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Topic Subject: A Guide to the Scarab
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posted 13 September 2003 02:56 PM EDT (US)   
Here's part 4 of my Egyptian Myth Guides. This one is on:

The Scarab

People know the Scarab for being:

a) Expensive
b) Slow
c) Good against buildings.

In this article, I will try and show you what the Scarabs are REALLY like, and prove/disprove the "myths" surrounding them.
First we need their stats:

Cost: 300 Food 20 Favour
HP: 670
Speed: 3.20
Hack Armour: 30%
Pierce Armour: 75%
Hack Damage: 6
Crush Damage: 12

x5 Bonus vs Buildings
Special ability: When killed, the Scarab damages all units within 6 range with its acid blood. Its acid blood does 23-29 damage to each unit within 6 range

NOTE: The bonus against buildings was found from AOMH unit tables. The Special ability stats were researched and tested by me.

So generally, VERY expensive, slow, very weak base hack and crush attack, low hack armour.
But, very high HP for a Heroic MU, (rivaled only by the Mountain Giant, Battle Boar and Hydra) very high pierce armour, incredible bonus and useful special ability.

Let's try one against a house to see how good it really is.

NOTE: Attacks are recorded per hit, not per second. This is because the Scarab does NOT attack once per second, but approximately every 1.5 seconds.

Test 1: 1 Scarab vs 1 Greek House (unupgraded)

Greek house stats
HP: 450
Crush Armour: 5%
Hack Armour: 30%
Pierce Armour: 95%

Scarab deals 117 damage to house per hit
Scarab destroys house in 4 hits in 5 seconds

Very quick and easy for the Scarab.
How about a house with the Masons upgrade?

Test 2: 1 Scarab vs 1 Greek House + Masons

House stats:
HP: 517
Crush Armour: 9%
Hack Armour: 30%
Pierce Armour: 95%

Scarab deals 113 damage to house per hit.
Scarab destroys house in 6 seconds in 8 seconds.

The Masons doesn't really make much of a difference to the Scarabs attack.

NOTE: I also tested the Scarab against an Egyptian house, and a Norse house. The base attack was still 117, but the Norse house was destroyed quicker because of lower HP.

So why does the Scarab do SO well against buildings? 117 is almost 10x their base crush attack of 12, so their bonus against buildings is x10. Let's see if that's true.
Like the Phoenix, the Scarab attacks buildings (and units) with crush damage and hack damage. Here's the math(s):

Crush damage: 12 x 5 = 60.
60 - 3 (Crush armour) = 57.

Hack damage: 6 x 5 = 30
30 - 9 (Hack armour) = 21.

So the Scarab's attacks + bonuses are:

Hack damage: 21
Crush damage: 57

Then why does it do a whopping 117 as its base attack against all unupgraded building with this armour?
Maybe its just houses, what about stronger buildings?

NOTE: Armour on these buildings are the same as the houses, although their HPs are higher.

Test 3: 1 Scarab vs 1 Fortress (unupgraded)
Scarab destroys fortress in 18 hits in 25 seconds.

Test 4: 1 Scarab vs 1 Migdol Stronghold (unupgraded)
Scarab destroys Migdol Stronghold in 24 hits in 33 seconds.

Test 5: 1 Scarab vs 1 Hillfort (unupgraded)
Scarab destroys Hillfort in 17 hits in 24.

Hmmm, its base attack is still 117. But why does it have a higher bonus then stated on this site?
I have come to the conclusion that the Scarab has a higher bonus against buildings than x5. I will research into this and find the answer as soon as I can. (see bottom*)

Anyway, back to the tests. How does the Scarab compare to a Siege Tower?

Siege Tower stats:

Cost: 200 Wood, 100 Gold, 3 Pop spaces
HP: 360
Speed: 2.90
Hack armour: 5%
Pierce armour: 95%
Crush damage: 50

So the Siege Tower is cheaper, has higher pierce armour and a higher base crush attack.
But, lower HP, its slower and has terrible hack armour.

