Atlaneans Too Overpowered: My Assess of All Civs - Age of Mythology Heaven Forums

Topic Subject: Atlaneans Too Overpowered: My Assess of All Civs

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Devil_Exile
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 04:56 AM EDT (US)

Okay, I have actually used almost every respective civ. I favor Ra.
I found that the Atlanteans were the easiest civ overall. I found this as their Citizens & Oracles were so much easier to control than other civs. Citizens get butchered as being too slow, yet they have much better hitpoints, collect with the speed of three villagers, and can even be heroized to increase this gather rate and damage against Myth Units. Citizens don�t even need a resource drop off point (eg. granary, storehouse, lumber camp etc.). Their Oracles are brilliant scouts. Unlike other scouts, you just leave them and they give line-of-sight, and a pretty big one at that, which leaves you to focus on other things. Sending an Oracle to an enemy base can be a smart move as they have very large LOS and if they don�t get detected by your opponent, you can spy on what he�s doing. So overall I think, that the Atlanteans are slightly too overpowered. Firstly they have an easy time at the beginning at the game, because they don�t have to build anything except manors and a temple and you basically get 2 with your starting resources and the 1 you begin with, although the 125 food, 25 wood may sound steep, with 3 Citizens, you can produce one Citizen constantly from your TC and not worry bout having enough resources due to the collection rate.
Something else about the Atlanteans also amazed me. Their Myth Units. A Promethean cost a mere 80 gold and 10 favor, and Automaton 90 gold, 8 favor. The Caladria is slightly more expensive, but still cheap overall at 100 wood, 25 gold, 10 favor. They�re even more cheaper with Kronos. Other Civs must pay more for their Myth Units. The Egyptian Wadjet cost 150 wood, 15 favor, Anubite 100 food 15 favor. The Norse 200 food, 14 favor for their Valkryie, 175 gold, 15 favor for the Einharjar and 150 wood, 15 favor for a Troll. The Greeks pay 200 wood, 15 favor for a Centaur, 200 food, 16 favor for a Minotaur and 250 food and 22 favor for the Cyclops. Compared to other Classical Myth units, the Atlanteans have an easier time here too. And the popular Turma cost a mere 50 wood and 45 gold yet they possess superior speed and hitpoints to a Slinger.
I found that the Egyptians are very difficult to use as they require the Pharaoh to empower and their scout (priests) must spend to get LOS, though this is permanent, which is great. Priests move too slowly for a decent scout. The Egyptians also gather far slower than other civs so managing the Pharaoh on a particular resource may prove frustrating. The Egyptians also rely heavy on micromanagement and have no cavalry in the Classical. They have Slingers, Axemen & Spearmen which must be micromanaged correctly to win a battle.

I�m tired so I�ll post the rest later, but overall I think the Atlanteans are far too overpowered and that Newcomers should not attempt Egyptians until more experienced.

Author

Replies:

DeathAndPain
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 07:25 AM EDT (US) 1 / 44

The fact that Atlantean is op has been known for years, so you are stating the obvious.

The reasons that you are giving are not convincing nonetheless, because you are not properly comparing to what the other civs can come up with. You just list the advantages of the Atlantean race and deduct that they are op. For instance, you name the great sight range of the oracle but neglect to mention that it must stand still for quite some time to obtain it, while the scouts of the other races can just move across the territory and uncloak it en-route (even using waypoints if they like) while you as the oracle owner have to remember your oracles all the time and give them a new move order manually when they have scouted a certain spot. Your oracles also cost you population space just for scouting, while Eggy obelisks do the same without blocking valuable pop.

Again, I am not saying that Atl is not op. I am just saying that your argumentation fails to explain why. This is a mistake that is seen frequently on the forums: People just focus on one particular advantage and deduct overpoweredness without mentioning that the other races and gods have strengths of their own.

