Race weaknesses and strengths - Age of Mythology Heaven Forums

Topic Subject: Race weaknesses and strengths

mcosmin
Mortal

posted 14 September 2014 11:56 AM EDT (US)

For those who do not know...

Greek:

+ Overall most powerful militery in game
+ powerful heros, that can easily take on human units as well as large heaps of myth units.
+ All minor gods are viable with at least 1 major god.
+ most versatile way of getting favor
+ bests scouts in the game
+ unique units are nice (except for poseidon, hataori suck)

- No building is free, depends alot on wood.
- Units and buildings are more expensive.
- Only 4 heroes.
- little to no healing available.

Egypt

+ doesn't need villigers for favor.
+ all their heroes are ranged.
+ Pharrows.
+ cheap units, easy to mass.
+ Economic buildings are free
+ Buildings only cost gold
+ Free tower upgrade in classical.
+ healing available for all gods
+ most minor gods are viable.

- Units are weaker than the other race counterparts (except for elles).
- priests are relatively bad against human units.
- Villigers gather slower than other races.
- Depends on pharrows for economy.
- Favor is hard to come by in large amounts.
- Scouting requires gold investment
- units must be upgraded individually

Norse

+ military units have large attack damage.
+ villigers can turn into ulfsarks when needed.
+ units are generaly fast.
+ hersirs are nice.
+ doesn't require villigers for favor.
+ building cost is balanced between gold and wood.
+ More healing available than greek but not as much as eggy.
+ very powerful myth units
+ very powerful god powers
+ ox carts
+ dwarfs
+ most powerful navy.
+ infanty can build buildings. This comes by hand for a variety of tactics or when you want to quickly snatch an enemy town center.

- Their units are glass cannons and die fast.
- least effective way of gathering favor.
- towers and walls are weaker and can only be upgraded once
- no archers (trolls don't count).
- only 4 ranged units, out of which 2 are myth units.
- really vulnerable to pierce damage armies.
- siege is kinda lame, although the large damage of all units usually compensates for that.
- relaies on heavy aggresive tactics.
- some minor gods are useless.

Atlantis

+ villigers do not require drop off points.
+ town centers can be built in classical.
+ doesn't need villigers for favor.
+ turma.
+ most god powers can be used several times.
+ all units can become heroes

- town centers are considerably weaker compared to other races.
- no reliable way of getting favor fast.
- their siege weapons suck. You have to relay on myth units or destroyers
- most god powers are lame.
- heroes only do increased damage to myth units, they still maintain their hard counters from their time as human units.
- heroes require an additional 1 population for each.
- most myth units are pathetic.
- healing is not always easy to come by.
- even if they do not require drop off points, fully upgraded atlantian villigers are less effective than the other races villigers.
- most minor gods are weak and their upgrades are not particularily useful.

Did i miss something?

[This message has been edited by mcosmin (edited 09-14-2014 @ 11:59 AM).]

Author

Replies:

Izalith
Mortal
(id: Lilitu)

posted 14 September 2014 07:05 PM EDT (US) 1 / 17

Yes, about Norse:

"least effective way of gathering favor." - I disagree.
Most effective/calulatabe: Greek,
then: Eggy/Norse,
least effective: Atlantis.

Gathering Favor with Norse:
- For Thors Pig Sticker it is enough to start hunting and kill two deer/caribou/zebra gettin 1 Favor.
- When you build Hersir which you usually do while advanceing from archaic to classical to have more builders for your base, you get Hersir. Hersir do generate Favor by just standing there and doing nothing.
- It is an aggressive civ and you get favor for fighting. Really fast and really a lot. Often you end up at 100 fav if you dont watch to spend it in time.
If you dont play aggressive/the Norse way, it's not the Civs fault. If you dont build monuments or more TC's, is Eggy/Atty the reason for you not getting favor?

With Atlantis your TC's are your Monuments and the early game you start with only one and probably arent going for a early second TC every game.

Another thing:
- Greeks have to build 3 barracks and update only 3 lines of military. (Archery, Cavalry, Infantry)
- Eggys have to build 1 barrack but update 6 lines of military.
- Norse have to build 1 barrack and update only 2 lines of military. (Cavalry, Infantry)
- Atty has to build 2 barracks and update 4 lines of military. (Infantry, Cavalry, Archery, Chiero)
(forts not included)

So Greek and Atty may pay more for barracks to have access to all their military, while Eggy(6), Atty(4) and Greek(3) have to support more lines of military to keep their troops efficient than Norse(2). Of course you probably never upgrade everything there but only the things you use and there are also always just armory-upgrades to take instead. Also Atty goes mostly for Infantry(4 Units) and maybe Archery(2 Units) and probably never for the one Chiero-Unit or the one Cavalry-Unit they have.
Still, Norse can afford to switch among all Units available while haveing them still upgraded with more ease than other civs adding to this civ being kind of slim (not much upgrade-lines, not much buildings, eco in oxcarts, more focus on aggression).

