to 1 (or whatever the equivalent of a pig is)

GP: "Blue Moon" (2 uses)
Cast on any enemy's town center to make their villagers work 50% slower for 1 minute.

Techs-
"Harvest Moon" - citizens farm faster
"Shields of Darkness" - Murmillo have more pierce armor

[This message has been edited by Glunn11 (edited 07-11-2006 @ 11:37 AM).]

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

Well, I thought in the game Greece were meant to have the strongest units, but oh well. IMHO the Atlantean military needs to be weakened, murmillo and turma are far too good a combo early game vs Greeks, and mass katapeltes are the only cost-efficient unit at countering cavalry until very much later in the game, and thesea re available inthe classical age! Not to mention cherioballista being good counters as well. (Yes, if you keep the cherioballista guarded, 4/5 of them is not too much to ask for, and do their job well). Anyway, Atlanteans would be very crappy if you weakened the way Prometheus ups their heroes, because every hoplite/mino rush would work, every classical myth unit rush you can name, and their heroes are too costly, costing another single unit to upgrade, you'll find they will die straight away. Even their strong regular units cannot take on myth unit, and by heroizing them, they become immediate targets, that were very costly in the first place. I would suggest you play Atlantean and try using their awesome heroes, but make sure you advance through Leto, and see how easy myth unit countering is. Anyway, if Atlanteans are so strong, I suggest you play them, try use your, mass 'fanatics, destroyers, seige' tactics, and laugh as the opponent has not got a tower up at his gold mine, while you are happily spamming palaces.

I am also intersted in how the Atantean shall mass fanatic heroes. But they have uber eco, according to the experts, and I will leave it at that, even though TTK_GeneralNoob is argueing with more logic than I am.

Here it is all again:

Unit Type Wood Gold Herd Wild Farm

Greek Villager 1.08 .91 .73 .73 .69
Egypt Laborer .98 .82 .65 .65 .63
Empowered Egypt Laborer 1.18 .98 .78 .78 .76
Norse Gatherer 1.08 .90 .73 .73 .69
Norse Dwarf .80 1.09 .58 .58 .53
Thor Dwarf 1.00 1.09 .73 .73 .66
Atlantean Citizen 2.56 2.13 1.64 1.85 1.52

Unit Type Wood Gold Herd Wild Farm

Citizens are mean to be 3 vills with 3 pop, but they are only worth 2.5! They are gold in the early ages because the no drop off is very helpful, but once other vills start getting the eco ups, making sure they go to the drop off not very often, this bonus is next to useless.

Not to mention, that they only can make 75 vill worth. So, explain to me, with your understanding from the experts, of course, with logic, how Atlanteans have an uber eco lategame. .

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Fantatics do not come until mythic, and the fanatic heroes should be targeted by your ballista, making sure he spends huge resources on fanatic heroes, and than they die instantly. Fire giants are the way, and even they take a while to get killed by the heroes. So, now that you said that ballistas are effective verse them, and I said use a fire giant meatshield, than you have your answer. The pleasure is mine . All of smart @ss aside, unless the Atlantean had outplayed you earlier, that might be the only reason he has a good flow of fanatics out, he must get out building killers at the same time, all from the palace as well.

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-05-2006 @ 08:11 PM).]

I think that the Heroic gods need redone in addition. At least one needs to have more economic help. To make this fair, fanatics should lose their bonus vs. TA. The god that seems "least appealing" is probably Hyperion, so in addition to his current improvements, I think something like "Pickaxe of Heroes" to make citizens gather gold faster would be great.

^ Good idea, but make it that the hero citizens collect everything 10% faster, because at the moment they don't collect enough to warrant 4 population, as the increase is only 10% from a 3 pop citizen, (or around that). I think Hyporion needs to have 2 chaos, but each of these 2 affect 7 units. The only time 4 chaosed units is useful is when you use them on elephants, or on water battles. His myth units are also lacking in usefullness.

@ DeathAndPain, I apologise for the noobness of my ways, Isis hunt delete vs Oranos/Kronos is unstoppable, and uber lame, HUNT DELETE OBELISK rox my sox. I mean, I am no lamer, and hunt delete sucks. Yes... (Lol it was a friend I did it to in advanced, it works well, but only vs Atlantean, and the obelisk costs more than 3 gold wall, so not as effective).

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-06-2006 @ 04:19 AM).]

Why not make Hyperion the economic minor god? Sure, his myth units and GP aren't too good, but the improvements should make up for it (sounds like Bast. If only her improvements weren't glitched...):

Pickaxe of Piety - Citizens gather gold faster
Saw of Strength - Citizens gather wood faster
Brave Butchers - Citizens gather from herdables faster

Diss Heroic Renewal, as this would make it slightly unfair to have a god that was an economy king along with a military improvement.
Considering the Gaia-exclusive Nightalia, she shouldn't hurt too badly from this (see thread 18).

Also, as to what ^ said, make Citizen Heroes more effective in general (10% increase sounds good).
=================================
As for Egypt, I find it hard to nerf them. Ideas for Egypt!

[This message has been edited by Glunn11 (edited 07-07-2006 @ 02:04 PM).]

well imo those heroic calvery of the alt are one of the oped things oranos has, he already has a speed bonus and with secret of poseidon those things get almost 8 speed. and i know with all armor ups and heroized they get 20 hack.