Atlantean myth units may be cheap, but they are also considerably weaker than those of all other races. For instance, a valkyrie without any upgrades is much faster than a Promethean and can even heal other units. Still she defeats the Promethean including both offsprings in combat. No doubt which unit is better.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Anastasoulis
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 10:45 AM EDT (US) 2 / 44

There's some recs that I really enjoyed watching, look for them from a guy with the nick: projectrapeattie something. I tell you, his Loki made all Atties seem like defenseless virgins... ha ha ha

regards

the Elder
"imagination is more important than knowledge."
Albert Einstein

BrightBlueEyes
Banned

posted 15 March 2007 01:52 PM EDT (US) 3 / 44

Quote:

defenseless virgins...

Tell me more.

Also, citizens dont gather as fast as 3 vills. it's 2.5. Plus atty lategame is worst in the game due to their crappy eco disadvantage. they get less vills overall than all other civs. Civs such as eggy with their 90 vills, pharoah/priest empowerment, and way more myth techs affecting eco own atty in lategame. Their early game, however is OP.

Anastasoulis
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 02:14 PM EDT (US) 4 / 44

hey BrightBlueEyes, which part you want me to tell you about, the Atties facing projectrapeattie, or the virgins, cause for the 2nd there's lots of free sites on the Internet that you can watch. Hmmm, you must be below 18 years old I guess...

As for the Attie stats, you're absolutely right, that's why is imperative that you harass them asap, cause molesting (did you like the word?) just 1 of their citizens, is like stoping 3 from work...

Hell, if I knew that such graphic-poetic phrases would entertain the younger ones in here, I'd use them more often to provide some fun...

take care

the Elder
"imagination is more important than knowledge."
Albert Einstein

WNxMythos
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 02:26 PM EDT (US) 5 / 44

you know, i never knew eggy could get 90 vills, i have been lied to all this time 11.

Here's a llama, there's a llama, and another little llama
Fuzzy llama, funny llama, llama llama, duck
Llama llama, cheesecake, llama, tablet, brick, potato

thereckerdbraikr
Banned

posted 15 March 2007 02:30 PM EDT (US) 6 / 44

in my opinion, the only goo unit that atty has after classical is the destroyer, but even then they take 3 pop

I find that atty can just get a titan out so easily, and easily outeco you, even with less econ management and upgrades

even if you fight of thier original attacks, they could just do turma raids on your econ while they turtle to mythic and get titan by 20-

they can even let you have 4v2 tc, as for they can get it back easily, with implode/tart. gate

and implode really screws you over, if your able to manage your econ from not dieing completely, you may just get to heroic by the time that they are in mythic, which means most of your army gets sucked in to hell

Once the titan is dead though, if the damage is not too awful, then the atty is screwed, of course, unless by thier nature they decided to build 20 walls and a wonder.

Atty is OP, but not because of thier units, only becuase they can advance early in archaic with good econ (its all about the up) and because they can advance to the other ages faster and abuse thier reusable god powers and get a titan while you have map control and bs like that

Anastasoulis
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 03:11 PM EDT (US) 7 / 44

sorry thereckerdbraikr,
IMO, the destroyer is a slow anti-building unit really and not much else, why you forget the fanatic?
True, they have an advantage early on, but as the game progresses, the tables are turned on them.
I play Thor, and if I can survive the Krush-rush, then the odds even out as things evolve.
Turma raids? walled off spots and RC raids.
Tartarian gate? I usually have approx 10 farms to each of my 3 TCs, so that's 10 vils attacking that gate and the monsters come after them and not my precious troops, and the gate goes down fast if it's next to a TC of mine. Of course, every time used against me, it was as a distraction to buy him time to build his Titan.
Implode next to a TC, I press R and all vills hide inside buildings, so very little actual damage to my buildings. If used in the open, I usually have the resources to replace my losses.
They do go for a Titan fast, and will probably get it out in time true (if I don't invade their base and cast Frost on their army, while I rape their vils and Titan gate). But then, when their Titan comes, Ragnarok and Flaming Weapons and the Titan dies fast.
Nope, 4vs2 TC is too much to handle for any civ.
You know which power I fear, the one that teleports all their combat units to their chosen location. Cause, they can strike with full force and get 1 TC + cripple 1/3 of my eco, and they can do this twice.

