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Topic Subject: A Guide to the Stymphalian Bird
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posted 17 January 2004 01:40 PM EDT (US)   
A Guide to the Stymphalian Bird

Following my Egyptian Myth Unit Guides last year, I'm going to keep up to date with the new Atlantean Myth Unit Guides.

Now, I know that not everyone is a fan of the Atlanteans, but their Myth Units are pretty decent and definitely stand up against the Greek, Egyptian and Norse counterparts.

When AoM:TT came out, the Atlantean MU that interested me the most was the Stymphalian Bird. The reason for this was in Vanilla AoM (apart from the Nidhogg) the only other flying unit with an attack was the Phoenix. As useful as they are, the other flying MUs (Pegasus, Ravens and Roc) never really interested me. Nidhogg and the Phoenix ruled the skies

Now they've not only added a flying healer, the Caladria, but also a bird with a ranged attack: The Stymphalian Bird. Luckily for the Norse, they can now research the Axe of Muspell Tech making it slightly easier for them to fight flying units.. And if that wasn't enough, a Phoenix Egg now only has 300HP compared to the 1000 it had previously.

With the Phoenix weaker (and let's face it, they were never that strong anyway) it left me with only one flying unit that I would actually consider using aggressively.

And recently, I massed these Birds, and I was quite surprised at how well they did.

Here's their stats:

Cost: 180 Wood, 50 Gold, 25 Favour, 4 Pop spaces
HP: 400 Hack armour: 15%
Speed: 3.60 Pierce armour: 30%
Range: 15 Pierce damage: 11

Notes: 3x Bonus vs MUs, 0.25 vs Heroes. Fires three razor-blade arrows each time it attacks. No MU specific upgrades available.

So in general, much like the Phoenix - Slow, expensive, low armour. Interestingly, even the same HP. But unlike the Phoenix, it has a ranged attack, which is the key to its strength.

Well it's all very well knowing a unit's stats, but that doesn't show how it performs in real-game situations.
Let's just see how long it takes to kill a hoplite.

NOTE: All human and hero units used in the tests have Medium upgrades, Heavy upgrades, Copper armoury upgrades and Bronze armoury upgrades. MU' upgrades will be stated.
All attack rates are tested per hit, not second. However, Stymphalian Bird attacks approximately every 1 second.

Test 1: 1 Stymphalian Bird vs 1 Zeus Hoplite.

Hoplite stats:
HP: 143 Hack armour: 47%
Speed: 4.70 Pierce armour: 31%
Hack damage: 11

Stymphalian Bird does approximately 27 damage to Hoplite per hit
Hoplite dies in 10 seconds. (without moving)

Unsurprisingly, the SB doesn't have 100% accuracy like the Petsuchos, and so sometimes one or two of the razor blades does not hit the hoplite. The graphics are deceptive.

From this test we can see that infantry are no problem to SBs, and have no real hope of surviving if attacked by a flock. Obviously ranged units are a much better option.

Test 2: 1 Stymphalian Bird vs 5 Isis Slingers

Slinger stats:
HP: 91 Hack armour: 31%
Speed: 4.00 Pierce armour: 35%
Pierce damage: 5

Stymphalian Bird does approximately 26 damage to 1 slinger per hit.
1 slinger does 4 damage to Stymphalian Bird per hit.

Stymphalian Bird takes 38 seconds to kill all 5 slingers and has 10 HP left.

Hmmmm, even against weak archers like slingers the Stymphalian Bird does pretty badly. My advice: keep the SB's away from large groups of ANY ranged units; they're too expensive to waste like that.

During these tests, I found out that the SB does a small amount of splash damage sometimes when it attacks. By small I mean 4. And it is VERY rare for it to do splash damage. So unlike the Manticore, it is better to micro the SB to the units you want as the splash damage it may do in groups is very small.

The other thing I found was about the SB's accuracy; not nearly as good as the Petsuchos' 100%, but much better than the Manticore. I'd say probably 65-75% of all attacks managed to hit their target. But unlike the Manticore, the hits that missed usually did not hit another unit causing splash damage.

This makes the SB very useful in some ways, but quite irritating in others. The "lost" hits don't even do any damage to other units, and just disspear into the ground.

