i quite agree to an extent..

villies get bonus to siege??

whos gonna send those slow citizens into battle..

haha.

and cheiro have 50% pierce and shoot multiple projectiles, which Cheiro>Turma even if u consider pop cost...

Cheiro>Murm and in atty battles there should be no kats, lol.

really it just becomes a who has more turma battle in most instances... that and who gets the chance to up first and bring in contarius to laugh at all the anti-archer/anti-infantry units out and just finish it already.

p.s. you can't type finish it in the game haha... its funny.

it always comes out fini*#^$%

and cheiro have 50% pierce and shoot multiple projectiles, which Cheiro>Turma even if u consider pop cost...

chieros miss, this isnt why chieros are good. mainly its cos they have such good range, so you can hit and run all day. also once you've got his murms down, yours can pretty much go straight through and carve up his turmae.

contarius are a waste of rescources unless you have a large group of hero ones with the theaia ups taking down tcs/wonders.

p.s. you can't type finish it in the game haha... its funny.

it always comes out fini*#^$%

you can always take off the language filter...

hmm, i see no reasoning behind contarius being weak...

turma = archer
cheiro = archer
murm = slow

cont = fast, works well on archers...

okay that doesn't work out in my mind, sure they aren't as strong as other faiths calvary... but... they are calvary, and calvary excels on archers, which is what most (early) atty wars consist of.


and also, i was defending your points... dum dum

no need to start name calling.

conts are not worth it because they have low hp and pierce armour (for cavalry)

your own turmae/chieros/murms do a better job.

Quoted from Squeoo:

hmm, i see no reasoning behind contarius being weak...

Guess u are the only one.

Quoted from Squeoo:

cheiro = archer

No they are not If you would have even bothered to read the unit description you would have noticed it says: SIEGE WEAPON only good vs infantry and ships.
Please do proper research before posting.

Quoted from Squeoo:

cont = fast, works well on archers...

However contarius have low pierce and hack armor ( both 15% at the start without upgrades ) so when needed if a few turma that focus fire will take them out. which means you justed wasted rescrouces you could have spended on upgrading your murms...

Quoted from Squeoo:

and also, i was defending your points... dum dum

I do not think this helped him much IMO

[This message has been edited by empireofages (edited 07-05-2007 @ 03:29 AM).]

TBH I don't think contarious would loose vs Turma.

no1 makes pure turma boo...

they have to get through the murms/proms/katas if theyre out yet, in the meantime you can focus fire.

I have a question: Is turmae more accurate than toxotes and CA?

from experience theyre a bit worse.... not sure on exact numbers tho.

They all have 80% accuracy

Ok, but I'd imagine a Contarius would easily beat turma 1vs2.

P.S you'd be surprised how many atty players make almost pure turma... (Titan in a game yesterday, lol XD) and ek_Crack :O

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-05-2007 @ 07:27 AM).]

I really like Cheiroballista in the beginning of the game to be honest; specifically with the Egyptians and the Norse; due to the Egyptian infantry concentration, and Norse infantry concentration + weak buildings + LONG range of Cherioballistae.

Statistics (Posted for reference)

Cost: 115(wood) 100(gold)
Population: 4
Pierce Damage: 4
Range: 20
HP: 85
Hack Armor: 25%
Pierce Armor: 50%
Crush Armor: 75%
Speed: 3.85
Line of sight: 30
Training time: 20

If seen in the status, Cheiros have a range of 20, which is a REALLY good range(The highest that of Atlanteans, with Arcus). Even towers can't attack Cheiros when they themselves crumble **maniacal laughter** Even their Line Of Sight rules: 30 FRIGGIN METERS!!! GUYS THIS IS A MOVING ORACLE!!!(Same with Dryads) The speed's almost OK with 3.85...(Which is still better than the Oracle's 3.5 speed )

As far as Atlanteans are considered as enemies, with yourself being an Attie; the Cheiro can do wonders IF produced AFTER the first one/two mini-fights have been done. I mean, your opponent naturally will have a higher concentration of Infantry, and some Cheiros himself (unless he recently scouted you, and created some Cavalry (That won't be happening in Classical...))