With your last conclusion I totally agree, and in fact it's their best strat to build full army of heroes, Titan, Mirror Towers and all their paraphernalia, and just sit it out waiting for the countdown to end.

regards

the Elder
"imagination is more important than knowledge."
Albert Einstein

BrightBlueEyes
Banned

posted 15 March 2007 04:19 PM EDT (US) 8 / 44

actually, I am dead on 18 years old xD

Scamander
Mortal

posted 15 March 2007 04:35 PM EDT (US) 9 / 44

Quote:

they can even let you have 4v2 tc, as for they can get it back easily, with implode/tart. gate

lol? Joke?

The Atlanteans are certainly not OP. How can they be OP if they contain the dead worst god: Gaia.

If you get lategame, 4v2 TC (you having 4 them 2, its still not over. Not only because of your weaker eco, but because you dont have long range seige. Without a Catapult, Ballista, Petroboli, you cant do anything after 20 min. Your Only seige unit is the Titan, and if he dies just resign.

In addition you dont have any of the necessary lame BS like Thoth Ele Spam, FG/Ballista, Collo Spam, Merc Spam, Rag/FW...

Once the game goes late its gg.

Thats why Attie v. Attie are the most fun Atlantean games because you dont have to worry about the clock.

Shanks13
Rogue Agent

posted 15 March 2007 10:32 PM EDT (US) 10 / 44

Atlantean weakness=lack of ranged siege. By the time the siphons get in range, they are screwed. Destroyers are slow, and easily pulled into battle before reaching their intended target. Even behemoths don't cut the bill, infantry can hold them up and prevent them from achieving their goal. Atlanteans are strongest in the classical age, and unless they determine the game there, they will likely lose. Atlantean villagers are also easier to raid, they may have more hit points, but if you pincer motion them, they are screwed.

DeathAndPain
Mortal

posted 16 March 2007 03:13 AM EDT (US) 11 / 44

Quoted from BrightBlueEyes:

Also, citizens dont gather as fast as 3 vills. it's 2.5.

But they do not need to return their stuff to any drop site, so it is effectively 3. Actually they even get their resources immediately, without having to wait for any dropoff. Important in the early ages.

Quoted from BrightBlueEyes:

Plus atty lategame is worst in the game due to their crappy eco disadvantage. they get less vills overall than all other civs.

Attie lategame econ is awesome. I r n00b agrees on that. How many vills do you plan on having on food and wood, with your lategame gold income completely covered by caravans? You also can add some citizen heroes if you actually want to cover more pop with econ units.

Quoted from BrightBlueEyes:

Their early game, however is OP.

...meaing that often enough, they can either end it there or gain a substantial advantage that they can nurse into the lategame.

Quoted from thereckerdbraikr:

Once the titan is dead though, if the damage is not too awful, then the atty is screwed, of course

I do not believe in that "of course". Attie's main lategame weakness is the lack of ranged siege (I mean really ranged, not what siphons can come up with). But the fanatic is an awesome unit, despite its high pop usage, and Attie has the power to spam enough palaces for its production. A combination of fanatics and turmas is very hard to beat even in mythic age. Aside from slow and clumsy ballistas, Norse has no counter to fanatics at all. TA come closest to being one, but they are countered by the fanatic as well. Hell, fanatics can even be heroized to counter myth if need be! Depending on the enemy race, this combo can be further finetuned, e.g. by adding arcusses.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Heroic Tradition
Mortal

posted 16 March 2007 09:21 AM EDT (US) 12 / 44

I've actually done several tests regarding resource gathering with all the races, save Gaia and Oranos which i still plan to look into...what i've found is that Atlantean vills have the lowest resource gather rate per pop per minute in relation to all other races. Save possible the Gaia forest tree for wood (have yet to test that one). Also seems that Egypt vills are weaker than Greek unless empowered or enhanced by Bast or Thoth and Norse vills are weaker hunters unless by Odin or Thor. Thor's dwarves also seem to be quite on par with his vills and easily surpass them in gold which was obvious anyway since dwarves are made for gold. Though Loki and Odin dwarves suck big time with anything but gold. These tests i've done were using all standard upgrades and comparing them in turn to the same with the Gods' upgrades. Atlanteans may get resources immediately (and since they're so slow thank the gods) but they don't gather it as quickly and Atlantean civs have very few eco upgrades. Atlantean citizen heroes sport even worse resource per pop numbers than normal citizens.