Anyway, following this "accuracy" investigation, I decided to test how accurate the SB was against moving units.

Test 3: 1 Stymphalian Bird vs 1 Thor Raiding Cavalry

RC Stats:

HP: 131 Hack armour: 35%
Speed: 6.00 Pierce armour: 47%
Hack damage: 11

SB does approximately 16 damage to RC when still
Cannot hit when moving

Hmmmm, not great against moving units.
Like the Wadjet and other ranged MUs, the SB has trouble against fast units like cavalry and fast MUs

From more tests involving Anubites running in circles and a very dizzy Bird, I discovered that the Stymphalian Bird cannot hit units with a speed equal to or faster than 5.00

This is not really a surprise, but it means that the Birds are definitely better against infantry and archers, particularly infantry when they're engaged in battle.

Another surprise to find was that the Stymphalian Bird defeats every single Heroic MU 1 on 1. Obviously, the non ranged units don't stand a chance, but it also beats all other unupgraded heroic MUs.

The only Heroic Mu it is defeated against is a Petsuchos with the Crocodopolis upgrade. In my tests, I found that the extra range helped, but also the bird was a little inaccurate, so it could win if you're lucky.

Unfortunately, it's not invincible. The SB dies to 1: Arcus Hero, Turma Hero, Heroic Pharoah, Heroic Priest and Greek ranged hero one on one. Not surprisingly as they're heroes, but still not too shabby against other units.

Further Notes:

Stymphalian Birds are not affected by:
Medusa Stone Gaze
Perseus Stone Gaze

Stymphalian Birds ARE affected by:
Mummy's Minion Change
Lampades Chaos

And the moment you've all been waiting for - 1 Stymphalian Bird vs 1 Phoenix. Heroic MU vs Mythic MU.....

*sigh* The Atlanteans rule all. The Stymphalian Bird wins with EASE. Not even close. I feel for the Phoenix, it's the ranged attack that really let's the SB do it's job well.

Suggested Usage:

The Stymphalian Bird, being ranged and flying, has many uses. Support, siege, raiding and scouting all work, but I feel that the SBs best usage is the support infantry, archers and cavalry during large battles. If your opponent focuses all their ranged units on the Birds, then you could swipe them up with regular units by using them as a meatshield.
Saying that, massed they are very powerful, and by attacking infantry units with them, it will only suffer attack from ranged units who must come closer towards it (once again, the SB's range comes into play), which will leave your troops to eat up the archers.
Another suggestion is raiding, although slow, they're quite handy against large numbers of villies, mining for example. Only raid with them if you're sure they won't be attacked by ranged heroes or towers.

Conclusion:

Stymphalian Birds are powerful, don't let their stats fool you. Although expensive in terms of resources and pop, they're massive attack makes up for it - sure 11 may not seem too much, but times it by 3 and you have a strong unit. Have 5 of them and you have a formidable army.

Against Greece: Very plausible - just keep them away from Odysseus, Hippolyta and Chiron.
Against Egypt: Bad idea, those Priests will take it down in no time at all.
Against Norse: Yep, good - watch out for Axe of Muspell, Ballistae and Fire Giants though.
Against Alantis: hmmmmm, not such a good idea. massed hero turmas will be the end of your birds. If there are no turmae around, go for it, just don't be surprised when they arrive.

In general, I was surprised with the Stymphalian Bird; in the editor tests and in game. Much better than I expected, and fun to mass. The sight of them sniping off pesky hoplites is worth their high cost IMO.

Because Rheia and Hyperion's GPs aren't that great, it's likely more and more people will be going Theia and getting Stymphalian Birds.

Whether there are 1, or 10 of them, they'll be flying around, killing Phoenixes and squarking about it too.

EDIT: Which Atlantean Myth Unit would you like me to cover for my next Guide? The mysterious Lampades? The bizarre Dryad? Or maybe the juggernaut Heka-Gigantes? The MU with the most votes will feature in my Atlantean Myth Unit guide next Saturday


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

[This message has been edited by ArtemisChimera (edited 01-18-2004 @ 04:20 AM).]

Replies:
posted 17 January 2004 02:01 PM EDT (US)     1 / 71  
Awesome guide! I never really knew about SB's lack of accuracy against moving targets was so bad. I just assumed they were doing something because they were still whipping feathers at the enemy. Very interesting.