A bonus to the atty eco is the vill-producing time. The Atlantean economy is time-efficient haveing more gathering availability faster than other civs, but pop-inefficient.

I didnt knew about the Atty Hero Hard Counters, that sounds interesting. Another problem adressed often though is that Atty Heroes without Prometheus (Valor and Heart of the Titans) are to expensive and therefore Loki-Gaia with early Hersir/Myth-Aggression a hard match for Gaia.

enemy of loki
Mortal

posted 15 September 2014 07:19 AM EDT (US) 2 / 17

i think everything evens out in the end.

i mean yeah egypt has slooow builders. but they also got priest and pharaohs to make the villagers work faster. theres also the relatively easy to buy flood of the nile upgrade that brings free food. also the farm upgrade which reduces costs of farms is readily available. the villagers are slow to build but the upgrades make them build and accumulate resources at an awesome rate.

i could go on and on about the other civilizations also but its the same when it comes down to it although there are rumors that zeus has the slight edge.

mcosmin
Mortal

posted 15 September 2014 07:44 AM EDT (US) 3 / 17

Just out of curiosity, what is the bonus damage for zeus infantry against buildings. Seems to me it is somewhere at 150%.

[This message has been edited by mcosmin (edited 09-15-2014 @ 07:46 AM).]

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph

posted 15 September 2014 08:01 AM EDT (US) 4 / 17

+100%

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...

enemy of loki
Mortal

posted 15 September 2014 08:03 AM EDT (US) 5 / 17

not too sure about zeus damage against foes as far as a percent is concerned. never really been a numbers guy when analyzing this game. its either stronger or not as strong or weak when i calculate the odds.

lomby
Mortal

posted 15 September 2014 09:07 AM EDT (US) 6 / 17

Thanks for the summary, Its very good.

+ All minor gods are viable with at least 1 major god.

I think that happen with ALL minor gods. whats the point to a minor god you cant have with any major god?
Maybe you intended to say with 2 major gods.

+ bests scouts in the game

Im not a pro-player, but I think all initial scouts suck
of all four, the greek suck less, but all suck
yo have to build barracks to have good scout

+ healing available for all gods

I think this quote doesnt quit express how good priest are.
IS not just that healing is avalibe, you have at least 1 free unit with no pop that heals really well.
and all heros are cheap, ranged and heal units, I mean, they are units you are going to make anyway, Its a big plus, and I dont know if that phrase make it clear enough

+ most minor gods are viable.

"Most"? what minor god is not avalibe?

- units must be upgraded individually

can you explain this? I dont get it?

We embarked on our journey to the stars with a question first framed in the childhood of our species and in each generation asked anew with undiminished wonder: What are the stars? Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars.

-Carl Sagan

[This message has been edited by lomby (edited 09-15-2014 @ 09:08 AM).]

mcosmin
Mortal

posted 15 September 2014 09:56 AM EDT (US) 7 / 17

Pegasus and kastapokos are best scounts in game.

Horus, for instance, is a god that is not really viable compared to his counterparts in mythic age. Osiris for instance will almost always be better.

Most Atlantis minor gods suck. They bring little to the table in turns of upgrades and myth units. They are very situational.

WHile all other races upgrade units though medium/heavy/champion archers/infantry/cavalery, eggy upgrades each unit individually:

medium/heavy/champion spearmen
medium/heavy/champion axemen
medium/heavy/champion sliger
medium/heavy/champion elephants
medium/heavy/champion camelary
medium/heavy/champion chariots.

Pharrows aren't really OP. Yes, they are 100% free, but they have to supliment many weaknesses eggy has. You can't have him build your town faster, or empower economoy (only one resource, mind you) and fight. You have to choose, which makes it balanced.

[This message has been edited by mcosmin (edited 09-15-2014 @ 10:01 AM).]

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph

posted 15 September 2014 11:08 AM EDT (US) 8 / 17

Quoted from lomby:
I think that happen with ALL minor gods. whats the point to a minor god you cant have with any major god?
Maybe you intended to say with 2 major gods.

Nope, only about half of the minor gods in the game are regularly chosen in competitive play, and there are a fair amount that are almost never used. I've not thoroughly thought about this but off the top of my head the tiers would look a bit like this:

Tier 1 - Strong, near-automatic picks
Prometheus
Bragi
Theia
Baldr
Hel
Nephthys
Hermes
Hephaestus

Tier 2 - Viable and often used
Rheia
Hekate
Forseti
Freyja
Skadi
Bast
Ptah
Osiris
Thoth
Hathor
Athena
Aphrodite
Apollo
Dionysus

Tier 3 - Weak and under-used
Oceanus
Atlas
Helios
Heimdall
Njord
Anubis
Horus
Sekhmet
Ares
Artemis
Hera

Tier 4 - Useless and rarely viable
Leto
Hyperion
Tyr

Obviously there are situations where a minor god is picked simply because the best one isn't available (e.g. Oceanus for Gaia). Also the minor god choices change between major gods sometimes, for example Hathor is a near-automatic pick for Ra but almost never picked by Isis. Overall, Greeks have the best minor gods in the sense that all of them have their uses and even the minor gods competing with near-automatic picks have their uses. Atlanteans probably have the weakest, with both Kronos and Oranos having no real choice until Mythic.

mcosmin
Mortal

posted 17 September 2014 12:20 PM EDT (US) 9 / 17

I would move hera one tier up, really. The bonuses aren't bad at all and it is simply because hephaestos is the best minor in game that makes her realy used. Medusae are awesome.