One more thing: Someone JUST stated that villagers have bonus VS. the Cheiros. I would like to tell you that Villagers have an automated action to RUN, and that too with Cheiros at the range of 20 meters, NO TOWER can attack these guys (Given they are not in the village premises ).

Furthermore even the basic starting infantry (that almost everyone has a MASS of in the Cassical) will die before they even REACH these guys. I mean take a group of, say, 4 Cheiros (500 Wood, 400 Gold) and get them attacking some huge group of Murmilloes. I bet you an underwear, 3/4 of them will die on their way (Given they are at 20 meters and didn't know of the Cheiros before they started attacking them)


The only drawback that will be obvious in the early gaming is the hefty price, and the Myth Units, that have Melee (Hack) damage against the low hack armour(population wise), as well as Bonus against these poor guys.

Yeah, stay away from the Starting Myth Units, and any extras that are made, and you should do JUST fine!

P.S. - Have you guys EVER seen a Cheiroballista-Guy's feet?

I would like to tell you that Villagers have an automated action to RUN,

heard of micro?

also, unfortunatly most eggys go fh and never make infantry.
if they did, theyd find out that spears do quite well vs attie, since theyre fast enough that chieros miss (and they have a bonus), they rape turmae and dont lose too badly vs murms.

towers do get up to 20 range iirc.

no tower can attack?!?! towers have 20 range

lo, yeah VB_WhiplashJC, heard of microing villagers. But what I intend to say is, by the time, the villagers cover 20 meters on their dainty feet; they are already dead. (Because I have microed Cheiros on the approaching villagers)

And yeah, I now realized towers have 20 range (I previously thought the number was 18: My bad )

*lol* I knew the analysis was way too good to be true :P But still, there is a considerable distance between the villager AND the tower, making the total distance more than 20; therefore proving my statement correct. *does victory dance*

What I mean to say is this:

* *Dist=x * * * * * * * *Distance=20 meters
Tower......Villager..................................................Cheiroballistae

Therefore, 20 + x > 20; therefore no attack. :P

Anyways, VB_WhiplashJC, I get your point on the Egyptians, but FHs can really be delayed by raping the villagers off the food and gold: Cheiros and Turmae to the job

Plus, the topic was intended against Atlanteans, so I analyzed only on the perspective of Atties.

P.S. - You think Cheiro Scouting is a good tactic in the Classic Age?

i think you'd be surprised. remember chieros get no bonus damage vs vils, so they arent doing much damage.

about scouting with them, imo its a terrible idea. expensive, weak, 5 pop slot unit for scouting? when you have 3 free 1 pop units around? i dont think so.

turma>cheiro. gg no re. next question plz.

Thx for posting the rec. Congrats with your rate, n1 1800+ gogo Oranos..

I think the rec proved irgods point really. "i relax when I see atty players making cheiro vs me if i am atty because it means they will lose in the next 10 mins."

Problem is the cherios can give you an advantage in late classical but then the opponent just needs to hold you off until heiroc, make 6 dryads, some birds, or destroyers and bye bye cheiro. Plus he can still keep raiding with turma and getting infantry / archer line upgrades covers his whole army.

That said maybe you just made too many and should have gone herioc instead, or you had the better army but should of used it to stop him getting a 3rd tc. Difficult to tell from that rec because his eco managment was better and he played well to get to herioc first and push you back.


To Passionate Soul.
turma >>>>>>> cheiro for raiding, cos they are just too slow, it dosent matter about their range cos if your opponent has any micro at all he will just move his citizens around as soon as they get hit. And if you sneak up on them like you suggest the citizens will (or should) just rape your cheiro, lol.

nps, tks

I think the rec proved irgods point really. "i relax when I see atty players making cheiro vs me if i am atty because it means they will lose in the next 10 mins."

lol true, but i didnt lose because his turmae were raping my chieros.

i probs should have gone for that tc, true.

turma>cheiro. gg no re. next question plz.

watch the rec? post/link to an 18+ rec supporting this?