Test 6: 1 Siege Tower (unupgraded) vs 1 Greek House (unupgraded)

Siege Tower deals 190 damage to house per hit.
Siege Tower destroys house in 3 hits in 8 seconds.

Well, its attack is significantly higher, and takes less hits to destroy the house.
However, the Scarab destroys the house QUICKER than the Siege Tower. This makes it a weaker building killer, but a quicker one, and speed is what usually matters when destroying buildings.

How about against a Fortress?

Test 7: 1 Siege Tower (unupgraded) vs 1 Fortress (unupgraded)
The Siege Tower destroys the Fortress in 12 hits in 43 seconds.

That's almost twice as slow as the Scarab. Could 2 siege towers match a scarab's taste for buildings?

Test 8: 2 Siege Towers (unupgraded) vs 1 Fortress (unupgraded)
The siege towers destroy the Fortress in 20 seconds.

That's only just quicker than 1 Scarab. Which means 2 Siege Towers are pretty much as good as 1 Scarab.
400 Wood, 200 Gold and 6 pop spaces vs 300 Food, 20 Favour and 5 pop spaces. Which would you choose?

Although Scarabs are "better" building killers, they do have one big advantage: They're MUs, and heroes rip them to shreds.
Saying that, with its 5% Hack armour and low HP, melee heroes will destroy a Siege Tower easily. But the part that makes it useful is against ranged heroes such as priests. With 95%, it will hardly scratch it. Compare that with a Scarab who dies miserably to heroes, we can see that the Siege Tower does a lot better against Egypt than the Scarab.

Summary:

Scarabs are ONLY good against buildings. Using them against human units is a waste of time and resources. The only reason it can beat most human units is because of its high HP.

Compared to Siege Towers, Scarabs are better in terms of speed and cost, but have a weaker attack. It's lower attack is not really important when you look at how slow the siege tower is to attack.

In my opinion, Scarabs should only be used against the Greeks, and possibly the Norse. Because the Egyptians have some stronger buildings, you need a higher attack to take them down, instead of speed. Against weak Norse buildings, Scarabs can take down buildings very quickly, but are likely to run into Hersir or Jarls, a Scarabs worst nightmare (apart from Bellerophon ).

The main reason why you should use Scarabs against the Greeks is that their buildings aren't TOO strong, a nice balance where you don't need so much strength as with higher HPed buildings. Particularly against Poseidon, when his Milita appear (this is the only exception to not attacking human units with Scarabs). If you have no backup, then Scarbs can kill militia pretty quickly without receiving too much damage (unlike a siege tower which will receive a lot due to its low hack armour).
Against Hades though, a mixture of Siege Towers and Scarabs is probably best.

So in conclusion, the Scarab is one of the best building killers in the game, but does terribly against EVERYTHING else (unlike the Mountain Giant). It may be slow, expensive and UGLY, but it really does excel against buildings. Use them if you have enough food and pop space, only use them against buildings (particularly Norse and Greek) and keep them away from Heroes!

* EDIT: It came to me in a dream. Because the Scarab attack every 1.5 seconds, it does 1.5x its base attack. Multiply that by 5 and you have the total. Not it's base attacks (12, 6) x 5.
This makes the stats correct.


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

[This message has been edited by ArtemisChimera (edited 09-14-2003 @ 07:31 AM).]

Replies:
posted 13 September 2003 03:10 PM EDT (US)     1 / 35  
WoW, Artemis at least I think this guide is good. I was looking forward to it. But as I've said before, your guides helps me a little cos I play egyy rarely. Any way I think ait's a good overall guide. Good job. Any other guides coming?