Artemis works nicely with hades for awesomely powerful toxotes, but one usually gives up the gastraphetes for that. Toxotes+chimera is a nice combination

If you manage to ignore the incredible eco boost hepahestos gives you, hera and artemis become powerful. This relays on play style. SOmetimes i am too bored to go for hephaestos all the time and i pick hera/artemis. I was never disappointed.

Same can't be said about hyperion or tyr, for instance. Although i would say tyr desirves a place in tier 3.

[This message has been edited by mcosmin (edited 09-17-2014 @ 12:22 PM).]

astonm112
Mortal

posted 17 September 2014 01:49 PM EDT (US) 10 / 17

I saw plenty of times Lokis going Tyr so.. for Loki it's a viable choice (since he can't get baldr)

mcosmin
Mortal

posted 17 September 2014 03:18 PM EDT (US) 11 / 17

Hel is superior IMO. It doesn't work for all-inish strategies like baldr, but instant fire giants? Actually hel has better fire giants than baldr.

lomby
Mortal

posted 19 September 2014 10:45 PM EDT (US) 12 / 17

Yes, sorry, I missunderstud ciable for available

BrunoBronze
Mortal

posted 08 November 2014 04:21 AM EDT (US) 13 / 17

Hey guys, what about Toth? He is such a strong god, why is he in tier 2?

Brazilian strategy fan, sorry for any English mistakes.

XLightningStormL
Mortal
(id: TheBronyKing11)

posted 08 November 2014 08:48 AM EDT (US) 14 / 17

Oh and the Atlanteans when given new units (Modding) their A.I Techtree Fails, and they can't advance to ages above Archaic (In other words there stuck in the first age)

also
Norse is terrible at building a good economy (Especially against A.I Norse Players)

There needs to be some Improvement Mod for AoM (Look at the AoE:3 Improvement mod on that heaven page) that fixes some of these problems (Norse Archers, Greek Healers, Fix some of the Atlantean Minor God Problems.

Creator of AoM Expanded Mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1828492742) and Mod on AoEWiki (Morayus1)

Goldensword
Mortal

posted 09 November 2014 11:57 PM EDT (US) 15 / 17

I'd say that the Atlanteans have ample opportunity to get healing. You can have either a cheap healing hero-dominated army that'll chew through myth units and most anything else, a really fast regenerating myth army (does not apply to nereids), or even both. The hardest part is just getting enough faith to support either option. You have to expand really aggressively to even hope to maintain your armies.

As far as gods go, Atlas is probably the least useful. The argus get instakills, but are really soft and go down easy. His few other upgrades aren't particularly useful either. Implode is probably the weakest of all the god powers. At best you take down some buildings and damage an army enough to have an easier go of invasion. At worst (Odin), you just damage a few buildings and hurt an army a little...Then that army regenerates all its damage and kills you.

astonm112
Mortal

posted 10 November 2014 02:44 AM EDT (US) 16 / 17

healing is nice, but atty army is weakest in the game (okay maybe they beat classical egypt with cherioballistas but still.. weak) so they have to capitalize on outspamming the opponent with crap units instead of preserving them (and using superiour economy from saving units, healing them to full health)

XLightningStormL
Mortal
(id: TheBronyKing11)

posted 11 November 2014 00:05 AM EDT (US) 17 / 17

I made a mod ages ago (and still modifying to my personal taste) so I decided to write down some of the things from it that down-weigh the problems.

What I added was:
- Egyptian Scout - An Egyptian Equivalent to the Katascopos. Can Be Trained.
- Improved Destroyer & Fire Siphon
- Norse Archers - The Skirmisher an Anti-Archer unit, and Raiding Archer - an Anti-Infantry Unit.
- A New Technology for the Norse, Fortress Walls (They look the same as the Age 3 and 4 Norse Walls) that have more Health and Armor.
- Norse will now have Rushing Qualities (I Sped their Unit Creation Speed up) which compensates their glass units.
- Priests Enabled for every Civilizations, Norse get unique Druids which can train Ravens.

And a bunch of other things

Creator of AoM Expanded Mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1828492742) and Mod on AoEWiki (Morayus1)

Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Race weaknesses and strengths

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