For example i had 4 FUed Atlantean Cits hunting elk, in one minute gathered about 40 food per pop. I did the same with 12 Thor dwarves - turned in about 48 food per pop. Greek vills the same turned in about 44-45 food per pop, and so on etc. Also it seems Odin's gatherers are teh most l33t3st hunters in the game. Drop sites really aren't a big deal anyway, you spend 1, maybe 2 seconds walking to it, dropping off and walking back to gather again unless your drop site is a long ass way away, and you do this every handful of 30 which is 1.5-2 times every minute. Or once a minute if you're gathering berries because berries suck.

Atlanteans can make unlimited heroes that are stronger overall than Hersir or Priests...but much more expensive

Turma probably is the best anti-archer

Murmillo can be just as strong as hoplites in general

Katapeltes might be best vs cav but have little other use and their job might as well be done by the more universal effective murmillo

Cheiroballista does beautiful damage vs infantry but without a meat shield is...dead meat (oh a pun, jubilations!)

Arcus is awesomest archer except for Chariot

Contarius are fast with a high attack but not very robust. probably be defeated in combat with any other cav save Raiders, since Hippikons have superior HP and similar attack. Podromos and Camels counter other cav and Jarls have almost double the HP.

Fanatics...i have no complaints, awesome.

Destroyers too, but their effectiveness vs soldiers is suspect, and tend to be weak against all but archers.

Fire Siphon does great damage but the Atlanteans have no long range seige bombardment ability

However many of the Atlantean myths are quite useful. Prometheans and Automatons may be both cheap and useful..but Bull Minotaurs are only 150 food and like 14-ish favor and are way more beast. Plus Anubites are only 100 food and are equally as good as the afore mentioned Atlantean myths. Caladria i believe are a tad expensive for a scouting healer.

That's my 345,453,453 cents

The middle ages were a time when amebic dysentary was considered the good kind of dysentary

[This message has been edited by Heroic Tradition (edited 03-16-2007 @ 09:24 AM).]

AmazingFerret
Mortal

posted 16 March 2007 10:53 AM EDT (US) 13 / 44

Well i'm making a guide about Resource gathering.

so all the gathering rate answers will be answered in my guide.

[This message has been edited by AmazingFerret (edited 03-16-2007 @ 10:54 AM).]

Shanks13
Rogue Agent

posted 16 March 2007 03:21 PM EDT (US) 14 / 44

A gathering rates guide will be nice. May allow some of us to fine-tune build orders and whatnot.

Pardinuz
Mortal

posted 16 March 2007 03:45 PM EDT (US) 15 / 44

All fake... they dont gather tree times faster, you can't compare their myth units to any other, they are cheaper but a automaton can't match a sphynx for example. If the game goes myth it's all over for them.

Shanks13
Rogue Agent

posted 16 March 2007 03:51 PM EDT (US) 16 / 44

If the game goes mythic, and it is still a back and forth fight, one would want to Atlas if possible unless trying for a titan w/Hekate. And Helios is a good choice if you need a little siege help, though it won't win the war. And Atties do gather almost 3x faster, when you put all of it together. That is why their score is so much higher in the beginning, the don't have to spend stuff on gather buildings and have no walk time. Prommies are the only semi-good classical mu, the others go like paper to heroes. If you know what you are doing, caladria are very helpful, but cannot fight. The stymphalian bird is an amazing mu, two of them take out villies I think, and some military, especially norse. Behemoths leave a little to be desired, and satyrs don't stand up very well. Heka-gigantes and Argus are both very good myth units, the lampade is when manuevered correctly. Just try to go into mythic winning.