One Atlantean MU I'd like to know more about is the Satyr. I've only used them a few times, but they seem far superior to the Manticore and surprisingly tough.

posted 17 January 2004 02:04 PM EDT (US)     2 / 71  
You should write I guide to the Lampades. People say they are weak, then realise they have their special attack, and then still say they are weak because they cannot use them properly.
The problem with the SB is its inability to outrun units. When I first read about it in an xpack preview, I thought it would have lower attack and higher speed, making it a good raider. Many people use them as raiders still, though the only way to escape counterattacking archer is to fly over an obstacle. So what is the best use for the stymphalian bird? Distracting tactics behind enemy line by flying over what they think are impassable obstactles? Simple ranged support?
That is another thing to add to your guides. Suggested usage.

Peredhil
Arguments are to be avoided;
they are always vulgar and often convincing - Oscar Wilde
posted 17 January 2004 02:06 PM EDT (US)     3 / 71  
Thanks Peredhil, adding now.

ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

posted 17 January 2004 02:17 PM EDT (US)     4 / 71  
Nice Guide! I like it when someone really goes in depth on anything in this game. Very imformative.

ESO: Orion_Zorn

Proud Member of the Orion Clan!

"makes sense because if your running a race against a monkey and you die from a heart attack i don't think it should be a draw. the monkey actaully wins by default" - Sirgrayhorn

posted 17 January 2004 02:25 PM EDT (US)     5 / 71  
The bird kills the phoenix

btw, do that blob thing next


Everyone got AIDS and shit

[This message has been edited by Fwiffo (edited 01-17-2004 @ 02:27 PM).]

posted 17 January 2004 02:43 PM EDT (US)     6 / 71  
Very nice, too bad i never use attie. Can you do one on the automaton or the satyr.
posted 17 January 2004 02:59 PM EDT (US)     7 / 71  
Awesome guide ( as usual) I always look forward to these. It would be cool if your next one was on Heka-Gigantes or Dryads. Keep up the good work!Very nice read, I learn something every time
posted 17 January 2004 03:36 PM EDT (US)     8 / 71  
Too bad, I play Kronos as Atlantean (you remember our game of yesterday ).
Those birds excel indeed in killing goldmining villagers. Send 3 of them to a goldmine, and if it is not protected by a tower or a castle, you will kill at least 5 before the enemy retreats them. Super raiding guys!

btw: I like that tiny photo.


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Water_Wizard --> water_wizard@hotmail.com
Current Project: Becoming the Number 1

[This message has been edited by Ocean Wizard (edited 01-17-2004 @ 03:44 PM).]

posted 17 January 2004 03:50 PM EDT (US)     9 / 71  

Quote:

Which Atlantean Myth Unit would you like me to cover for my next Guide?

I always find it hard to use Heka giants correctly.

Maybe you could take a look at those and come up with some usefull stuff


TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
posted 17 January 2004 03:52 PM EDT (US)     10 / 71  
Awesome guide. Me and my Stymphalian Birds have never been closer. Your next guide(s) should compare myth units that you must choose from when advancing an age. Such as when going to classic with Hades should it be Minotaurs or Cyclops and Prometheuss or Automations etc. Or even compare that minor gods themselves including techs and god powers. Anyway keep up the good work.
posted 17 January 2004 03:53 PM EDT (US)     11 / 71  
Stymph birds are the best raiders in the game, especially vs. norse. Just kill the ox-cart, if you force him into parking a ranged hero or several towers near every gold mine then the stymph bird paid for itself without even attacking.
posted 17 January 2004 04:00 PM EDT (US)     12 / 71  
They're also very good vs Greek. Greeks only have one ranged hero and it can't be everywhere.

ESO nick: NerVe_Pierce
Proud member of NerVe Clan
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
posted 17 January 2004 04:44 PM EDT (US)     13 / 71  
Very good guide but as requested by that one person could i do the guide on the argus?

A paltry man that is of poor mind is he who mocks all things.
posted 17 January 2004 04:50 PM EDT (US)     14 / 71  
Ok, I see what you are doing, writing guides for the lame civs and how to make them even better, good idea. In my opinion, this is the most overpowered unit in the game.