^ But at 4 pop and a ton of resources for the techs and making them hero's, they're hard to afford in Heroic, and in Mythic I'd lean toward seige myself.

well if u also get the upgrade that lets the heroized ones own buildings. plus look how many people lame isis elles and there pop sux but i do understand there almost unstoppable.

Quoted from TTK_GenberalNoob:

Said who? They used to have in vanilla, but noone ever said that they were also supposed to have them in TT.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Don't you see the contradiction in your own words? First you say that Atl are all op, and then you say that nerfing a single of their subgods would cause them to be all crappy. (BTW, this means that Gaia would have to be crappy as she is, because she does not get Prometheus. I consider that a rumor, as Gaia is a good god, only that she stands in the shadow of op Oranos and Kronos.) The solution is obvious: Nerf Prometheus, but not to an extent that the whole Atl race becomes crappy! Nerf him, but do not overnerf him. Find the healthy middle! Make sure that by using myth units against Atl you can compensate for having the weaker human units, but on the other hand keep Atl strong enough so that their good regular troops compensate for their anti-MU-weakness. It is all a matter of the extent of the nerfing, but Prometheus is the obvious key to getting them balanced. Along with perhaps giving Atl less free oracles.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

You appear to believe that fanatics have crappy pierce armor. You are wrong. And anyway, do you think that a few towers of yours compensates for the fact that the enemy has a unit that none of your units can counter effectively? Do you plan on winning the game with buildings alone?

Every unit should be counterable pop-wise and cost-wise for every race. That is the backbone of the rock/paper/scissors system that makes RTS games so much fun. An uncounterable unit always means an imbalance (except if limited in number as severely as Greek heroes).

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

You keep arguing based on sheer theory. This is useless when the actual game contradicts you.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

You forgot to read what I mentioned before: In late game, you have your trading route, so that's 75 pop for food and wood alone. That is ample! You want to have pop left for an army after all.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Normally, they are known as fanatics, but I agree that "fantastics" also describes them pretty well.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

...which is still en route to the battlefield at a very slow speed while the fanatics are already eradicating your army from the face of the world.

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

Champion fanatics have 162 hp (if I have calculated it properly) with a solid 25% base pierce armor, not to mention the armory upgrades that the Attie will certainly have by mythic age. Your ballistas have 9 pierce damage, shooting 4 bolts but with horrible accuracy, and upgrade options for the ballista are limited to Burning Pitch and Engineers. Do you really think that such ballistas will cause the fanatics to "die immediately"? Think again!

Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob:

In mythic age, his resources should easily allow him to click a button, and then your awesome (and expensive) fire giant meat shield is countered by fanatic heroes as well, causing your fg to do only 25% damage against the fanatics which rip through them like nothing. Great solution. Outstanding. As I said before, none of your units can really counter fanatics effectively. Ballistas can at least fight them with decent effectiveness, but are no replacement for a real counter when the enemy is massing them. Especially since you fail to find a proper meat shield in your arsenal.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Very unique stuff there.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

It would help if we didnt cut out sentences to manipulate the meaning.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

I think you have mistunderstood this, or maybe you have put in the wrong quote to reply.

This is what you said on page one:

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Now, they are hopelessly crap. Talk about contradiction.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Well, what is the use of having so much pop space, if you cannot even afford an army! So, Atlantean vills are worth 2.5 vills, for 3 pop. A Greek/Norse player could have 75 vills, have the same amount of army, and have a bigger eco! Or, they could they could get 63 vills, and collect at the same rate, and have an even bigger army! I do not see much benefits...

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Well if you micro the ballistas on a handful of fanatic heroes that are endangering your fire giants, they should die quite quickly.

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Theory yes, that makes sense. Now, do explain how Atlantean's have the best eco in the game.
_{In other words, stop avoiding the question and tell me! Please, I would like to be enlightened ^_^.}

Quoted from DeathAndPain :

Massed fanatics? Anyway, you stated that Atlanteans have a weakness verse myth units in the later ages earlier, but suddenly, in your little scenario, they have no problem getting rid of myth units. (Also, Fanatic Heroes cost more than Fire Giants).

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-07-2006 @ 06:35 AM).]

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

How is it sheer theory?

But I agree with the majority. Atty are very strong. They need nerfing, and yes, nerfing prometheus would solve this. Atty vs greek is a very hard match up and not to mention the atty will always be 10+ pop ahead of you until your capped

I dont think there should be free levy for gaia but I think it should be much cheaper

Or maybe not make it free or cheap/ make it train faster though

wut do i no im just a noob

ya I got rid of the levy idea... instead look at my new ideas on replies 18 and 22
And I have an idea to nerf Egypt (particularly Isis) a bit. Since Isis is already economic, I think she could live without Bast. This would make the ancestors/eclipse thing that is considered "OP" by some not possible. Switch around the Classical Minor Gods like so:

RA: ANUBIS or BAST?
ISIS: PTAH or ANUBIS?
SET: BAST or PTAH?

Set would then be able to Ancestors/Eclipse, and that's fine with me considering how ESO nerfed him quite a bit.
He could use a good A+E to make him slightly scary again.

What do you guys think?

Also, would you guys be interested in a supremacy-replica scenario with triggers that add these new equalization changes in? We could see how equal they actually make the game.

[This message has been edited by Glunn11 (edited 07-07-2006 @ 02:28 PM).]