You Guys Know I Like Gaia and Hades... Why?
Because I like to play defensive... Why?
Because I like to boom... Why?
Because I like to win... Why?
Because I like to kick a**... Why?
Because...err...hmm... I don't Know!
posted 13 September 2003 03:13 PM EDT (US)     2 / 35  
Thanks inner_bliss

The next Guide will be made next Saturday.

Haven't decided which Eggy MU to do it on though, I guess I'll see what people want.


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

posted 13 September 2003 03:25 PM EDT (US)     3 / 35  
Petusuchos

somewhere a clock is ticking
posted 13 September 2003 03:54 PM EDT (US)     4 / 35  
I loved your guide, but I have one minor correction: the Scarab is THE best building killer, even outstripping that pesky Greek Heliopolis.
As for your next guide, I might like one for the Petsuchos, but howabout the underused Avenger? 1v1, it beats a Hydra.
posted 13 September 2003 04:29 PM EDT (US)     5 / 35  
this is the best of ur 4 guides

Petsuchos aren't underused, so there's no need to a guide4 them, and neither for Sphinxes... that leaves Mummies, Anubites(not underused but would be nice to see exactly the usefulness of their jumps) and the Avenger, an unit so straightforward that needs no explanation...

Mummies! Mummies! Mummies!


"Wololooooo"
(Phrase of wisdom said by an old Byzantine priest)
posted 13 September 2003 06:48 PM EDT (US)     6 / 35  
Well, just because something is used or underused shouldn't matter if there's a guide or not. I want them all! I guess I'd like to see the Petsuchos also. Why wait until next Saturday? At this rate you won't be done by the time the expansion pack comes out, and the x-pack is supposed to have changes to the stats of myth units anyway. Therefore all of your calculations will have to be redone. Might as well do them all quickly, then when the x-pack comes out you can revise them.
posted 13 September 2003 08:07 PM EDT (US)     7 / 35  
im not follwing the difference you see between speed and attack here. if the scarab does it faster that means its also doing more damage. it doesn't make sense that seige towers are better than scarabs vs egyptian buildings. one of them has to do more damage/second than the other and thats the end of the matter. also i think its unfair to compare them like this. i thinks it fair to assume that player who worshipped Sekhmet would researh Ram of the West Wind if they were using seige towers instead of scarabs, so testing that might give a better idea of what a person should use.
posted 13 September 2003 08:39 PM EDT (US)     8 / 35  
Your guide still does not explain why one would pick Sekhmet over Hathor (locust storm + roc drop, petsuchoes, simply roc dropping, mercs) or Nephthys (priest ups + ancestors).

Although your article explains in-depth some possible uses of the Scarab, it doesn't explain the big picture of why you would pick Sekhmet vs. the other two gods. I respect the hard-work you've done on your guide, but to get the Scarab you have to pick Sekhmet in the first place, which is a decision I don't understand unless it's a very specific situation.

I also believe that the Scarab itself isn't a very good unit. A test in the scenario editor does not reflect a game situation, no matter how much math you do you can never really understand how good a unit is until you see it in an actual game. After using the scarab a lot (I play Ra a lot still), I've found that siege towers are far more effective.

First of all you can build more -- You fail to mention that the TWENTY favor the scarabs cost is a ton of cash to hand over. In an entire game you rarely build as many as five. With siege towers, you can drop 2 workshops and start spamming em like crazy.

Second, Scarabs just straight up cost more. Combined with their favor cost and 300 (!) food, you simply can't build that many and you spend many resources on just ONE siege unit. It's not worth it, siege towers may have less hack but you don't spend Fort Knox on em.

Third, Scarabs have a direct counter. Now, I admit, Siege towers have 5% hack, making them uber vulnerable vs. melee units, but, as I've said before, you can build more for less. 2 heroes spells death for your scarabs, greeks will tear you to pieces, eggy will do an even better job with infinite heroes, and Norse will build jarls.