TITANOMACHY07
Mortal

posted 16 March 2007 04:36 PM EDT (US) 17 / 44

shanks...i raced against a school named shanks yesterday in track..fast as heck...anyways...

Atty villagers goods and bads balance eachother out. while they collect faster and have mobile drop sites, they take much longer to make,and as posted before, are very slow moving. their building rate is lower then other civs, and they are expensive to make, so its not a good idea to lose them. the slower moving and longer making make it hard for attie players to build foward, versus eggys or the building infantry of the norse. plus they have no calvary until heroic. if i ever play against an atty and im not one, then i go FH to defend myself better.

and yeah fire siphohns are good..if u dont have to go around anything.

Heroic Tradition
Mortal

posted 16 March 2007 09:31 PM EDT (US) 18 / 44

Like most of AoM, Atlantean villagers being 3x faster than other vills is a myth. Pop for pop, fully upgraded, they hunt slower than Greek, empowered Egypt, Thor, and Odin. Herding is slower, gathering is slower, everything is slower. They do it fast enough for the sake of their economic needs, but it's still slower. Especially when the other races' mythological upgrades are taken into effect. Although their cost 3 times resources and 3 times pop, they don't do 3 times the work. And like was said just before me, building with them is tedious compared to others.

The middle ages were a time when amebic dysentary was considered the good kind of dysentary

MagmaLord
Mortal
(id: darkdude)

posted 17 March 2007 04:55 PM EDT (US) 19 / 44

They train about a couple of seconds slower if you use 1:2.5 ratio, and actually a few seconds faster if you use 1:3 ratio. Anyways their micro-saving time is well worth the pop ineffectiveness. And the no drop off like DaP said also make up for it.

Shanks13
Rogue Agent

posted 17 March 2007 11:03 PM EDT (US) 20 / 44

So basically it's just one of those things you accept, don't try to understand, and move on.

Sandman2749
Mortal

posted 18 March 2007 01:10 AM EDT (US) 21 / 44

Then again, having a gatherer like that can be a disadvantage as well.

- every time one of these suckers is idle for a second, it's like 2.5 seconds for other civs

- if you get raided, it's actually easier for the enemy. They aren't chasing down a bunch of units - it's actual 2.5X less (roughly)

- every task is done faster but is putting one Atty to build a manor is like sending 2.5 greeks. Sometimes you just want to send 1 pop worth to build houses but you don't have that option with atty

Just some small stuff to consider into the equation.

king_of_ithica
Mortal

posted 18 March 2007 12:06 PM EDT (US) 22 / 44

I think they're all balanced out. Atty has good villies, decent humans, and is well rounded. Greek has good units, favor controal, and the best heroes. Eggy has empower, MS units, and free/cheap buildings. Norse has infantry build, "free" favor, and dwarves. So it just about balances out.

MagmaLord
Mortal
(id: darkdude)

posted 18 March 2007 12:39 PM EDT (US) 23 / 44

Quote:

Then again, having a gatherer like that can be a disadvantage as well.

- every time one of these suckers is idle for a second, it's like 2.5 seconds for other civs

- if you get raided, it's actually easier for the enemy. They aren't chasing down a bunch of units - it's actual 2.5X less (roughly)

- every task is done faster but is putting one Atty to build a manor is like sending 2.5 greeks. Sometimes you just want to send 1 pop worth to build houses but you don't have that option with atty

Just some small stuff to consider into the equation.

You want to know how much time it takes for one villager to build your starting greek production buildings? Sure you'll have a good stash of resources, but you won't spend it all before the enemy kills you.

About the raiding thing - they'll pop into 1000 HP manors and wait for help. Better than having all your gold villagers scatter and cut into pieces.