Cicero_
The great numbers in which you are here met this day, O Romans, and this assembly, greater than, it seems to me, I ever remember, inspires me with both an exceeding eagerness to defend the republic and with a great hope of relenquishing it.
-Cicero's Fourth Philippic [106 B.C.-43 B.C.]
posted 17 January 2004 05:27 PM EDT (US)     15 / 71  
Man, don't you OP people ever get tired of whining?

Thanks for the good work, ArtemisChimera.

posted 17 January 2004 05:29 PM EDT (US)     16 / 71  

Quote:

Ok, I see what you are doing, writing guides for the lame civs and how to make them even better, good idea.

No.... I did Egyptian ones because the Egyptian Myth Units are my favourite and I used to play with them most of the time.
And now I'm doing Atlanteans because I like their MUs.
The reason I haven't done Norse or Greek MUs is because I don't play Norse anymore, and the Greek ones are pretty basic.

EDIT: Also, how would this make the Atlanteans better? Sure it might get people to try using different units and strats, but surely that's a good thing. Any type of diversity is more interesting than Kronos rushes or prometheans...

Thanks everyone else for the support. Here's the results so far for which MU people want to see next (I have taken everyone's first request):

Promethean -
Caladria -
Servant -
Carnivora -
Automaton - 1
Satyr - 1
Behemoth -
Dryad -
Argus - 2
Heka-Gigantes - 2
Lampades - 1


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

[This message has been edited by ArtemisChimera (edited 01-17-2004 @ 05:33 PM).]

posted 17 January 2004 05:33 PM EDT (US)     17 / 71  
I said i'd read it on ESO, and i did

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posted 17 January 2004 05:45 PM EDT (US)     18 / 71  
VERY GOOD GUIDE. Thanks ill make sure to keep the birds away from slingers and such. very good Job. Yea a lapade guide would be very interesting to see.

AOM Titan Info.
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ESO : Blunt_69 aka CV_KiNGPiN
posted 17 January 2004 05:58 PM EDT (US)     19 / 71  
Guys, it was clearly a joke, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings because you didn't understand notice the, .

Cicero_
The great numbers in which you are here met this day, O Romans, and this assembly, greater than, it seems to me, I ever remember, inspires me with both an exceeding eagerness to defend the republic and with a great hope of relenquishing it.
-Cicero's Fourth Philippic [106 B.C.-43 B.C.]
posted 17 January 2004 06:08 PM EDT (US)     20 / 71  
ArtemisChimera,

Nicely done, thank you.

I would like to put my vote in for a guide on the Dryad's.


FAILURE is not an option, it comes bundled with the software.
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work ?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work ?"
The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost ?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.
posted 17 January 2004 06:21 PM EDT (US)     21 / 71  
satyr

(-speaker-)
:unsure:
posted 17 January 2004 08:54 PM EDT (US)     22 / 71  
nice guide, but it is disturbing to see that a SB will beat a mystical MU...and i vote for the hega-giganties

Sane and the Second Army's Coming
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posted 17 January 2004 10:34 PM EDT (US)     23 / 71  
Nice guide!

Against Norse and Greeks: Note that ranged myth units can really hurt Stymphalian Birds. Both the Troll and the Centaur get bonus damage vs myth units. The Troll also has a lot of pierce armor - basically a group of 3-4 trolls can kill a Nidhogg.

Also, in general: all flying myth units are weak against towers. Towers get like a 2x bonus against them (maybe more). Basically don't send your birds near someone's town if they have towers, although they may seem good for a surprise attack on their farming/woodcutting, they will die very fast.

Finally, the best use of the birds IMO is against groups of gold miners. You said a bird kills a Hoplite in 10 seconds, so it'll kill a villager quite a bit faster. Also, the splash damage has a fairly decent role here because the villagers are so close up.


Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
posted 17 January 2004 10:46 PM EDT (US)     24 / 71  
Pretty good guide, I didn't know that they were THAT good.

Who Cares?
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Never ignore a gut feeling, but never believe that it's enough
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together...
posted 17 January 2004 10:48 PM EDT (US)     25 / 71  
Awesome post. I vote for dryads. Mmmmm no pop and no favour.....drool.
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