IMO, Siege towers are better. Hathor/Nephthys are better. I do not see how anyone would want to utilize either Sekhmet or the Scarab itself.

posted 13 September 2003 09:14 PM EDT (US)     9 / 35  
The real question IMO is why wouldn't you just buy Sekhmet's siege tower upgrade instead of making scarabs? It's a pretty decent upgrade and later you can mass siege towers more easily.

Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
posted 13 September 2003 11:17 PM EDT (US)     10 / 35  
stupid fck. everyone knows about all that shit u just said. stop getting publicity by making stupid guides

ESO: Title_IX_Sucks, NoFx_HiTmaN
"If you don't like our country, you can exercise your right to leave."
Formally known as NrS_KiLLer
Now a member of the NoFx Clan
posted 13 September 2003 11:18 PM EDT (US)     11 / 35  
Do the next one on an anubite.
posted 13 September 2003 11:55 PM EDT (US)     12 / 35  

Quote:

stupid fck. everyone knows about all that shit u just said. stop getting publicity by making stupid guides

do a guide on mods. their special attack is good. it bans all people like nofx_hitman within the mod's los.


Vigilance_ca
It's all about vigilance
Humans are both the smartest and dumbest organisms on the planet
posted 14 September 2003 00:25 AM EDT (US)     13 / 35  
Great guide!!! Well this should help me out when choiceing what building to use Scarab against. Well look forward to your other guides. I was planning to make a guide but that would take to much time to do. Such I have to make a campaign and such.

- Zeus147


Campaigns Designing
Current Campaign: The Last of the Atlanteans
By: Battlestar000 Current Progess: 29%
Paused Campaign: Hades Temple: The Return of Gargarensis
By: Zeus147 Current Progess: 34%
Current Membership: DGDN
posted 14 September 2003 02:12 AM EDT (US)     14 / 35  
Interesting guide AC.Ur series of guides on the lesser-used MU's is great, but bring em out more often, we are clamoring 4 more. Later u can work ur way onto the lesser used Greek and Norse MU's.

Help me to tally the forums belief patterns, vote in my poll

Tally so far:-
Agnostics:18
Atheists:28
Theists:42
posted 14 September 2003 02:25 AM EDT (US)     15 / 35  

Quote:

do a guide on mods. their special attack is good. it bans all people like nofx_hitman within the mod's los.


LMAO

Quote:

Later u can work ur way onto the lesser used Greek and Norse MU's.


He doesn't use greek and nOrse.
And ArtemisChimera, nice guide do one on the sphinx, petsuchos, phoenix, avenger, these are underused, unlike anubits.
posted 14 September 2003 02:37 AM EDT (US)     16 / 35  
Very good post on the Scarab.

I believe that the Scarab is one good siege weapon of a myth unit but the cost of 300 food is abit to much i would say. The Scarab is a very good building killer due to its efficiency in speed and the bonus multiplier.

Good job ArtemisChimera.

I would like to see a post on the myth unit the Avenger. Its so strong. . I would like to see what it can do, and probably see what it would do against hordes of units also.

gl in your other posts on Egyptian MU's

posted 14 September 2003 03:30 AM EDT (US)     17 / 35  
Another great guide.

Can't wait for the next one.
Looking forward to the ones on the Pseutos and Mummies.


Don't judge those who try and fail.
Judge only those who fail to try.
posted 14 September 2003 04:31 AM EDT (US)     18 / 35  
Thanks for the support (almost) everyone

Quote:

Your guide still does not explain why one would pick Sekhmet over Hathor

I'm not doing a guide on the Egyptian Heroic Minor Gods, it's on the Scarab. IF someone picks Sekhmet, then they have the opportunity to make Scarabs, and the guide is about when that happens, and how to use them.

Quote:

i thinks it fair to assume that player who worshipped Sekhmet would researh Ram of the West Wind if they were using seige towers instead of scarabs

I understand this, but I try not to add myth techs to OTHER units than the MUs themselves. However, I will do tests just for you and post the results.