DeathAndPain
Mortal

posted 19 March 2007 04:39 AM EDT (US) 24 / 44

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

what i've found is that Atlantean vills have the lowest resource gather rate per pop per minute in relation to all other races.

Never believe a statistics that you have not faked yourself... I will not trust this until I know in great detail how you conducted your tests, and how you factored in walking time on farms (which does not occur for Atlantean) and dropoff times for all non-Attie races. I suspect you ignored these altogether or measured the non-Attie vills only in optimal situations (such as vill standing right between mine and storehouse).

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

Also seems that Egypt vills are weaker than Greek unless empowered or enhanced by Bast or Thoth

You are stating the well-known. That's why Egypt does have empowering. Exact gather speed tables are available in the internet (although these typically do not cover any dropoff times as well).

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

Norse vills are weaker hunters unless by Odin or Thor

Shucks.

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

For example i had 4 FUed Atlantean Cits hunting elk, in one minute gathered about 40 food per pop. I did the same with 12 Thor dwarves - turned in about 48 food per pop.

You should have used Thor gatherers for even more hunting speed. Using dwarves for hunting is not advisable, not even for Thor, and especially not with the standard upgrades (Hunting Dogs) researched.

Sorry, but before publishing such "test reports" about the game, you should polish your basic knowledge on it first.

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

Murmillo can be just as strong as hoplites in general

What a surprise with regard to the fact that they have pretty much identical stats. Murms and hops are the same, except that murms are a little faster but have 5% less pierce armor while hops have a negligible 5 more hp.

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

That's my 345,453,453 cents

Heroic Tradition cents apparently, which unfortunately convert to almost nothing in hard currency...

Quoted from AmazingFerret:

Well i'm making a guide about Resource gathering.

so all the gathering rate answers will be answered in my guide.

Anyone not willing to wait for that guide can simply download Xentelian's statistics sheets and read all the exact gathering rates in there, finding that an additional "guide" on them is useless.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Heroic Tradition
Mortal

posted 19 March 2007 06:00 PM EDT (US) 25 / 44

Thor's dwarves gather food and wood at the same rate as his vills, almost exactly. I stated dwarves for the sake of example, it wouldn't matter that of Thor i'd used. I could have used Egyptians or Greeks and it still would have been higher. Anything would have except Loki gatherers (who boast the same hunting per pop at atlanteans) and Loki dwarves who simply suck at it. Odin's dwarves are actually that bad at hunting because of his bonus though they are pitiful at wood and Odin's gatherers are better hunters than his dwarves. As i just stated the same is no true of Thor. Perhaps you should examine the polish of your own knowledge before making such claims.

I conducted these tests using every major god in the game, putting their vills at the test not only with all standard upgrades but also with the mythical upgrades of whatever minors those majors had access too. I used a set pop limit per gathering group: 12. I placed drop sites exactly as i would in a game. Granaries going in the middle of herds, or next to berry bushes. Herd animals lined up by the TC. Farms build around a drop site as close as i could build them. Drop sites right next to a gold mine. Right next to a forest (with norse i gradually moved the ox cart deeper in as the path was cleared, as i might in a game).

Using the ingame timer, i placed a group of villagers nearby to a resource, when the timer hit a round number like "9:00" or "15:30" or what-have-you something easy to remember, i commanded them to commense gathering and at the exact stroke on one minute's elapsed time i forced them all to drop at their site, thereby accurately depicting how much resource a 12-pop group could get into their hands in 1 minute's time and i did so, as stated above, with every vill of every god. For Atlanteans i simply told them to stop after 1 minute since they have no site to drop to, they simply drop it to their donkey immediately. I don't have to tell you that it's impossible for a group of 12 to "stand inbetween" a gold mine and the storehouse, or between several dead elk and a granary meters away. In fact, during the farming the non-Atlantean vills had to waste a few seconds for all 12 to make it to their respective farms. This is not so of Atlantean.

Before checking to see how much the vills gathered, i even made sure to tribute all of the chosen resource to my computer ally so that i had 0 left, thus leaving no chance for error in the count.