:P I don't think you got my point:

Cheiros do 4 pierce damage and shoot I think more than one more.

Villager pierce armor is 35% - Thats 3 damage going PER shot hitting them damn things :P

And I am really sure there are more than 3 arrows going....So that makes an average of say 10 for every hit. 10/sec.

Therefore: average villager killed in 5 seconds(Efficient IMO). 1 Attie Citizen killed in 16 secocds...Hmmmm....Not that bad AFFTER ALL!!! (Although I personally recommend Turma for such a mission, since it has the SAME effectivity with half the cost ) Just take the Cheiros, incase some darn SoB come running to attack your poor Turma. And then perhaps you can continue raping the Plebians.

Plus the population is 4, not 4. (See the stats)

What I meant, was that yes, the free Oracles do good, but having just ONE Cheiroballista that you are ANYWAYS going to use for fighting, can be used to get a quick look at the entire map. (MUCH MUCH EFFICIENT than waiting 10 seconds or whatever for the dumb Oracles :P)

BTW - How big is the map? Is it 100 X 100 meters? (Medium sized one)

Oh oh, one more thing! How much is one meter on the AoM map? Just wondering

lol, you're making a case for using them for the exact opposite of what they are good at.

Idk exact stats but Cheiro spread their fire so maybe just one arrow out of the four will hit the targeted villie, the rest will miss and may hit others. t4 peons survive longer so they can easily get away.

Its too inefficent to "just take the cherios, incase some darn SoB come running to attack your poor Turma" If you do make cheiro you want all of them in your main army. Thats why turma are excellent raiders cos if they get hassled they can just hit and run. Keep cheiro in the backline firing into a mass of troops, ideally infantry. Ok, if you have some close by, use them to attack peons if they can safely retreat.

And now you want to scout with them too, ROFLLL 111111111111

LMAO you guys are really pathetic...

you pulled out points in my thing that you just misconstrue..

i said cheiro = archer because they shoot arrows and suck against buildings, thus makes them an archer (FOR USAGE ABILITY) hell if you want me to go extremely in-depth with my descriptions then i can...

and, you in one of your posts now, said that YOU THINK conts. take on turma 2 on 1... so thus, why is what i said incorrect??

atlanteans consist of mostly infantry.. the archers all excel vs. infantry so its time to bring out the fast units am i right?

and also, siege being weak against calvary as well... just get some pierce upgrades, and maybe go through theia (if possible) and get her calvary upgrades...

the situation calls for calvary, i don't care what you say about the unit, as you were doing, ITS ALL ABOUT THE UNIT TYPES! so calvary>archer and calvary>siege.

and, you in one of your posts now, said that YOU THINK conts. take on turma 2 on 1... so thus, why is what i said incorrect??

show me a game where there was a battle with one contarius against 2 turmae.

the situation calls for calvary, i don't care what you say about the unit, as you were doing, ITS ALL ABOUT THE UNIT TYPES! so calvary>archer and calvary>siege.

sadly its not. if you just look at what es recommends you make you wont get very far.

for instance, you'd think camels beat all cav, they dont. you'd think counter cav would beat ellies. in most cases they dont. the list goes on. using unit types without thinking about what beats what in reality is a pitfall that will keep you from improving.

theoritecal knowledge counts for around about nothing. expierience is what will help you improve.

[This message has been edited by VB_WhiplashJC (edited 07-05-2007 @ 09:19 PM).]

i don't have the guide from ES, i play from experience and thats how i do things.. trial and error.

i spoke nothing of camels or anything, we are talking about turma which are counter archer with low pierce, and i say that a fast moving unit that can catch them is a good counter.

i was refering to the ingame help.
and you said

ITS ALL ABOUT THE UNIT TYPES!

which it isnt.