[/QUOTE]In an entire game you rarely build as many as five.[/QUOTE] (Scarabs)

Why would you need more than 3? Scarabs do the job of 4-5 Siege Towers.

Quote:

stupid fck. everyone knows about all that shit u just said. stop getting publicity by making stupid guides

LOL, you're reading it and replying to it because....
And I never ASKED for publicity.

As for the next guide, it will be done next Saturday. I know I should do it earlier, but it's really a question of how much time I have on my hands. Also, people get rowdy when they see too many guides around, so I better cool it for a week

Here's what people want next: (I've taken people's first choice)

Sphinx - 1
Petsuchos - 4
Avenger - 1
Mummy - 1
Anubite - 1

Looks like the Petsuchos so far


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

[This message has been edited by ArtemisChimera (edited 09-14-2003 @ 05:04 AM).]

posted 14 September 2003 05:09 AM EDT (US)     19 / 35  
Siege Towers + Ram of the West Wind (for guinea_pig_0
)

The tech costs 400 Gold and 20 Favour, so it's not cheap

New stats:
HP: 420
Crush Damage: 60
The rest are the same.

Against a Greek House.

229 damage dealt to house per hit.
House destroyed in 2 hits in 7 seconds.

Quite a big improvement, but still slower than the Scarab.


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

posted 14 September 2003 08:44 AM EDT (US)     20 / 35  
Dude i will say this one more time:

Damage is listed per second thus:

"Crush damage: 12 x 5 = 60.
60 - 3 (Crush armour) = 57.

Hack damage: 6 x 5 = 30
30 - 9 (Hack armour) = 21.

So the Scarab's attacks + bonuses are:

Hack damage: 21
Crush damage: 57"

Guess what:
21+57=78
Scarab attacks about once every 1.5 secs, 78X1.5 is 117, exactly the number found.

No secret 10X bonus here... Damage listed (aprt form some bugs maybe) per second, start with that and any calculations you make might actually make sense.

*edit: you noticed ityourselve, didnt read all the text before because it seemed like a conclusion right there. Sorry bout that
**edit: do one on the psechutos, it is one of the few units i feel that its actual behaviour isnt totally correct with its given stats....

Not the the actual findings become less usefull,
Kraken

[This message has been edited by L_Clan_Kraken (edited 09-14-2003 @ 08:50 AM).]

posted 14 September 2003 10:14 AM EDT (US)     21 / 35  
Well, to me the only real use of the Scarab is that it is able to be build from the Temple. This can be useful if you are quick to heroic, are pushing on and needs your builders for putting upp strongholds and town centers. Eggy siege workshops build just soooooooo slow.

Otherwise, donīt waste time on these cute little beatles.

posted 14 September 2003 10:22 AM EDT (US)     22 / 35  
jeez, the damage in unit tables is PER SECOND, not per attack, as people have told you in the topics for your previous guides. *rolls eyes*
posted 14 September 2003 12:34 PM EDT (US)     23 / 35  

Quote:

jeez, the damage in unit tables is PER SECOND, not per attack, as people have told you in the topics for your previous guides. *rolls eyes*

*sigh*

*prods WWGN_DaMijit, grabs him by the neck and pushes his face in front of the end of the article*

Quote:

* EDIT: It came to me in a dream. Because the Scarab attack every 1.5 seconds, it does 1.5x its base attack. Multiply that by 5 and you have the total. Not it's base attacks (12, 6) x 5.
This makes the stats correct.

READ!

*rolls eyes*

Why don't some people read before responding?


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

posted 14 September 2003 01:00 PM EDT (US)     24 / 35  
I vote for Petusuchos.

somewhere a clock is ticking
posted 14 September 2003 02:54 PM EDT (US)     25 / 35  
Great guide AC, hopefully you'll rekindle my love for the Eggies! I wanna see a guide on Mummies, because the only real use I see is their special attack and Petsuchos, 50 pierce damage (!) and long range.
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