I typed in notepad all my findings since i knew it would be ridiculous to try and remember it all, here is an example:

Hades(Vaults of Erebus), Ares, Aphrodite(Divine Blood, Golden Apples), Artemis

Favor: 4 vills, FU, 1 minute = 19 favor / 4.75 favor per vill per minute
Gold: 12 vills, FU, 1 minute = 789 gold / 65.75 gold per vill per minute
Hunting: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 537 food / 44.75 food per vill per minute
Herding: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 555 food / 46.25 food per vill per minute
Wood: 12 vill, FU, FU, 1 minute = 785 wood / 65.42 wood per vill per minute
Farming: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 580 food / 48.3 food per vill per minute
Vaults of Erebus: 44 gold per minute

On the gold, i didn't use Vaults of Erebus, i decided to test that seperately. I'm sure i could have checked the internet for its gold yield but i wanted to see for myself since i was going through all these curious ciphering anyway.

Some of what i've typed in this post is just repeating what i have said earlier, which if you had read all that i typed, you would know.

Here are other examples:

Thor(dwarves gather better, Dwarven Mine, Pig Sticker), Forseti, Skadi(Winter Harvest), Tyr

Herding: 12 dwarf, 1 minute, FU = 534 food / 44.5 food per dwarf per minute
Dwarven Gold Mine: 12 dwarf, FU, 1 minute = 902 gold / 75.17 gold per dwarf per minute
Gold: 12 dwarf, FU, 1 minute = 904 gold / 75.3 gold per dwarf per minute
Hunting: 12 dwarf, FU, 1 minute = 579 food / 48.25 food per dwarf per minute
Wood: 12 dwarf, FU, 1 minute = 670 wood / 55.83 wood per dwarf per minute
Gathering: 12 dwarf, FU, 1 minute = 391 food / 32.58 food per dwarf per minute
Farming: 12 dwarf, FU, 1 minute = 591 food / 49.25 food per dwarf per minute
Farming: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 599 food / 49.9 food per vill per minute
Hunting: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 576 food / 48 food per vill per minute
Gold: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 714 gold / 59.5 gold per vill per minute
Wood: 12 vill, FU, 1 minute = 754 wood / 62.83 wood per vill per minute
Herding: 6 vill, FU, 1 minute = 276 food / 46 food per vill per minute

You may notice i used 6 vills on the last herding test, that's because i doubted i had enough herd animal left (1 alive and 1 dead with half spent) to fully support 12 gatherers.

Oranos, Prometheus, Hyperion

Wood: 3 Cit Heroes, FU, 1 minute = 574 wood / 47.83 wood per pop per minute
Gold: 4 Cit, FU, 1 minute = 653 gold / 54.42 gold per pop per minute
Gold: 3 Cit Heroes, FU, 1 minute = 529 gold / 44.1 gold per pop per minute

Gaia(Channels, Gaia Forest Tree), Leto, Rheia

Gaia Forest Tree: 4 Cit, FU, 1 minute = 698 wood / 58.17 wood per pop per minute
Gaia Forest Tree: 3 Cit Heroes, FU, 1 minute = 634 wood / 52.83 wood per pop per minute
Herding: 4 Cit, FU, 1 minute = 426 food / 35.5 food per pop per minute
Herding: 3 Cit Hero, FU, 1 minute = 359 food / 29.92 food per pop per minute

DeathAndPain if you don't find this to your satisfaction, frankly i can't say i give a damn, and don't take my current disposition as one of anger when in truth it's apathy with a hint of disappointment in you, though i can't say i had reason to expect better. For you to single myself out, by wide margin, in your post when i have done you no past offense reflects poorly on your character. If you disagree with me that's one thing, i will accept that in of itself especially if you provide evidence that i am wrong. But to direct personal insults and imply that i'm a liar (an accusation i have always disdained in my life) based on nothing more than your personal common sense is something else altogether.