Quoted from MonkeyHead:

lol, you're making a case for using them for the exact opposite of what they are good at.

I beg your pardon, but I was speaking of using Turmae WITH Cheiroballistae, if that was what you were talking about.

Idk exact stats but Cheiro spread their fire so maybe just one arrow out of the four will hit the targeted villie, the rest will miss and may hit others. t4 peons survive longer so they can easily get away.

Agreed. I suppose its spread since it is a seige weapon; and the building's vast base area, doesn't really matter with small inaccuracies.

Its too inefficent to "just take the cherios, incase some darn SoB come running to attack your poor Turma" If you do make cheiro you want all of them in your main army.

Yes, but I think you are over-looking a very important point I stated: EARLY CLASSICAL. Yeah, they are excellent for that. The picture of a main army, IMO, comes after Classical, or in Late-Classical. Furthermore, he CAN move his villagers away, but that way you're hampering his economy.

Secondly, the villagers won't be able to kill these Cheiros, for three reasons:
1. Most probably, the Opponent will not micro until SOME considerable time, by which you have some injured.
2. They are at a range of 20. Coming from that distance, alive, is something I doubt.
3. The villagers speeds are 3.8 (Normal) and 3.25(Attie) and therefore cannot cope up with the Cheiros, in case they chase them.(Just call your Cheiros back to base; and augment them to your main army, that you should be forming about now) Remember; a villager chasing, is a villager NOT doing work. And the slow speed keeps them following your Cheiro...

And now you want to scout with them too, ROFLLL 111111111111

I repeat: EARLY CLASSICAL. Scouting with one of these guys on a say 100 X 100 (?) map is not a bad idea at ALL. Especially since they are quite fast then the dumb Oracles, who take about 10/12/ seconds just to see ONE circle of LoS. Plus, not much of your Enemy's army has developed any ways. Get my point?

Ok, question, for you or anyone..

Would you suggest making cheiro in early classical vs atty?

(early classical means the first units you make right?)

VB IF UR GONNA QUOTE, GET THE RIGHT QUOTE!

YOU WERE TALKING UNIT TYPES SO THAT WAS A SARCASTIC (IF YOU SAY SO) THEN ITS ABOUT UNIT TYPES.


learn to read before u start crap.

honestly.

first of all, stop using caps lock, it looks like you are shouting ( i do not know if there are rules against it, but still i ask you nicely to stop doing it because it looks intimidating and also not very friendly )

Second, in one of your above posts you say that a fast unit is a good counter unit ( for archers ).
I strongly disagree on that. Armor is also very important.
Therefor if you want to counter turma, produce turma yourself :P
Build anything but contarius, they are just not worth their price.

Well I don't play atty but I know that they have very powerful anti-cavalry, and slow anti-infantry. So I suppose your contarius+cheiro army would be very slow compared to his turma+kata army. But I of course use cavalry vs turma, as I am Thor. Then again, I consider TA to be generally stronger than cheiros.

Quoted from empireofages:

i do not know if there are rules against it, but still i ask you nicely to stop doing it because it looks intimidating and also not very friendly

yessir, i sorry.. lol

but turma vs. turma is basically a heads or tales kind of game... and it depends on who is fighting in who's base.

you normally get shield upgrades anyway if your opponent is massing archers.. i'm just simply stating that having a unit that does 11 hack (i believe thats the cont. damage) and has speed can take out turma.

their purpose otherwise is not worth it, but if you are having an all out turma battle and they have enough cheiro to make you think def. not on murmillos, bring out a few contarious.

with theia, they aren't THAT bad... the calvary upgrade is helpful, although not the stupid hero upgrade.

i can see im wasting my time here, since you wont believe an 1800 player.

im not trying to attack you personally, im actually trying to help you.

Tbh there is messy misquoting everywhere. It's like argueing about apples and then you find out the other person thinks you're argueing about bannana's :S

And Squeoo, yes you might be annoyed but you don't have to go crazy .