I came to these forums in the hopes of creative, interesting, and intelligent discourse between myself and others. I had hoped in vain not to be bothered by people such as yourself but i erred in that judgement. The ignorance you display is equalled only by members of the ill-fated StarKingdoms game.

I didn't do all those experiments so that i could arrogantly publish some form of God-like economy guide, rather i did it for my own curiosity about the game's "hidden mojo." I'd rather see it straight from the horse's mouth than rely on the word of someone else. I invite anyone to do the same and find out these trinkets on their own if they don't want to take mine or anyone else's word for it. In truth, i can't expect anyone to take my word for it since i'm not an AoMH icon, but i'd rather people behave more maturely in their conjectures and criticisms.

The middle ages were a time when amebic dysentary was considered the good kind of dysentary

DeathAndPain
Mortal

posted 19 March 2007 06:10 PM EDT (US) 26 / 44

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

Thor's dwarves gather food and wood at the same rate as his vills, almost exactly.

Again, you are badly informed. Thor's dwarves gather almost as fast as vills, but they benefit less from all food and wood upgrades, including Hunting Dogs, so after researching those, they gather considerably slower.

When you plan on conducting a test, you should not put your (imagined) result into the test setup. You should do the test neutrally. Then you may see errors like this one better.

Quoted from Heroic Tradition:

I could have used Egyptians or Greeks and it still would have been higher.

No, it would not. You are talking trash. You pretend to be doing tests but in fact insert your illusions about reality into the setup.

Eggy can gather faster, but only if empowered. Greek gathers equally fast. In fact Greek gathers slower, because Greek hunters cannot always achieve the minimal dropoff distances that Norse hunters have with good ox cart micro.

Your description of your tests sound pretty careful, yet your bizarre results prove that you messed up.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

Heroic Tradition
Mortal

posted 19 March 2007 06:20 PM EDT (US) 27 / 44

I'm willing to bet if you did it as i have stated (assuming you believe you can do so without messing up where you claim i did) you will achieve results that are strikingly similar

The middle ages were a time when amebic dysentary was considered the good kind of dysentary

Hadesdrew
Mortal

posted 19 March 2007 06:24 PM EDT (US) 28 / 44

Cool, fight night. I put all my money on DaP.

God I was the worst back then but live and learn

Shanks13
Rogue Agent

posted 19 March 2007 06:42 PM EDT (US) 29 / 44

I'll stand with drew on this one. Don't try and contradict DaP unless you are a complete genius. Most of the time he will dissect you and make you look like an idiots without breaking a sweat. Lol, must be fun.
The point is though, that gather rates are different, and that they end up being part of the civ. Deal with it. You could go in and find out which civ is statistically best in all areas and play that, but then you are simply putting your money and stats instead of skills. Being a good player can make up for almost any lack of stats, unless you are staring down 20 hero arcus with a nidhogg alone.

Heroic Tradition
Mortal

posted 19 March 2007 06:51 PM EDT (US) 30 / 44

As i said, my only motivation was curiosity. Not to make a strategy altering eco guide. Thus far i have not been presented with a single reason why i'm wrong, simply told in some god-like tone that i MUST be wrong because it doesn't add up with someone else's rendition of the status quoe. As though being told off by the 3rd person omniscient narrator of a book who simply knows all the answers by default, or like some American History text book that tells you its version of the facts of history without relaying the truth of cause and effect or making known that history is more debatable questions than rock hard answers. Simply stating that "you're wrong because i say so" is best left to politcal rhetoric.

Someone else reading this thread has pointed out to me something (which i previously ignored) and that is numerous implications by DaP that i somehow didn't type down what really happened in my experiments but instead typed down what i wished or imagined (or as he terms it, illusioned) what happened. I know not how he would divine such rubbish because it would either mean i'm a liar, insane, or on drugs; none are which are true. Whether that was his actual intention or just some misstatement due to poor English i don't know.

The middle ages were a time when amebic dysentary was considered the good kind of dysentary

[This message has been edited by Heroic Tradition (edited 03-19-2007 @ 07:41 PM).]

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